Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for the long delay. The purpose of the second session is to discuss the issue of traffic management, congestion and public safety at College Green, Dublin. The initiative has attracted much public comment since the commencement of Luas services in this area of the capital city and there has been much commentary on the issues of traffic management, congestion, public safety, overcrowding on the Luas and plans for a pedestrianised plaza on College Green.

I welcome Deputy Noel Rock who is a new member of the committee. I also welcome our guests: Mr. Owen Keegan, chief executive officer, Dublin City Council; Mr. Brendan O'Brien, head of technical services; Mr Ray Coyne, chief executive officer, Dublin Bus; Mr. Peter Lunden-Welden, managing director, Transdev; Mr. Conor Faughnan, director of consumer affairs, AA Ireland; Mr. Barry Aldworth, AA Ireland; Mr. Joe Herron, president, Irish Taxi Federation; and Mr. Gerard Macken, chairman, Taxi Alliance of Ireland.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. Faughnan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Conor Faughnan:

AA Ireland has grown from being Ireland’s premier motoring organisation into one of its leading consumer service businesses. It provides emergency rescue services for people in the home and on the road, as well as insurance for more than 200,000 customers. It specialises in home, motor and travel insurance and attends in the region of 130,000 car breakdowns every year, 80% of which are fixed on the spot. It is also a campaigning organisation. From its heritage of representing motorists to its 21st century role, the AA researches and champions consumer needs. It employs 550 people across Ireland in its growing team. It has its headquarters in central Dublin where it has approximately 400 staff. It has been in the broader College Green area since its foundation more than 100 years ago.

The College Green traffic management issue has received a great deal of attention recently because of the opening of the Luas cross-city line in December. The arrival of Luas trams into the mix has revealed how unsustainable the arrangement is, but the traffic problems on College Green date back further than that. In June 2009 a rush hour ban on private cars using College Green was introduced. Almost a decade later we are still talking about traffic chaos at that location. The AA has made the point previously that it frustrates motorists when they find themselves being blamed by default for every planning and transport error, as if the sole cause of the city's problems was selfish motorists who are too snobby to use public transport. All of the evidence we have demonstrates that the opposite is the case. Given good public transport services, no motorist has to be forced to use them and no driver chooses Dublin traffic jams if he or she can avoid it. The "selfish lazy motorist" is a fiction; a pantomime villain that Dublin City Council and others choose to blame instead of addressing their own failings. The traffic problems on College Green deprive the council of that excuse. Cars have been gone for almost a decade, but the traffic jams are worse than ever. Bizarrely, the choice now seems to be to blame taxis, which does not make sense. There is no room for both buses and trams on College Green at current and future Luas frequencies. As the tram tracks are not going to be moved, the buses will have to. This needs to be done now or we will be complaining about delays for years to come. Provision of the College Green plaza will certainly require buses to be removed. This could have been foreseen and perhaps there are some justified criticisms in that regard, but that is not important; what is more important is getting it right for the future. Most citizens support the concept of the College Green plaza and when it happens, a change in the traffic arrangements will be required.

The primary users of the existing space are the five main transport modes: the Luas, Dublin Bus, taxi drivers, cyclists and pedestrians. The latter two are modes of transport we should encourage. In particular, cyclists have reported College Green as being problematic. In recent months taxi drivers have seen themselves being pushed into the firing line. A ban on the use of taxis in the area is being heralded as the solution, but we need to face reality.

Taxis are public transport and are very important, especially for tourists and business visitors to the city. In any case, we do not believe the impact of taxis at that location is the primary cause of the problem.I repeat that we cannot accommodate buses and trams across the pinch point at Trinity College. The trams cannot move so the buses will have to move, even if Dublin Bus does not like it. Pushing the taxis out will make little or no difference. They will have to leave anyway when the pedestrianised plaza is introduced so they may as well get used to that idea now.

The AA has often spoken in praise of Dublin Bus and I will do so again on the record at this forum. It is the mainstay of our public transport system and the city would be lost without it. Dublin Bus is arguably under-respected and it is certainly under-funded. It deserves greater support. Even so, Dublin Bus must accept the reality that buses cannot stay on College Green. As it stands, too many routes pass through College Green and there is no good reason for that. Not everyone needs to get off a bus at Trinity College.

AA Roadwatch obviously observes traffic every day. One can see queues of buses waiting to access College Street during peak rush hour, from 8:20am to 9:20am. It is not uncommon to see literally dozens of buses stuck in the queue with nowhere to go. College Street is also very vulnerable. It would not take much to block that location, causing tremendous delays to the buses and to the Luas. From wherever our fascination with as many bus routes as possible serving College Green came, we now need to move beyond it. We also need to think beyond the day-to-day commuter. We know we need to make public transport journey times better, especially for commuters. Important as that is, however, it is not the only measure of success in a city and participants in the debate, including Dublin City Council, often seem to forget this. Too often the measure of success seems to be how many cars were forced out rather than how much business is brought in. Dublin needs to succeed not only for its commuters. Tourists are mentioned a lot but it is local people and local businesses who deserve more support. Dublin city’s traders feel they have been ignored in this debate and I have some sympathy for them in that regard. Measures designed to make Dublin hostile to cars have been given disproportionate time and attention while measures to support Dublin’s businesses do not get anything like the same amount of air time. Retail customer footfall has not recovered in the city’s shopping streets since the financial crisis. It has fully recovered in places like Dundrum, Blanchardstown and Liffey Valley but not in the city centre. Grafton Street looks greatly diminished and is quite a distance from the prestige retail street it once was. When we are thinking about the commercial heart of our city, we need to think not only about transport - important as that is - but also about business and general commerce in the city centre. It would be of poor comfort to us all if we completely solved Dublin's traffic problems but in so doing we killed the commercial life at the heart of the city.

College Green is not the only traffic black spot in Dublin. We need to take a more holistic view of transport in the city. We had major delays on the M50 again this morning, which is almost an everyday occurrence. We need to thoroughly review how we are managing transport and demand in Dublin city. In so doing, however, we must not take as our only measure of success how well we manage to make buses and Luas trams move. We must also remember why we want them to move and think about the commercial heart of the city.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Faughnan. Before I ask our next guest to speak, I remind members and guests to turn off their mobile phones. I now call on Mr. Owen Keegan, chief executive of Dublin City Council.

Mr. Owen Keegan:

I thank the Chairman. Dublin City Council, DCC, welcomes the opportunity to address the committee on the issue of traffic congestion at College Green. Since the launch of Luas Cross City, LCC, on 9 December 2017, there has been significant congestion at College Green which has impacted adversely on the journey times of buses and taxis travelling between O'Connell Street and Nassau Street and on roads that access this corridor, especially during the morning peak traffic period. In addition, during the initial weeks of LCC operation, in an effort to keep traffic moving, pedestrian priority at College Green was greatly reduced with the result that average pedestrian waiting times more than doubled.

The impact of the introduction of LCC on bus journey times for southbound buses travelling through College Green, that is, between O’Connell Street and Nassau Street, is set out in the paper submitted to the committee. If one takes the worst hour, between 9 a.m. and 10 a.m., we estimate that before the introduction of LCC that journey would have taken ten minutes on average but after its introduction the same journey was taking 23 minutes.

It is important to note that major traffic management changes were implemented in the city centre area by DCC prior to the launch of LCC on 9 December 2017 to facilitate its operation. These changes included the introduction of double bus lanes on stretches of the north and south quays, a ban on general traffic turning right from the north quays onto O’Connell Bridge and a range of junction and traffic signal changes. These changes had a positive impact on bus and taxi journey times.

It was always recognised by the council that College Green, which has only one lane in each direction, would not be able to accommodate the same number of buses and taxis following the introduction on LCC. In order to address this issue, the council developed a separate proposal for a new civic plaza at College Green, which provides for the elimination of all traffic through College Green on an east-west axis. Under the proposal, the current complex sequence of traffic signals would be replaced with a single pedestrian crossing from the front entrance of Trinity College across to the new plaza. The plaza proposal would have allowed taxis to use the high quality north-south public transport corridor. In my paper I have given an example of the conflicting traffic movements on College Green that are the cause of the congestion problems. The council is of the view that the plaza proposal, with the elimination of east-west traffic, removes those traffic conflicts. The council is satisfied that the benefits of the plaza as a civic amenity for pedestrians and in terms of greatly improved bus, tram and taxi traffic flow on a north-south axis through College Green due to the elimination of conflicting traffic movements will far outweigh any negative impacts on those bus and taxi services which will have to divert as a consequence of the elimination of east–west axis traffic through College Green.

The College Green plaza proposal, including the associated traffic management arrangements, was submitted to An Bord Pleanála in May 2016. It had been anticipated that a decision on the proposal would have been made in advance of the opening of LCC. This would have allowed DCC to implement the required traffic management arrangements. Unfortunately, there have been delays in the planning process for the civic plaza development. I have included for member's information a detailed timeline of the planning process. In deference to the separate statutory procedure for the civic plaza proposal and mindful of the threat of legal proceedings from a city centre business group, DCC and the NTA held off making any other traffic changes pending progress on the plaza application. An oral hearing on the application, which had been scheduled for 9 January 2018 was postponed on 4 January 2018. Following this postponement, DCC and the NTA agreed to initiate measures to reduce the volume of traffic travelling through College Green in order to reduce the level of congestion and improve traffic flow.

On Monday 29 January 2018, eight bus routes, which previously travelled through College Green and College Street but did not stop there were re-routed and a further nine Xpresso routes were also re-routed away from that area. The combined effect of these changes has been to reduce the aforementioned 23-minute delay in the worst hour to a 16-minute delay, a significant improvement. While these measures have reduced journey times in the morning peak, it is very clear that a further reduction in the number of vehicles travelling through College Green is required, particularly given the need to accommodate higher frequency and longer LCC services. Following further consultation between DCC, the NTA and Dublin Bus it has been agreed that an additional ten bus services will be re-routed away from College Green, effective from Monday, 5 March. Those measures will be evaluated and if required, DCC will implement further measures in consultation with the relevant parties.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. I now call on Mr. Ray Coyne, chief executive of Dublin Bus, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting me here today. In the past 18 months I have had the privilege of addressing this committee on Bus Átha Cliath's vision for public transport and on the accessibility of our services. I welcome the opportunity to engage with the committee on congestion and its impact on our city.

In October 2016 I outlined to the committee that an efficient public transport system is key to delivering positive economic and social development in our country and in the case of Dublin Bus, to Dublin and its hinterland in particular. An economically vibrant Dublin is also of benefit to the wider economy. In 2017 Dublin Bus carried 139 million customers. We achieved this through strong growth in both our commercial and public service obligation, PSO, network of services. Dublin Bus customers account for 39% of all retail spend in Dublin city and 62% of all public transport users in Dublin are Dublin Bus customers. This demonstrates the importance of the bus as a mode of transport in delivering retail spend into the city centre.

Creating an integrated, customer centric, well-functioning and efficient public transport network will assist in delivering economic benefits. This cannot be achieved in a congested city.

Congestion during the morning and evening peak commute times is a significant problem in Dublin. Our city’s roads are not designed for large volumes of vehicular traffic. There are many users competing for the limited road space available, including private transport, public transport, cyclists, taxis, delivery vehicles and pedestrians. As economic growth continues, congestion levels will further increase unless significant mitigating measures are put in place. Congestion limits a city’s ability to achieve its full potential in economic, environmental, social and cultural areas. Research by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport's economic and financial evaluation unit in 2017 estimated the cost of aggravated congestion across Ireland’s transport system at €350 million per annum and forecasted this to rise to €2 billion per annum by 2033. This is not sustainable for transport operators, Government or the public.

Dublin is positioning itself as a modern European capital and a congested city does not fit with this vision. Our network speed at peak times is in the region of 14 km/h, with substantial variations on all public transport corridors. Despite the significant roll-out of quality bus corridors, private transport remains extremely competitive in terms of journey times to the city, and in many cases is faster than the bus.

A customer-centric public transport system must have, after safety, three basic fundamentals in place. These are frequency of service, reliability of service provision and competitive and consistent journey times. Thereafter, information and price are key for customers. Congestion is the main barrier to achieving all three fundamentals, while also negatively impacting on price.

One of the key advantages of bus transport is the ability to adapt and accommodate additional customer demand more quickly than other modes. This is due to the ease and speed at which Dublin Bus can adjust alignments in keeping with a changing, growing city. The bus network today is far removed from the network that existed prior to 2011 and will continue to evolve in 2018. Similarly, the road infrastructure and priority in the city has also significantly changed over the past two decades. These changes have provided tangible benefits for our customers through increased service levels and reduced subvention requirements, allowing for further reinvestment in service provision.

During the construction phase of Luas cross city, significant adjustments were made to the Dublin Bus network to minimise the impact on our customers and assist in the delivery of Luas cross city. As we transition from construction to operation, Dublin Bus continues to adjust services to benefit our customers, other public transport operators and the city as a whole.

In January 2018, following engagement with the National Transport Authority, NTA, and Dublin City Council, 17 bus routes were realigned to improve congestion levels in the College Green area. Following further engagement between parties and an assessment of current operations, Dublin Bus will realign a further eight routes away from College Green on 5 March, again to enhance the customer experience and to benefit other public transport users and the city.

Unfortunately the customer experience on some journeys continues to be impacted by congestion, which is not confined to College Green. Dublin Bus and the economy are growing strongly but it is vital that we do not leave this recovery at our bus stops and stations. Additional capacity introduced now will benefit our city in the long term and introduce new customers to public transport, mitigating the impact of congestion. This additional capacity must be matched with continuous improvements to on-street priority throughout the network. Failing that we will simply be moving congestion from one area to another, rather than what is intended by recent initiatives, which is improving the operating environment for all users of the city, from pedestrians and cyclists to public and private transport users.

Consistent service delivery in the areas of punctuality and reliability is required to deliver a multi-modal mobility solution for public transport in Ireland. An integrated network of services, information and payment will provide a platform to achieve significant increases in public transport use. A new bus route is proposed to connect Broombridge Luas and train station to Finglas, Ballycoolin and Tyrrelstown, providing alternative transport modes to our customers. The NTA continues to support public transport with increased service frequency at both peak and off-peak times added to our bus network since November 2017. These measures are vital steps in the bid to tackle the congestion currently affecting the city.

Some key decisions will be required to maximise the use of the finite road space in our capital city. Congestion has the potential to stagnate economic activity in the city now and over many years to come. Increasing the use of the public transport network is the best way to tackle congestion. The implementation of further measures that ensure public transport is a better alternative than the car would enhance our ability to tackle congestion. At a minimum, our public transport network speed at peak times must increase from approximately 14 km/h to at least 18 km/h. This will provide for a more efficient public transport network, delivering the key requirements of increased frequency, more reliable services and consistent and fast journey times. With the above improvement in journey times, significant efficiencies would be realised and reinvested in the network, effectively increasing fleet capacity within existing fleet resources. Underpinned by a commitment to multi-year funding, additional current and capital funding would also be required.

The significant challenges experienced in our operating environment have not reduced customer support for public transport. We have increased customer numbers on our services every year since 2013. In December 2017, Dublin Bus recorded double-digit growth on our services. We are already seeing strong growth in 2018 with 6% organic growth achieved in January. The introduction of bus priority measures on the north and south quays and the Rosie Hackett public transport bridge have contributed significantly to our growth figures. The NTA-sponsored BusConnects programme of work will see €750 million invested in the bus network for the greater Dublin area over the next five years, and I welcome the commitment from Government to support this project through the national development plan. BusConnects will significantly enhance the customer experience in the city in the short term, while providing long-term benefits. If all aspects of the NTA’s BusConnects programme are implemented, it will have a beneficial impact on congestion levels.

In the fourth quarter of 2017, Kantar Millward Brown carried out customer satisfaction research on behalf of the NTA. Dublin Bus recorded the highest percentage of customers in the “very satisfied” category, at 54%, with a score of 92% satisfaction overall. This is a wonderful testament to our employees and our stakeholders, who continue to recognise the importance of the bus to the economy. It is also a strong reflection on our service delivery, aided by continuous improvements to bus priority.

Dublin Bus will continue to assist key stakeholders as it seeks to reduce congestion in the city. College Green is one component of this and addressing one area does not readily solve other areas. Having a public transport system that is a better option than owning a car is a vision that is achievable and will enable our city to fulfil its potential in many diverse areas. These include enhanced urban living opportunities, reduced congestion, improved air quality and reduced noise pollution. It will enable the economy to prosper and provide a platform for a vibrant social and cultural city scene. It will increase the capacity to deliver people to and from the city with reduced road space, increase the pedestrian environment in the city and enhance the safety for all road users. Congestion is a barrier to achieving this vision.

The bus is the most flexible mode in delivering significant movement in public transport and will be with us for a long time. It has the potential to drive the growth in public transport in the short to medium term. This will lay the foundations to implement priority measures on key corridors with bus rapid transit, BRT, standards, increased frequency levels on corridors to continue customer growth, and provide the space for the implementation of further light and heavy rail over the medium to long term. Many initiatives announced in the national development plan, Project Ireland 2040, are aligned with this view. We must act now for the future.

Should the committee have any questions I would be happy to take them as they arise.

Mr. Peter Lunden-Welden:

I thank the committee for its invitation to attend today. I am delighted to be here because I have been managing director of Transdev, the Luas operator, since June 2017. I have previous history with Luas and Dublin as I had a small part in the original Luas mobilisation team, as operations manager, back in 2004. I have spent the intervening years as chief executive officer of Seoul Metro in South Korea.

For the benefit of the committee members I would like to give you a brief overview of Luas and Transdev's involvement with it since the launch in 2004. Luas is a state-of-the-art light rail transit system that provides an accessible, attractive and unique mode of public transportation in Dublin. Transdev is contracted by the National Transport Authority and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, to operate the Luas. The contractual arrangement within Luas effectively requires the NTA and TII to provide the infrastructure and the trams and Transdev to deliver the operation using these assets. Transdev is a worldwide organisation with expertise in operating transport systems, including light rail, metro, buses, shuttles and taxis. I wish to stress that we consider Luas in Dublin as one of our flagship light rail operations. Transdev has been operating Luas since the commencement of services in 2004 and successfully renewed the operating contract in 2014. In 2005, the first year of full operation, Luas carried approximately 22 million passengers. In 2017 Luas carried 37.6 million.

This increase emphasises the remarkable success the light rail system has had in the Dublin area. In fact, there has been a further 16% increase in passengers from January 2017 to January 2018.

We believe that light rail is an integral part of transportation in Dublin. Transport planning is critical to achieving growth in public transportation and crucial for the medium and long-term development of Dublin city. The definitive plan, design and construction of the College Green and how it is integrated within a functional Dublin city is not within Transdev's scope or control. Luas is only one factor of this complex equation and we work in partnership with all the city stakeholders, including Dublin Bus, NTA, TII and DCC, to achieve the optimal travel times around College Green and across the red and green Luas lines.

However, crossing Dublin city centre in a tram linking north to south is a transport option to be welcomed. The challenges that are being posed require some refinement and alignment for all stakeholders to address. While there remains some issues at present, I am convinced these issues can be addressed soon.

This concludes my short statement. I also am happy to take questions from the committee.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Lunden-Welden. I now call Mr. Joe Herron, president of the Irish Taxi Drivers Federation.

Mr. Joe Herron:

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to speak. I will be brief.

It would appear to us that when any member of Dublin City Council speaks about the congestion at College Green, he or she seems to be of the opinion that the simple solution is to ban taxis and buses from the area. We believe this means that those who want to go east or west are not considered. There also are a considerable number of hotels and many other businesses that need to be accessed by taxis in the area on both sides of College Green.

It is grossly unfair to expect people using taxis to pay extra in both time and taxi fares to make a large diversion to get from, say, O'Connell Street to Dame Street or vice versa. They might try removing the buses from the area and allow taxis use it, as they are the only door-to-door service, and see how that would work. That is all I would have to say on the matter but I will certainly take any questions afterwards.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Gerard Macken want to make a comment?

Mr. Gerard Macken:

Yes, a short one. I thank the Chairman and committee for inviting me here.

Our group, working in conjunction with the Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann, TTnH, the DTA and Dublin Airport taxi association, has had numerous meetings with Dublin City Council and the national authority in respect of College Green. At our last meeting, we were promised an impact study on taxis within the city area. The Lord Mayor, plus Mr. Brendan O'Brien and Mr. Dick Brady from Dublin City Council, were in attendance.

We looked at the proposal to reintroduce the left-hand turn onto Dawson Street because at present we have to take an alternative route off Dawson Street, onto Molesworth Street, Lincoln Place and down onto Pearse Street. Taxis are part of the National Transport Authority. We have to run a meter and give a fair account of our fares by taking the shortest possible route. We are serving the hotels within the area and we need the shortest route to do so. I am available to take any questions.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Members are conscious of the procedure. The first to lead off for the Oireachtas Members is Deputy Rock.

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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I did not realise I was leading off but I am delighted to do so.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rock is a star leading the Oireachtas.

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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That remains the case all right. I thank the Vice Chairman for his warm welcome to the committee as well.

First, I welcome the witnesses today. This issue of congestion at College Green is probably the most discussed issue right now in Dublin and I hope the proposals that were announced last night will go some way towards improving it.

My first question is for Mr. Keegan. His presentation here shows some data on the recent changes that have taken place with the 18 bus routes that were rerouted. It shows a decrease in the amount of time, particularly in the 9 a.m. to 10 a.m. time slot. Has Mr. Keegan any projections on what changes to the timings will be made as a consequence of the further ten reroutings that were announced last night?

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We will take a round of questions first.

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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Pardon me. I am used to the Committee of Public Accounts format, where we go back and forth. My apologies. Is it that the Vice Chairman wants to take a round of questions?

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. No problem at all.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Has Deputy Rock more questions?

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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I do indeed. Is Mr. Keegan of the view that the reroutings will make the requisite difference or that further changes will be required in the future? Can he provide the committee with the data subsequent to the first week of operation? I believe it comes into effect on 5 March. I would be interested, as I imagine would other members of the committee and, indeed, other Dublin Deputies, in seeing those data. I have other questions but will we stick with Mr. Keegan for now?

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We can take them all.

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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I have a few for Mr. Ray Coyne as well. Mr. Coyne mentioned the 40L bus routes, which is of interest to my constituency and to me. I am probably in a unique position in that I am the only Deputy who takes Dublin Bus every day to get to work. In fact, the No. 11 handily drops me right outside the door and despite going through College Green, is a great service. The 40L bus route has been mooted for a little while. I, first, became aware of it in December and campaigned for it before that. Do we have an indication as to when it will be introduced, what the exact route will be, what the frequency of the service will be and how it will be promoted? I am conscious that sometimes new routes - this one will be beneficial and will be exactly what we want to see, which is integrated public transport between Dublin Bus and Transdev which is great - are not promoted correctly and die on their feet. I am not saying that is the recent experience but certainly in the past, that has happened. I would be curious to hear about the promotion piece in particular as well and when it will be introduced because we could be promoting it right here and right now if we had a date for introduction.

The city centre fare was abolished recently. What was the rationale behind that? We may come back later to Mr. Coyne's own views on whether the rerouting of ten buses at College Green will make a substantive difference to the experience there.

Finally, for Transdev, I seek Mr. Lunden-Welden's views on what has been proposed in the Project Ireland 2040 plan regarding the potential expansion of the operations, in particular to Finglas, which I understand is to be the prioritised line of the four potential expanded lines. I would be curious to hear whether Transdev has ongoing consultation with the NTA in that regard.

Similarly, what are Transdev's views on O'Connell Street and the Luas operations there? With regard to the current operation, it goes down Marlborough Street-----

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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May I interrupt Deputy Rock for a second? He is going through the whole Dublin plan but the focus of this meeting is the issue of College Green.

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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This last question links to that, to be fair. To get the optimum operation out of the Luas across College Green, I note many trams are practically empty going south from Marlborough Street. Pedestrians, when they are getting off Dublin Bus services on O'Connell Street, do not have sight of the tram stops, the real-time information and when a Luas is coming. One would not necessarily walk down to Marlborough Street speculatively to get on a tram and then have to walk back to get a bus. What are Mr. Lunden-Welden's thoughts on whether there should be real-time signs installed on O'Connell Street to get the most out of College Green? Right now, there is congestion on College Green but we may not be getting the optimum number of passengers going south. I have certainly noticed that and I imagine the data bear it out as well. There is a great deal of congestion going north, and also southbound from Dawson Street, but maybe overall Luas overcrowding is a topic for another day.

Finally, I wish to hear Mr. Lunden-Welden's thoughts on the proposed changes that have been made by Dublin Bus and whether Transdev feels that this will go some way to addressing the congestion at College Green.

John O'Mahony (Fine Gael)
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I will be brief and will defer to all of my colleagues, who are probably affected by this seven days a week. I want to give the outside perspective on some of the points that have been made.

It looks like more planning or agreement should have gone into this in advance rather than now. I will ask everybody a global question.

Is it possible to tinker with this in some way to solve it or is a more dramatic intervention needed? Second, listening to what the two taxi representatives said, it is reasonable that they would be able to service hotels and so on in that area. In other words, can a solution be got without major alterations to what the witnesses are talking about or are these just teething problems?

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The focus of attention is College Green, and we are talking about the possibility of moving bus routes. Some of them have been redirected already. I looked at the figure for the number of buses and the areas from where they are originating and they include Monkstown, Dún Laoghaire, Bray, Ashtown, Clondalkin, Dundrum, Lucan, Blanchardstown, Malahide, Balbriggan, Swords, Leixlip, Maynooth and Celbridge. Some of them are city speeds. That tells us that it is not just buses that are being discommoded; it is people.

Part of the reason some of the termini were selected was because there is an inadequate amount of kerb space for buses in the city, so people have got used to this route across city. As far as I can recall, when the Luas line was being selected, Dublin Bus had a lot to say about this being a potential problem for it. This is not a teething problem, therefore; it is something that was foreseen.

What modelling are the various organisations doing, even at this late stage, to do it not just on a piecemeal basis but to examine the likely scenarios if some of the buses are redirected? It is very difficult for people to get used to different routes. They will be fixed on a public transport route. They select it because it gets them to their destination, and the destination is not always a terminus; sometimes it is somewhere in between. That discommoding of a very large population that, generally, is on the periphery of the city is likely to lose market share for Dublin Bus. What modelling is being done to deal with that?

Going back to the Dublin transportation initiative, Luas would have been part of that, but so also would other initiatives, for example, the DART underground. In the provision of public transport, is there surface room for what we need if those type of alternatives to public transport are not provided?

With regard to Dublin City Council, Dublin is our capital city. I represent Kildare North, but I am a Dubliner who has gone in the other direction. I do not have anything negative to say about Dublin, but there is a mindset that is about looking at the city centre as though it is a functional area as opposed to it being a capital city that has, whether we like it or not, a sizeable amount of the population in the greater Dublin area that requires to be taken into account when changes in the city centre are being considered. What networking is done with regard to the greater Dublin area? The College Green issue definitely translates as though it is a city centre issue but if we are to discommoding people, we are discommoding people who are travelling into the city rather than people who are living in it. What networking is done to consider people from outside of the functional area of Dublin?

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I will call Deputy John Lahart who will be followed by Deputy Eamon Ryan.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I warmly welcome all the attendees. I appreciate them giving their time here and the contributions they have made. There is no action without an equal and opposite reaction is a dictum that can be applied to this issue, but we have to live with it. We have to be practical in terms of what has happened. In many ways, in terms of what has been happening in recent months and also the witnesses' presentations today, for Dublin Bus and the taxi drivers it is a little bit like a variation of the prodigal son. Taxis and Dublin Bus, and I thank them on behalf of Dubliners for keeping the city moving, particularly in the midst of all the Luas cross city construction, have been the loyal, hard-working labourers serving in the vineyard for the past 40 years. Luas is the new kid on the block. It has a big advantage. It has rails in the ground and it is not going anywhere, and that is reflected in the contributions. I warmly welcome Luas and Luas cross city. Luas cross city is the only immovable force; it is the only immovable object. We have to accept that everybody else will have to be flexible because Luas is not going anywhere. Ultimately, despite all the criticisms that have been made of it, any new transport initiative will have to be given a period of time to bed in. I believe everybody accepts that, but I have questions for Transdev Ireland. It is solving some of the problems with real time and so on, so I will give it the benefit of the doubt on that. Passenger safety is a real concern, as is overcrowding. The witnesses might address that briefly.

I do not know, but I accept Mr. Owen Keegan's bona fides as chief executive officer of Dublin City Council on this issue. It is an elected body that has decided to pedestrianise a plaza that is part of the centre traffic spine of the city. I accept that is what it intends to do, and I believe we have to bite the bullet on that. We cannot have a lot of public transport moving through that space if it is to be a pedestrian plaza. I am sorry for the clichés, but we cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs. I am assuming there are things that can be done, and that need to be done, to alleviate the situation for taxi drivers in the context of that. One of those is that taxis, which are an essential part of public transport, ought to have access to some of the bus corridors to which they do not currently have access. I have noticed that in terms of some of the routes taxi drivers have to take around the core of the city, the amount they add to a fare is considerable. For example, their inability to access the bus corridor on St. Stephen's Green does not make much sense to me. There are a number of things that need to be done regarding public transport.

For Dublin Bus, the witnesses are all disparate voices here. When did they all last meet together as a group to discuss this issue, or did they meet? Has the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport called them and all the other stakeholders in to discuss it and to hear their individual views, not just on the plaza issue but the Luas cross city issue? Where are the representatives of the Garda traffic corps, which has an essential role to play in this, particularly in the bedding in of the Luas?

The central spine of Dublin Bus has been taken away. As Deputy Catherine Murphy said, Dublin Bus is serving the people who are not served by Luas, DART or trains whose landing points and terminal points when they come into the city are getting further away from where they used to be able to locate and get off. There are certain issues on which we have to make decisions. Luas cross city is here. It is immovable, so everything else will have to work around it in terms of transport solutions. The longer trams are longer because they have bigger capacity. It is too late now, but what particular consideration was given to the fact that O'Connell Bridge is 45 m long and the trams are 55 m long?

The tram will always have its way but, as far as I understand, at peak time the tram will cross the bridge every three minutes. It takes 50 seconds to 90 seconds to cross the bridge and it must clear it, which leaves a minute and a half for taxis, bikes, commercial vehicles, buses and everyone else coming up and down the quays. The city manager must provide us with some kind of insight into this. If 300 buses are taken out of College Green every hour, 3,000 every day, where will they go? We do not want this patchwork quilt of responses. This is not directed at the chief executive. He is only part of the strategy, and I accept that. It may take a little time - for example, six months - to come up with an overall master plan. A point I made yesterday is that the transport map of Dublin is being rewritten and redrawn before our eyes and this cannot be done in a patchwork way; it must be done in a comprehensive way. The witnesses may have to take some time to do this in order that they and all other stakeholders come together, except Luas because it is immovable and everything now must work around it. Luas is in a very happy position and it is justified because of its passenger-carrying capacity, but Dublin Bus's passenger-carrying capacity is significantly in excess of that of Luas.

My big bugbear is that there is no one person accountable, elected or appointed who can pull all these voices together in one room. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport can, but there is no Dublin authority that can pull together every single one of the witnesses' organisations as stakeholders in this debate. They will have to be pulled together regularly over the next year or so in order to thrash this out, sort it out and come up with a solution. This is not London. We do not have an underground. I hugely, wholeheartedly welcome Luas cross-city but I am thinking of the emasculation of taxis and Dublin Bus from the spine of the city. Anyone could have seen that this was coming. Again, this is not aimed at Mr. Keegan. He is just part of the tapestry of solutions. The National Transport Authority is not represented here today even though it is the responsible body. I think Dublin Bus is getting the brunt of all this and sucking up an awful lot in this process. In fairness to Dublin Bus, it is adapting, but someone must pull all this together. Dublin Bus cannot be penalised regarding all the big gaps of the population of Dublin that are not served by rail of whatever variety. Dublin City Council is just in charge of the city, and this is impacting the suburbs and the other four Dublin local authority areas. No one has a big plan. No one even has a big plan as to how to devise a big plan. Dubliners and Dublin commuters deserve much better than this. We need someone to pull ideas together and come up with a vision that everyone can buy into.

I have a question directed at Transdev. It concerns serious overcrowding and security. Does Mr. Lunden-Welden agree with the notion of public transport police, particularly regarding the city centre, because the kind of passenger-carrying capacity Transdev has? I have one final question on behalf of all the shift workers who either come into the city to work or live in the city and go out into the suburbs to work. They rely after a particular time exclusively either on their own cars or on taxis to get themselves to work. Does Transdev have any plans regarding Luas cross-city to expand the hours to serve an increasingly mobile population?

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Before I move on to Deputy Ryan, to clarify, the NTA was not invited. This was an oversight following a previous discussion as to who should be invited. I just wish to excuse the NTA. In fairness, it is not its fault a representative is not here.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The biggest beast has been left out of the conversation, but I thank the Chairman for his clarification.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am only Vice Chairman, but-----

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Deputy Catherine Murphy and I soldiered together on the Dublin transport advisory committee in the mid-1990s.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The early 1990s.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We have been talking about this subject since. I was very involved in the Platform for Change plan in the late 1990s and early 2000s, up to 2001. I remember with such clarity discussing the options and coming down on the metro because of the clear modelling which showed that if we did not do so, we would not be able to make the numbers work and would have bus jams on D'Olier Street, and, hey presto, we now have bus jams on D'Olier Street. This is not new but we must sort it out now big time and quickly.

I commend Mr. Conor Faughnan. I agree with the simple analysis he gave. He said one cannot accommodate the buses and trams across the pinch point at Trinity College. The trams cannot move so the buses will have to. It is a tough reality, but he hit the nail on the head when he said that. I wish to ask three questions, if I may, and I appreciate the opportunity to contribute. First, I agree with what was said about Dublin Bus. I am not surprised about what Mr. Coyne said about Dublin Bus's customer satisfaction ratings because that is my experience of talking to friends, family and others. Dublin Bus services have improved. The Wi-Fi services, the real-time information, just the overall service in Dublin Bus is good in very difficult circumstances, and we commend the company on that. However, I have a real concern. We had the chairman of TII before the committee earlier. I know TII is not in charge of the BusConnects project but, informally chatting to him afterwards, we kind of agreed nothing seems to be happening. Where are we in delivering the big BusConnects project, which might help us to ramp up and improve Dublin Bus services? When can we expect them to go to tender and come into operation?

Second, regarding light rail, I know my colleague, Deputy Catherine Martin, was asking for a representative of Transdev to come before the committee so I am very glad Mr. Lunden-Welden was able to come today to respond to these questions. I have two immediate questions. I am a light rail customer and, like so many customers on the green line, I now face a situation whereby three, four or five trams pass by before I can get on one. It is like the Tokyo underground at present at Milltown, Beechwood, Windy Arbour and any of the other stations. We are squeezing on like the Tokyo underground. In the old days there were photos of people pushing passengers onto the trains. That is what we need. In these circumstances, what is Mr. Lunden-Welden's advice to someone in a wheelchair who is looking to access light rail on pretty much any Luas service, particularly at peak hour on any inbound or outbound train? We heard from Dublin Bus of the concern about public transport speeds being 40 km/h. I was talking this morning to a friend who goes from Broombridge to Adelaide Road every day, a perfect customer for Luas cross city. He says he is quicker walking from Broombridge to Adelaide Road. I am interested to know Luas's times, particularly because Mr. Keegan said in his presentation that we may have to look at losing some of the priority for Luas in the city centre. Given it is so slow, it seems, and the current situation, I am interested in Mr. Lunden-Welden's views on losing priority in terms of Luas's speeds.

Finally, I know Dublin City Council is hampered here because it is operating within the constraints given that we did not proceed as we should have done with the metro. I agree fully with what was said earlier about the need for a mayor for Dublin. My experience of those 25 years - I do not know about Deputy Murphy's - is that inevitably there was inter-agency rivalry and too many different authorities. We really need someone to pull this together. I am very interested to hear from Mr. Keegan some specific details on cycling because I am also a cyclist. Who designed the cycling elements of this scheme? It is not just College Green; what has happened in Stephen's Green is a travesty for cyclists and a missed opportunity to provide all sorts of counter-flow and other measures. I have several friends who, particularly at College Green, have come off their bicycles, some with broken arms, others with various other injuries. I myself have cycled on College Green. I am a very experienced cyclist, very comfortable on streets and very well able to cycle in Dublin but I am terrified coming from Pearse Street direction going right up Dame Street. It is incredible that anyone designed that facility with cyclists in mind. Cycling is part of the solution here. The experience we have had when we put in high-quality cycling corridors, like along the Grand Canal, is, I understand, an almost immediate 50% increase in the cycling numbers. The answer to this problem we have of how to get everyone into the city and around is surely to provide the key cycling networks we need such as the Liffey Valley cycle route. The canal cycle route has been upgraded further and works have been carried out on the College Green plaza. Does Mr. Keegan have the necessary funding to make this happen?

Does he have the necessary staff resources, the design teams and the in-house expertise to address the fact that cyclists are completely forgotten about in the Dublin transport system? We are the most vulnerable but are being left behind and this has to stop. Dublin can and should be a brilliant cycling city and there is huge pent-up demand for someone brave enough to create a safe space on our streets.

If we followed Mr. Conor Faughnan's advice and did what the city council has always planned to do, which is to do the plaza with the introduction of the cross-city Luas on College Green, is there a preferred route? Has a decision been made as to whether the reorientation of buses would mean using Parliament Street, Christchurch or Westland Row? I know that Dublin Bus has to ensure that this works with BusConnects but I think it can do so, given the priority afforded to buses on the quays. Where is the alternative north-south crossing point in the city centre? Garrett FitzGerald was right that Trinity College presents a fundamental problem in the middle of the city and limits the scope for crossings. How do we cross over if we do not cross College Green?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise to witnesses for being absent for the past few minutes but we were accepting a petition relating to a minimum passing distance for cyclists of 1.5 m. Cycling can play a huge role in preventing congestion. The number of people who cycle in our capital city has doubled in the past two years but the funding allocated by the Department for cycling projects has decreased by almost 50%. I am interested in what Mr. Keegan has to say about the capacity to roll out a greater cycling infrastructure in the capital.

Mr. Faughnan was right that congestion is not exclusive to the Luas crossover although it has compounded the congestion problem. Congestion has been getting worse in recent years and there has been a lack of preparedness on the part of key stakeholders in regard to the crossover. We are failing our citizens miserably and robbing them of their lives as they are spending more and more time commuting to and from work. It affects other local authority areas in Dublin and not just the city centre, and it also affects areas such as my own constituency of Longford-Westmeath. People are now getting up at 5.30 a.m. to come to work in the city and they do not get home until after 7.30 p.m. or 8 p.m. They do not get to see their children getting up in the morning and they do not get to put them to bed in the evening.

Mr. Keegan said he had hoped that An Bord Pleanála would have made a decision on the College Green crossover before the opening of the cross-city line but why had Dublin City Council not submitted its application in plenty of time, to enable it to get a decision? Instead, it lived on a wing and a prayer and it hoped that An Bord Pleanála would reply in time. This is a massive investment of public money in infrastructure in the capital city. Mr. Keegan also said he did not have responsibility for the rerouting of buses and that is correct, as the NTA has that responsibility. There is a lack of joined-up thinking and it is not okay for one arm of the State to blame another arm of the State for the fact that this has not been done. Planning permission was submitted for the Luas cross-city in 2010, almost eight years ago, and it did not come up overnight like a mushroom. I am sure the plans were prepared many years in advance of 2010 but we have not responded correctly at all. In correspondence sent to us two days ago, eight additional bus routes were referred to as being rerouted but last night the news stated that ten were being rerouted. It appears that it is being made up as we go along. Why was it eight on Monday but ten on Tuesday evening?

There is a finite amount of road space in the area of which we are speaking. Is a decision going to be taken? Some €380 million's worth of tracks are in the ground and are not going to be taken up. What is the overarching plan to deal with this? One third of Dublin Bus traffic goes through this area. That is one third of the 140 million passengers who use the service on an annual basis. Is the plan to remove buses altogether from the area? If it is, let us be upfront and honest with people about it.

Dublin Bus is agile and has the ability to respond. Can Mr. Coyne tell us how many additional buses there have been in the fleet in recent years? It was said that there were 100 but my understanding is that a significant percentage of those are replacement buses and not new buses. What do the witnesses think about the possibility of the establishment of one body with overall responsibility for traffic management in our capital city? It is not good enough for one side to blame the other and to shift the responsibility to someone else and it does not wash with the general public.

I welcome the two taxi representatives. They have a pivotal role to play, particularly for the business community visiting Dublin and for tourists, who may not be aware of the various public transport options and hail a taxi because they have confidence that the taxi can get them to their destination with relative ease. How do they think this issue can be addressed?

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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For information, Mr. Faughnan has had to leave.

Mr. Barry Aldworth:

Dublin needs the establishment of one body to handle these decisions. Congestion in Dublin has been getting worse for a long time. It is not new and one factor has been the tendency to blame motorists and then get into infighting about what to do next.

Having one body responsible for it seems to be the logical way forward and needs to be scoped out.

On alternatives for Dublin Bus, Parliament Street is a potential example. Use of Suffolk Street could work with a little re-engineering, if we are willing to make that investment. What needs to be assessed is the number of Dublin Bus services which pass by Trinity College Dublin and within 500 m of O’Connell Bridge. We then need to weigh the number of services passing these destinations with the number of passengers who actually get off buses at these stops. To anyone looking at the city, nearly every bus passes these destinations but not every passenger gets off at one of these stops. We need to assess what routes need to pass through the area and remove those that do not need to do so. That is the only viable solution.

Mr. Owen Keegan:

We will certainly be happy to provide detailed data showing the impact of the recently announced set of changes. The council’s position is that we had anticipated this. We have drawn up a plan which we are still confident will deal with it, namely, the plaza plan. There is a planning process and it took us some time to get the council to agree to it, as there were many objections to it. We underestimated how long it would take to get it through the planning approval process. We thought a period of six months would have been more than adequate, but that did not turn out to be the case and we are where we are. As I said, as we had anticipated this, accordingly, we prepared a plan which we believed would deal with it.

We are not banning all public transport, buses or taxis, from College Green. We are banning east-west traffic and reinforcing the north-south axis for all modes of public transport. We believe that by removing the conflicts associated with catering for east-west traffic, it will work for all modes. We can send the committee details of this. In developing the plaza plan we believe it will work for all modes. It will be possible to service all hotels in the area. Taxis can access close to College Green. They cannot pass through College Green, east-west, but they can certainly get close, almost as close as Foster Place. We believe the plan caters adequately for all modes.

It is important to appreciate that there is no solution that would allow the successful operation of the Luas without some impact on the other modes. We are also dealing with other sustainable modes as cars have long gone. We do not like to discommode bus passengers or taxi users. However, there is a bigger prize in ensuring the successful operation of the Luas. That is why we developed a proposal which allows for the successful operation of the Luas with the minimum inconvenience to other modes.

The plaza plan proposal has been held up. In the meantime, we are working well with Dublin Bus and the National Transport Authority, NTA, to address the congestion issue. There was no intent on my part to blame the NTA. It was just a factual statement. We have been working closely with the NTA and Dublin Bus on the changes needed to deal with the congestion issue. If further changes are required, we will work with the other bodies affected.

We are conscious of the role of the city centre in the use of transportation services which originate in outer areas. Getting the city centre working is important for everybody. It is just as important for routes which commence outside the city council area.

A technical issue was raised as to why taxis were not given access to St. Stephen’s Green. The legal position is that we cannot give access to contraflow bus services such as the one on St. Stephen's Green. We would welcome if the position was reviewed. However, that is the legal position and the arrangement in which we must operate.

We are committed to improving cycling infrastructure. The cycle elements associated with the Luas cross-city line were designed by Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, and clearly there are issues with them. A solution mooted was that we ban cyclists, but we held up against it. We will have to revisit elements of it because it is not satisfactory. We have sought to improve the position on College Green by introducing a new two-way cycle track.

Our difficulty with funding is getting political support at council level. We were delayed in providing a cycle route on the north quays because we could not get the agreement of members to bring forward a scheme. We have approved a cycle route from Clontarf to the city centre, but members are seeking independent legal advice to stop it. We are running into political difficulties in getting the council’s support. We are enthused about cycling and realise the contribution it makes. It is the fastest growing mode of transport in the city and we are keen to support it.

Mr. Brendan O'Brien:

On the time savings that will be made with the additional measures, the original measures removed 60 buses at peak hours and saved 20% in journey times. We anticipate that they it will probably save another 10% to 15% in journey times.

All Dublin Bus data are shared in real time with Dublin City Council which has a dedicated team of four people who work on bus routes. Once a week we meet representatives of Dublin Bus to review all of the data accumulatesd from the whole of the city to see where there are particular pinch points and where changes may be needed. According to these data, we will implement some changes. An example of how it worked was on the north and south quays. The data analysis showed that was the single worst route for Dublin Bus in the city and a plan was drawn up to deal with it. We are grateful for the way we work with Dublin Bus in that regard.

Once a week we also meet Transdev to go through particular issues which arise throughout the entire Luas network. We regularly meet the NTA, Dublin Bus and TII, particularly to discuss the College Green aspect. This afternoon I am due to meet TII again. That shows the level of co-operation. Every single vehicle in the Dublin Bus fleet transmits information to the city council every 20 seconds on where it is, if it is at a stop, the route it is serving and if there is congestion. We use data analysis to track what is happening. Dublin Bus also has dedicated staff working on the issue.

The particular proposal to introduce a plaza in the College Green area was examined in both the NTA's eastern regional model and by microsimulation. The latter also took into account cycling and so on in the area. The reason there is such emphasis on College Green is the number of routes which currently pass through it. We submitted to An Bord Pleanála a list of routes for Dublin Bus, as well as other bus services, and proposals for how they could run through Winetavern Street, Parliament Street, with additional routes on Dawson Street and the use of Westland Row.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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What is involved in a microsimulation model?

Mr. Brendan O'Brien:

Normally, when carrying out modelling work one is looking at demand, complex land-use and census data. A microsimulation model tries to model each car and individual vehicle in a network. It is much more of a visual tool.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is what I thought it was. What was the outcome of the microsimulation for College Green?

Mr. Brendan O'Brien:

We looked at the original layout of College Green and the microsimulation model predicted a 1 km queue of traffic that would pass through it.

As Mr. Keegan said, we are not removing all the traffic and public transport from College Green. We will not remove all the buses. The tram tracks will provide a high quality, fast public transport route for trams, buses and taxis. When we looked at that, that gave us a higher capacity for buses along that alignment than is currently proposed under the College Green plaza plan. This provides a good solution.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Presumably, the modelling that was done for the selection of the cross city route highlighted a significant conflict with bus services. How was that factored in afterwards in other plans?

Mr. Brendan O'Brien:

Many things have changed in College Green even since 2009 when we introduced the first bus corridor. The number of cyclists through the area increased startlingly and the number of taxis also increased significantly. For example, 1,200 cyclists pass through College Green during the peak hour. The space available has always been a problem in the location. There was a comment on how cycling was factored into the development of the Luas cross city line. Cycling was factored in by developing a two-way cycle track outside the Bank of Ireland to allow cyclists to safely pass through the area. Ultimately, we hope that will tie in through the plaza and up towards Dame Street. That was a specific response to the number of cyclists tripling since the original plans for Luas were drawn up.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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As difficult is the current scenario is, I would hate for us to move in a direction where cycling was banned in the city centre. That would be a disaster for the city on so many fronts. We should aim to triple those numbers again. There should be 3,000, 4,000 or 5,000 cyclists in the area if we go for it. There must be engineering solutions where, for example, cyclists coming from O'Connell Street could go down Westmoreland Street without the crossover manoeuvre where they go up Dame Street on the two-way cycle track through College Green. I would be concerned if the message coming out of this is that the solution to this is to ban cycling in Dublin.

Mr. Owen Keegan:

The message we were making clear is that the city council has resisted a suggestion that we should just ban cycling to address the safety issues. As we did with the two-way cycle track, we have to examine measures to address particular issues for cyclists and we are committed to doing that.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Did Mr. O'Brien micro-model O'Connell Bridge and the quays post-Luas cross city impact?

Mr. Brendan O'Brien:

We did modelling work on O'Connell Bridge. When we looked at the north and south quays and implemented public transport measures in August, we introduced two specific measures. One was a bus priority measure by which we could control the volume of general traffic that made it to Bachelors Walk to give priority to public transport. The second measure, which was the key one, was the introduction of a right turn ban on cars turning on to O'Connell Bridge. That was designed to allow public transport to smoothly flow through that area. The Deputy is correct that there was an issue with the longer trams and the Luas crossing smoothly from the south side to the north side without stopping on the bridge and interfering with traffic. When we looked at maintaining the current traffic flow, it simply was not going to work. Introducing those measures has alleviated many of the concerns. Now that the longer trams are starting to go into service, we have worked through how we make sure they go across the bridge but we have to put in an important caveat, which is that there is shared running. The Luas does not have its own dedicated space on O'Connell Bridge; it shares with other modes of transport. If a bus or a taxi is stopped in front of a tram and does not allow it to proceed, the tram from time to time will block the south quays or if that happens on the Rosie Hackett Bridge, it will block the north quays. We have tried to minimise that by placing the emphasis on public transport and reducing the volume of traffic entering the D'Olier Street-College Green area.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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According to what Mr. O'Brien said, the city council ignored the consequences of 55 m Luas trams. It seems to be saying that all transport modes should be set aside to facilitate the longer trams. Could it not have waited another year or more until more appropriate traffic control measures were in place in the city? I gather from what Mr. O'Brien said that longer trams in the city centre were to be facilitated at all costs at the expense of buses, taxies and even cyclists. Could the council not have held off since it could see a problem coming?

Mr. Brendan O'Brien:

The initial measures we took were in two particular areas where the tram cannot fit on bridges. The tram cannot stop on O'Connell Bridge or the Rosie Hackett Bridge without blocking either the south or north quays and, therefore, our response, which we put in place last August, was to make sure that public transport could move. The stated objective we had at the time was to remove some of the bottlenecks for public transport in the area and to make sure that the introduction of the tram on O'Connell Bridge did not cause problems for public transport on the north and south quays. Those measures have been successful. Originally, we had examined whether we needed to remove cars from Bachelors Walk completely but we did not do that. They can still travel down Eden Quay and the south quays. We, therefore, took appropriate measures to safeguard public transport in the area.

The other aspect of this is cycling and we have always steadfastly said, as Mr. Keegan pointed out, that we need to accommodate cycling in the city centre because that is the growth mode currently. The measure we took, particularly on the north and south quays, to introduce more public transport priority assisted cyclists in large numbers. The figures for the number of people cycling on the quays versus those using other transport modes show that to be the correct case.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I call Mr. Coyne.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

I will take the questions as they were raised. There were a couple of key drivers in the decision made last year to abolish the city centre fare. One was the value of the Leap card. The city centre fare was not there when the card was introduced and that gives significant value to our customers, with discounts for more than 25% versus cash fares. There is capping as well and many free journeys are gained by regular users. The rationale, therefore, for a city centre fare is significantly diminished.

We have also embarked with the NTA over the past five years on a fare simplification programme with a view to the long term. We are improving services and making it easier for customers to understand. The complexity of fares was a significant barrier and we set out on a programme of reducing complexity and removing the city centre fare was part of that. The final issue in this regard is the removal of the ten buses. Mr. O'Brien addressed that in terms of the expected improvements but some of the changes - northwards of 30% on some alignments - will be monitored over the coming weeks but we expect to see similar improvements.

I do not have the specifics on the 40L route. We have a planning framework for new services. The proposal is moving along through the framework with the NTA and, therefore, I am not at liberty to give the final alignment.

The frequency is in or around a 30-minute headway, which would be matching in with the Broombridge Luas end. As for marketing, we will be lending our expertise to the National Transport Authority, NTA, to do that. We have a significant team in our marketing department that has significant knowledge and expertise in the direct marketing of bus routes, and we use a lot of social media in that area. It has proven to be successful in the past and we will make sure that is done in this area as well.

The College Green area was raised a number of times and it has been discussed for many years. It is a key area of Dublin city. It is a transit corridor. My predecessors 20 years ago were probably arguing the same point I am arguing, namely, that it is a transit corridor in Dublin city, people are transported to that area and they then disperse. Not everybody travelling into the city gets off a bus at College Green and has a two-minute walk to their office or to the retail store or leisure facility to which they wish to go. They may have significant walk distances. If the College Green bus gate was removed, the walk distances involved for commuters could be excessive. The Trinity College area was mentioned. The next access point would be a long way down Westland Row and if people want to get to Grafton Street, Nassau Street, Stephen's Green North and such areas, it can be a long distance to walk.

Dublin Bus has been engaged in planning with Dublin City Council and the NTA. As was rightly stated, we knew this was coming down the tracks. In 2011, Dublin Bus implemented the largest network redesign in Europe. Some Deputies may recall that at that time we removed on-street termini from the city centre. If we consider the Luas alignment that is in place now and the previous termini for bus routes in the city centre, it is what it is. Parnell Street West, Parnell Street East, Parnell Street North, Marlborough Street, Hawkins Street, Pearse Street, Fleet Street and Aston Quay used to be bus termini but they are no longer are. That was done in 2011. The reason it was done then was that we were undertaking the largest network review in Europe and we said we would plan for the future and the Luas cross city project was to happen. We thought there was no point in coming back in 2017 and being asked that as we knew this was happening, why did we not make the changes? Consequently, we made those changes. The network we have today is totally different from what was there previously.

The College Green bus gate is the single biggest benefit to bus users in the city over the past 20 years. There are complementary bus lanes throughout the city which are welcome, but that bus gate is a massive boost to public transport. I commend the councillors at the time on implementing that bus gate. Many bus lanes operate from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. during which time priority is given to buses but that period needs to be extended. We need to get more people using buses. Bus lanes giving buses priority need to operate for a longer period. The College Green bus gate facilitated a network review and our growth of having up to 139 million customers.

We need bus priority, reliability, punctual consistent journey times and to bring customers where they want to go. It is not where the bus wants to go but where customers want to go. If we can get that working in our city centre, that would be brilliant. We need to realign our services around that. However, at this point in time there are not many alternatives. That is why it is such a complex area. We discuss this with Dublin City Council and the NTA and we have not been found wanting in our readiness to adjust our services. In January we adjusted 17 services and we will adjust ten services on 5 March. We will monitor that and if there are further requirements, we will do what is best for our customers but also what is best for the city. We are so vital to the economic vibrancy of the city that we need to make sure that is maintained. We do not want a city where buses can all the priority in the world but nobody is travelling into the city on the buses because the shops are closing. We are very conscious of our role in ensuring that the economy in Dublin city is vibrant and continues to progress. The College Green bus gate has been in place for 20 years because it is such a key area in the city and the confines around it. We in Dublin Bus have shown our willingness to move and preplan, which we have done during the last eight years, and we will continue to do that bearing in mind the interests of our customers, the city and all our stakeholders.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Coyne mentioned that there are not many alternatives but what alternatives are there?

Mr. Ray Coyne:

Deputy Eamon Ryan asked a question on area. If we consider route buses travel in the city, and Deputy Ryan mentioned a wide area of Dublin city from which people travel into the city.

People travelling from Blanchardstown in the city benefit from the College Green bus gate. Many people do not use it but the consistency of the bus journey time benefits them as they are travelling in from further out of the city. The consistency of the journey time and the fact that it is not variable also makes our services more frequent. We used to have 40-minute spikes but the College Green bus gate wiped much of that out in its early phases. If we were to remove the College Green bus gate, the next location, as essentially it involves crossing the Liffey, would be Parliament Street, which is the next bridge. I would not consider Parliament Street having regard to how it operates today. From a planning point of view, there is traffic on Parliament Street, there is a bridge and this turn and that turn but we would need to examine it to ascertain what would be possible in that context. In its current state it is not a suitable alternative because one cannot turn left off the quays on to Parliament Street. Buses go through College Green to go up George's Street, but if the route was down the quays, I believe the next left-hand turn would be down at Church Street and how would buses get back to go up George's Street? As we view it, Parliament Street is one side while the other side is essentially Westland Row at the back of Trinity College. Those are the two edges of it but many people are travelling north of that and consequently, one must try to get the buses back there. If we were to send people down to Bridge Street and then send them back into town, that would not be suitable. There is the issue of our customers' experience but there is also the matter of a responsibility for the economy of the city. We need to attract customers on to buses and to bring them into the city centre for work, retail purposes and social and cultural life. If we were to make the restrictions so stark that it turns people away, we would end up with increasingly fewer people using public transport. That would be a downward spiral. I would suggest Parliament Street is the next closest alternative and it would need significant adjustments in traffic movement within those areas.

I do not believe it is a zero-sum game. College Green is a multi-modal area at present and I am sure it will remain so after whatever decisions are made and it should remain so. I am not speaking only in the context of buses and the Luas. It is not the case that if there were zero-sum buses, the problem would be solved. We need to consider wider issues. We are not the only provider operating in that area along with the Luas. There are many vehicle movements in it and that needs to be taken into account in any future decisions. We have been consistent on that, particularly since 2016. We have advocated for a multi-modal approach. We know the city certainly is not about Dublin Bus but from my perspective, it is about having integrated public transport. That is what we need to work towards. It is complex. If there was an easy resolution, it probably would have been addressed 20 years ago but it is complex. A significant portion of the economy in Dublin city is at stake. Therefore, moving buses tomorrow from that area is not an option for the economy. Buses can move anywhere but in terms of maintaining public transport and contributing to the economy, buses are crucial and we need to consider that.

I thank Deputy Ryan for his kind comments, which are a great reflection on all our employees. I will make sure that is fed back to our employees. They do tremendous work in delivering our services bearing in mind we have had a significant increase in passenger numbers.

The BusConnects plan is an NTA programme of work funded by the Government. It comprises a suite of nine initiatives, some of which will be long term with regard to integrated ticketing, cashless ticketing, account based ticketing and fare simplification, which I mentioned earlier. We are progressing some of those issues as we proceed. Significant infrastructural improvements are required, including park-and-ride sites and significant interchange in areas. The NTA is working on that. Dublin Bus will feed in its expertise into that. We have a long history of expertise in managing, planning and implementing bus networks, which have brought ancillary benefits for our customers. We will feed our views to the NTA. One of the earliest indicators in this respect is that BusConnects provides for increased frequency and increased service levels. We have been adding buses to our routes during the last year. During the past three years, we have added north of 20% to services. BusConnects will be part of that. We have started to introduce the services. There is a network redesign in BusConnects and we did the largest one in Europe in 2011. We are feeding our information into the NTA. At present, it is in charge of this and is leading it. I understand there will be a consultation period, which will commence in the second quarter of this year. That will be a full redesign of the total bus network in Dublin.

We have significant experience of doing it successfully and we will feed that into the NTA. I believe the public consultation will take place in the second quarter. Initiatives are occurring in the background, but we will put a BusConnects brand on that at a later stage.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We already know the cross-city BRT plans for Tallaght and UCD have been agreed. How many of those are ready to go to tender?

Mr. Ray Coyne:

I cannot answer that question because the NTA has responsibility for that. I would not be in a position to answer that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Mr. Coyne must know.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

No. We are focused on-----

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Mr. Coyne does not know.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

-----the public tendering aspect.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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When representatives of TII appeared before the committee, I asked them how many rail-based or bus-based projects it had ready to go to tender and the answer was zero. It has loads of road projects; we build roads with no problem. When it comes to transport projects we do not seem to be able to do it. Those projects would provide cross-city connectivity. Blanchardstown is one of them. When I talk to people behind the scenes, I get no sense of progress. We need to make political decisions. The block may be on the political side where people are not willing to make the tough calls on how we allocate road space. I get the sense that, at a political level, that is not happening and so it is not happening for the consumer at the end. If we are not going to tender, it means we are not getting something for four or five years because it takes two or three years even after the tender process to get it done. Therefore, it could take five or six years.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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May I ask a supplementary question on that? A particular type of bus is obviously required for those rapid routes. Has the NTA or TII flagged to Dublin Bus that the NTA will provide funding for the purchase of those specialised buses - they are essentially trams on rubber wheels - to serve those rapid routes? Has Dublin Bus been given a timeline as to when they might be supplied for the first such route to come into operation?

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Deputy Lahart to turn off his phone.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

Decision on tendering rests with the NTA. My statement referred to bus rapid transit priority; that is not to say bus rapid transit will be introduced. Last week's National Development Plan shows significant adjustments, giving priority to Luas and the electrification of train services. I am not sure that bus rapid transit is in there. That is not to say it is not possible to get bus rapid transit priority on corridors.

No bus rapid transit vehicles have been procured. It was originally intended to be introduced by this stage. Dublin Bus has a contract to 2019. It is not referred to in that contract for services. Any buses can be operated on a bus rapid transit system; it is not a closed system. However, for truly effective bus rapid transit, they would be five-door single-deck 60 m buses.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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They will not be crossing O'Connell Bridge I hope.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

We would operate them anywhere but in that area, given the discussion this morning.

There is significant work ongoing with the NTA on increased priority on bus corridors. We have 14 corridors coming into the city centre. We have had tremendous benefits on them. In fairness hard decisions have been made. We can look to recent improvements in Drumcondra where there was a compulsory purchase order on land. BusConnects provides a huge amount of that and it is necessary. What was done on the Stillorgan Road 20 years ago is the exemplar. There was a lot of angst about the plans at that time. At that time we got success and we were able to point to that success and deliver it to other areas because people were afraid of what may or may not be. At the time Parliament Street had the only bus lane in the city. We now have a huge number of bus lanes.

The NTA is designing to increase the standards of our current QBCs and to add new QBCs. An example of that would be stop lines right up to traffic lights, instead of allowing cars to filter in and out because that delays the progress of buses. We will get increased stop lines and we will get increased infrastructure access around the alignments. Off-street ticketing could be pursued. The NTA is working on them. They are well advanced on them. As I do not work in the NTA, I do not have the specific answers. I am sure the NTA would be happy to feed in that information. I know it is well advanced on the corridors.

We feed in our information from a bus operation and customer experience point of view. That is part of BusConnects. I know it is very well advanced. The bus network design probably will be the first explicit thing customers will see, allowing them to say, "This is BusConnects. Now I can see some tangible changes." That will be the consultation period. I assure the Deputy that there is significant planning on it. Regarding BusConnects, there is no intention to introduce radical changes in areas where there are planned infrastructure changes; that may or may not happen. It will operate in tandem. I cannot give specifics on the-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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As Dublin Bus will be tendering for some of these routes, it will be watching that. When will it need to do some work, including buying-----

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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Chairman, I think it may be worthwhile to have a dedicated discussion to this. It is somewhat unfair on a Dublin Bus witness to be answering questions that are more relevant to the NTA.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I agree.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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However, Dublin Bus will be tendering.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

We will be tendering for routes, so-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am a committee member as well, by the way.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

If the NTA put routes out to tender, Dublin Bus will make a decision as to whether it should tender for them. We also operate a direct-award contract. At present 100% of our services are direct award, outside our commercial services. An integrated network requires just that - integration. We would be strong advocates that a direct-award contract provides the integration required. We have increased our bus fleet by more than 20% in recent years. We have done that within our direct-award contract. Any decision to tender further bus routes is out of the hands of Dublin Bus; it is a Government decision and a policy decision of the NTA. Dublin Bus will make a decision at the time as to whether it would tender from that point of view.

Deputy Troy made a fair comment - eight changed to ten. We made the decision the other day that we could change another two routes; there are only two trips on them, but nonetheless it comes out as two routes. I knew I would be asked the question today. It is certainly not that we were making it up. We just made the decision that we could possibly do another two and decided to go after that. That shows Dublin Bus is progressive in making adjustments to assist in addressing the congestion in the city. If it gave that impression, I am sorry it did. It is certainly not that we are making it up. As I said, since 2011 we have been planning route realignments related to Luas cross-city. We will look at route realignments over the next week and in the following two weeks. We will continue to do that.

I hope I have explained about the traffic through the area. The Deputy correctly mentioned that one third of Dublin Bus customers use the area directly. It is correct to say that not everybody gets off in the area, but everybody who travels through College Green in a bus benefits significantly from the priority it gives. Some 82 million customers would benefit, but directly approximately 20 million customers benefit every single day from College Green.

On the 20% increase, by the end of March this year we will have added approximately 40 buses to our fleet. All our vehicles are procured by the NTA; we do not fund any of our vehicles. We have an ideal replacement cycle of replacing a bus every 12 years, given its economic value lifetime cycle. Therefore, one-12th of our fleet should be replaced every year to be most efficient. That equates to nearly 100 buses. Any growth will require extra buses. Between last year and now we have added about 40 buses to the network. The NTA funded 102, of which 62 would have been replacement vehicles for older vehicles that went out of the system. We get significant benefits from them and they show on our customer experience numbers. The Deputy mentioned Wi-Fi. We also have USB charging points. Every bus is wheelchair accessible. They have Euro 6 standard engines. Replacing a 16-year old bus with one that meets the Euro 6 standard has a significant impact on the environment. In addition the vehicles are much nicer inside, which also attracts customers.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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While I appreciate that, I was just trying to ascertain the additional capacity Dublin Bus has, as opposed to simply replacement buses. Of course, it makes economic sense and it is brilliant that the buses would be replaced.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

We have added approximately 40 from October last year to March of this year.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Is that October 2015?

Mr. Ray Coyne:

It is October 2017. There is a significant increase in services.

We have changed approximately 22 routes this year, outside of those related to College Green and that has increased capacity. Deputy Lahart will be familiar with the No.15 route, for example, which now has one of the strongest frequencies in the city, with a bus every four minutes at peak times. There has been a significant increase in the number of vehicles that have been put into services there. We have also introduced additional vehicles because as congestion returns, buses are slower in completing their journeys. Some vehicles are added because of congestion or longer journey times while others are deployed to increase capacity. There are also some routes that are faster and we can take vehicles off them and reallocate them. I can send on the figures for growth over the past five years to the Deputy.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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To get back to the College Green issue, did Dublin Bus envisage this problem coming down the track, in the context of the initial planning discussions by Dublin City Council and the Department eight years ago? Apart from discommoding commuters and shoppers, is Dublin Bus incurring additional costs as a result of the relocation of route pick-up points?

Mr. Ray Coyne:

In terms of College Green and the Luas, we would have been engaging with DCC and the NTA for a long number of years. We knew that adding a Luas into the mix on College Green would mean that adjustments would be required. We knew that and have made significant adjustments to our services. As with all things, one plans but one does not know exactly what will happen. The network that is there today is radically different from what was there previously. We moved a lot of services during 2011 and 2012. We also reduced the totality of our network by 20%, which would have had a significant impact on the bus levels going through. We moved services away from College Green a number of years ago during the construction phase of LCC; they have been permanently moved and no longer exist. At this stage, we have moved close to 30% of vehicles through the area. We have moved a significant amount but there may be a requirement to move some more. We will consider that, if necessary. It is very difficult to see into the future but we did make a lot of changes. I would also point out that January and February are traditionally the worst months for congestion in the city. There will be a natural easing of traffic congestion in the city as we head into March, April and May. What we have now is the worst of the worst but we have seen significant improvements in recent weeks. Bus operators plan all of the time and we have moved routes, both before and since the introduction of LCC. We will move more if we need to and Dublin City Council is making adjustments too. Between all of us, we will very quickly get to a situation where we have a workable solution.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. We will now move on to Mr. Peter Lunden-Welden from Transdev.

Mr. Peter Lunden-Welden:

I thank the committee members for their questions. As a foreigner who is here for the first time, it is a little strange for me to be appearing in the parliament of a foreign country, even though I feel very much at home in Ireland and in Dublin.

The first question I was asked was about my views on the extension of the Luas to Finglas and whether there had been any consultations with the NTA on same. Transdev has been operating here since 2004 and in partnership with various Government bodies has supplied four extensions to the network so far. All of these extensions have been enormously successful and have widely exceeded passenger number expectations. If the Government and the NTA decides to go further with plans for new Luas extensions, we will support it as we have always done to date. At the moment there is no consultation taking place because it is too early in the process. I would love to see an extension to Finglas but any programme of building new tramways will take some time.

I was also asked about Dublin Bus changes and my colleague from Dublin Bus has already spoken a lot about the process involved. Since I came here and prior to the opening of LCC, Dublin Bus and Transdev have worked very closely, not only at senior level but also and especially at control room level. We have had an exchange of operators in an effort to understand each other's problems. We have built up a lot of personal relationships between staff at Dublin Bus and Luas in recent months and that has created a better situation than would have been the case otherwise. Regarding the detailed question as to whether we could have a Passenger Information Display, PID, on O'Connell Street directing people to Marlborough Street, I will forward that to Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, which is the responsible body for that kind of infrastructural implementation. With the three minute headway we have, which is five minutes off-peak, more people will go over to Marlborough Street to take the Luas. Today the number of passengers going from St. Stephen's Green to Parnell Street is almost double what we anticipated for this stage of the operation. A few trams can even be full all the way to Parnell Street or to Upper O'Connell Street.

Senator O'Mahony and Deputy Catherine Murphy asked whether work is ongoing on this. As my colleague from DCC has said, we are meeting on a regular basis, discussing and going into great detail. Transdev staff, together with DCC staff are looking at each signal to determine if we can make improvements for all modes of public transport, including taxis. We are not looking at this only from the perspective of Luas or Dublin Bus but in terms of how to improve the situation for everyone. We have a common interest in terms of moving commuters as quickly as possible.

Deputy Lahart asked a lot of questions about congestion. Since the opening of LCC the number of passengers on the green line has increased by 24%, while on the Luas system as a whole we have seen an increase of 16%. This is evidence of the success of the Luas. Whatever we put in place in terms of Luas services, it seems it will not meet the demand. If we increase the number of trams, the demand will be even higher. As members are aware, we are introducing seven new trams all of which will be in service by the first week in May. The next step after that would be to extend the existing 26 trams, depending on the political process in this House, to become 55 m trams. The third step would be to buy another eight trams. My prediction, however, is that none of that will solve the congestion problems because with all of that will come even higher demand for Luas services, especially with the ongoing development in the Brides Glen area, for example. I was very pleased when I saw that the Government is planning to introduce a metro system. The plan that was launched last week included the addition of metro north which will also serve the southern part of the city.

Reference was made to O'Connell Bridge, which is 40 m long and to our 55 m trams and in that context I can share a snapshot of today with the committee. No tram, whether 40 m or 55 m long, stopped the cars, when they had the green light, from crossing the bridge. When the cars had the green light, the trams also had a green light to move out of the yellow box. Even though the trams are longer, as my colleague from DCC explained, the way the signals are handled is such that the trams are signalled to proceed and get out of the way of the traffic. Of course, in the context of rush hour traffic, there will be situations where a tram is blocking the traffic but that happens for all modes of transport. Due to the complexity and intensity of the traffic at rush hour, there will be incidents where some mode of transport will block other modes.

I was also asked if we can extend our hours of operation.

As a private operator, if such a request was made by the NTA, I would immediately change the roster and hire new staff to support it. The operating hours of Dublin Bus and the Luas are the same and calculated on the needs of service users. In many countries night services are operated. but in others they are not because it is believed taxis are an adequate alterative during night hours.

On overcrowding and access to the Luas for wheelchair users at peak hours, I cannot deny that it is a problem. As a mode of transport the Luas is very popular. Demand for the service is very high, but it is fully accessible to disabled people. Where we are notified in advance by wheelchair users of their intention to travel on the Luas, we try to support them, in the first instance by providing them with time slots for when there is less congestion and, second, assistance to enter a tram.

The issue of Luas travel times through College Green was discussed previously. My only reflection is that since the service was launched in December 2017, travel times have improved by three to four minutes. Following completion of the work proposed by Dublin City Council, they will improve further.

Deputy Robert Troy asked for my opinion on having one body with overall responsibility for public transport. As an operator, I am happy to work with those who have a mandate to make decisions on public transportation. I have no problem working with TII, the NTA, Dublin Bus or Dublin City Council. In 2004 there was much conflict between bodies in this area, but today there is a greater understanding of the need for them to work together. I regularly meet all of the stakeholders to try to solve problems. For me, what is important is not whether oversight of the area should be the responsibility of one or several bodies but that we solve the problems in order that people can get to work and so on.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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In many of big the cities across Europe there are restricted delivery hours. As a motorist, I regularly see delivery vans parked in bus lanes and on double yellow lines, which contributes significantly to congestion. I would welcome the views of all of the delegates on whether deliveries should be restricted, particularly in Dublin, to off-peak hours or at night time.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask Mr. Herron to respond to earlier questions first.

Mr. Joe Herron:

The Irish Taxi Drivers Federation, in association with the Taxi Alliance Ireland and other representative bodies, presented the National Transport Authority with an alternative east-west and west-east route, in other words, through the College Green area from Dame Street to O'Connell Street and vice versa.While it was not dismissed out of hand, it was dismissed as not being acceptable. We believe insufficient consideration was given to this proposal. As I said, as taxis provide a door-to-door service, they need access to all areas. The idea that they would have only access to what is described as "very close to" is not good enough. It is not acceptable that a taxi driver would be expected to drop a passenger at College Green, leaving him or her to make the remainder of his or her journey on foot to, say, the Shelbourne Hotel, the Westbury Hotel or Grafton plaza.

When Deputy Catherine Murphy mentioned the Dublin transportation initiative, I was reminded that the Irish Taxi Drivers Federation had been presented with a plan for the number of cars that would use Dublin city streets in the following five years. The projections were exceeded in one year. As we do not know what the future will bring in Dublin, when decisions are being made on transport issues, each provider of transport must be given the opportunity to engage in that regard. It is not good enough that such decisions are made either individually by Dublin City Council or the National Transport Authority or both organisations together. There must be widespread consultation on these matters into the future.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Herron for his response and invite Mr. Macken to respond.

Mr. Gerard Macken:

On quality bus corridors, the Drumcondra bus corridor, to and from the city, is a complete mess at peak times owing to illegal parking, including for deliveries. There is major congestion along the route from Quinn's pub to Dorset Street as traffic enforcement along bus lanes is non-existent. While the installation of a traffic monitoring system in the area has been mentioned, I understand legislation is needed to allow for its installation. There is, therefore, no quality bus corridor to the city centre. Often three or four buses end up trapped behind each other because a car or other vehicle is parked illegally in the bus lane.

On the plan for the College Green plaza, one of the alternative routes proposed by Taxi Alliance Ireland was Anglesea Street to Fleet Street to Westmoreland Street. If legislation is not introduce soon to regulate rickshaws, taxis will drop passengers off on the plaza where rickshaws will pick them them up. That is a joke, but the Minister does not appear to be interested in addressing the issue. People in wheelchairs and others who have trouble in getting around need to be dropped off at the door at their destination. If no alternative routes are provided for taxis, if a taxi picks up a passenger who wants to go to Fairview, Malahide or Howth, he or she will have drive to Winetavern Street, travel down the quays and across O'Connell Bridge, which is not acceptable. I have not heard of any alternative today to enable taxis to move around the city. When the plaza is finished, taxi drivers will be permitted to turn left from Dawson Street onto Nassau Street, but currently if they pick up a passenger on Dawson Street and need to get to Pearse Street, they have to travel via Molesworth Street, South Frederick Street and Nassau Street. They are constantly getting it in the neck because these issues are not being addressed.

We have an awful lot of concerns. We put in all these objections and have heard absolutely nothing back. Yes, we would love to be part of everyone's joined-up thinking because an awful lot of the time the taxi industry has to go knocking on doors to get in and get our points across. We are an integral part of the city in that we are a door-to-door service. We cannot say to tourists that where they want to go is only around the corner, and the hotels need us. I do not think anyone has even thought of the app companies. If someone presses an app on South Great George's Street and wants a taxi on Westmoreland Street or the other side of the plaza, people will just cancel jobs. There are the despatch operators as well. A lot of thinking needs to go into the question of how we will get to the customers within the city centre, and I have not heard any alternatives whatsoever today for the taxi industry.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does anyone wish to answer Deputy Troy's question? I call Mr. Coyne.

Mr. Ray Coyne:

I touched on this earlier. I mentioned the timed bus lanes. Dublin Bus's view is that the hours of bus lanes need to be extended. We are engaging with the NTA now on introducing some 24-hour services in 2018. This will require bus lane priority because not everyone is out of the city by 7 o'clock, Monday to Friday. We need that extended. There has been huge investment in the city over the past 20 years in bus lanes and massive benefits. There will always be a pinch point somewhere, but we see continuous improvement. We have improved the services over the past 15 years, in particular with the roll-out of QBCs. Some 139 million customers benefited from the priority afforded this year and, as I mentioned earlier, there is customer satisfaction of 92% among those 139 million customers. As part of BusConnects there are next-generation bus corridors. This is what I was alluding to earlier when I referred to stop lines up to the traffic lights. QBCs are not a closed system. There will be significant increases in priority, and QBCs will come through over the next number of years, but what we need is consistency in being able to access the city and keep our journey times consistent. Deliveries, wherever and whenever they are made, need to be done where they do not impact the customer experience and the reliability of the bus service.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Rock wanted to ask one final question.

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Vice Chairman for indulging me. Something occurred to me in the course of the conversation, particularly regarding bus rapid transit and whether or not it might be introduced. One of the current policies of the council on which we have a lot of correspondence - and I would appreciate it if Mr. Keegan might undertake a commitment to review it - is that in the areas where BRT is currently proposed, whether or not it happens and when it happens being another debate, traffic projects are not getting permission from Dublin City Council to proceed. I refer to road augmentations and other changes. In particular I am thinking of Swords Road, Drumcondra Road, etc. In one instance I have a project on my desk which I think the NTA is willing to fund. Dublin City Council has been sent this correspondence and the council regularly comes back to me saying it will not contemplate any changes to arrangements on that stretch - this case is on Swords Road specifically - as long as the bus rapid transit plans are still pending. I would appreciate a review of this approach.

Mr. Owen Keegan:

We do not want to compromise the potential of bus rapid transit by allowing any development that would be inconsistent with it. I do not know the specifics of the case to which the Deputy refers, but our general policy is that we are not prepared to allow any prospective development that would be potentially inconsistent with the future provision of a higher level of priority.

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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The way it is working now does not allow for any prospective development, full stop.

Mr. Owen Keegan:

I would be happy to review any individual case, but the policy is well-intended, that is, that we do not want to allow development if we will be coming back in a few years to compulsorily acquire it and knock it down to allow a full bus lane. That is the thinking behind the policy. I am happy to review any particular case, but-----

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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That is understandable, but I presume if the NTA is willing to fund itself, it would view it as compatible with its own developments in the future as well.

Mr. Owen Keegan:

I am happy to review any individual case if the Deputy brings it to my intention.

Noel Rock (Dublin North West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. I will send the details to Mr. Keegan.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Coyne wish to make a comment?

Mr. Ray Coyne:

Regarding leaving corridors open, I agree with the council's position. While the next-generation bus corridors are not called BRT, they will give priority levels and frequency levels that are close to BRT, so it is BRT in all but name. They need to be preserved for future development.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think we have resolved the issue but I hope we will get many questions answered and get the answers out there in the public domain. I thank our witnesses for being here and for their most informative presentations. I must also thank them for their patience in waiting. We went over time on the previous session. With that, the meeting is now concluded.