Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 22 February 2017
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport
Situation in Bus Éireann: Discussion
9:00 am
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Before we begin can I remind everybody in the room to please turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment. We now turn to consider the situation at Bus Éireann and the issues of the rural transport programme and the free travel pass scheme.
I welcome everybody to the meeting today. This is the fourth meeting in a series of meetings we have convened to discuss the situation at Bus Éireann. We previously heard from the acting CEO, Mr. Ray Hernon, we have had the Government perspective from the Minister, Deputy Ross and more recently we have heard from the unions. Today we have the NTA and officials from the Department of Social Protection. In this regard I am delighted to welcome to the meeting Ms Anne Graham, chief executive officer of the NTA, Mr. Tim Gaston, director of public transport services with the NTA and from the Department of Social Protection, Mr. Tim Duggan, assistant secretary, Ms Miriam Finnegan, principal officer and Mr. Darragh Doherty and Mr. Peter O'Reilly, assistant principal officers. I hope I have not left anybody out.
At the outset, we as a committee are very disappointed at the breakdown in talks at the Workplace Relations Commission yesterday. As I have said, we have spent the last month or so examining this issue and again, as a committee, we want to urge all parties, including the Minister, to engage and to resume negotiations, even at this stage, to avoid any possible disruption that may occur.
A national bus service is crucial to many people's lives and this committee is acutely conscious of that.
By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I invite Ms Graham to make her opening statement.
Ms Anne Graham:
I understand the committee wishes to focus upon the financial situation in Bus Éireann and the rural transport programme. To assist me in dealing with subsequent questions I am joined by Tim Gaston, director of public transport services with the authority. Before dealing with the specific areas of focus, I would like to set the context by providing a brief overview of the remit of the authority in this provision of public transport services.
The remit of the National Transport Authority is to regulate and develop the provision of integrated public transport services, namely, bus, rail, light rail and taxi, by public and private operators in the State, to secure the development and implementation of an integrated transport system within the greater Dublin area, and to contribute to the effective integration of transport and land use planning across the State. In addition to its statutory responsibilities, the authority has various arrangements with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport to discharge functions on its behalf. This includes the assignment of responsibility to the authority for integrated local and rural transport, including provision of the rural transport programme. The authority is responsible for securing the provision of public bus services through two specified mechanisms: public service contracts, where services cannot be provided on a commercial basis; and the licensing of public bus services, which are operated on a commercial basis. In licensing commercial bus services, it is important to note that the relevant legislation, the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009, requires the authority to seek to achieve, in the public interest, regulated competition in the provision of such services.
I would like to now deal with the specific areas of focus raised by the committee, that is the financial position of Bus Éireann. Bus Éireann finds itself in a very difficult position financially, caused by losses related to its commercial Expressway business. It should be noted that the NTA has fully remunerated Bus Éireann for the services that it operates under the direct award contract with the authority since December 2009. The NTA rejects the suggestions that the granting of commercial licences to bus operators has been solely to blame for the difficulties being experienced by Bus Éireann. The notions that there is saturation on the intercity corridors served by Expressway services and that the NTA grants licences to operators at the drop of a hat also do not stand up to scrutiny. In fact, since 2011 we have rejected almost as many applications for licences on these key routes as we have granted.
Our primary responsibility in law is to the travelling public and when we assess an application for a commercial licence we do so with the public in mind. It has consistently been the case that where new licences are issued in these markets, overall passenger numbers have increased, in many cases very significantly. For example, between 2012 and 2015 total bus passenger numbers on the Cork-Dublin corridor increased by 61%, while on the Limerick-Dublin corridor they increased by 50%. In other words, rather than saturating the market, what we have actually done is increase public transport capacity, and in so doing enabled many more journeys to be undertaken on the bus network.
Bus Éireann commercial services like Expressway account for only 19% of all the company’s passengers. Some 81% of Bus Éireann passengers are on routes subsidised under the public service obligation, PSO, contract that the company has entered into with the NTA. This will not change and these services are under no threat. In fact, they have been a huge success story in recent years, with passenger numbers continuing to increase. Last month the NTA published passenger figures for 2016, which indicated a 5.5% increase in passengers on Bus Éireann subsidised services, jumping from 30.2 million in 2015 to 32 million last year. Subvention for these services by the NTA to Bus Éireann increased from €34 million in 2014 to €40 million in 2016 and that figure is likely to go up again in 2017.
The objective of the rural transport programme, local link, is to provide a good quality nationwide community-based public transport system in rural Ireland which responds to local needs. In 2016, funding of €11.9 million was provided through the authority for the programme with an additional €1.5 million provided by the Department of Social Protection under the free travel scheme. Since assuming responsibility for the programme in 2012, we have focused on restructuring the programme to provide greater efficiency and effectiveness in the service delivery. The restructuring programme included the establishment of 17 local link offices, which replaced the 35 rural transport groups previously managing the programme. Local passenger services are managed by the relevant local link office in each area on behalf of the authority. This restructuring has positioned the programme to better integrate with other public transport services, and provides a solid base to expand or adapt services to meet current and future identified needs. Now that the organisational restructuring has been completed, we are focused on optimising the services provided within the funding envelope available. A review of services is currently in progress to ensure that they are meeting the needs of local families in rural areas.
It is very evident that there are gaps in the provision of rural transport services across the State. Local link offices are working closely with local authorities and local communities on the assessment of local transport needs, including the needs of those who are socially excluded. Local link offices are the NTA's eyes and ears in rural Ireland, and working together I believe we can make real progress in improving local public transport services. Twenty-one new regular commuter bus services were secured in the network in 2016. Regular five, six and seven-day-per-week bus services have been introduced following considerable development work by the authority and the relevant offices in Cavan-Monaghan, Meath, Kerry, Waterford, Wexford and Sligo-Leitrim-Roscommon.
In 2017 the authority will continue to identify improvements in existing services and to develop appropriate new routes based on the budget of €15.9 million, including the €1.5 million from the Department of Social Protection. Over 40 new additional rural transport services are currently being examined by the authority to be delivered across the State this year. Key features of the developments include greater integration with existing public transport services and better linkage of services between and within towns and villages.
The authority is continually working with Bus Éireann to provide improvements on its contracted services and is now looking at expansion of those services, with the budget for public service obligations having increased since 2016. Kerry and Mayo are two of the counties that have seen service improvements. The authority also promoted the improvements in the regional cities which have seen phenomenal growth in passenger numbers. Improved town services have also been delivered in Athlone following the success of the Sligo bus services enhancements.
If some Expressway services are discontinued at local level the NTA will, as our track record proves, step in and ensure that local demands for public transport are met. When Expressway route 5 was terminated and Expressway route 7 was curtailed in 2015, the authority put a number of services in place by extending some existing Bus Éireann PSO services and by tendering new PSO services and new local link services. If there are any changes to Expressway services, we will carry out a similar assessment and not leave any rural communities behind.
I trust that we can answer any queries that arise.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I now invite Mr. Tim Duggan to speak on behalf of the Department of Social Protection.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it today on the matter of the Department of Social Protection's free travel scheme. Unfortunately, due to other commitments the Minister for Social Protection is not available to attend today and he sends his apologies. My colleagues, Miriam Finnegan, Darragh Doherty and Peter O’Reilly work on the policy and operational sides of the free travel scheme.
The free travel scheme was established in 1967 and permits travel for free on most CIE public transport services, Luas and up to 80 private operators. Free travel is also available on cross-Border journeys and within Northern Ireland. It is available to people aged over 66 years, to carers and to people in receipt of disability allowance, blind pension and invalidity pension. There are currently just under 875,000 customers directly eligible for free travel and when companion and spousal passes are taken into account this brings the total potential eligibility up to over 1.4 million.
In 2017, it is estimated that payment of €61 million will be made to the CIE group. The apportionment of payment among the three constituent companies, Bus Éireann, Bus Atha Cliath and Iarnród Éireann, is a matter for the CIE group to determine and the Department has no role in that. In addition, it is estimated that payments will be made under the scheme of €8.5 million to private operators, €3.9 million to Luas, €1.5 million to the rural transport programme and €1.7 million for cross-Border travel, which is paid to Translink and a private operator.
In 2012 the then Ministers for Social Protection and Transport, Tourism and Sport established an interdepartmental working group to review the free travel scheme. The review was carried out at a time of fiscal constraint to examine and report on the operation, sustainability, effectiveness and future development of the free travel scheme. By the time the report was finalised in October 2014, the economic position had improved significantly and the report and its recommendations were not considered by the then Ministers or the Government and it does not at this stage represent Government policy. The Minister has made it clear on many occasions that he considers the free travel scheme to be an invaluable support for older people and people with disabilities, with a significant role to play in promoting social inclusion and preventing isolation. He has highlighted his full commitment to maintaining the free travel scheme and there are no plans to make changes to it at this time.
Funding for the free travel scheme was capped at 2010 levels under the Programme for National Recovery 2011–2014. In budget 2016 an additional €3 million was made available to allow new entrants to the scheme or to ensure services were maintained where there had been changes to routes. CIE submitted a request to the Department in September 2016 for increased funding. The Department ensured this submission was included in the budgetary considerations at the time, but given the many competing demands for funding in budget 2017, the Government was unable to increase funding for the scheme.
The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport has written to the Minister for Social Protection asking that consideration be given to reviewing the funding arrangements and level which was last set in 2010 and proposed that the Departments engage further on the matter. This engagement is under way and further meetings are planned between the Departments and the National Transport Authority to review the payment mechanisms underpinning the free travel scheme. The final decisions onthe funding of the scheme will be a matter for the Government.
I am happy to discuss any issue the committee would like to raise.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I welcome both delegations. I am disappointed that the talks at the Workplace Relations Commission are not looking good and that it looks as though a strike will happen. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, as the major shareholder, should engage with all parties, even in a mediating role, to avert a strike that would be in nobody's interests.
Ms Graham has stated that since 2011 the NTA has rejected almost as many applications for licences on key routes as it has granted. What process is used to grant a licence for a route and what are the reasons for refusing a licence?
Ms Anne Graham:
We look, in particular, at the level of demand for a service. The first thing we check is whether there is demand, or potential demand, from customers for the service and then what the impact would be on existing PSO services, in particular. These are main issues we consider when we make a decision whether to grant a licence. On intercity routes, we made a determination that there was a demand for the type of service being requested - an express, limited stop service - and we have been proved right, given the passenger growth achieved on these services.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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What steps or measures does the authority take to ensure on key routes served by both Bus Éireann and private operators that they are on a level playing field and that neither is disadvantaged when competing on the same route?
Ms Anne Graham:
They are both independent operators. If Bus Éireann provides commercial services such as the Expressway service, it does so as a private operator and the same applies to the other operators. They compete in how they operate. We determine in the licence where operators stop and the timetables associated with these services. Beyond that, in terms of conditions, they are down to the private operators in what they provide.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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There have been many reports lately on Expressway routes being discontinued owing to losses. Yesterday, it was reported in The IrishTimesthat the Dublin to Clonmel route, with the Athlone to Westport and Dublin to Derry routes, would be discontinued. The NTA's submission to the committee states: "If it is the case that some Expressway services are discontinued at local level, the NTA will, as our track record proves, step in and ensure local demands for public transport are met". Will Ms Graham elaborate on this? What action would the authority take in this scenario?
Ms Anne Graham:
I gave an example in my opening statement of how we had gone about addressing the withdrawal of route 5. We examined the services that remained following the withdrawal of the route, the demand for services through all of the towns that were to be left behind and the different mechanisms we could use to provide additional services, for example, through an amendment of the PSO contract with Bus Éireann in order that the company could alter routes to provide services locally or through tendering for new PSO services or new rural transport services. This was done successfully in the case of route 5 to the extent that the service level improved for a number of towns formerly serviced by the route. We will carry out the same process if the three Expressway routes to which the Deputy referred are withdrawn.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Graham. I have a few questions for Mr. Duggan. There has been a great deal of scaremongering recently by Opposition Members about the free travel scheme. My constituency office has been inundated with calls and other correspondence from concerned constituents who fear that the scheme will be abolished. There were even reports that it was planned to introduced a €50 charge for the travel pass. I spoke to the Minister for Social Protection who gave me a commitment that there would be no changes to the current scheme. It would be helpful to the committee and particularly Opposition Members if Mr. Duggan could confirm that no discussion has taken place to amend the scheme and to clarify that there are no plans to make changes.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Duggan has stated an estimated €61 million will be paid to the CIE Group in 2017 under the free travel scheme and €8.5 million to private operators. Will he explain how these figures are arrived at?
Mr. Tim Duggan:
In the case of private operators, it is done through surveying. If private operators choose to participate in the scheme, they must undertake a survey under the direction of the Department for approximately six months. Based on the findings of the survey and subsequent negotiations, a rate is arrived at. It used to be that way for CIE up until 1973, but from then on a different approach was taken, whereby the payment was based on the provision of services. It is, therefore, a service charge rather than a per journey charge. The rate has been extended and enhanced in the years since based on additional or expanded services provided by CIE. For example, when Luas joined the scheme in 2004, an additional €3.1 million was paid to facilitate free travel on that service. A total of €1.4 million was offset against the payment to the CIE Group because of the transfer of passengers from one set of services to another. When peak time restrictions for all CIE bus services were removed in September 2006, an additional annual cost of €1.15 million was agreed and added to the free travel bill.
Similar adjustments were not made for the introduction of the DART in 1984 or for the development of additional services on intercity rail under the Transport 21 initiative, but each time there is a new service or an expansion of a service, it is open to CIE to request a renegotiation of the rate with us.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Following on from my previous question, how often can private operators request a review of the amount received under the free travel pass scheme?
Mr. Tim Duggan:
Essentially any time they like, but they would have to convince us the circumstances had changed sufficiently for us to consider undertaking surveys because it is quite a significant piece of work to undertake a survey of a route or a set of routes. Consequently, if an operator requests one, we would have to be reasonably convinced that it is worth doing. A period of six months must have elapsed to conduct a survey. If a survey was conducted, for example, at the end of 2016, we would be fairly reluctant to undertake another one in the first half of 2017, or even in 2017 in total, unless there were very good reasons to do so.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Have many operators taken that up?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Just three?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I know from the reports in yesterday's newspapers that the consultant firm, Steer Davies Gleave, has commissioned a report for Bus Éireann advising it on route closures and depot closures. It would be helpful to the committee if we could get a copy of that report and discuss it in detail along with the representatives of Bus Éireann. It has also been reported that the depot in my local town of Dundalk is supposed to be one of those suggested for closure. There is a lot of scaremongering going on. I am very disappointed that the newspapers can give us these details. Is Mr. Duggan aware of any depots being closed or anything in that area? When something starts off, there is a kind of snowball effect and it keeps rolling on. In my constituency office in Dundalk people are very concerned about the depot in Dundalk being closed. Will Mr. Duggan elaborate on that for me please?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I know.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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This has been going on for two or three years. These are people's jobs. People are very concerned about the situation. Where did this idea about depots closing come from? Why did these things come in to the main here? I am very disappointed. Will Ms Graham confirm to me today that she has no intention whatsoever of closing a depot like Dundalk?
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman and I welcome all our guests here this morning. I will begin with Ms Graham of the NTA. Who funds the NTA? What is its staffing number and what is its remit? In her opening address she said the remit of the NTA "is to regulate and develop the provision of integrated public transport services", as she has outlined it, "by public and private operators in the State, to secure the development and implementation of an integrated transport system within the Greater Dublin Area, and to contribute to the effective integration of transport and land use planning across the State". Does it not have a responsibility to regulate and develop an integrated public transport service outside the Dublin area?
Ms Anne Graham:
We do have that remit in terms of integration of services because we regulate all public transport services throughout the State. What that refers to is the development of the infrastructure related to public transport service delivery. We have different functions in the greater Dublin area because we manage the investment in that area. We manage the investment on behalf of the Department in the regional cities. That is the only difference in terms of the greater Dublin area as against outside it. It relates to investment and infrastructure. Regulation and integration of services are Statewide.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Is the NTA required to regulate an integrated service outside of Dublin?
Ms Anne Graham:
We are trying to achieve integration of services, but we obviously have more control over the services that we tender than over those that are licensed. Decisions can be made to withdraw licensed services whereas decisions related to public service obligation, PSO, tender services and any changes made to them are ours.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The NTA either has a responsibility to ensure there is an integrated service outside the greater Dublin area or it does not.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will Ms Graham address the annual budget and staff numbers of the NTA?
Ms Anne Graham:
We have an approved staff complement of 91. We also outsource some of our activities, so a number of our activities are provided by service providers. Our overall budget, which includes the provision of public transport services, is approximately €600 million. We manage the PSO budget and also the investment budget.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Graham has said the NTA's role in issuing licenses is to determine timetables and stopping places for licensed services. If somebody, be it Bus Éireann or a private contractor, gets a license based on certain timetables and stopping in certain locations, then goes back to the NTA and shows it is not commercially viable, what consequences can the NTA impose as an authority to ensure it carries out its obligations based on the application that it made?
Ms Anne Graham:
It is their decision to make. If the service is not commercially viable, they are not obliged to continue with that service. They may make a decision to withdraw or amend their licence by reducing the stopping points or they may make a decision to withdraw their licence altogether. We have no way to stop that under the legislation. That is a decision made by the private operator itself.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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To be clear, there are no consequences for somebody who tenders for a particular route to service particular towns at particular times if they come back and say it is not commercially viable to continue. The NTA has no way of forcing them or penalising them. There are no consequences for them.
Ms Anne Graham:
I make the distinction that where services are tendered by us, any changes to the timetables are regulated by us and we make the decisions on that. Where there are licensed services, which are commercial services, that make a decision to withdraw, there are no consequences for the operator. There are consequences for us in terms of trying to ensure there are services to those communities if they are left without services. That is where we step in to try to ensure that, if there is a public service obligation in those areas, we provide the services for those communities.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Graham has said the NTA has a responsibility to regulate and develop an integrated public transport system throughout the island of Ireland. Would she not then feel that the proposed cuts to routes that came out of the talks on Monday would have the potential to cut and disintegrate the network? Has she been informed of these potential cuts? What is her position on these cuts? If these cuts are to proceed, what are her plans to address the shortfall?
Ms Anne Graham:
The withdrawal of any service is not something we want to see because we want to have as many public transport services available to communities as possible, but we have been informed of the potential for the withdrawal of three of the Expressway routes. We are assessing the potential impact of those withdrawals, what services currently serve those corridors and what services need to be put in place to serve the local areas and local towns.
However, we have not made any final decisions on that and the work is still ongoing in terms of the replacement services in those areas.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Graham spoke about route 5. What area did that route cover?
Ms Anne Graham:
Route 5 went from Waterford to Dublin via Enniscorthy. It was an Expressway route that was terminated in 2015. A number of towns, including Enniscorthy, would have had reductions in services and we served that by extending one of the public service obligation, PSO, services, which was route 132. We then tendered with Wexford Local Link. It introduced a number of rural transport services to connect the towns of Clonroche, Bunclody and Tullow to Enniscorthy and New Ross and then for onward connections on route 4, which is an Expressway service. As we manage the rural transport programme and the contracts with Bus Éireann on its PSO, we can make a number of different interventions to ensure that local communities continue to have services. In some of those towns there was an increased level of service and connectivity as a result of the provisions we made.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Graham would seem to be at variance with the Minister who said on a radio programme in Waterford on 17 February that replacement services by the NTA may not be as frequent or as comfortable as those of Bus Éireann.
Ms Anne Graham:
Obviously, we would try to ensure that the towns are served to the level the demand requires. It may not be the case that one would have the same level of service as an Expressway but it could be the case that one might have better connections to one's local towns or the larger towns with good onward connectivity. Our responsibility is to ensure that the level of connectivity is continued to the level required for the communities in those areas.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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When an Expressway service is removed, I suppose it is because it is not making money. I do not suggest the public transport service needs to make money. It needs to be subsidised but if it is not making money and the National Transport Authority, NTA, is tendering out a process, I assume it is subventing-----
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Ultimately, the State will end up paying-----
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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-----and perhaps subventing a private operator to operate a service in some instances, although perhaps not in that instance. When Bus Éireann moved out of Portlaoise, a private operator was brought in and subvented.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I have two final questions, the first of which is on the length of time it takes to access and modify a route. As Ms Graham is aware as I brought it to her attention previously, it took the NTA 12 months to modify a timetable for a commuter route between Mullingar and Dublin, which would not give me hope that it is responding to market demand. Has the NTA set down a timeframe for the length of time it will take to modify routes?
Second, the NTA carried out a review of the licensing system. Does that demonstrate that the current licensing system is fair and equitable? Ms Graham said it has increased passenger numbers, and that is to be welcomed but she did not allude to the fact that it has increased the capacity on the routes by approximately 120% in the case of the Dublin to Cork route while passenger numbers have only increased by 61%. There is an oversupply currently, whether Ms Graham cares to admit it or not.
Ms Anne Graham:
With regard to the timeframe in terms of making the changes, the service the Deputy refers to is the 115, which is a contracted route that Bus Éireann provides. As the Deputy will be aware, we have been working with Bus Éireann to try to develop that route and further changes are being proposed to make the service better for the customers on that route.
In terms of a licensed service, we set down guidelines we try to achieve in terms of amendments to licensed services and try to meet our target of eight weeks for approvals of amendments to those licences. Some of them can be quite complicated in terms of assessments and the process may take a little longer.
If Bus Éireann decides to withdraw some of its Expressway services we have indicated that we will try to ensure that if any replacement services are required, they will be in place before Bus Éireann withdraws its services.
We would not agree there is over-capacity in terms of the routes. Providing the seat capacity that the Deputy estimates, which is over 100%, and having a 60% passenger journey growth is a very successful result in terms of public transport delivery.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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My next questions are for Mr. Duggan from the Department of Social Protection. With regard to the Department of Social Protection, I remind my colleague here on the committee that it was his party colleague, Deputy Daly, who first mooted the introduction of a €50 charge for the free travel scheme. If he wants to tackle anybody about scaremongering, therefore, he might bring it up later at the parliamentary party meeting, although I think they have more pressing issues to discuss.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I have a pressing issue as well. The Deputy has only two minutes left to ask his questions.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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On the free travel scheme, Mr. Duggan spoke about the way the funding is paid to the CIE group and that it has not been reviewed since 1973. I may have picked that up in the wrong way-----
Mr. Tim Duggan:
No. Up to 1973, the allocation was calculated on the basis of conducting surveys but since 1973, that has not been the approach taken. That does not mean it has not been reviewed or that it has not been increased. In fact, it has been reviewed and increased very substantially since then.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is now based on the number of people accessing the scheme, is that correct?
Mr. Tim Duggan:
No. It is more a service charge than a count of the number of people on the scheme. It is a factor that is considered, and when CIE previously made submissions for increases in the payment it was done on the basis of some increase in numbers but primarily fare increases that had occurred. On that basis, it sought increases in the allocation from the free travel scheme.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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What mechanisms does the Department have in place? Mr. Duggan said that 80 private operators are availing of the free travel scheme. Three companies sought a review in 2014.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
I am sorry. I had intended to come back to that. I may have slightly misinterpreted Deputy Fitzpatrick's question. Three new applications since 2014 have resulted in surveys but since the cap was lifted, 26 operators have been surveyed as part of our normal review of operations and we have written to a further ten operators who have not been surveyed yet requesting them to conduct such surveys.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That is the question I was going to ask, namely, how often do surveys take place? I attended a party meeting last night at which this came up. There are private operators who took up the free travel scheme in the past but when people present their free travel scheme card now, they are told the operators are no longer taking it. What mechanisms are in place to ensure that private operators who are in receipt of funding to provide free travel provide it?
I am conscious of the time and I will conclude on this point. With regard to the private contractors, it all done based on a survey. How do we know that we are getting value for the money we are paying the private contractors? How can we be sure that they are providing the service and that people can avail of free travel? The funding levels have been capped since 2010. I would be interested to know the number of people that availed of free travel in 2010 and the number that are eligible for free travel in 2017.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
There is a programme of surveys every year and in addition to those surveys there are inspections, many of which are unannounced.
The combination of three factors, surveys and inspections, together with the ability for people to make complaints to us, allow us to be fairly certain that the services are being provided as agreed with those private operators. As I said in my opening statement, there are now just under 875,000 customers eligible to avail of free travel. In 2007 that number was just over 637,000, so in the ten years since 2007 it is a 37% increase, which is substantial.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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There is no corresponding increase for the providers.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the additional passengers who are availing of this scheme in the period 2010 to 2017. In the context of what is going on in Bus Éireann at the moment and how it is haemorrhaging money, there is a need to identify why the increase in passengers is not being matched by an increase in funding to carry them.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
It is not quite that simple. According to CIE, since 2007 there has been a 10% increase in the number of passengers from the free travel scheme. In the same period the increase of funding has been significantly in excess of 10%. I am not saying that the numbers is the only factor. In 2007 the payment to CIE was €52.5 million and according to CIE the number of passenger journeys was just over 36.5 million. In 2015, the payment to CIE was just over €61 million and the number of passenger journeys was just over 40 million. There has been a 10% increase in the number of passenger journeys but the amount of the payment was significantly in excess of 10%. It is not as simple as equating one with the other. There are also fare increases in that period of time to be taken into consideration.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The most telling aspect thus far this morning was the statement from the NTA about private operators where it said they were not obliged to continue a service if it is not commercially viable, that the licence can be withdrawn. Is that not what we have said all along? Is that not what we said was the difference between private operators and a public transport network? If we continue on the path we are on of axing public transport routes, we are leaving them at the behest of private operators who can withdraw their licence a week later if they wish. That is very significant because it adds to the argument of public transport being there as a public service to provide transport on routes that are not commercially viable.
Would the NTA accept that the over-staturation of routes has contributed significantly to the financial crisis? It would be foolish not to but the NTA has been reluctant so far to accept that or to admit to it publicly. On the review of all the licences to private operators, would the NTA publish that review or could the committee have sight of it? It seems strange that, particularly on the loss-making routes, with all the goings on over the last three or four months, the NTA has not been forthright in pointing to this detailed review on all routes so we can have the details to scrutinise them. We could then determine whether the over-saturation is linked to the loss-making and so on. I wonder if we could get a commitment on that.
The NTA is the Government policy implementer and in implementing policy I am sure it would recognise that it has contributed to this financial crisis. Given the calls by the unions over the past three or four months to have all stakeholders around the table for negotiations, why has the NTA been so unwilling thus far to engage, especially in view of the fact that it is the implementer of the Government policy? It has been part of the problem in creating the crisis and I do not understand its reluctance thus far to helping to find a resolution.
On the free travel pass, can the NTA confirm if there is a different subsidy given to private operators than to the public transport network? On the travel pass not being accepted on certain routes by certain private operators, would that not be something the NTA would have checked before granting a licence? Why grant a licence to a private operator which was unwilling to use the facility of the free travel pass? Does the NTA know the percentage of private operators who are not taking the free travel pass?
On route closures, can the NTA confirm how many routes it plans to close completely or how many are earmarked? The reason I am raising this issue is the Dublin to Derry route, I think it is called the X3. It is part of Government's National Framework Policy to integrate connectivity between Dublin and the north west and it seems that if the NTA goes ahead with closing the Dublin to Derry route it would be going against Government policy in this area. I am seeking the rationale behind that and all the other routes that it has identified. The NTA has not said what routes are involved and it would be helpful if it said which routes it had targeted and that it planned to axe in view of the adverse effect it will have on people across the community.
I find it confusing that the NTA has said several times that while it plans to cut back on Bus Éireann services it will not leave any rural community behind. What is the plan there? It will not leave any rural community behind. Will there be a service that is free of charge? How is it going to provide a service or give a commitment to not leave rural Ireland behind if there is going to be a cost? If there is already a service available why is the NTA removing a service to replace it with another service that is going to cost possibly even more money?
Ms Anne Graham:
The Deputy has asked me to address a number of issues. I indicated that a private operator which has a licence service is not obliged to continue that service if it is unviable on a commercial basis. It could be for other reasons that it would want to withdraw from the service. This is covered by the legislation under which we operate on behalf of the Government. There is no doubt that there is more protection for services that are subject to a PSO contract and any changes in regard to those services needs our approval. The only time we would want to consider that would be if we were not in a position to fund services. We try to protect as many public transport services as we can because it is in our interest to make sure there are as many people as possible using public transport, but we do not have the same level of control over a licence service as we do over a subsidised service.
I do not accept that there is over-saturation on the intercity routes. We have introduced some competition in those markets because there has been a demand for it.
There has been a demand for customers to have shorter journeys, using the motorway network to provide services from city to city, and there has been growth in that market because some operators have responded to that demand by seeking licences. In thinking about the public transport customer, we thought it was necessary to provide the licences related to those services.
I am not sure what the Deputy means about carrying out a review of licensed operators. We have not carried out a review of the different services. We have undertaken a review of the legislation as it stands and what we would like to see in terms of changes to the legislation to ensure we have a better regulation of the licensed market. That is the review that has been carried out by the National Transport Authority, NTA. We have not looked at individual licences. We track them in that we know what licences exist and we seek basic information relating to those services to try to produce statistics on their growth, which we publish on a yearly basis. We have not carried out a detailed analysis of all the routes and we do not propose to do that at this stage.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could I propose, from the point of view of the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport, that the NTA would carry out such a review?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have just outlined a review of all licences issued to private operators across all routes with a particular focus on loss-making routes.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise, I am not talking about private operators; I am talking about the public transport network.
Ms Anne Graham:
The contracted services, not the licensed services. There is a difference between those services. We have the information associated with the network of contracted services that Bus Éireann provides but we do not have the commercial information relating to the licensed services that are provided under licence to the authority.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps I am not making myself clear or perhaps Ms Graham is misunderstanding me. I am talking about the licences that were issued through the NTA to take over from the public transport network. In certain cities there are three bus services - Bus Éireann and two private operators - leaving at the same time. There are three licences on that particular route. I am asking for a review of all the licences issued on all the routes but with particular focus on those Bus Éireann routes that have suffered a financial loss since those licences came into effect. I do not think that it is that complex. I want a review of all the licences on all those routes from the day we started issuing licences. The NTA knows all this anyway, and that is why I said I found it strange that it has never been published.
Ms Anne Graham:
I am still at a loss as to what exactly we are looking at. We can provide the committee with a list of all the licences, the starting point and the timetables associated with them. That information is publically available. I am just not sure what other information is required by the Deputy.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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To clarify, the Deputy is saying that the NTA has a number of routes on which Bus Éireann Expressway service is clearly making a loss.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is incredibly hard to believe. The NTA and Bus Éireann have been meeting regularly over the past months discussing this very crisis. How could the company define its financial crisis for 2014, 2015 and 2016 without giving a breakdown of the cause of its financial crisis? Did the NTA not ask what routes were loss-making and when those routes started to lose money?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We might have to go down the freedom of information route because it is incredible that there is such a reluctance to give a commitment to carry out a review. This has played a significant part in the development of this financial crisis in the first place. I have never witnessed anything like this.
Ms Anne Graham:
I am not being obstructive but all I am trying to do is to clarify exactly what the Deputy wants. We can certainly make available the information we have available on licensed services. We do not have any commercially sensitive information relating to its finances. That is not available.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking about a public transport network which uses public money.
Ms Anne Graham:
Including Bus Éireann's commercial services, which are Expressway, what we have now and what we have been given information about to assist us to prepare for the withdrawal of licences are the three routes that have been identified by Bus Éireann that are already in the public domain. They are the routes we are trying to assess to ascertain whether we can put in additional services. That is the information that we have. We do not have detailed information on what are the losses associated with those routes. That remains with the company because it is commercially sensitive information. We would not want to have that information and we would not want to have it for any other private operator either. That remains with the companies. We analyse general statistics on a yearly basis concerning services, passenger numbers, the growth in passenger numbers, whether they are wheelchair accessible services and general information related to the commercial licensed market. We do not seek any information related to the finances of those companies. That is why that information is not available. We will make available to this committee any information that we have available in terms of licensed services.
The rationale for the decision to withdraw routes is again for Bus Éireann to make. It concerns that company's licences and commercial business and it makes the decision on what they withdraw and do not withdraw. Our responsibility is to ensure there is a public transport service and to put in place what might be replacement services. That will probably come at a cost to the State because we do not get those services for free. If we do expand the existing PSO network of services or if we have to tender services, that comes at a cost. Obviously that would be offset against revenue that would be accrued.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the case that the NTA is removing one service and replacing it with another?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is what Ms Graham just said.
Ms Anne Graham:
A decision in terms of removal is made by the commercial operator to remove the service if it considers it to be not viable. That is the decision Bus Éireann is making. What we are obliged to do is provide services. If there is a PSO in place, which we will determine, then we put in place services. There is a cost associated with those services. When we look at the overall public transport network, a proportion of that is provided by licensed operators and they do not charge the State for that other than a subsidy if they carry free travel. That comes at no overall subsidy to the State. If we were to provide services on foot of a withdrawal of those services, it comes at a cost to the State to provide a PSO. That is the network of services that we have in Ireland.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We are well over time now.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I had asked another couple of questions on the travel pass and the different subsidy given for those.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The question was whether a different subsidy is given to private operators for the free travel pass.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I also wanted to comment on the Dublin to Derry route.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We are considerably over time now, to be fair to other members and the other people who are waiting to come in. Ms Graham should answer those questions quickly please. I have raised the issue of front-loading questions previously. It is not fair on the other members. You are eating into other people's time; people who are waiting and have other business.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps we should look at extending time because this is not satisfactory.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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As a committee, there are questions that we try to ask as a committee. One cannot ask a list of ten questions and then expect to get the ten answers in the time he or she is allocated. I have raised this a number of times before. It is not fair on other members.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We will have to extend the time, perhaps.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I will allow discretion on this if we can get an answer in no more than 30 seconds.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
Payments to all operators under the free travel scheme are done on the basis of fares forgone, not on the basis of journeys. Discount levels are applied in reaching agreement with each operator, depending on a range of factors. Different discounts are applied to different services. For instance, Luas is discounted by 15% at peak and by 40% off-peak. Córas Iompair Éireann, CIE, is discounted at 40%. Private operators are discounted at 30%. Iarnród Éireann is discounted at 10%. Cross-Border bus services are discounted at 31% and Northern Ireland rail or Translink is discounted at 10%. It depends on the nature of the service.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could we get a copy of that breakdown from the Department?
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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A private operator was quoted in a national newspaper a couple of weeks indicating that he got 70%. Bus Éireann gets 40%. To clarify, is Mr. Duggan saying that there are circumstances where private operators would get a greater percentage back on free travel passes than Bus Éireann? Is that possible?
Mr. Tim Duggan:
The discount that applies to CIE services, which includes Bus Éireann, is 40%. The discount to private operators is currently 30%. There is a difference. They are not comparable in the true sense because the amount that is paid is based on surveys, in the case of private operators, and, in the case of CIE, it is based on a service charge. They are not directly comparable. One could ask why there is a difference in the discounting rate of 40% and 30%. I suspect that it is historical and arises from when an attempt was made years ago to encourage private operators to get into the business of providing travel services to people who are eligible for free travel.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Mr. Duggan is saying there might have been a historical reason a Minister or a Department said, at a certain stage, there was a need for a boost for private operators and to cut them a better deal in reality than the deal that was cut for Bus Éireann. He is saying that deal is basically still in place. Is that correct?
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I hear what Mr. Duggan is saying, that essentially they are not directly comparable but that, all things being equal, it is not a level playing pitch. There is a better deal there for the private operators. Mr. Duggan would not disagree with that.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
I would not agree with it either in the sense that they have to undergo quite extensive surveys and inspections that CIE does not have to undertake. When I say it is not directly comparable, I really mean that it is not directly comparable, and it would be a mistake to try to put them in the same bucket, so to speak. They are quite different approaches.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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That is quite interesting. I have a question for Ms Graham. It is about the public service obligation, PSO, contract that was originally drawn up for the private company, M&A Coaches. It had the Portlaoise to Cashel replacement routes. Did the original contract have an arrangement whereby old age pensioners, OAPs, who travelled with M&A Coaches would have to pay-----
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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At the outset, I mentioned identifying third parties and people who are not here. We do not want to do that. If the Deputy has an example, he can give it without referring to or identifying individuals involved. We would be conscious of these things. Maybe we could strike the reference from the record?
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Did the original contract for the private company which had the replacement run from Portlaoise to Cashel involve a concessionary 50% payment for OAPs?
Ms Anne Graham:
That is correct. The free travel scheme was closed to new services at the time. We were not in a position to request assistance from the Department of Social Protection for those services. We put in place a concessionary fare to try to reduce the cost to the State of delivering that service. That has changed since 2014. We are in receipt of funds from the Department of Social Protection for those services and we able to ensure there is no payment by free travel pass holders.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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The CEO of Bus Éireann, Mr. Hernan, stated yesterday that Bus Éireann faces potential insolvency by May. How does Ms Graham feel about that?
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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If Bus Éireann was to become insolvent, what kind of cost would we be looking at? I understand the Bus Éireann workforce of 2,600 workers pays a little less than €60 million a year to the State in payroll taxes. There would be cost from redundancy pay and social welfare payments. What is Ms Graham's ballpark figure for the cost in that circumstance?
Ms Anne Graham:
We have not done any estimate of what the cost would be. We provide a €40 million subsidy to Bus Éireann to provide services on its PSO contracts. I have not got the figure for fare revenue to give a total operating price for those. I can certainly get that. The continuation of provision of those services is of concern to us. We have to make sure that they continue beyond any potential insolvency.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I reckon the cost would be measured in the hundreds of millions of euro.
The unions involved in this dispute have pinpointed a potential €9 million to €10 million that could be used to address the crisis and avert the strike. There are two measures, one from the Department and one from the National Transport Authority, NTA.
The first measure is that Bus Éireann would be compensated for the towns and villages that it services when it goes off motorways on intercity routes when they are competing with private operators. For example, it cost €440,000 to bring in private operators to serve the towns and villages that were lost when Bus Éireann stopped going off-motorway on the Dublin to Cork route. So the suggestion is that it would be compensated for the other intercity routes.
The other proposal is that if the free travel pass percentage payment were to be increased from 40% to 80%, those two initiatives would produce a sum of money that could avert the crisis, avert the strike and avert the potential of a company going to the wall by May which would cost hundreds of millions of euro. Would Ms Graham care to comment on those two proposals?
Ms Anne Graham:
I will comment on the first proposal because we are not responsible for the second proposal. It is not possible to compensate for what might be public service obligations in a commercial service under current legislation. One can have either a license service, which is fully commercial with no State subsidy, or a contracted service. Those are the regulations and legislation that we have. It would be considered state aid if we were to compensate. We would have to make that available across all operations, including all license services, which could come at considerable cost to the State.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Could it be covered in the PSO?
Ms Anne Graham:
If it was a public service obligation service, we could subsidise that. A company cannot move a license service into a public service obligation service automatically by agreement with us. We are obliged to publicly tender a service if it is considered a new public service obligation service.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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The second question, about the free travel pass, is for Mr. Duggan.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
I want to clarify that it is not that CIE is paid 40%. The discount that is applied is 40%. It would not be moving from 40% to 80%. I suspect what they are suggesting is that the discount rate be reduced from 40% to 20%.
I said in my opening statement that the Department is engaged with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the NTA in considering how the funding is organised and structured. Based on this, we will take information to the Minister and the Government. If the Government then decides to do something about this, as Deputy Barry has suggested, that will result in increased funding to CIE, but it will also mean that it is new, additional money that the Department will require for the additional funding. This is a matter for Government.
Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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The idea that the company could face insolvency, which has been put more firmly on the agenda since yesterday with the tighter timescale announced by Mr. Hernan, which would cost the State hundreds of millions of euro for the sake of an injection of less than €10 million, which could be done by some relatively simple measures, adds a real sense of urgency to the negotiations between Mr. Duggan's Department and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. If it comes to a strike next week, for the unions and working people in this country, and this includes rail workers and workers in Bus Éireann, the bus workers cannot afford to lose this dispute. The precedent of pay cuts of €7,000 plus would be horrendous, and whatever needs to be done should be done for the sake of solidarity. I put it to Mr. Duggan that these negotiations need to be speeded up if there is any interest at Government level in avoiding a dispute. However, I suggest there is no such interest. I suggest there is a hidden agenda which involves a low pay company and privatisation.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Barry for sticking to the time. Regarding the question Mr. Duggan was asked, what legislation are we talking about?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is that the regulation that prohibits the witnesses from addressing the matter raised by Deputy-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I suspect some of the questions are being directed to the wrong person, that a political decision has been taken in this regard and that the NTA operates according to the legislation to which Ms Graham has just referred. Therefore, it is the political decision that underpins and is the real driver of the NTA's operations, and the NTA just implements the measures in the legislation. The point is that we need to talk to the Minister about this because this is a political decision and it concerns his Department.
Regarding Bus Éireann, was a risk analysis carried out regarding the State's exposure to competition and the potential withdrawal of services happening now? If there is a loss of services, they will have to be replaced and a PSO will possibly kick in. Was a quantification of risk analysis carried out in this regard?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Could we have a copy of the analysis?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There are historical contractual obligations relating to the likes of Bus Éireann. In conducting the risk analysis, would the NTA have been comparing like with like in terms of the rates of pay and conditions and so on? Were these elements factored into the analysis?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This could be taken as a decision to reduce, in the medium term, terms and conditions, rates of pay-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is not the case if the company has historical contracts.
Ms Anne Graham:
If it has contracted with us for the delivery of PSO services, at that point we seek to ensure the State is getting best value for money for the services provided with the assistance of the subsidy, in this case State funding. However, the commercial aspect is purely the business of the operator to ensure it gets the most efficient service to generate revenue for its company.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Three routes are threatened with withdrawal, and there is a possible insolvency issue if the board of Bus Éireann cannot sign off on the company's accounts. If there is to be a loss of service, we are into insolvency territory and the State will have to intervene because people cannot be left without services. Has there been any quantification of the costs in this regard? Is it down to contractors' pitches or does the NTA design the contract, tell the contractor what the PSO service is and then invite the contractor to tender for the service? If the latter, the contractor tenders for a service that is not commercial. Does Ms Graham know the costs of those services at this stage? Have they been quantified?
Ms Anne Graham:
It very much depends on the level of replacement services required, what those services are and who will provide or manage them. We have some benchmark costs on the basis of the services we have tendered already for the other replacement services but we have not yet decided the kinds of replacement services that would be put in place, so we have no benchmark cost in that regard at this time.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Those services therefore might not be comparable. They could be reduced services.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That depends on the level of current use.
Ms Anne Graham:
It also depends even on the level of potential use. We do not only consider current use. We also hope to grow the services. We made amendments to the PSO route 132 as a result of the withdrawal of route 5 by changing and extending the timetable of the former and we got significant growth on those services.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We are hearing that the free travel pass is secure, but will it be secure in cases in which there is, say, a withdrawal of a service or a reduced service and in which somebody does not have access to the service? If that is the case, the person with the free travel pass will carry 100% of the cost of the service.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This sounds like the argument made by some of the unions that they are essentially being asked to agree to reduced wages and conditions to make viable the services that will probably end up as PSO services - at least, some of them will - and be carried by the State and possibly a private contractor. Is there an unfairness to this?
Ms Anne Graham:
Again, it is up to the individual company to make decisions regarding the licensed services they provide, and the company must make the decisions as to how this works for it. We cannot comment on what those decisions might be. All we can do is consider what replacement services are required and what the likely cost would be to the State in that regard.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We need to talk to the shareholder, therefore, rather than the company directly. I presume the Minister will have the relevant information on the individual services. I presume information on the Bus Éireann services that are under threat was provided to the Minister.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Right, okay.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. The function of the NTA is to ensure that a proper transport service is provided throughout the country. Today we are talking about rural bus services and Expressway. The NTA assesses licences for routes where there is competition. There has been some discussion on the matter already in terms of an uptake in usage. In the context of the Cork to Dublin route, for example, the NTA said there was a 61% increase in usage, but it is a known fact that capacity has been increased by 111%. How can one call that fair competition when the private operator can go directly from Cork to Dublin without stopping but Bus Éireann's Expressway route must stop at certain towns. The EU Competition Commissioner is due to come before us. Recently, I noted an Expressway bus pulling into Mitchelstown with 45 people on board but only two paid fares. How can one expect a company to compete with a private operator, especially when the private operators are reluctant to take all the people with free travel passes?
Is this a way for the Minister for Social Protection to, in the future, charge people who are currently entitled to free travel? The NTA has said it would step in and provide a rural link service. The people who use the service end up paying in one way or another for it. It is all well and good to say an alternative service will be provided. The Minister has said he will not abolish free travel for old age pensioners but will charging come in the back door via the rural link buses when they are put in place? Could Ms Graham please comment?
Ms Anne Graham:
The free travel pass is accepted on all local link services. It would also be accepted on any additional local link services. There would be no charge to free travel pass holders on local link services, either the existing ones or any proposed new services.
In terms of fair competition on the intercity corridors, we still believe there is additional capacity on those corridors. There was 61% passenger growth in a short period of years and during a downturn. As a result, we believe the routes are very successful and we are particularly pleased that there has been no impact on rail services. We also believe that the additional licences have grown the public transport market and resulted in fewer people using cars to travel, for example, to travel from Dublin to Cork.
In terms of decisions that are made, it is the operators that decide what they want to deliver on the motorway network. The private operators that came forward with the Expressway services made the decision to go into that market and we accepted in half the cases that there was demand for those services. Bus Éireann could have looked at any stage to provide those kinds of services as well but chose not to do so in many cases. In terms of competition, we respond to the applications we get and we decide whether there is a demand for the services or not. However, it really is up to the operators to come forward with their plans and licence applications.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The NTA is obviously in a position to assess the validity of an application for a licence to operate a new route. Has it been informed of the routes from which Bus Éireann wants to withdraw? Given the NTA's previous experience in assessing routes, is Ms Graham not in a position to say that perhaps Bus Éireann has got it wrong in terms of eliminating a route? The NTA can determine who gets a licence because it has the figures to assess whether a route is viable but can it assess the decision by Bus Éireann to the effect that certain routes are not viable and accept the request for withdrawal?
Ms Anne Graham:
It is not for the NTA to accept the decision. It is up to Bus Éireann to make its own decision to withdraw from a route. We have to accept the situation because it is the company's commercial decision to make. We have been informed by Bus Éireann about the three routes it has identified that it may withdraw from and it is now up to us to consider what additional services need to be put in place to ensure communities are not left behind. That work is ongoing. The decision on whether to withdraw a route is Bus Éireann's to make.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Why has the National Transport Authority not extended the Leap card to encompass counties Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford? In the greater Dublin area, the Leap card functions beyond Dublin into Cavan, Granard, Tullamore and Gorey. Why is there one rule for one set of commuters on the east coast while, in the south, the Leap card does not extend beyond the city of Cork?
Mr. Tim Gaston:
The Leap card scheme has been extended across most of the country but there are still some sections where we simply have not had the funding to put the equipment onto the buses. For the Leap card to work, every bus must have a Leap card reading machine and it has not been possible to fund Bus Éireann to provide that across its entire fleet. All of the regional cities and many of the rural areas of the country are now covered by the Leap scheme, as well as all of the eastern region where Bus Éireann provides commuter services into Dublin.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Could Mr. Gaston provide a timeframe?
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Here is an example of the greater Dublin area being looked after while about people in the west and south are forgotten. Why did the NTA not start the scheme in Cork city, Limerick and Waterford?
Mr. Tim Gaston:
Cork city commuter services, Waterford city, Galway and the Sligo area are now serviced through Leap. As we get funding, we will be able to roll it out pretty much everywhere. I will come back to the point that every bus must have a Leap card reading machine before we can extend the service.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the NTA not put a proviso in contracts with private operators that their fleets must have wheelchair lifts to accommodate passengers? Some of the private operators do not have them. One operator has no bus with wheelchair access, whereas Bus Éireann has wheelchair accessibility in place. How can we allow that kind of unfair competition?
Ms Anne Graham:
We are moving in our contracted services to increase the level of wheelchair accessibility. We are going through a retendering of the local link services this year. More than 1,000 routes will be retendered. There will be an obligation in those tenders to provide a wheelchair accessible vehicle within a certain timeframe. We know that the level of wheelchair accessibility is not at the level we would like it to be in the fleet but we propose to allow a period of time in the tender for operators to get a wheelchair accessible vehicle to operate the service. While we do not have the level of accessibility currently in the rural transport services that we would like, even though it is quite high, we want to achieve a higher level of accessibility through the retendering of those services this year.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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In awarding contracts to private operators, could we not make it mandatory that they would accept the free travel pass? Some private operators do not allow the use of the free travel pass.
Ms Anne Graham:
In terms of the contracted services, which are those that we subsidise, we will ensure that the free travel passes are accepted on those services. However, this is subject to the NTA retaining the level of funding it has received from the Department of Social Protection up to now. In terms of the licensed commercial operators, whether they want to take part in the free travel scheme is a commercial decision for them. Obviously, because they do not get 100% of the fare forgone related to their services the decision for them is whether or not to accept a discount. As I said, that is a commercial for them. At this stage, those operators cannot be obliged to participate in the free travel scheme.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that commercial decisions are a matter for the private operators. The Bus Éireann service, in terms of its provision of service to isolated areas and participation in the free travel scheme, is as much a social service as a transport service. There must be fair competition on all routes. It is unfair that the main operator between Cork and Dublin Airport could decide not to provide a service to people covered by the free pass scheme.
Ms Anne Graham:
That is a commercial decision for that operator. If we were to oblige all operators to participate in the free travel scheme there would be compensation required related to that. It is up to private operators to make the decision about the type of passengers they want and whether it is in their interest to participate in the free travel scheme. It is then a matter for the Department of Social Protection whether they can be included in the scheme.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses. Last Friday, I was in Sligo where I was involved in discussion on the regional strategy up to 2040. What is the National Transport Authority's policy going forward in regard to transport for the regions and is its strategy in that regard being driven by price? The statistics show that the number of private operators across the regions is increasing, including in regard to school transport. Is the strategy to move more towards private operated services across rural Ireland?
Ms Anne Graham:
The strategy in terms of the provision of public transport services in the regions, as in throughout the State, is to have as much public transport services available as possible. Our ultimate strategy is to ensure that more people are using public transport than cars. To achieve this, we have to provide efficient and connected public transport services across the state. We accept that there are gaps in that service provision and that better integration of services is required and we are working to improve in that regard. Our overall strategy is to ensure that depending on decisions made in terms of land use planning and where developments will occur, including housing development and other economic developments, public transport supports those developments. There is no strategy in terms of what level of that provision will be provided by private operators versus the State operators.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is it intended, as part of any strategy, to retain sufficient Bus Éireann and CIE public transport services to ensure that we do not end up with too much service provision on one side versus the other? Does the NTA propose to retain a particular percentage of public transport service provision or is it prevented from doing so under EU rules?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There is no strategy to ensure a particular percentage of the original routes are retained in the public transport sector?
Ms Anne Graham:
Not as far as I am aware. In terms of the private sector responding to the provision of public transport services, we respond to applications as they come in. We regulate for those services. We also examine the public service obligation that support those services. It is an integrated market in terms of the commercial provision of services and the subsidised State provision of services but there is no definitive on either side and we are not working towards that.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It would probably not be permitted under EU rules.
Ms Anne Graham:
In regard to direct award services, which we have with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, we are required to ensure that they are provided in the most efficient way. We also consider whether competition is required to be brought into those markets. We made a decision a number of years ago to introduce a limited amount of competition into the PSO market in order to check competitive tension. The cost associated with the direct award is whether the State is getting the best value for money. They are the only decisions that have been made in regard to the level of provision by private operators and the level of provision by the State operators.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Ms Graham referred earlier to demand in particular areas. In regard to the three routes that it appears now will be cut, I find it hard to believe that Bus Éireann has been operating on these routes for the past ten or 15 years and that it only recently came to light that they are not viable or that there is no demand for a service on those routes. Should those routes be axed, will the NTA ensure alternative provision is put in place on those routes? The areas affected are in three different parts of the country that require regional development. Will the NTA give an undertaking that if Bus Éireann axes those routes from its service it will put in place an alternative service that provides the same level of service as been available up to now?
Ms Anne Graham:
I cannot give an undertaking that the same level of service would be put in place in regard to those routes but I can indicate to the committee that we will assess the routes in terms of demand and potential demand based on what is planned for the areas affected in terms of what level of service should be put in place. That could be an increased level of service for some of the towns affected but it could also mean a reduction in services as well. All this will be done on the basis of demand and need for services. I cannot say that an exact replication of services will be put in place but I can say that we will look at what is being provided by other service providers and the public service obligation for the areas concerned.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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In regard to the award of contracts to new providers, I note that in some parts of the country the private operator is not required to service as many towns as Bus Éireann. Why is that?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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To ensure a level playing field, should the NTA not be the one making the decision?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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In regard to, say, service provision from Galway to Dublin it is likely that demand for that service will be greater in Galway city than, for example, in Moate but should there not be a level playing field across service providers in regard to the award of licence on that route?
Ms Anne Graham:
No. In regard to licensed services, a commercial decision is made by an operator. The operator puts forward an application in terms of the service he or she wants to deliver and the NTA either accepts that or accepts it with amendment. For example, we may reduce the number of stopping places on their services based on competition from other operators.
That is the kind of assessment we do. If we believe a service is required, for example, for Moate, and it is not being provided on a commercial basis, and if we believe there is a public service obligation to provide a service, then that is where we step in with a contracted service, either through existing contracted operators or through new tenders.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How could the NTA believe the service is required and Bus Éireann go into that town if a private operator will not see enough people to warrant doing so? If I had a bus I would look at starting in Galway, a stop in Athlone and then a shoot to Dublin. How can the NTA call that a level playing field? What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I come from the private sector and as a private contractor, if I was pricing that route, I would have to do the same route or else I would not on a level playing field.
Ms Anne Graham:
We are not obliged to ensure there is a level playing field in a competitive market. As I have said, the operators are operating in a competitive market. They make the decisions on what services they want to provide and where they want to provide those services. We assess them on the basis of the demand or potential demand for those services. That is when we grant the licences. Bus Éireann could also make those decisions, as it potentially will do now, with regard to withdrawing from some of its services and potentially withdrawing some of the stopping places also on some of its services. That is the competitive market in which we operate in the provision of public transport and how the market is legislated for. Beyond that, where there are gaps in the services, the NTA looks to see whether the public service obligation is required and we attempt to ensure that this gap is filled by a contracted service. This is the model that is legislated for.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I have one more question.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Be very brief because there are other speakers waiting.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does Mr. Duggan have information on the number of people who had free bus travel bus passes in 2010 and the number now?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How much extra funding was given to cover the numbers of people travelling?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We have covered this already.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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My last question is on records. Do private and public operators have a gadget to print out accurately the number of people carried rather have than surveys, which are not accurate?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to have to rush the Deputy but we have a lot of members waiting to speak. Senator Conway-Walsh has been waiting a long time.
Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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It is a very important subject and I thank the Chairman for allowing me in because I am not a member of the committee. I live in Mayo, in a rural part of the west of Ireland, and this topic is hugely important to me. Following on from Deputy Fitzmaurice's contribution, it is extremely worrying and it begs the question as to who is in control of providing public transport services to rural Ireland. It would seem that the operators make the decisions. For those of us who live in rural Ireland that is a crazy situation. It derives from being a political decision. In 2015 the Taoiseach responded to the serious issue of cutting routes by saying that buses cannot be driving around boreens. With a Government response such as that it is no wonder we are in this situation.
In regard to the €9.4 million in losses, and in context of what is happening economically and financially in the State, if the Government had not allowed the section 110 tax breaks for the vulture funds we could be running the transport service and Bus Éireann as it has been run for 37 years, without making any cuts to staff or to routes. These are the political choices being made and they need to be examined in the wider context.
I am particularly interested in and worried about the Athlone to Westport service and I want to ask the witnesses a couple of key questions on it. This was first mooted in 2015. Since then, in the marketing and the shoring up of that route, it has been said that savings of €1.1 million would be made by cutting the Athlone-Westport, Dublin-Clonmel and Dublin-Derry routes. Perhaps the NTA could give a breakdown of the savings on each of these routes and over what length of time they may be accrued. Could the witnesses also indicate if they have calculated how many extra passengers it would take to make those routes viable to make up the savings of the €1.1 million? What consultation processes took place in the time before the decision was made? When the NTA made the decision, did it take into account the Wild Atlantic Way and the millions of euro being used to market this internationally to bring people to the west of Ireland? Has the decision been made or is it just on the table? Is more consultation to take place? There is quite a lot there but I had to ask.
Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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It is a transport issue.
Ms Anne Graham:
No. There is a difference because these are commercial services. All the costs and information associated with that decision and the responsibility for marketing the service rests with Bus Éireann. Our responsibility is to see what public service obligation to provide services should remain if there is a withdrawal of Bus Éireann's commercial services from Mayo. We would consider the Wild Atlantic Way and the towns that need to be served, not just for commuters but also for tourists and visitors to the area. It would be very important for the NTA, in looking at a redesign of those services, to get the best provision of services that we can for the funding we have available.
Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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On NTA's responsibilities around the integration of the different transport systems, does it have specific information on the different changes that have been made to the routes? Have these changes been evaluated to see the extra number of passengers, the impact they have had on the original routes and how many changes have been made?
Ms Anne Graham:
The NTA would have information about the changes to licensed services and if there were any amendments to licences. That information would be available but the assessment behind that rests with the operators. As it is their commercial business, they are not obliged to give that information to us, nor do we seek it. The NTA pays a subsidy towards the subsidised contracted services that we have with Bus Éireann so if there are any changes to those services, the NTA must approve them and then we would monitor very closely, with the operator, the changes in costs, revenue, and passenger numbers on those services.
Rose Conway Walsh (Sinn Fein)
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Would the NTA force them to have consultation in those areas?
Ms Anne Graham:
It depends on the level of service change as to what level of consultation would be in place. Generally, the operators have consultation on the changes. In the context of the possible changes to the Expressway routes, the NTA would manage the consultation because we may be contracting those services or changing existing services. As we have done before, we have published an assessment of routes five and seven around what would be the replacement services. We certainly attended many local meetings to get feedback on what would be the demand and on the changes that could be made to those services.
The level of consultation undertaken depends on the type of service we are talking about. We carried out a consultation in respect of Mayo. It was the first time we did a county-wide consultation in regard to public transport services. We carried it out in 2015 and published a document on what the improvement in public transport services could be, particularly for Mayo. It was a question of ascertaining the kind of feedback we could get on service provision. We have the information available to us to assist us in planning for what could be replaced in terms of Expressway services in the area.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I welcome the delegates from the NTA. They should not take my comments personally. I am very disappointed over comments I have heard here today on giving out licences and allowing operators to decide themselves what runs to do. As elected members, our primary reason for being here today is to ensure rural people have a transport service, including a bus service. They are entitled to a public transport service, a social service, be they from Caherciveen or Dingle. The delegates said a private operator is not compelled to offer free travel to those with a free travel pass, including the disabled and elderly, and that private operators can take on whatever run they like.
I was disappointed to hear Deputy O'Keeffe talking only about Cork and the region to the east or north and not mentioning Kerry. I know he goes to Kerry every second year to Fitzgerald Stadium. We are affected in Kerry also.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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He was leaving that to the Deputy.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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That is fine.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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All roads lead to Kerry.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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When I hear about the cut affecting the route from Clonmel to Dublin, what hope have we from Caherciveen to Tralee and from Killarney to Cork? I cannot understand what has gone wrong. My daughter gets on the No. 40 bus on a Sunday evening and comes back on a Thursday or Friday. It is always full and she is standing on it most of the time. What has gone wrong? Bus Éireann representatives should be here also because it is now clear that the NTA is not getting answers from the company on what routes it will cut.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy was not here a few weeks ago.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I was not here and I am sorry. I would have been here had I known about it.
It is clear that we need an answer from Bus Éireann on the routes it is cutting. If the NTA is able to subsidise, how can it say it can consider subsidising certain routes if the operators are deciding which routes they will service? Surely the authority should decide in the first instance which routes need to be serviced.
Everyone is entitled to transport from the remotest part of Ireland. We are remote enough for anything. The only direction people in Caherciveen and Dingle can come is this way. They cannot go west through the Atlantic Ocean. The next stop is New York. We need to have a social service. The tracks have been pulled up since 1959 or 1960. It is unthinkable that we will have no connectivity from rural areas to Cork, where many people go day after day for medical services. Those affected are from very remote places and they need to travel to meet consultants and others. A condition of any grant assistance to any operator should be that it must provide the social service of accepting the free travel pass.
How is the company losing €9 million? I am not that great at sums but my view is based on the debt of €9 million. If €9 million will clear the debt, why not operate on the three routes? What is happening does not make sense.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should ask a question because others are waiting to contribute.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We were told Bus Éireann would go bust in March. The date has now been deferred until 1 May. What will happen the company's schools contract? Mother Teresa died and there is no one else to operate. What will the Department do if Bus Éireann goes bust? What contingency plan is in place for the operation of the schools contract?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We have to leave Mother Teresa out of it.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I operate a very small bus service. I continued to operate my father's business, which he was operating since 1956. It is important that I be up-front about this. Many children throughout the country will be stranded, particularly in rural areas, if the company goes bust and the school bus service will not be provided. What contingency plan is there to ensure the service will continue to be provided and that children will be taken to school?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Are there are any questions relevant to either of the delegates?
Ms Anne Graham:
Let me clarify my remarks. When I said commercial operators can decide what they want, I meant they can decide what they want to apply for. They make applications and decisions on what they apply for but we make the decisions on whether they get a licence, the towns they can serve with their licences and the timetables they can operate. It is not that they have free rein to decide what kinds of services they produce. They have free rein to decide what services they apply but not necessarily in respect of the licence they get. Then they make decisions on whether to operate the licences.
I agree with the Deputy that each person is entitled to a public transport service. We are trying to provide as many public transport services as we can based on the funding we have.
On the Kerry services, we have carried out an assessment of the services provided by Bus Éireann and the contracted services it provides, in addition to Kerry Local Link services, to try to integrate them and have better connectivity in and around Kerry. We have been successful in that. That is not to say there could not be further improvement. We are always trying to improve the services being delivered, particularly in rural areas.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
I am obviously not doing my job well enough because I believe an impression has built up that private operators are not engaging with and allowing the use of the free travel pass. Nothing could be further from the truth. I said in my opening statement that there are 80 private operators participating in the free travel scheme. Of those, 60 are bus companies. Of those, only three are public service obligation route operators. This means there are 57 operators running privately licensed routes around the country that are accepting the free travel pass in full. Therefore, the scheme is being supported by private operators throughout the country.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Tim Duggan. The NTA pays €61 million to the CIE group, €5 million to private operators, €3.9 million to Luas and €1.7 million to Translink. It pays €1.5 for the rural transport programme. How does it calculate the apportionment of the funding to the various companies, including CIE and the private operators? Is the calculation based on the fares forgone on the various routes? I understand private operators are reimbursed with 70% and that Bus Éireann, for example, is reimbursed with as little as 40%. How is the calculation made?
Mr. Tim Duggan:
We covered some of this earlier. At the moment the private operators are surveyed. Those surveys take about six months to complete. Based on the results of that survey and some negotiations with those private operators, a fee is agreed and discounted by 30%. That is how we deal with private operators.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is effectively 70%.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
The fee that is agreed is discounted by 30% so they end up getting 70% of the fee that is agreed based on surveys and negotiations. In the case of CIE, while in the early days of the scheme in the 1960s and early 1970s it was surveyed, that was discontinued. From that time on it has effectively been based on a service-type charge. That has been negotiated as services have been changed, expanded and enhanced over the years by the CIE group. The amount of money that has been apportioned to CIE from the free travel scheme has increased according to the enhancements to its services over the years.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Duggan is saying quite clearly that it is very possible if the Government applied the same process to the CIE group, in particular Bus Éireann, which is the focus today, as applies to the private operators, it would get a greatly enhanced rebate.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it being considered to be done?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We have already discussed this matter in detail.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Will it be considered to be done?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Duggan outline a timescale?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Will it be a month or two months?
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Great. I have some questions for the NTA. As we have gone over the ground previously, I will not ask why the NTA does not ensure all transport operators on licensed routes provide free travel. That is an issue the Government needs to address.
How many policy initiatives or new directives has the NTA received from the Minister, Deputy Ross, since he became Minister? Has there been any change to transport policy or has he articulated any transport policy? I presume Ms Graham would agree that transport policy is his domain and not the NTA's.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Graham. If an operator gets a licence for a multi-stop route from Cork to Dublin and finds that the competition for the non-stop service is making it impossible for it to compete on a level playing pitch, can it unilaterally make a submission to the NTA under its licence to take out some or all of the stops and still hold the licence? My understanding is that the answer is in the affirmative.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I take Ms Graham's word; she knows her job. However, I have been informed that an operator can. There is a process that has to be followed, but it is a process that has a more or less automatic answer.
Ms Anne Graham:
No, that is not correct at all. The operator of a licensed commercial service may make an application to change its licence at any time. It could be for many different reasons, but one of the applications we get is to remove stops from a particular service. That application is considered and it may or may not be granted.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Bus Éireann may claim that it is in a semi-viable situation because the NTA will not grant it a PSO for many of its Expressway routes which provide the social service of stopping in towns along the way. Therefore, it may apply to the NTA to get rid of all the uneconomic towns on the routes to save money. In doing so it would only be looking for the same kinds of licences granted to the other operators on the route, which go end to end, Dublin to Cork and so on. What approach would the NTA take to such a request?
Ms Anne Graham:
We would assess it on its merits. We would receive the application and assess that. It could be different depending on the route and the existing licensed services on that route. There is no fixed decision process. There is a process that is followed, but we would have to analyse the existing licensed services as well as the existing subsidised services on the route and make a decision on that basis. We would make a decision on the basis of whether there is demand to have additional end to end non-stop services. A good bit of assessment needs to go into that kind of process. I cannot give the Deputy a definitive answer as to what the outcome might be in such a case.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Bus Éireann, for some peculiar reason, might be told tomorrow that all these routes where it is not optimising profitability but offering the optimum service have to be done on a profit basis. If it pulled out of those and applied for a PSO on all those routes, would the NTA give it to it?
Ms Anne Graham:
The decision would not be to give it to Bus Éireann. We are not in a position to change a commercial service directly into a PSO service. That is not allowed under existing legislation, nor is it allowed under state aid rules. There would be state aid issues associated with that. If we determine that a public service obligation service is required on a particular route from which Bus Éireann is withdrawing, we can address that in a number of ways. If it is possible to extend an existing PSO service in the area, we would consider doing that. Otherwise, we would have to tender that service in the open market.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have two further very short questions. I will be very quick.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We have been here for more than two hours now.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Based on what I have heard today and the previous day, I am fascinated to discover that Bus Éireann, which services the entire State - we will discount the Dublin part of it - of about 3.4 million people who do not have any alternative comprehensive service, gets about €40 million. It works out at about €12 for every man, woman and child in the population. Bus Átha Cliath has two big advantages. The profitable and unprofitable are just thrown into one big maw, as it were. It gets €60 million to service 1.3 million people.
One would think the urban area would be much more economic, but in fact it requires a subsidy that is between three and four times higher per head of population than that spent on all the people who depend on the Bus Éireann service. It also has the big advantage that it can take the profitable with the unprofitable and it is all just thrown into one maw, whereas in the rural areas it is all separated between the economic, semi-economic, non-economic and so on. It is a pity the Minister is not here. When I asked the first question about policy directives, it was because I believe he thinks this is a good idea. I do not. I will not ask Ms Graham to comment on this.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We have had the Minister before the committee previously.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I know, but I cannot make all the meetings.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The Minister cannot come in every week, in fairness to him.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to make two final points. One of the most extraordinary NTA decisions is the fact that per kilometre for PSO services in rural areas is way higher than per kilometre for urban-based services. Those fares, at €20 return, are a huge disincentive when it could be €10 return to go the same distance for those lucky enough to live in an urban area.
We have very few services after 6 p.m., even out of the third level towns, the towns with hospitals and so on. The rural service is being run à lathe 1950s and not the 21st century, and it does not meet needs. It goes back to the question of paying €4 per head more for the urban bus public transport than the rural one. We do not have any clear commuter policy for those who need to commute 30 or 40 miles into the major urban centres of Cork, Galway, Carlow and so on.
That seems to be mind-boggling. The Bus Éireann dispute is a symptom of a much deeper disease, which is the idea that the people are down the country and any kind of a Mickey Mouse service will do because the place we need really good services is urban areas. I do not buy that. Having grown up in Dublin city and gone to live in the west, I expect my tax euro to be treated equally with everybody else. The rest of the people in rural Ireland are fed up of the two-tier society where our tax euro subsidising services in urban areas.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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I am not a member of the committee so I thank the Chairman for allowing me to speak. This is something in which I have taken a particular interest. I am based in Limerick city and I will deal with a microcosm that reflects the issue, particularly the Bus Éireann routes. There are numerous operators on the Limerick to Dublin route, with one being Bus Éireann. I will deal with one private operator as well. Annacotty is close to where I live and I know both services stop there. One of the private operators has only two stops on the way up, with one at the Kildare outlet centre and the other at the Red Cow roundabout before going to Bachelors Walk. It costs €10. Bus Éireann stops in Annacotty and does not stop at Kildare but it stops in Nenagh, Roscrea, twice in Portlaoise and then it effectively goes to the Red Cow as well. It charges €7.99 online. One route appears to be very profitable and the other is not but they are both doing the same and more or less at the same price.
One must consider the sense of equity. This question is directed at Ms Graham and Mr. Duggan. There appears to be a lack of empirical evidence on the number of people using the free travel pass on the Bus Éireann routes, whether they are pensioners, people other than pensioners and companions. There are no free travel passes used on the private operator service and everybody pays the €10. In this day and age, the fact that such information is not available is a scandal. It informs a decision regarding the public service obligation, PSO, and fairness vis-a-visthe service provided by Bus Éireann and private operators. It is almost impossible to evaluate it as a result.
Does Ms Graham believe the current PSO model is outdated? She referred to current legislation. If the two buses pull up side by side in Annacotty and I get on the Bus Éireann vehicle, I will end up going into Nenagh, Roscrea and Portlaoise. If I live in those areas, the service to my town would be provided by Bus Éireann but it is not provided by a private operator. Why is a PSO from the main motorway to Nenagh, Roscrea and Portlaoise not being considered? What reasons would prevent that? Is there a need for a change in legislation in order that we can compare like with like? Where is the information on the number of free travel passes being used on all routes? It is just not good enough that it is not available. How quickly can we get it to have a proper evaluation? Does Ms Graham believe the PSO model is fit for purpose because of the way the bus and transport system has evolved?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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What happens when people with free travel passes do not have the choice to go on another bus? People can travel from A to B with a private operator more quickly.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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One has effectively 70% of its passengers on the route using free travel passes. That evidence is anecdotal when it should be empirical.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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The witness has stated that on the Expressway service, a PSO subsidy cannot be provided under current legislation.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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The by-product is that Bus Éireann will end up having to take away Expressway routes. That will give rise to two consequences in the form of a loss of jobs and lack of competition on the route. A model is being created where, effectively, one operator will be put out of business. A large section of the population - those who are on free travel passes and who are rightly entitled to travel for free - will have no operator on which to travel.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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I want the witness to address the weakness in current legislation which does not allow the National Transport Authority to provide a public service obligation on the Expressway route or elements coming off the main route to towns and villages.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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The witness mentioned it was under the legislation.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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What legislation?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We have covered this.
Ms Anne Graham:
There are also the European Union regulations that govern not just the provision of public transport services but also state aid. We would not be in a position to give a subsidy to a commercial operator for the provision of what might be considered public service obligations. We assess the corridor and the towns and how they are served by commercial licensed services. If there is an additional public service obligation above what is provided, we look to see if we can provide additional services. That changes all the time, depending on what service level there is and what changes are made to existing service levels. It is a very dynamic environment, as the Senator might imagine. We try to respond as quickly as we can to changes in that environment. It is changing and has changed quite dramatically, especially in the economic downturn. We have had to respond where we could. That is the market environment in which we operate and that we regulate.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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When can Mr. Duggan get the empirical evidence in order that proper due diligence can be done on how routes operate and how the PSO system is working?
Mr. Tim Duggan:
There are two parts to the issue. The free travel pass has been a paper pass all its life. In the past couple of years we have been replacing it with a public services card, which is a smart card. That card will use the integrated ticketing system, ITS, and we have been rolling it out to free travel customers. As I mentioned earlier, there are approximately 875,000 free travel customers and we have rolled that out to just under 700,000 of those. The difficulty we have is the remaining 170,000 or 180,000 who are the hardest customers to reach. In some cases these customers may not be availing of free travel despite having that entitlement. They may be in caring arrangements.
They may have particular physical or other circumstances that cause them difficulty to engage in-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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I have limited time and the Chairman has been indulgent. It is impossible to assess the provision of public transport properly without empirical evidence on the use of the free travel pass. What is the breakdown, how often are these passes used, what routes are they used on and how many holders are OAPs or on disability or carer’s allowance or companion passes? The figure of 700,000 is well over three quarters of the total number. Why can the Department not issue a direction to all bus operators to install a computer system under which someone using their services must swipe? Within a week, we would have empirical data that, instead of seeing us taking a stab in the dark, would allow for a proper assessment.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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How long will it take?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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How quickly can a system be set up with all PSO licensed bus operators so that we can record empirical data?
Mr. Tim Gaston:
This follows on from my answer on the roll-out of integrated ticketing Leap card equipment. The same machine that reads the Leap card also reads the free travel pass. Across most public transport, we already know the number of free travel pass users who are boarding versus people who are using purchased Leap cards, cash or other tickets.
The situation is not as empirical as the Senator suggested. For public transport, all that we need to know is that it is a free travel pass. The data that we gathered will not be disaggregated into the types of pass that have been issued. That is entirely within the gift of the Department of Social Protection to determine. It is not something that public transport wants to get into. In fact, public transport has no right to know why that person is entitled to free travel, just that he or she is, if the Senator understands what I mean.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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Okay. How quickly will we be able to get proper data?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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When will we have proper empirical data on, for example, the weekly number of people using free travel passes on the Limerick to Dublin route? We could then know whether that figure is 80%, for instance.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Gaston wish to answer that question?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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That is not happening.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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My understanding is that this is not happening. Can the NTA instruct Bus Éireann that it should commence? It is in Bus Éireann’s own interests.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Troy has already had 20 minutes, so he needs to be brief.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman. A review of licensing was completed by the NTA and given to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport before December. Ms Graham stated that the NTA did not have access to commercially sensitive information on the viability and profitability of the private operators of Expressway route services.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That seems at variance with what the Minister stated. When we asked him to make available that report, he said he could not because of the amount of commercially sensitive information contained therein.
My question follows on from the comments of my colleague, Deputy Ó Cuív. If someone seeks an amendment to his or her licence on the basis that continuing the route for which he or she originally applied is no longer commercially viable, how does the NTA know this is the truth if it does not have access to the private operator’s commercial information?
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am not referring to withdrawing the licence in full, but to withdrawing a licence from servicing a number of towns along a particular route. Some operators won licences based on servicing towns along a route but because they claimed that servicing those towns was no longer commercially viable, they moved to providing point-to-point services.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that the NTA cannot force someone to carry out something that is not commercially viable but what proof has it of that if it does not have access to commercially sensitive information? How does the NTA know that the private operator is telling the truth? The operator can pull out more easily than Bus Éireann. Regardless of whether we like it or whether it is mandated, Bus Éireann is a semi-State body and feels that it has a duty.
Ms Anne Graham:
If an operator decides to apply for a change that involves a reduction in the number of services or towns that it services, we can do nothing to stop it from doing that. If it wanted to grow the number of towns, that would require consideration because there may be competition. If an operator wants to reduce the number of towns that it serves, there is very little that we can do about that application. If an operator wants to change the associated timetable, that could have an impact and would need assessment in terms of the towns that it remains serving, but we must accept the application as it is given to us. It is the-----
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The NTA takes the operators at their word.
Ms Anne Graham:
Yes. We have to. We are not asking for and nor do we seek the reasons people look to reduce their services. That is not required. We accept the licence application. The operator outlines the towns that it possibly wants to change and the timetables that might change as a result of that. We assess whether we would give a licence on that basis.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Surely it is the NTA’s concern. As Ms Graham has stated frequently, if those towns become non-serviced, the NTA is left to respond to gaps. It issues a licence in the first instance but if an operator sees that even though it is not losing money, it could make a higher percentage by cutting out certain towns, we will be left to respond. That is not right. This situation is not the NTA’s fault. As one of my colleagues mentioned, the NTA is operating under the legislation. Maybe that needs to be addressed. The phrase that has been used time and again this morning is “the NTA is responding”, but the NTA should be leading and providing an integrated public transport service outside and inside Dublin.
I seek clarification from the Department of Social Protection. The payment is based on the number of journeys taken as opposed to the number of free travel passes issued.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
No. Actually, I am sorry - as it depends on the operator. The Deputy is correct in that it does not relate to the number of free travel passes issued. The payments made to operators depend on whether they are private operators or in the CIE group. If they are the former, they are surveyed. If they are in the CIE group, the payments are based on service charges that have been negotiated through the years.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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On what are the service charges based?
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is complex.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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If there were adequate data one could pay a set figure for a set journey.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I ask members to be brief. A bus that left Dublin will probably be in Cahirciveen at this stage.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Did Bus Éireann meet with Ms Graham before issuing its letter to employees indicating it would discontinue some Expressway routes? Does she feel she had an impact on the discussions between workers and management in Bus Éireann by issuing a letter to this committee on 28 January stating that the NTA was in a position to fill the void should the Expressway be pulled from some routes?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy referring to a letter to the Irish Examiner?
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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No, it came through this committee.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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It stated that there would be a contingency.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It pre-empted the outcome of the discussion to some extent. Is it possible that some Expressway routes could convert to PSO routes, if Bus Éireann or the Department could make the case for that? There is no similarity. The route from Annacotty to Kildare and the Red Cow is covered by a private operator but Annacotty to Nenagh to Templemore is covered by Bus Éireann.
Ms Anne Graham:
We did meet with Bus Éireann prior to its announcement on Expressway routes. We wanted some notice from the company so that we could plan for any changes to the services. We wrote to the committee in January to assure members that if there were changes to Expressway services we would be able to respond with replacement services. It is not possible to convert a commercial service to a PSO service with the same operator. If a commercial service is withdrawn and there is a requirement for a PSO service, we then tender that service.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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How many protection officers does the Department employ to monitor fares and carry out inspections?
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department have access to the figures?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Duggan clarify whether the 875,000 people to whom we referred actually qualify for and get free travel, as opposed to just being eligible for it? I understand many are eligible but have not applied.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Has the Department any data as to how many people qualify for free travel but never use it?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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A huge proportion have not been used.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The Department pays €76.6 million to all operators for the free travel scheme which works out at €90 per annum per head, using the total of 875,000. There are some people for whom public transport is not an option, such as those in isolated areas where they may have to pay for a local hackney to go for their pension every Friday. With some household benefits there is an option to tick a box and get a monetary payment in lieu of something else, such as with the old phone rental allowance. Would the Department consider this for people in isolated areas who have to pay privately for transport?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of people in peripheral, rural areas who get no benefit from the scheme. I welcome the fact that cards are coming on stream. How many paper passes are out there at the moment? Is Mr. Duggan concerned that people who are not eligible for free travel use these passes, resulting in an abuse of the system?
Mr. Tim Duggan:
With the paper pass there was undoubtedly a level of abuse that the new public service card is significantly helping to minimise, if not prevent. I cannot give figures for the level of fraudulent activity but no paper passes have been issued since 2014, except in dire emergencies. Anyone who has qualified for the public travel scheme since then has been issued with a public service card.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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This has photo ID.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The paper passes did not have photo ID but just a name.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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If grannie Mary passes away there is nothing to stop granddaughter Mary using the paper pass today.
Mr. Tim Duggan:
If the paper pass still exists that is possible but we expect that, by the end of current roll-out programme at the end of this year, anyone who wants to continue to avail of free travel should have been able to get a public service card. Once we are satisfied that all those who are entitled to one can get one, we can look at the possibility of withdrawing the paper pass.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I have spoken to drivers who feel helpless about the situation but know in their heart and soul that someone is availing of a pass which is not theirs. Revenue is being lost to the system as a result and I think this is a big feature of the fact that Bus Éireann is incurring huge losses. It is a great scheme for those who are entitled to it but we all get reports of this happening. Will there be a cut-off point? What measures will the Department take to assist vulnerable people and ensure that they are not the victims of this?
Mr. Tim Duggan:
We have not yet set a cut-off point because the 180,000 who still have paper passes are probably the most vulnerable in the entire cohort of free travel customers.
We are clear that we want to ensure that we give those people every single possible opportunity to change over to the public services card before we impose that cut-off point.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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How does the Department police the situation regarding companion passes? I have heard some really disturbing stories about abuses of this. Are measures being considered by the Department to try to minimise the amount of abuse of the system that is happening?
Mr. Tim Duggan:
There is no easy way of dealing with that. It is incredibly difficult. The only way one could deal with it would be to tie each companion pass to a particular companion and insist that this person also have the appropriate ID based on the same system. That is incredibly difficult to do because it would impact on people in a way that none of us would like.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Has the Department examined options?
Mr. Tim Gaston:
In respect of bus, rail and tram usage, the protection inspectors will look for the free travel pass. If they have concerns, they have the opportunity to contact the free travel section and challenge whether a pass is valid. They withdraw a very significant number of paper passes that they consider may be being abused and hand that over to the Department of Social Protection. With the roll-out of the public services card, and I spoke earlier about the on-bus equipment, we also have a hand-held ticket machine that will inspect the public services card and show whether it is valid. Therefore, the photograph is checked and there is also the electronic check to ensure the pass is still valid. The electronic system is much stronger and far less likely to be abused than the paper system.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, there is a very real prospect of major strike action next week. We hope it can be avoided. In respect of private operators, has the NTA contingency plans in terms of ensuring that there is no abuse of licences so that nobody operates routes they should not be operating during that period? Has the NTA plans to address that?
Ms Anne Graham:
It is open to any operator to apply for a temporary licence to provide services. It can also provide auxiliary services on its existing licensed services and alert us to those auxiliary services. That position is in place regardless of whether industrial action takes place or not. Our responsibility is to give the public transport customers as much information as possible about what services are running and we do this on our Transport for Ireland website and with our national journey planner. It will have the up-to-date position about what services are operating.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Ms Graham spoke about the NTA figures from 2012 to 2015 which show that passenger numbers on the Dublin-Cork route are up by 61% and that numbers on the Dublin-Limerick route are up by 50%. Could Ms Graham clarify that this relates to the number of passenger journeys made?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Could Ms Graham tell us about the increase in capacity or supply?
Ms Anne Graham:
This is information provided by members of the committee. We have not produced a capacity increase. What we can give the committee is the increase in passenger kilometres operated. I do not have that information to hand but I can certainly give it to the committee later. Passenger journey data is given to us by the operators on an annual basis.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I am going back to basic supply and demand. If there is an increase in the number of passengers, passenger journeys are in isolation if we do not know the capacity increase. The concern would be that there is over-supply.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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So the NTA does not know about the supply?
Ms Anne Graham:
What we do not know is what kind of bus is providing a particular service. It could be a single-decker or double-decker coach. There are different capacities associated with those and it could change depending on the day on which the service is provided. We do not have the actual seat capacity. I think an assessment has been made by others to provide that. What we do know is the increase in passenger kilometres relating to those services.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Surely the NTA should know that in terms of having an informed debate on this and informing public policy. Is this not something about which there should be further scrutiny?
Ms Anne Graham:
Our main concern is increasing the number of people who use public transport. We have seen dramatic increases in the number of passengers journeys on those corridors without impacting on rail services in particular. We do not accept that there is an oversupply in terms of services on those particular corridors. We have seen that there has been successful provision of services and that market has grown significantly.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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If I was Bill Gates and I wanted to increase the number of passengers flying from Kerry to Honolulu, I could put on free flights, everybody would hop on them and we would increase the passenger numbers but this would mean that people would stop using other routes to go on their holidays and there would be job losses. There are spin-offs and effects from this.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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If one wants to increase the number of passengers on a route, well and good. Surely, however, there cannot be a Machiavellian approach where one just increases the number of passengers regardless of the impact. Knowing the capacity is of interest here. If there is oversupply, that will affect the market as well. Is that not something the NTA should know?
Ms Anne Graham:
We know generally about the growth in terms of the demand on those corridors and assess them on an annual basis to see which passenger numbers are growing or not. I will give the example of the Dublin-Galway corridor, which has a number of operators. During the same period in which we saw growth in the Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Limerick corridors, where there were additional services, there were no additional service on the Dublin-Galway corridor and things more or less remained static in terms of passengers. We know that there is no further demand for services on the Dublin-Galway corridor but there was certainly potential demand on the Dublin-Cork and the Dublin-Limerick corridors that has now been provided by the additional licences.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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In terms of a level playing field, no Bus Éireann driver can turn away anybody with a free travel pass. Should the same not apply to any commercial operator?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Should that not be a condition of granting licences?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The NTA issues the licences. It is the agency tasked with ensuring that this is managed. If the NTA wants somebody to operate a route, should it not tell the operator that it can operate the route but that it needs to accommodate people with disabilities and older people - individuals for whom the scheme was designed in the first instance? Should that not be a precondition? If operators decided to take the NTA up on the offer, well and good, and if not, they do not.
Ms Anne Graham:
Due to the fact that entry into the free travel scheme was frozen for new entrants up to 2014, we did not feel it was appropriate at that time to impose conditions when they would not have been able to join the free travel scheme at that time. We can now consider the situation given that there is fuller access to the free travel scheme but it must be based on the availability on funding for that scheme and looking at what would be the appropriate discounts associated with it for private operators.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I imagine that it is something which should have been considered well before this point. The crisis in Bus Éireann's Expressway routes has been well flagged for some time. I do not believe it is the entire cause of the problem but the link to the free travel scheme has been well flagged so surely that is something at which the NTA should be looking.
Ms Anne Graham:
There have been changes to the scheme. Between 2010 and 2014, entry into the free travel scheme was frozen for new applicants so, obviously, we could not impose conditions on an operator to be part of a free travel scheme it could not avail of. Now that there may be more funding available, we can look at it if we feel that operators will be evenly compensated through the free travel scheme.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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Is there no obligation on them to avail of the scheme? If private operators decide not to avail of it, the NTA cannot compel them to do so.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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That is a decision the NTA makes.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The NTA has decided not to make it a condition of a licence that someone be compelled to accept the free travel pass.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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That needs urgent consideration.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Should the NTA not have been considering that when it became aware of the huge issues in Bus Éireann?
Ms Anne Graham:
The arrangement for Bus Éireann is different. The representatives from the Department of Social Protection have indicated that. We have indicated that we are considering how the scheme might be applied in general. Then it can assessed on the basis of what would be imposed on commercial operators in the future.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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If the NTA decided in the morning to impose an obligation on all operators to use the travel pass scheme, can it do so under current legislation and regulation?
Ms Anne Graham:
We can put in conditions relating to how they operate the service. I believe we can but I would need to clarify that. It depends on whether something is being imposed that would be commercially difficult for them to comply with. We will consider that in the round. Up to 2014 we would not have been in a position to impose that condition because they would not have been compensated for it.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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On the logistics of disabled persons’ access, am I correct in saying that 2030 is the target date for 100% wheelchair access?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I am working from memory of responses to parliamentary questions. Is it a pre-requisite for the NTA to grant a licence?
Ms Anne Graham:
Currently it is not. We have made some assessments of that. We had to consider the condition we would place on an operator. We wanted first to ensure the services we provide under contract would have wheelchair accessible vehicles. We are moving in the purchase of a new fleet to have it wheelchair accessible.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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What percentage of Bus Éireann buses are wheelchair accessible?
Ms Anne Graham:
All the regional city services are fully wheelchair accessible. We have been examining the wheelchair accessibility of the single decker coach. At the moment the new vehicles purchased by Bus Éireann have a wheelchair lift and there is a 24 hour booking period required because seats have to be removed from the vehicle to enable activation of the wheelchair lift. We have been trying to assess whether there is an alternative to that vehicle. We are not convinced that it is the best provision of service for those who use wheelchairs. We are assessing what vehicles are available on the market. If we are in a position to provide that fleet on the contracted services, we will consider whether we would make the provision of that type of vehicle a condition for licensed services too.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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What is the percentage for accessible private buses?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Will Ms Graham please furnish it to the committee, please?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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Are returns made by the bus operators that have a public service obligation, PSO, licence of the numbers who use free travel passes in a year?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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Does the NTA know how many times a travel pass was used?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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How would the NTA know that?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Graham believe that is accurate?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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Is that broken down by route?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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Would the NTA know the number of passengers carried on those routes, for example, Limerick to Dublin, in a year and how many used free travel passes?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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There is a lack of information regarding the number of people using free travel passes on the Expressway routes.
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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I am just saying that.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am at a loss to know why the NTA does not have the figures for the capacity increase because at a previous meeting on the commercial routes, we were informed, and I did not keep all the figures, that while passenger usage increased on the Cork-Dublin corridor by 61%, capacity went up by 111%. Is that justifiable?
What plans does the NTA have to introduce double decker commuter buses to Cork for services such as the 245? Many passengers are left waiting for a relief bus. A double decker bus would alleviate that problem.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Would the NTA dispute those capacity figures?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Should the NTA not know, if it is issuing licences for the routes?
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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What size are the buses?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Could the NTA not have a best case and worst case figure? There would be a minimum and maximum even under those circumstances.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Surely that should be the remit of the NTA. If it is issuing licences on the route, it should know the capacity.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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When will that be done?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is it not important to inform the base for policy decision-making on this matter?
Ms Anne Graham:
What is important is the number of services provided and what is extremely important, and everybody is forgetting this, is the number of customers availing of these services. A 60% increase in the number of passenger journeys is significant in respect of any other service provision in the State. It is surprising that the figure seems to pose a difficulty whereas many would celebrate this kind of growth in the number of passenger journeys over a short period.
Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is at the expense of an operator that is not paid properly for carrying half of its customers.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the plastic photo ID card new recipients receive and which others will receive in lieu of their old one, is the companion pass still a paper pass? Will Mr. Duggan clarify the matter?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Does it carry a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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In respect of the 875,000 people who have free travel passes, do the delegates have a breakdown to show how many are old age pensioners and how many have companion passes?
Kieran O'Donnell (Fine Gael)
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What is the breakdown?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Duggan furnish the committee with the breakdown?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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When a person passes away, are efforts made to retrieve the free travel card and the companion pass? Are they taken out of circulation? Are there efforts made because obviously payments are continued by the Department? Is there any link with the Department, particularly the pensions section, to take cards out of the system?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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In time - I hope as soon as possible - all abuse will have been stopped by electronic means.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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That bus is about halfway back to Dublin from Cahirciveen. I thank everyone for giving so much of his or her time. It has been a very long meeting. I thank delegates for their patience and taking all of the questions asked. I also thank members.