Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton. We are meeting this afternoon to consider the Revised Estimates for Public Services at the Department of Social Protection, Vote 37. As Members will have seen the 2013 Revised Estimate was presented to the Dáil in a new programme-based format. This means that the Estimate, as presented, contains the following information for each programme: how the money allocated to the programme is proposed to be spent and the previous year's outturn in each case; the number of staff assigned to work in connection with the programme and how that compares with the previous year; and performance-related information, which is departmental outputs with the corresponding information for previous years and what are termed performance and impact indicators with the previous year's information also.

Administrative expenditure for the Vote as a whole is summarised in more detail than previously. The Revised Estimate gives us an opportunity to review whether the target set out and the distribution of money across the Vote are appropriate in all the circumstances and demonstrate the best use of resources. It also gives us an opportunity to explore the issues facing the Minister in terms of the 2014 allocation for her Department.

The timetable for today's meeting has been circulated and agreed. It allows for a brief opening statement by the Minister and then a discussion of each programme involving questions from members.

The Minister is accompanied by Ms Niamh O'Donoghue, Secretary General, Mr. John Conlon, assistant secretary, Mr. Denis Moynihan, principal officer, Mr. Tony Crean, assistant principal, Mr. Vincent Kennedy, assistant principal, and Ms Clare Conway, assistant principal. I invite the Minister to make her opening remarks. We would like her to remain within the allotted five minutes. I will inform her when the five minutes is up so that she can begin to conclude.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Chairperson and members for the invitation to discuss the 2013 Revised Estimates for my Department. I will try to keep my opening statement as brief as possible.

The Department has supplied material for the use of the committee in the changed format designed to better reflect the new performance budgeting approach to the Estimates process. My officials will continue to work with the committee and Oireachtas officials to refine this approach. Since becoming Minister, I have overseen a programme of policy and organisational change unprecedented in the history of the Department. As part of this, the Department has successfully completed one of the most significant mergers in the history of the Irish public service, while at the same time reducing expenditure and meeting increased demand for benefits. The merger involved the transfer of more than 1,700 posts and a variety of schemes and services from other Departments to the Department of Social Protection.

The Department has smoothly implemented the transfer while dealing with the three fundamental forces transforming its operations. These include reduced budgets and greater demand for schemes arising from the economic crisis; moving from the passive benefits provider of old to a public employment service that is actively assisting people back to work, training or education; and the reality of demographic change that is increasing the Department’s spending on older people year-on-year. In 2013, I had to make provision for an additional €190 million for the increasing number of pensioners. I have had to seek additional funds every year since I became Minister. Since 2009, the Department has implemented cost-saving measures which have cumulatively reduced expenditure by more than €3 billion. At the same time, the number of people in receipt of a weekly welfare payment has increased from 1.209 million people at the end of 2008 to 1.476 million people at the end of May this year – an increase of approximately 267,000 people. Therefore, it can be fairly said that the Department has risen to the challenge of implementing unprecedented structural reform while contributing significantly to the necessary consolidation in the public finances and, most importantly, offering a safety net to those who need it.

In 2013, the Department will spend €20.243 billion on a wide range of schemes, services and administration. At the end of May, 1,476,000 persons were in receipt of a weekly payment in respect of 2,283,000 beneficiaries, as well as a further 614,000 families in receipt of a monthly child benefit payment for approximately 1.2 million children. The scale of these numbers alone means that our payments and services impact on the lives of almost everybody in the State. The immediate impact of the social transfers we make has an impact on poverty levels. Social transfers reduce the at-risk-of-poverty levels in the State by more than 60% - the most effective performance in the EU. The second impact of our expenditure, which is sometimes forgotten, is the contribution it is making to the country’s economic recovery. The spend of my Department puts money in the tills of almost every business and shop in the State in a very immediate way as our customers spend their benefits and pensions each week, thereby maintaining domestic employment and economic activity.

Any consideration of further budgetary measures must have regard to both of these crucial facts.

The service traditionally provided by my Department in providing income supports will continue. However, one of my priorities since becoming Minister has been to transform the Department from the passive benefits provider of old to one that actively assists jobseekers in returning to work, which includes engaging with employers to help them to secure the employees they need. In that regard, the new integrated employment and support service, Intreo, was launched in the Sligo office last year. There are now 12 Intreo offices up and running, with many more to come before the end of this year. Intreo is a one-stop shop where jobseekers can, for the first time, obtain their income and employment supports in the one place. These employment supports include tailored personal progression plans and a range of other services.

Another significant development has been the completion of a number of information technology modernisation projects in the Longford office. Although there has been a negative impact on claim processing in the short term, the backlogs in these areas have been largely cleared. For example, the family income support scheme is now totally up to date and delivering a fast and efficient service to workers.

In regard to fraud, it is important to state the vast majority of those in receipt of social welfare benefits are claiming only the entitlements due to them. As such, it is essential that we respect the majority and maintain public confidence in the system by vigorously tackling any fraudulent activity. Two recent developments in this area are the introduction of legislation to recover a higher level of overpayments and the recently concluded predictive risk analytics project. The objective of this project was to establish whether fraud investigation and control could be enhanced through the application of new models and technologies. The project will help to inform future decisions with regard to the further application and business development of these technologies. In addition, inspectors in the Department now have powers to detect social welfare fraud at ports and airports and are using these powers successfully.

Approximately 250,000 public service cards have been issued. These will enable individuals to gain access to public services more efficiently and with a minimum of duplication of effort, while at the same time preserving their privacy to the maximum extent possible. The cards will also play a crucial role in further eliminating fraud from the system.

I hope my very quick run-through has given members a flavour of what the Department is doing with the money contributed by taxpayers and PRSI payees to support fellow citizens, particularly those who have had the misfortune to lose their employment or business.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Before moving to a programme by programme consideration of the Revised Estimates, we will begin with questions on the general position. I refer members to the departmental brief on page 7 of the circulated document and the briefing material from the committee secretariat on page 5.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for her presentation. To clarify, she mentioned an increase in the number of social welfare recipients since 2008. Will she give us the figures again?

During the debate on the Social Welfare Bill we went through the various proposed cost-saving measures, to which the Minister has referred in her opening statement, including the reductions in the respite care grant, back to school clothing and footwear allowance, household benefits scheme and so on. The calculation at the time, working on the Minister for Finance's figures, was that the total savings, excluding the changes to child benefit, would be in the order of €178 million. We pointed out that in a reply we had received to a parliamentary question the Minister for Finance had indicated that an increase of 3% in the universal social charge applicable on the portion of incomes above €100,000 would yield €200 million. Introducing that change, we argued, would eliminate the need for these cuts to the social protection budget. That proposal was, apparently, discussed but ultimately jettisoned in favour of a mansion tax, which I understand will this year yield the massive sum of €600,000. Will the Minister comment on this?

The departmental briefing material indicates that the expenditure ceiling for 2013 was €20.243 billion, which amounts to a decrease of €483 million, or 2.3%, on the provisional outturn for 2012. There is no indication, however, of the actual outturn for last year. The Minister will recall that just before the budget last year, this committee sanctioned a Supplementary Estimate of more than €600 million. How does that additional allocation factor into the outturn figures?

In regard to the projections for 2014, the Minister has indicated that an additional €440 million in savings are targeted. I agree with her view that social welfare expenditure contributes enormously to sustaining the domestic economy. I note, too, her recent public statement that an additional €440 million reduction in her budget in the next round of expenditure cuts would be a bridge too far and her indication of an intention to reduce that level of savings. What is her current position in this regard? Will she comment on the suggestions from certain quarters that the pressure on the public finances has eased in the wake of the agreement on the promissory note and other matters and that the dividend arising therefrom might be used to reduce projected cuts in social protection spending?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy asked about the increase in the number of social welfare recipients. The figure for 2008 was 1,208,883, or 1,799,875 million if beneficiaries are included. By 2012, that figure had risen to 1,469,202, or 2,259,807 including beneficiaries. I have made the point before that we have very happy demographics in this country at both ends of the life cycle. Almost every year, without particularly drawing attention to it, we pay out an additional €190 million to €200 million to cater for people reaching retirement age. It is a happy fact that retired people in this country are living much longer than was the case in the past. At the other end of the scale, our birth statistics and child population demographics are the envy of countries such as Germany. The reality, however, is that these fortunate demographics come at a cost. Our significant population of children and young people is costly in terms of payments such as child benefit and in the provision of services such as education and health, just as increased life expectancy carries a cost in terms of State provision for older people.

On the Deputy's question about the universal social charge, without wishing to get political about this, I recall a discussion I had with the late Deputy Brian Lenihan prior to its introduction. We shared the same constituency and had that discussion.

When the ESRI wrote the paper it was envisaged as a social contribution but unfortunately - it may have been to do with the troika - when it emerged from the budget it had become a charge.

That leads into the other issue of last year's figures which are set out in table 6. The out-turn was €20.727 million. It was higher because we did a special estimate on the morning of the budget. The Social Insurance Fund was steeply down because fewer people were at work. It was also heavily called upon because so many were entitled to jobseeker’s benefit, for instance, so there was a deficit in the social insurance fund. I presented the actuarial review to the committee that we published at the end of last August which went into that in great detail. We have demographic pressures. Unfortunately, when the plans were being drawn up in respect of the IMF in September 2010 the forecasts were done then but there are 50,000 more unemployed than were forecast when the troika came into the country. We have been carrying that burden but the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform give that due recognition and that is why they compensate us for deficits in respect of the Social Insurance Fund. That was the basis for the adjustment towards the end of last year. In other words, the pressure on the Social Insurance Fund will be greatly eased as we get more and more people back to work.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister mentioned the social welfare and social transfer contribution to local economies. Any cut or change in the amounts given, taking into account the figures given here, of €484 million less in terms of social welfare payments or supports and €190 million the previous year, makes a combined sum of over €670 million which is no longer in the local economy. While it has always been recognised that the social transfer supports attempt to eradicate poverty and contribute to the local economy, removing that much from the local economy has a detrimental effect which can also add to the numbers dependent on social welfare or State supports. That is something to be borne in mind, especially given that the indications, based on these figures, are of a further cut of €300 million or €400 million next year, depending on the number of people going into employment. There are other factors but I think €440 million is the figure. It could be higher or lower. We have seen estimates vary.

The Minister said that we do not highlight the increase in the pension. An extra €190 million is contributed. That may be a case of not being able to manage our own figures. The census could give a closer indication of how many people should be on that payment alone. It is not an exact science but €190 million is a large number to be out by every year. Each year the revised estimate has to come up with another €190 million because we have underestimated the number of people dependent on non-contributory pensions. That shows the urgency and importance of getting our figures right. Is €440 million the figure?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Those of us who are privileged to work in the field of social protection see the human side of what can be rather dry figures for other Departments, which engaged in overall financial management.

On the point about retired people and pensioners, the Department has absorbed between an extra €190 million to €200 million of additional costs every year. We have never made a big issue about it partly because in this and previous governments it has always been accepted that we provide for our pensioners. Socially, that is the absolutely correct thing to do but because the Deputies are experts in the field it is important that they be aware of it. We simply bear it. It is not an issue that is in any way a cause of contention in this Government or as I understand it, in the previous Administration because people accept that we are lucky to live in a country where there are older people who are living longer. It is a significant burden nonetheless. The risk of poverty rate for older people in 2010 was 9.6%. That was a big decline on the 2004 rate which was 27.1%. The significant increases in the rate of retirement pension contributed largely to that decline in those years. That is a very significant social achievement which we would all, across party lines, stand over and seek to protect and defend.

The indicative demands which are set out for next year and subsequent years are very significant. The critical point to understand is that the Department is demand-led. We respond to valid requests from people for income support. The numbers of people benefiting from the Department's schemes, compared with the end of 2008 has gone up from 1.2 to approximately 1.5 million That has put a huge pressure on expenditure. The Department has taken cuts but we must take three things into account: the demographics factors, population changes and demand. The biggest increased level of demand is from people who lost their jobs after the bank crash and I suppose one does not hear on the Anglo Irish Bank tapes that after the crash this country lost 350,000 jobs. We fell off a cliff in the following three years. That had an enormous impact on social welfare costs and the Social Insurance Fund. As people return to work some of those pressures ease. I remind members that of the fund in the actuarial review, the shortfall in 2011 was €1.5 billion, on expenditure of €9 billion.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We can go into more detail about that matter later.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes; both Deputies mentioned it. That is why we had to go to the people in finance and look for more funding and a supplementary budget at the end of the year.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Are there further questions?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I have a very brief question. It might be better suited to the job activation measures heading. Will I wait until we reach that section? Spending in the region of €100 million a year on job activation measures is a minuscule percentage of the overall-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is over €1 billion a year.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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On activation initiatives.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is an increase of €100 million. The overall spend is over is €1 billion.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Even though, as we have discussed, the pressures on spending and increases in demand are very heavy, we have prioritised additional spending to help people to get back to work. The spend on all employment supports has increased by €100 million, or by 10.7%. The Deputy will recall that in the budget we expanded the number of placements in areas such as the community employment, Tús and JobBridge programme and the new local authority social employment scheme by 10,000. We are putting intense resources into the activation model, the new Intreo. We have opened offices in various parts of the country and hope to open more. We will come to all of this in the context of each programme heading.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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There was an Estimate, but expenditure increased because of the extra people involved. Why not include this in the original Estimate?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am in the hands of Government accounting. I confess to having a background in commercial and financial accounting, as does Deputy Willie O'Dea. Government accounting is partly traditional cash-based accounting and partly like a holy mystery. One explores and hopes to understand it. I am working on the matter.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I certainly agree with the Minister on Government accounting. In an effort to be helpful to her, I draw attention to my question to which she did not respond. I take it that she is determined to persist with her efforts to minimise the impact on the Department of Social Protection when the next Government Estimates are agreed. I will strongly support her in that regard.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Absolutely. The detailed discussions on the budget have not yet commenced. The Department and I are involved in intense training for the anticipated detailed discussions. The Department has a really important role to play in helping the country to get back on its feet. That is why we have a three point mission, namely, to pay people their entitlements, to help people to get back to work through education and training and to limit and reduce fraud and abuse in the system. If we can get these three points working effectively, that will send a very positive message to the people who pay tax and PRSI and who are happy to support a good welfare structure and state. I am convinced that there is a lot of public support for this, if it is efficient, targeted and helps people to get back to work.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We will move to the pension programmes on page 21 of the Department's briefing document. It is dealt with on page 6 of the committee secretariat's briefing document.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the secretariat for its excellent analysis of the figures and the issues which arise. The Minister will have noticed, from the figures available to her within the Department, that the risk of poverty among this segment of the population has grown since 2010. The basic rates of social welfare have remained untouched. Nevertheless, if one takes into account the fact that provision for social welfare is decreasing and that inflation, although not the problem it once was, is still a factor, it is likely that the figures will get worse during the course of the year. Does the Minister have any idea of what the relevant figures will be at the end of 2012 and 2013? Are there comparative statistics from other OECD or EU countries for the percentage of people in that age cohort at risk of poverty?

I refer to output targets. The Department sets its own targets and marks itself on whether it achieves them. I am not sure what the targets are. There is a reference to processing times of pension applications. Can somebody tell me what they are? Were they changed recently? Are they subject to regular review? Are they published anywhere? What is the current position on the Department achieving its targets?

In regard to control measures, the 2013 target indicates that the average saving per review is €4,750. In 2012 the amount achieved per review was €3,500. This will result in a very considerable shortfall. I understand there is a shortfall of €40 million against this target. Are we assuming that in 2013 we will reach the €4,750 target and at the same time have fewer reviews? Perhaps the Minister might clarify the position.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On the question of what are likely to be the at risk of poverty rates in 2012 and 2013, it is very difficult to foresee these rates, as it depends on the trends in household incomes which are affected by employment, wages, migration, dependency rates and social transfers. The Department of Social Protection has carried out an analysis of the social impact of budget 2013 which we have published and is on the Department's website. It shows that the at risk of poverty rate is likely to be unchanged as a result of the welfare and direct income tax measures in the budget.

Reducing the level of poverty is a process which takes time, which is reflected in the design of the ten year national action plan for social inclusion. The Europe 2020 target is based on a ten year timeframe from 2010 to 2020. In addition, there can be short-term variations in poverty trends from year to year. It is important to focus on the long-term pattern.

We prioritise the population living in consistent property as a group which experiences the worst effects of poverty. This includes persons who might not be able to afford a hot meal every other day, warm clothes and so on. There are indicators of which we know which indicate someone is quite poor. A lot of factors influence the national social targets for poverty reduction and the key factor is employment, that is, earning enough money to be able to sustain a reasonably decent standard of living.

What is different about Ireland? First, a very high percentage of the population in Ireland has no other source of income, particularly our pensioners, and without the social transfers they would be at risk of poverty. This is something that transcends party politics in Ireland. We want to see people in Ireland having a decent retirement pension. Even with all the difficulties the country has faced, we have held on to that. It is not always popular with all of the economists, but people involved in politics see the impact on the ground. Second, Ireland allocates a very high level of public resources to social transfers. Third, Ireland targets its social transfers efficiently at those most in need.

There is also an academic debate about how the calculations are done. Deputies will know this often gives rise to differences of understanding among the general public. By and large, issues such as the possession of a medical card would not feature in the at-risk-of-poverty statistics but, in fact, Deputies know that the possession of a medical card is extremely valuable. For population statistics in the Central Statistics Office, CSO, the figures are done by technical experts and some things are included and some are not. For example, a medical card for older people is very important and is not just an enormous psychological comfort but is also of practical assistance. We do very well on the statistics. Our statistics show that for people over 65 years old the poverty reduction effect was 87.5% in 2011, while it was 66.9% in 2007. This compares to EU norms of 81.9% in 2011 and 79.2% in 2007. Not only has Ireland continued to perform well in protecting our older people from the risk of poverty through social transfers, it has also improved its poverty reduction effect well above the improvements noted across the 27 EU member states in this period. The trends strongly suggest that the social transfers will continue to perform well into the future, especially for older people. We expect that the data for 2012 will be available from the CSO - the people there compile the data - in late 2013.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will come back to the point I made in the general comments because it is related to pensions. I have no issue with the €190 million extra that must be paid. I am not seeking to make an issue of it. However, it is a substantial amount of money, the equivalent of 15,000 additional pensioners coming out of nowhere. That means there is something wrong with the forecasting or the interrogation of censuses and so forth. Where do an additional 15,000 pensioners appear from to claim the payments? That means somebody is getting the figures wrong. Obviously the State must step in and cover them, but it is a huge figure, especially if it is additional each year, as appears to be the case. There is a new figure each year. There might be a way of explaining that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is because, as a Department, we absorb it into the Estimates. We do not make an issue of it; we just do it, and absorb it into the Estimates. That was done in previous Administrations. It is the correct thing to do. An alternative system of government accounting in other jurisdictions, which I am not advocating, could involve cash limits on the total spend in a particular area. If there are more people that cake is still there but as there are more people eating the cake, one must cut. Instead, we do what I consider to be the correct thing - that is, to absorb it into the Estimates. However, many people and commentators do not notice it. In general conversations about pensioners they know that at present there are 5.3 people working for every one of our retired people and that by 2050 that will have decreased to only two people at work for every retired person. That is one of the reasons I encourage people to build up pension savings additional to their retirement pensions - because it provides them with a stronger income in retirement and, as a consequence, a more comfortable lifestyle.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not advocating that we not absorb it. My problem is not with that. In planning for next year the Department will prepare an estimate of what needs to be spent on pensions. Somebody will calculate the current number of pensioners, the number that will die and the number that will come on stream. The problem is that when that figure is calculated there is a difference of approximately 15,000 additional people who appear to come on stream out of nowhere. The issue is the figure, not whether we should absorb it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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To answer the Deputy, we anticipate that and the CSO gives us the figures, so it is not a surprise. We know about it and we factor it into the base. In other words, to use the Deputy's example, if we are catering this year for 400,000 pensions and we know there will be an increase to 415,000 pensioners, we factor that into the baseline Estimates of the Department. However - this is the issue to which the Deputy is referring - the consequence of that is that there is an automatic driver, as the increase in the numbers increases the expenditure. If somebody looked only at the expenditure, he or she would notice that the expenditure on pensions is going up a great deal, but the driver of that is that the number of people qualifying to claim a pension is increasing and, quite correctly, we factor that into the Department's base. We probably do not get as much credit for absorbing this as we ought to get when people are debating the social welfare system, but it is important that we absorb it so that somebody coming to retirement age can be confident that he or she will get his or her retirement pension.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Again, I do not have a problem with that. However, we are making the wrong assumptions if we are missing 15,000 people in our projections. If the Department projects that the expenditure will be a certain amount, but by the middle of the year it decides it is an extra €190 million, that is the equivalent of 15,000 pensioners. However, I will leave it at that.

The other issue is control savings. As this is the first section, it relates to most areas. Every year the control savings - that so much can be gained or is unspent - are a major focus of the media. It is a saving because it is money that is not spent for the rest of the year. In the pensions area saving for this year due to control reviews is €157 million. Again, as modernisation takes place and various sections within the Department work together, I presume that figure should decrease, given that more accurate records will be kept.

That means it will be more difficult for people to engage in fraud and for mistakes to happen because a computer will double check the available information. The amount saved seems to increase each year-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----rather than decrease, the effects of a good controlled saving. A major review was done last year and the year before. I must give credit to the Department for exceeding its targets in 2012. From what I hear, it will probably exceed them again this year.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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By that scale there will not be savings of the same scale in the future because the work has been done and accuracy is in place. There will always be mistakes such as clerical errors or people making mistakes when filling out forms. Computerisation and cross-referencing implies that savings should decrease. Is it predicted that savings will decrease in 2014 and 2015?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I wish to move on to the next programme on pensions.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Minister or her officials might provide me with the following data. The pension pay-out for this year is 32% but what was the percentage five years ago? Does she have the figure for any of the past five years? Can she give me the projected figure for five years time in percentage terms as opposed to financial terms?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will answer Deputy Daly's last point first. We do not have those figures to hand but we will supply them to the Deputy.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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That is okay.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I shall respond to the general control questions posed by Deputy Ó Snodaigh. The savings target for 2013 is €710 million. As he said, the ambition is higher than it was last year by €40 million. In other words, there is an increase of €40 million on what was achieved in 2012.

Every year we have increased the number of reviews with a consequent prevention of further expenditure. Unfortunately, from the point of view of social welfare, as Deputy O'Dea and, in particular, Deputy Ó Snodaigh will know, it does not mean that savings sorts us out with the Department of Finance because it is the prevention of further expenditure that would have happened had we not carried out the reviews. However, it does mean that spending is much more targeted at the people who are entitled to the money.

Control reviews relate to the perceived risk of fraud, error or other loss and are generally reviewed regularly for effectiveness. Scheme managers across the Department adjust the number of reviews undertaken throughout the year and depend on a number of factors, including the return from different projects. If a project is started and shows a significant return then we might extend that particular examination countrywide. If a project starts in Carlow-Kilkenny then we will extend it countrywide.

Most savings on pensions result from a review of estates. After a pensioner has died his or her estate, if he or she has one, will be reviewed. Often people will have continued to claim a non-contributory pension, for example, but his or her estate's details will show that he or she did not continue to have an entitlement. I shall outline what happens when a pensioner or retired individual applies for a means tested old age pension. At the time he or she applies for a pension he or she might have a particular set of financial circumstances. Some years later his or her financial circumstances might have changed. Perhaps a sibling or family member died and left him or her their savings. Circumstances might have changed and, therefore, a person's qualification for a full non-contributory pension would be changed. The Department conducts a control check of estates and matches data. Obviously the Revenue Commissioners and the estates and probate offices have a great deal of data which the Department will examine. If it appears that a person has claimed an entitlement that he or she no longer had then we will seek to recover that money from the estate. Overall, that accounts for about 11% of the overpayment cases from which we seek recovery.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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I have a quick question on table 8 on the "at risk of poverty" measurements. I know that the Minister mentioned it as I joined the meeting.

How significant is that measure in the Department? Does it drive policy? Is it measured first and then the Department tries to rationalise it? Does the Department carry out an internal assessment on the potential impact budgets might have on a measure?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Being at risk of poverty is a broad and easily understood concept but the Department's social inclusion unit has a number of national renowned experts in the technical measurement of same. They work in conjunction with the European organisations on European data. Of course the major analysis and collection of the data is normally done by the CSO and the Survey of Income and Living Conditions in Ireland, SILC. This is a specialist area which was once done by Combat Poverty but during the last Administration the agency was abolished. The people in the combat poverty field who remained as civil servants now work in my Department and constitute the core of the social inclusion division.

The Government has a set of consistent poverty targets that must be taken into account when formulating budgets. A couple of months ago we published the social impact assessment, as it is now called and to use the terminology that is evolving in the EU. We published it on the Department's website. It shows the impact the budget had on different categories of people and the impact in terms of consistent poverty. The assessment constitutes a basket of achievements and people who are deemed to suffer consistent poverty are unable to achieve a number of them. International statisticians compile the assessment to reflect a modest but minimum standard of income such as having warm food and clothes and being able to buy shoes or heat a home properly.

We also have the European Union targets for 2020. The targets were set in 2010 and aim to lift 20 million people in the European Union out of poverty by 2020. Since the financial crisis in the European Union the target has gone way off and that distresses me. The biggest factor in reducing the achievement of poverty reduction is unemployment.

We have a good social welfare system for older people when compared with most European countries and, therefore, outcomes for older people are quite good. However, if a huge number of the population is out of work then the at-risk-of-poverty and consistent poverty indicators will increase. One can see that very clearly in countries such as Greece at present. In Greece more than 50% of young people are out of work and a large number of public servants have been sacked. Naturally, if a person is sacked his or her income will be reduced. The greatest challenge for Ireland is to get enough people back to work but working enough hours to produce a sustainable living wage. We reinstated the minimum wage. Initially, when people return to work they find that a lot of their work will be part-time or short-term. We need to adopt the concept of a living wage. That means the minimum wage, which by European standards is good, and enough hours of work to give people enough income.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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That last comment is very relevant to the next programme that we will discuss.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I wish to comment on pensions. I welcome the Minister's warning that people should not rely on the State pension. When I was self-employed I paid into a pension for nearly 17 years but I received my first statement only since the Government took office. I was taken aback by it and did not know what the statement was for. For 16 years I did not know what had happened to my pension. Thankfully, the Government has introduced rules and regulations for pension schemes, and firms must give statements.

Unfortunately, we are in the terrible situation that many people cannot afford a private pension and we will face serious problems ahead. People will not be able to retire. The way pensions were treated by the previous Administration was scandalous.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I have a few questions for the Minister. Are there plans to introduce a provision that compels employers to pay pension contributions for their employees? The OECD report made that suggestion. Perhaps the Minister can answer my question when she responds to the queries posed by Deputy Butler.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes. The OECD produced a pensions report. Perhaps the committee could set time aside for a briefing.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Yes, we could.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Department will provide a very detailed briefing on its three recent reports. The OECD has an expertise in the area and has long advised us on systems for education, health and social protection, how we compare with the most developed countries in the world and how we might improve our different systems. We commissioned the OECD report which stated that Ireland has done well with its State retirement pension in all categories.

Deputy Butler referred to a sustainable pension system in the light of population changes and investment challenges. However, I do not have the time to go into great detail about the OECD report. Perhaps the committee could arrange a public meeting on the matter or it could meet my officials at the Department for a direct briefing on the OECD report. I am happy with whichever the committee chooses.

The OECD recommended two options if we want adequate pension levels, as Deputy Butler mentioned, to provide a decent standard of living in retirement: either a mandatory supplementary pension that would be organised by the State, or an auto-enrolment structure. The latter would mean that once a person commences work he or she would be automatically enrolled in a supplementary pension scheme, above and beyond the social welfare pension. However, we could only adopt either option when the economy picks up. We know that people are very tight with their money and face a lot of challenges related to debt and so on. As the country recovers Ireland should opt for auto-enrolment, and I have said that publicly before. It would mean that a person would be automatically enrolled in a pension scheme under his or her own name. I want people to be secure in the knowledge that if they put their money away a future government cannot take it, as happened with the National Pensions Reserve Fund after the bank collapse. Such a scheme would take an amount of work but it would provide adequacy. We then need to modernise the system. We need to provide clear information on charges and to give reports to people regularly, and we need transparency. The current social welfare legislation will introduce additional changes to facilitate such a pension scheme. I will also establish a pensions council which will advise me, as Minister, on what is in the best interest of consumers and the people who will pay into the pension funds, and on how their needs will best be served.

The pensions industry in Ireland employs many thousands of people. We want reasonable charges, good investment policies and to know how a fund is doing. We also need to provide equity across the system. Only 50% of people have signed up for a supplementary or private pension. Many women and younger people move in and out of employment so tend not to have a supplementary pension. Many women may be dependents of retired people when they reach pension age themselves. Pensions are a very big social issue for Irish society. It would be great if we could set up systems over the next couple of years and thus provide for people in 20, 30 and 40 years' time.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We will probably have a further meeting on that.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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There is a similar scheme in England where the employer and the employee pay into a fund.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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There are different circumstances in this country. I hope the economy will pick up before we introduce the scheme. I welcome the initiative. A person who contributes to a pension is entitled to information on the scheme. Unfortunately, under the old system no information was provided and transactions were conducted behind closed doors. Even if a person contributed to a pension he or she would need a crystal ball to know its value and the commission charged.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I wish to discuss the working age income supports programme. The secretariat's briefing is on pages 10 to 13 and the Department's briefing is from page 26 onwards. I call on Deputy O'Dea to commence.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has overlooked my question on pensions but I am sure she did not do it deliberately. I shall ask the same question on this category. The briefing states that the decrease in the live register is partly because some recipients transferred to the employment supports programme. Can the Minister give me the figures? On page 10 it states that the information supplied by the Department refers to a decrease in the live register and attributes some of this to people transferring to the employment supports programme. Does the Minister have the relevant figures?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As the Deputy has said, there has been an estimated fall in the live register from an average of 437,300 in 2012 to an estimated 431,000 in 2013.

Some €42.5 million is due to the transferring of funding from jobseeker's to the working age employment support programme to provide for an additional 10,000 activation places by the end of 2013 and the Budget 2013 measure which reduced the duration of the jobseeker's benefit. That is what that is made up of.

I will get the figures on the processing times.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Including appeals.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I refer to the average time taken to process a jobseeker's allowance. The target is 90% within six weeks. In 2012, 76% was achieved. In 2013, we are on 82%. One of the significant reasons for the improvement is the new system in the Intreo offices which is being rolled out. I do not know if the Deputy has had an opportunity to visit an Intreo office yet. I extended an invitation to the committee and I think some people went to King's Inn Street or to another office to look at it but I repeat the invitation to any Deputy who has not taken the opportunity to visit an office. The target for jobseeker's benefit is 90% in three weeks. In 2012, it was 83% and in 2013, it remains at 83%.

The Intreo offices are basically allowing us, through reception, to give people the correct application forms when they arrive in. From that, we can give them a fairly rapid appointment in jobseekers' offices. Sometimes it is on the same day but it is certainly within a week. They then have a specific appointment to discuss their application and establish their entitlement.

In terms of jobseeker's benefit appeals, in 2012, it took 42 weeks - that is in regard to means testing - and in regard to jobseeker's allowance appeals, it took 36 weeks. As of Monday, 24 June, the number of appeals on hand is 16,000. That is down from more than 20,000 at the start of the year.

I spoke to Deputies before about the changes in Intreo. Additionally, we went through a system of changing the IT in regard to applications for a range of areas. I will not go into those headings because presumably we will come to them later in the discussion but the effect of Intreo and the changes in Longford and Letterkenny have enabled us to deal with applications much faster, even though we have had higher numbers in quite a number of areas, and to give people a much faster service. That is also very much down to the staff in the Department, even though they are going through a huge transformation process, being committed to very high standards of services to customers.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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In some ways, this section has a little bit of good news in it but it is not reflected in the figures because they change on a regular basis in terms of the numbers on the live register. Obviously, the number on the long-term list is not dropping fast enough. There has been a drop in the number of long-term unemployed but that is not reflected. If the trend this year continues, there would be additional savings.

I heard the Minister speak about the minimum wage, doubling the pension and so on. Is there any proposal to increase the amount young people under 25 and under 21 years of age get, given the discriminatory way they are dealt with under the code in that they only get €100? The context for this question is the EU's youth guarantee. I presume it is not just a guarantee for jobs but for equal treatment.

The control figures seem to be higher than expected. For the same number of control reviews, there seems to be an expectation that €30 million more will be achieved than in 2012. It is a substantial amount given that, in some cases, one is talking about a small amount of money being recovered from individuals. In the overall scheme, €30 million is not huge but it could come back to haunt the Minister.

The Minister mentioned the Intreo offices and I thank her for the invitation. I will get to one but I spend my time visiting Ballyfermot dole office. The sooner that changes into an Intreo office, the better. However, it has substantially changed since I signed on in Ballyfermot Garda station-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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For the better, I hope.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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For the better. I did not mean the Garda station but the dole office. I never had to sign on in a Garda station in my life.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is important to the staff in the Department because they have been on the front line of people losing their jobs, often arriving in great distress. The staff try very hard to give a good service to people. Public servants come in for a lot of knocks and it is important to acknowledge it when people improve services and do their best for people. They are not perfect and we have much further to go but the service has improved considerably for most people.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The changes which occurred even in the year or so since I last visited the office were interesting. I would have attended with constituents on a number of occasions. I find it is often easier to deal with the social welfare inspectors on the telephone. I get a quicker response than when I had to attend in person. The service is changing. Most of the business is carried out in quite a congenial manner, bar one or two characters which one finds everywhere. People are distraught and in crisis but changes are taking place. I praise the Department officials with whom I have dealt over the past number of years.

The target is €33 million for this year. Has the Minister any indication as to whether it will be achieved or exceeded this year? How many offices will be changed to the new belt and braces offices?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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What did the Deputy say about the targets?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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They were not met in 2012. I asked if the target will be achieved or exceeded this year and what is the target for next year.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In regard to the number of offices, the delivery of more than 60 Intreo offices is a major logistical property project for the Department of Social Protection and the managers of this process, the OPW, which is responsible for the provision of the Department's property requirements, including refurbishment and fit-out works.

The new offices allow people more dignity and they can have more confidence in how their applications and claims will be dealt with. I am really anxious to see this rolled out as quickly as possible. We are in the hands of the OPW. I meet senior officials and the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW very regularly to discuss progress. The senior officials are on the case to get it across the line.

I am very ambitious about enhancing the services in Limerick, Cork and Waterford. When the service is better, people are afforded more privacy and dignity. It is much easier to exert controls and conduct reviews in the new offices. The Deputy will have seen the screens in the Ballyfermot office. People can now go to a reception desk and be directed to the correct queue or be given an appointment for the service they require. That is a modern service.

If one engages with an employment service, one should be able to sit down and discuss one's case. We have a two-tier system. We invite people to a general engagement to which they must show up, and they then get information on the services available from the Department. Believe it or not, there are a great many people who never expected to be unemployed and have no experience of dealing with the Department of Social Protection or claiming social welfare. Getting information about what is available to assist them can be really important and liberating in helping people to get back to work. Last year ten Intreo offices were delivered and work commenced on an additional two offices. This year we want to deliver 33 Intreo offices with the balance to be delivered in 2014. We experienced difficulties in a number of areas in 2012. We started with very significant industrial relations issues around the removal of glass from the integrated reception desk. People going into a social welfare office are like the rest of us. After very detailed discussions the issues went to arbitration and an independent assessment by health and safety consultants was required before they were resolved. The new offices are working out well. We have good security in social welfare offices. I have been to many of the offices and the staff seem very happy with how the reception desks are working. We have issues with wayleaves for the new and upgraded broadband network to support the Intreo delivery. We rent some offices and access issues can arise with landlords. High-level broadband capacity is essential. Expanding the use of data analytics will be key to allowing the Department to reduce fraud opportunities. In the new offices clients have their photographs taken and have an electronic signature for the public services card. When a client puts in a claim, the signature supplied when he or she signed on is there, but the nine most recent signatures come up as well. If the signature is dramatically different, the system will tell the staff. Let me give an example. If a client is registered with the Ballyfermot centre, and it appears that somebody who looks exactly like him or her has been signing on in Clondalkin or Blanchardstown, the IT system will tell us that. We get pictures of people who are smooth-shaven for one part of the week and have a bit of a beard for another part of the week; the system will confirm that the face is the same. These pop up quite regularly. Also, when some people find they must have their photograph taken, they suddenly have an urgent appointment elsewhere, and we wait for some of them to come back. There is a real opportunity to improve services using IT, because most people are utterly honest but there are a percentage who are not.

In the Intreo offices we must have more space. This is a critical issue in offices such as Limerick, Cork and Waterford. When we call people to the group interviews we need a room that will hold 20 people plus officials comfortably, as a couple of officials will explain what is on offer. We also need individual interview offices, so that when a person comes back later for an individual interview it can done with dignity and in privacy. We also need small interview rooms for investigating officers if there is to be a discussion about somebody whom the investigating inspectors wish to interview. These are the types of requirement we have.

The OPW reports regularly to us to help us achieve the targets. We also report to the Cabinet sub-committee. Much of the existing office space is less than satisfactory and one of the things on which we are engaged with the OPW is the securing of extra space. Obviously there is the added complexity of property management and the fact that the valuation process is handled by the OPW. We also have the issue of disability access. As time goes by we can improve the quality of information available in the general hall and reception area and people can access it at their own pace and in their own time. They can then discuss it in more detail with an official. Should Deputies wish - it may be of interest to some of them - we can give a list of the offices in the programme.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am sure many rural Deputies will support this point. The community welfare offices were closed in rural areas. I would like to know what savings were made on the closure of these offices. In Summerhill, County Meath, Age Action Ireland was providing an office free of charge to the community welfare officer to meet the people from the area. That was pulled overnight. I heard that community welfare officers were stopped from holding clinics in rural areas. I was told the service was stopped because of the mileage payments to the officials and cutbacks by the Department. What savings were made? In certain cases it should not have been done because it was costing the State very little. We were giving a service. Many people who are on social welfare do not have fancy cars or the extra money to go on the bus to visit town centres. We put many people under more pressure, yet in my view no savings were achieved.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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On the off-chance that any of my constituents are tuned in to these proceedings, I wish to put on record my aspirations for the Limerick office, echoing exactly Deputy Ó Snodaigh's aspirations for the Ballyfermot office. I deal with the Limerick office as well as the Department centrally, and by and large, although they are under pressure, the staff are very helpful and are doing a good job in difficult circumstances, with the explosion of unemployment in the last number of years.

Unemployment has in recent years put a great deal of pressure on the staff in the Department, and by and large they have coped pretty well with it. When I deal with staff in the Limerick office they tell me, in the event of a delay in the investigation of a claim, that they do not have enough staff. It is the old story. As everybody knows, community welfare officers were transferred from the HSE to the Department of Social Protection, as were the people from FÁS, to do a specific job on the Pathways to Work programme. Apart from those groups, how many people were transferred from other Departments where - and I say this with all due respect - staff might not be overwhelmed with work? It was envisaged in Croke Park I that there would be fairly free redeployment. How many staff, apart from the community welfare officers and the people from FÁS, have joined the Department of Social Protection from other Departments?

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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There are a couple of sections on page 29 about outputs, targets versus outputs and people being referred for training as part of the activation measures. I will give an example as a challenge to the Department to ensure there are adequate controls in place. I am dealing with a person who has been a bricklayer for many years and if one met him one would know that is where his skills lie and that he has limited skills apart from that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What did he work at?

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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He was a bricklayer and he has been placed on a training programme entitled Sales and Digital Marketing. He has absolutely no interest in that programme, will not benefit from it and has no motivation to go there any day of the week. At some point in that programme he will be expected to go on placement in a job.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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How long, roughly, has he been without work?

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Probably two or three years, since the boom ended. That is an example of someone who has been inappropriately placed. I am saying this as a challenge to the Department so that it applies controls to avoid wasting resources.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Deputy Butler asked what were the savings from cutbacks in community welfare officers and Deputy O'Dea asked about redeployment of staff.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I asked several questions that have not been answered. One was about the youth guarantee and how that is going to affect the number of young people on jobseeker's allowance and whether there is an intention to change the different scales of jobseeker's allowance. The other question was why a higher figure is expected from control savings for this year than for the same amount of reviews carried out last year.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will take Deputy Butler's question first and then move on to the others. We took roughly 1,000 staff who had formerly worked in the HSE, either as community welfare officers or as staff assisting community welfare officers. When that happened we took over approximately 700 locations from which they provided community welfare services, often for one or two hours a week in 700 different sites around the country. We want to modernise the service. First, all these officials would have been linked to a general principal office, maybe in a neighbouring large town or a regional headquarters. Down the years, if a large number of people were out on the road a lot of the time, it was difficult to contact them, as Deputies know. Officials were showing up in relatively small villages or at crossroads or in old doctors' dispensaries. I believe this practice dates back to the days of what were once called relieving officers, 40, 50 or 60 years ago, even back to the time of British rule. We are bringing them to the large villages and towns but all the time ensuring that people's distance from a significant service is maintained. It must be within a reasonable distance, the kind of distance people might travel for their pension. We have to do this for two reasons: first, it allows us to give more service hours to more people because more of the clients are concentrated in large villages and towns; and second, those officials are available for a longer period. Normally when we make these changes we make a huge effort to advise all public representatives and we advise the local community and put up notices.

If resources permitted I have no doubt people would prefer the old system, but one community officer travelling a round trip of 40 miles to spend one hour at a centre where one person shows up represents a lot of resources. If we could move that meeting place to the nearest large village or town it would enable more people to be seen. Due to the numbers employed, the restrictions about which I spoke and the reductions in the Department's budget, this is an area in which we can try to achieve greater efficiency. That is why we are doing this, and we will continue that process until we can get a more efficient and better service. The second issue is that we are then in a position, as we develop the Intreo offices, to have, for instance, a community welfare officer - we have not reached this level yet - available on-site to deal, for instance, with rent allowance and rent supplement, because approximately 86,000 receive rent supplement and they deal with a community welfare officer. We are trying to improve the quality of services and make the best use of scarce resources.

Deputy O'Dea asked how many staff had been transferred. I can get him the exact figures, but approximately 1,000 staff transferred from the HSE - they were community welfare officers - and approximately 700 staff came from the old FÁS employment services. With them we took the community employment schemes. These schemes employ almost 1,400 supervisors or assistant supervisors. We also created several new schemes, JobBridge and Tús being the best known, and we are creating a social employment service for people through the local authorities, which is making progress. The county councils are getting ready to go ahead with that service. Approximately 1,700 civil servants have come directly into the Department and the local employment service, LES, is also coming under the employment service wing. That is a large number of extra people and services in which more people are engaged indirectly and funded by the Department.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I know that people have come in to handle the extra services - the community welfare officers and the people from FÁS, the LES and so on - but in order to relieve the staff who are subjected to a much greater volume of work than hitherto because of the increase in unemployment, etc., how many people were transferred from other Departments directly to do the ordinary day-to-day work of the Department?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Approximately 3,000 staff have now been deployed to do the ordinary, day-to-day work. This figure includes the additional 1,700 staff to whom I referred. As Deputy Willie O'Dea may be aware from conversations with people in Limerick, we have decided to integrate the FÁS service in order that it is no longer a stand-alone service run by former FÁS personnel. Similarly, the community welfare service is no longer a stand-alone service. One of the consequences of this process of integration is that we can draw on people with different experiences, which allows us to provide a much better service in the new Intreo offices. Under the old system, somebody who was unable to sort out a claim for jobseeker's benefit or allowance in the local social welfare office was sent to a community welfare officer in a different office to be put on an assistance payment while the claim was being processed. In the new Intreo offices the claims will be processed relatively quickly in order that for many applicants there will no longer be a need to claim supplementary welfare assistance. That is why we have been able to bring community welfare officers into the general activities of the Department, including activation measures. Community welfare officers are particularly skilled at interviewing.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is Deputy Willie O'Dea satisfied that he was given the figures he had requested?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I will pursue the matter at Question Time.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In regard to Deputy Brendan Ryan's question about the unemployed bricklayer, approximately 100,000 unemployed persons were formerly involved in construction related activity. The unemployment statistics indicate these individuals are mostly men who worked hard in construction jobs and made good money when times were good. It is a major challenge to find them satisfying and interesting work to which they can relate. There are several builders in my own family and they want to work in construction. However, that trade has fallen on hard times. If individuals in their 30s or 40s are offered courses they do not consider appropriate, do we accept that they should remain locked out of work until the construction industry picks up again? Such individuals could instead become excellent contributors to community employment schemes if given the opportunity to put something back into the community. I hope the local authority social employment services schemes that we will launch this year will be attractive to these individuals. Having put them back on that track, they may ultimately find employment. They might not work at technical bricklaying, but they would be able to use their skills to make a contribution in an area of interest.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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In the meantime, a former bricklayer in his 50s is stuck in sales and digital marketing. If he decides to walk away because he feels he cannot engage or is out of depth in that area, he runs the risk of reductions to his income.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I suggest he discuss with his local office the possibility of transferring to a Tús or community employment scheme. We now have 7,000 people on Tús schemes. To qualify for a placement on a scheme, one must have been unemployed for one year. I have had the pleasure of meeting a range of people on Tús schemes and the local development networks have been very helpful in getting schemes off the ground in local communities. I regularly meet former construction workers who are delighted with their schemes. Their specific skills may not be in demand, but they get the opportunity to work on local projects such as looking after walls or general improvement works in towns. I hope local authorities will be able to develop satisfying projects which will allow participants to get involved in a network. An individual's skills may be suited to his or her local GAA club or other sports organisation. The sad fact is that we simply cannot provide employment opportunities for all of the people who worked so hard in construction.

We now allow claims for jobseeker's allowance to be suspended for eight weeks and are hoping to extend that period further with the Intreo offices. This means that a person who gets a job with a local builder for, perhaps, three weeks, will not lose his or her claim status when the work is over. It will not be necessary to start the process afresh. This reform has been very successful because there has been a pick-up in small scale extensions and improvement works.

We have set up an employers division because a considerable number of small builders have reported difficulties in finding people with the skills possessed by Deputy Brendan Ryan's constituent. One of my ambitions for the division is that we can start to focus on providing services for more than the larger employers. For example, we filled all of the temporary posts in the Passport Office in Balbriggan from the live register. Eishtec, an expanding Irish company based in Waterford, has recruited and filled most of its vacancies from the live register. It is important that employers inform us when they have vacancies in order that we can profile the people they need.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked about young people and the fact that we paid a lower rate to people aged under 25 years. We have discussed this issue previously. I am on record as supporting that change when it was introduced by the then Fianna Fáil Government. If the individuals concerned engage in training or education, they can earn significantly more money. My ambition is to ensure those aged 18 or 19 years never go on the live register because they will instead be able to access education or training.

That brings me to the subject of the youth guarantee which is to be implemented in 2014. We held an EPSCO meeting in Luxembourg last week and every country has been asked to present proposals by the end of the year for implementing the guarantee. Officials in my Department and, I hope, the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation are working hard on these proposals. We need to set out ambitious targets for every Department to offer opportunities to young people to take part in employment, education and training. The Department of Education and Skills is rolling out SOLAS and the education and training boards which will bring together the VECs and the old FÁS training centres.

It is really important for us that they produce relevant courses for our unemployed clients and customers that will give them the skills they need to get back to the labour market.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I would like to move on to the next heading, because we have nine in total but we have only completed three and have 45 minutes to complete the rest. Deputy Ó Snodaigh had one specific question about the controlled savings targets.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There is a minimum number of review targets for 2013. More savings are expected because we have better analytical tools. I gave an example of the man with the three photos. That is really helpful. If the inspectors talk to that individual, we get much more information because they ask why they are being picked on when other people are doing it. There is often a substantially increased flow of information from such cases.

We have taken advice from the Comptroller and Auditor General on auditing, and we now carry out full-size randomised surveys of the different social welfare expenditure headings. We carry out a generalised survey of 1,000 jobseeker's allowances. Based on that, we can see the failure rate or the control rate of fraud and abuse. If we then target the people who are deemed to be at risk of abusing the system, by using analytics we can double the analysis of cases where the risk is quite high. We also carry out matching exercises, which are now part of the analytics. For instance, we do work with the Commission for Taxi Regulation and with a series of different statistics. We now get the PPS number of everybody sentenced to a term of imprisonment. The prison services now supply us with that information on a weekly basis. Before I came into office, that data was supplied every six months to a year. There is no reason that should not be provided weekly, as is the case now.

As we improve our IT systems, our capacity to target, to increase the number of reviews and to carry out proper random surveys of 1,000 people receiving a particular benefit will broadly tell us where the problems exist. If we identify a new issue, we may then extend what we have learned to a nationwide trawl of people who may have the same profile as that thrown up by surveys. That is how it is done. The general public provided us with 28,000 tip-off phone calls last year. Due to the pressure on social welfare, the general public are very anxious to see abuses of the system investigated, and we now do a great deal of that from Carrick-on-Shannon, which is very helpful.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We will now move on to the working-age employment supports programme, which is on page 14 of the committee secretariat briefing. The Department briefing is on page 34.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I must apologise as I have a meeting at 3 o'clock so I will have to leave shortly. There is a reference on page 34 to a number of schemes the Department is running to "reduce barriers to the labour market for people with disabilities." Do we have a percentage figure for the level of unemployment among disabled people? If that figure is not available, perhaps the Minister could provide the figure for the percentage of disabled people who are in the workforce.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There are obviously people with a disability who are in work but who do not make any claim on the Department of Social Welfare because they have an income from their employment and so do not require support from social welfare. I do not have those particular figures. That would be a matter for CSO, but I will ask the staff to obtain those figures for the Deputy. There is a proportion of people in that situation in public services and in companies.

People on the different disability payments face enormous barriers in the current employment market. We now have three principal schemes to assist them, and that is referenced on page 34. With the transfer of the FÁS staff, we took over what is now known as the employability service, which is a dedicated service in about 19 offices around the country. We have a wage subsidy scheme which basically aims to subsidise, for the employer, the additional costs that might be associated with employing somebody with a disability. The supported employment programme is a very interesting programme. There are a range of supports available to work both with the person with the disability who is seeking employment and with the prospective employer, including information about the requirements of the individual who is seeking employment, such as whether he or she needs special access ramps, a wider desk, adapted toilet facilities or anything else. We give small grants to assist in adapting facilities to allow the person to take up employment. If the individual has an intellectual disability, additional coaching might be required for the world of work. In many cases, we would talking about part-time employment.

I have had an opportunity to meet with representatives of several of these services. We had eight information sessions last year for employers on these new services. Wherever I made the presentation, I told employers about employment supports such as the wage subsidy and the small-scale adaptation grants, as well as the coaching information services available for employers and their HR departments and the specific coaching services we could provide. These services will continue after the person has taken up employment. The Irish Association of Supported Employment participated in the job shadow days. I have been heavily involved in supporting that. The Taoiseach has also supported it by taking on a job shadow. Generally, this is for people with intellectual or other disability issues. Many employers find that if they do that, their customers are happy to see that this employer is somebody who offers opportunities to people with disabilities. There are young people with a disability who are happily mainstreamed in our education system. A number of them are now going on to third level at Trinity College and Blanchardstown. That is a great achievement and the next stage is to provide additional opportunities for them to go to work. As Minister, I am very keen to see this.

The partial capacity benefit was formally launched in 2011.

Somebody who, for example, develops MS and stops working for a significant time, but then goes back to work, can have his or her level of disability or limitation assessed and is free to work for the balance. Approximately 2,000 people avail of that benefit.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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How many people avail of the other two schemes, the wage subsidy scheme and the supported employment programme?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I can tell the Deputy what we are spending and will get the number of participants for him. This year we expect to spend €10.85 million. That is an increase of approximately €284,000 on last year. The overall expenditure on the supported employment service has gone up again from €8.104 million to what we anticipate spending this year, a further €8.8 million, which represents an increase of approximately 9.1%. We hope to build up the service on partial capacity benefit claims. There are more than 1,000 of these claims in payment, 866 of which are in respect of a moderate level of disability, 147 in respect of a severe level of disability and 13 in respect of a profound level of disability. Everybody would agree that we should try to expand this area. It is a priority for me as Minister to improve opportunities because if it is hard for somebody who is able-bodied to get a job at the moment, full- or part-time, it is even tougher for people with disabilities, and particularly for young people with disabilities. My colleague, the Minister of State with responsibility for people with disabilities, has done a great deal of work in this area. We hope at the Department of Social Protection to expand these services as well as income support as we go along.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This is a huge and expanding area, which is a good thing in some ways. It will help many people who have found themselves in dire straits because they must change jobs or update their skills mid-stream in their working lives. It also helps young people who emerge from school or college with an expectation of work that is not there by making training available to them. We had some discussion about young people and the Minister said that she expects or hopes that 18 or 19 year olds would not be on the live register.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I said I hope ultimately that will be the case.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is the hope. One of the problems is that even with the reduced social welfare payment to those young people some of them do not qualify for opportunities such as community employment immediately, while in some cases people on the Youthreach scheme, which starts before people leave school, can have a greater income than those who are on the live register and who are in search of employment and not able to access it. Can that anomaly be addressed? There is a huge increase in the number of people in casual work, the under-employed in Irish society. Many of those people take up work just to remain close to the workplace or to have a few extra bob, but in many cases they also need access to the training and opportunities available to those who are full-time unemployed. What mechanisms can we put in place to capture those people? While there might be full-time schemes available, such schemes would force them out of their casual or part-time employment. There are a range of issues arising from CE and Youthreach, but the estimate is positive because the number of people who are in some type of training is increasing. The more spaces are available, the more people are not díomhaoin or idle. They are at least taking a step towards reconnection with the jobs market, if only the jobs were there.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Could the Minister tell me where to find out about the eight-week scheme that she mentioned? Can someone on unemployment benefit work for eight weeks without having to de-register? I was not aware of that and it is a superb initiative. It is important that all of us as public representatives disseminate that kind of information to our constituents because this issue has arisen several times.

Where there is no Intreo office, how can an employer assess the profile of people in an area? Is there any facility to make up for the lack of Intreo offices, for example, in west Cork? I welcome the fact that the Minister is spending 5% of her overall budget on supporting people in returning to work. Two of the schemes that are long awaited are Jobstart, the local authority scheme, and JobsPlus, which is for the long-term unemployed. They will be significant developments. What I call the bar-counter politicians have looked for these for many years. These are people who talk over the bar counter and ask why those who are unemployed cannot help the local authorities. That will be a superb initiative and I congratulate the Minister and her officials on the work they have done on it to date. I welcome JobsPlus initiative, under which, rather than giving people money to sit at home, we give an employer money to give them and the employer adds to it. This lets people have the dignity of working.

I have two questions on these initiatives. The Minister mentioned a sum of €13 million for the first year, rising to €34 million for a full year, and said there would be 3,000 places. That works out at €11,000 per place, so I imagine there is something wrong there.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is their total social welfare payment and the additional payment.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is including the social welfare payment?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When a person moves to Jobstart, he or she would continue to receive benefit payments for a period and therefore the total payment would be the standard payment plus an additional €20. As we increase the numbers, the additional cost represents the extra cost plus the extra administration cost and so on. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government is providing funding to county councils from the dormant accounts fund for this scheme.

I will take this opportunity to ask public representatives to please encourage the county managers or senior officials in their local county councils to examine this scheme because in the 1980s social employment schemes such as this were a significant help to people in keeping them connected and close to the jobs market. If, for instance, people did some work with the local authorities - I have discussed this with many of the managers - eventually, as local authorities begin to recruit again, these people will be ideally placed, as they were in the past, to take up and compete for additional local authority vacancies when they arise. It is a pathway back to work and it has helped people on previous occasions.

I look forward to Jobstart. It has taken some time to get under way. Local authorities had many discussions about the Haddington Road agreement.

We have had many discussions and I am confident that we now have a model that will prove very beneficial. Participation is the principle in this case. It is very acceptable to have local people contributing to this format. Those who contribute to local community centres and participate in community employment schemes are much admired in their communities. Similarly, local people will recognise the value of such contributions. Deputies from outside the big cities, in particular, will be well acquainted with Tús and know that Tús participants are very welcome because of what they can contribute to local communities. This sends a very positive message that people who, unfortunately, are unemployed are only too anxious to make a positive contribution and to be given an opportunity to do so. That is the positive message we want to send.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Let me finish my query because I was cut off before I had finished. JobStart figures show an element of double accounting. If JobStart costs €34.3 million in a full year, with 3,000 participants, that gives a figure of €11,400. Is there an element of double accounting-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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No. That will be taken out when the Estimates are being prepared. It could be the case that some of the people concerned have gone back to work. For instance, it was the pattern that many JobBridge interns were offered jobs after three months in the internship. They then leave the live register completely. In some cases, once people are given a start, a percentage of them will find some employment. For example, in the public service a maternity leave vacancy might arise which means six or nine months work. There is a turnover of job vacancies as a result of people leaving for various reasons or taking leave. This may provide opportunities for others to be employed, even though, technically, in the public service there may not be vacancies, but from time to time there are.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has applied a different model in the case of JobsPlus where she has calculated 2,500 places at a cost of €11 million per annum, rising in 2015 to-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Assuming all places are taken up.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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As the per person cost is €4,400, the Minister has not included the social welfare payment which I presume they will retain.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Those involved in the JobsPlus scheme do not retain their social welfare payments.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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That is a cost to the employer.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The scheme will be formally launched next Monday in Waterford. The key points are that if an employer takes on a person who has been unemployed for more than one year, he or she receives a cash payment of €7,500 over a two year period on a monthly basis; in the case of a person on the live register who has been unemployed for two years or more, the employer will receive a cash payment of €10,000 over a two year period, paid monthly. That is a significant incentive, particularly for jobs at starter level or for those wishing to return to work where the initial earnings might not be that significantly high. The scheme is a big assistance and I hope employers will see it as such.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister urged county managers to support the scheme. During my time as mayor of Cork County Council in 2010 I was calling for that kind of scheme for the local authorities and the county manager, a former student of the Minister's, Mr. Martin O'Riordan, has been very supportive of the scheme. He has returned to the Department.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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With the Arts Council and the county arts officers, the Department launched a scheme to offer high quality internships working with arts officers to provide expertise for festivals, for example. Cork County Council has been fantastic in taking advantage of the scheme. The same applies to Clare County Council which always takes advantage of any opportunity offered and is prepared to give people a start. A number of county councils are highly successful in this regard. I have also had discussions with the deputy manager of Dublin City Council, with whom Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh will be familiar, and he is also very anxious to work the scheme. I have had discussions with the county manager in my own county about taking it up.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Deputy Ray Butler wishes to ask a question about the self-employed.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I know I have been hounding the Minister for the past 18 months to two years on the issue of the self-employed and that a report has been compiled, although I am unsure whether it has been finalised. Self-employed persons pay the S class stamp at the rate of 4%. Such businesses may not be doing as well as they were during the Celtic tiger era and there has been a slowing down in the domestic economy. I have a self-employment background and know that a self-employed person pays income tax when in profit and if he or she is merely breaking even and making drawings, he or she pays tax on these drawings. I would prefer to put 1.5% into a stamp payment which would entitle me, as a self-employed person, to illness and disability benefit. I see all sides of the argument, but this would be the first time in the history of the State that self-employed persons would be recognised in the social protection system. If this is not possible now, I ask when can it be done because it is very important. The Minister has been excellent in her attitude to the self-employed and has held up the banner very well. She has lowered the bar in order that self-employed persons can get help during a business crash when they have nothing and have to care for young families and have mortgages to pay. However, I await the report in order that we can take it from there.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I assure the Deputy that politicians who canvassed recently in County Meath will know that this is a very big issue. During the boom many involved in the construction and other industries who traditionally worked as employees found themselves working as contractors and subcontractors. In many cases, they did not want to be self-employed contractors, but this was necessary in order to take up the available opportunities. The expert group's report on the issue has been recently received by the Department and we are examining it. An issue arises from the review of the actuarial fund. Self-employed persons pay at a rate of 4%, for which they receive retirement pension and widow's-widower's or partner's pensions and retirement payments. That represents very good value. Extending this to include other benefits will require a contribution sufficient to cover the cost over time. I am glad that the Deputy has acknowledged that a great many people who lost their self-employment status qualify after a period of time for social welfare payments. As he said, it is very important assistance to the individuals concerned. They are usually in the 38 to 52 year age group and homeowners and their children are young; therefore, they have many commitments. We want to help them to keep the roof over their heads.

The chairperson of the advisory group briefed the Cabinet sub-committee on economic recovery on how the Department was assisting many former self-employed persons to access benefits, depending on how precarious their situation was. The chairperson stated she was surprised at the number in that position.

We must plan for the future. Those who are graduating this year, at both second and third level, are facing a world where they will most likely go through various stages in their careers, whether as traditional employees, contractors or subcontractors, or as entrepreneurs who set up their own businesses.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but we have very little time remaining. The main issue for Deputy Ray Butler and the sub-committee is when the report will be published. It is important that we have sight of it before the media and time for a proper discussion.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have been able to facilitate the sub-committee in the case of previous reports. In fact, I have made it a priority to do so. In the case of the actuarial review, for example, there was actually some criticism from the media because the sub-committee had received it first.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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One particular media outlet claimed to have obtained that report first, it having allegedly been leaked. That, however, was not the case.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Yes, it had not leaked. It went to the sub-committee first.

The Mangan committee indicated that 85% of formerly self-employed persons who had submitted claims did obtain access to social welfare supports. The outcome of such claims depends in large part on the production of information by claimants, something which has also become apparent in the case, for instance, of the farm assist scheme. For self-employed persons generally, the information basis is the previous year's accounts. However, the enhanced capacity of the Department means that we can now take into account substantial changes in circumstances, an issue I have discussed with the Irish Farmers Association recently. Until recently the system was much more rigid, it being a case of last year's accounts or nothing. Now officials can take account of circumstances where a self-employed person or farmer has experienced a catastrophic loss of income and is in financial dire straits. If such persons provide us with up-to-date information, we are able to help them much more quickly.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a more general question for the Minister which nevertheless ties in with the issues we have been discussing. The Government is due to award several large public sector construction contracts in the near future, including, for example, the contract to rebuild Cork Prison. The contract for construction of a road under Newlands Cross in south County Dublin has already been granted to BAM Constructors. I understand it will be a fly-under rather than a flyover.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I cannot wait for it.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We can look forward to chaos on the Naas Road for two years.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There is an excellent distributor road running along the edge of the Chairman's constituency which takes one onto the Naas Road.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It will be interesting.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I raise the issue of these major public contracts in the context of our discussion of the numbers on the live register. All such contracts should include an incentive that would encourage the successful companies to take construction workers and others off the live register. We have seen in recent years how European-based companies tend to arrive here lock, stock and barrel, with little or no employment opportunities for local people. That is a source of frustration for the unemployed construction workers who have not yet left the country. I urge the Minister to raise this issue at the Cabinet.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I assure the Deputy that I raise this issue at Cabinet almost every week and the message is getting through. In the case of small-scale construction contracts involving schools, for instance, many other Deputies and I are concerned that several were won by companies outside the jurisdiction. As part of our broader control and anti-fraud efforts, a joint project is under way between the control and special investigations unit of my Department and the Department of Education and Skills to ensure staff employed on these sites are properly registered for PRSI, tax and insurance. That is extremely important.

The Deputy raises the important question of how we can encourage Irish employers to give people who have been on the live register a chance. Many of them worked successfully for ten, 15 or 20 years only for their employer to go bust in the crash. They find themselves in a situation, through no fault of their own, where one year on the dole becomes two, three and so on. Research from the United States shows that an employer will choose a person who has just left school or college and has little or no experience in preference to a candidate who has a one, two or three year gap on his or her CV. Such gaps tend, unfortunately, to make a person unattractive from an employment point of view. That is why we are focused on the stepping stones that will assist people to return to the labour market. Some 25,000 are participating in the back to education allowance scheme, for instance, with significant numbers also engaged in JobBridge, community employment schemes, Tús and now the local authority scheme. These are critical because for people who participate in such schemes, even if they do not provide exactly the type of job they want, their chances of getting back to work, either in a new field or their original field, are hugely enhanced. That is why, despite the pressures on the Department's budget, we have increased the amounts we are devoting to employment supports. In the case of FÁS, SOLAS and the VEC area, I agree with Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Brendan Ryan that we must find courses that are relevant.

On the youth employment guarantee-----

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I again apologise for interrupting the Minister, but I am conscious that we have only eight minutes remaining to go through four programmes. We must conclude at 3.45 p.m. because another meeting is due to take place. I suggest we cover the final four headings in the time remaining and ask the Minister to get back to the sub-committee on any question she does not have time to answer today. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will be very brief. Under the heading dealing with supports for children, there is an indication that €123 million was saved as a result of the changes to the one-parent family payment. The amended provision for after-school child care, school meals and so on adds up to €18.5 million. Will we see an increase in the proportion of that €123 million going to some of these projects?

We have dealt with the issue of rent allowance. While the increases in the thresholds are welcome, they are still not high enough in a context where rents in this city and elsewhere continue to rise. Is the recent change reflected in the Revised Estimate?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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No. We have spent an additional €7 million or thereabouts on rent allowance this year as a result of the review.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is there any indication at this stage of the cost implications of the new local authority housing assistance payment scheme?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is referred to as HAP, or one might say "happy".

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Or hapless.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I prefer "happy".

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will it impact on next year's Estimate or is it more likely to be 2015 before we see a roll-out?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Deputy Brendan Ryan may ask a brief question.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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My question relates to the illness, disability and carers heading.

Illness benefit payments come to an end after two years.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Two years.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Yes. Those in receipt of the benefit, who in many cases continue to be certified by departmental medical practitioners, have been advised that at the end of the two-year period they should consider applying for the invalidity pension. Receipt of the latter payment depends on whether one is likely to be ill for over a year or is permanently incapable of work. These are the conditions of the scheme. However, applicants are told their applications are refused because it is considered that they are not permanently incapable of work. Reference is not made at all to whether one is likely to be ill for a year or more. Could the Minister comment on this? Of those who apply for the invalidity pension when their illness benefit payments end, what percentage are refused?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked about children and after-school services. We are rolling out the 6,000 after-school places. Some were rolled out on a pilot basis towards the end of April. We hope to have all of them rolled out by the start of the new school year in September. We will be concentrating on and emphasising parents' going back to work, be they lone parents or part of a couple. There is an area-based approach to child poverty modelled on developments that have taken place in areas such as Ballymun and Tallaght. I am anxious to see this initiative rolled out. As the Deputy knows, a jobless household with a number of children could have specific problems and issues such as children not being connected well in school. Families could be in contact with a variety of services. The area-based approach would mean that all service providers in the area would come together so there would not be different social workers knocking on the door about different issues. There would be a holistic approach to the child and family. In other countries, that is the kind of service that provides the best outcomes, and this is what we need. What I propose is an ambition of mine, but we are just at the beginning of the development phase. It has much potential.

With regard to rent allowances, I said the cost was approximately an extra €7 million. This is not in the Estimate. We will have to meet the cost within the context of our overall budget. With regard to the housing assistance payment, which we hope will result in a happy outcome, the Government agreed in principle in March 2012 to transfer responsibility for rent assistance for people with a long-term housing need to housing authorities, using the new housing assistance payment. The rent supplement will be used for its original intention - that is, to serve as a short-term income support once the housing assistance payment becomes fully operational. The piloting of the housing assistance payment is subject to the necessary legislative arrangements. This is being advanced by our colleagues at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, namely, the Minister, Deputy Phil Hogan, and the Minister of State Deputy Jan O’Sullivan.

It has been agreed that by the middle of July a memorandum will be presented to the Government by the Department of Social Protection and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government outlining the heads of a Bill to support the housing assistance payment and detailing the economic assessment, including an interim report on the business planning process. This will provide an update on the legal position regarding the principle of deducting rents from social welfare payments by agreement in regard to the rent contribution. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has been very keen to achieve that, for obvious reasons. However, the Deputy knows from his local authority the number of different types of applicant and types of housing. There are 66 separate schemes and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is working on a unified one.

I will forward Deputy Ryan the detailed statistic he requires. With regard to invalidity pension applications, 17,800 have been decided on. Of these, 64% have been refused. In other words, 36% have been accepted. Of the 11,000 refusals, 4,765 have been subject to appeal. Fewer than half of applicants refused actually appealed. Approximately half of those who appealed were rewarded the invalidity pension. Quite a small number were allowed a partial allowance. Approximately 21% appeals were disallowed and 2.6% were withdrawn. In the Longford office, we have achieved a great turnaround in dealing with the applications. The Deputy should remember that the limitation on illness benefit was introduced in 2009. Therefore, there are now a considerable number of people emerging from the illness benefit period and perhaps seeking an invalidity pension or, in some cases, returning to jobseeker's payments. Circumstances differ. With the new IT infrastructure circumstances are improving, but we certainly have more work to do.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We can return to these issues at our next budget meeting in July.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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What about the high refusal rate of 64%?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy should provide the details of the specific case. I will undertake to examine the matter. If Deputy Ó Snodaigh has a specific case in mind, particularly in regard to some of the young people, he should give us the details and we will undertake to examine them.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We can have further updates at the next meeting. I thank the Minister and her officials for attending.