Seanad debates
Wednesday, 3 December 2025
Defamation (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (Resumed)
2:00 am
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the House again this afternoon for the continuation of Committee Stage of the Defamation (Amendment) Bill 2024. Amendments Nos. 16 and 17 are in the name of Senator Keogan but as she is not here, they cannot be moved.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 18:
In page 16, between lines 20 and 21, to insert the following: “34EA. (1) Where a defendant in defamation proceedings relating to his or her engagement in public participation makes an application referred to in section 34E(1), he or she may also make an application, on notice to the plaintiff in those proceedings, for a declaration by the court that the proceedings or part thereof amount to abusive court proceedings against public participation.
(2) Unless a judge orders otherwise, the claimant is not permitted to amend his or her pleadings in the proceeding—(a) in order to prevent an order under this Act dismissing the proceeding, or
(b) if the proceeding is dismissed under the Act, in order to continue the proceeding.”.
My colleague, Senator Higgins, and I have already spoken to the amendment. I will press it.
Tá
Victor Boyhan, Joanne Collins, Joe Conway, Nessa Cosgrove, Eileen Flynn, Alice-Mary Higgins, Aubrey McCarthy, Maria McCormack, Michael McDowell, Rónán Mullen, Conor Murphy, Sarah O'Reilly, Lynn Ruane, Nicole Ryan, Pauline Tully.
Níl
Niall Blaney, Manus Boyle, Paraic Brady, Cathal Byrne, Alison Comyn, Martin Conway, Teresa Costello, Shane Curley, Paul Daly, Aidan Davitt, Mark Duffy, Mary Fitzpatrick, Robbie Gallagher, Garret Kelleher, Mike Kennelly, Seán Kyne, Eileen Lynch, PJ Murphy, Margaret Murphy O'Mahony, Linda Nelson Murray, Evanne Ní Chuilinn, Noel O'Donovan, Joe O'Reilly, Anne Rabbitte, Dee Ryan, Gareth Scahill, Diarmuid Wilson.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome Deputy Aisling Dempsey and her guests, Councillor Padraig Coffey, Councillor Caroline O’Reilly and Councillor Wayne Harding. We also have Mr. Kashif Ali, who is an area representative with Fianna Fáil. He is very welcome as well. I hope they all enjoy their visit to Leinster House.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 19:
In page 17, between lines 13 and 14, to insert the following: “(3) Where an application for declaration has been made before or during a trial of action and costs, a judge must not strike out a claim and appeal under section 34E if the claimant satisfies the judge that—(a) the claim is likely to prevail at trail, and
(b) the harm suffered or likely to be suffered by the claimant as a result of the defendant’s expression is sufficiently serious that the public interest in permitting the proceeding to continue outweighs the public interest in dismissing the case before trial.”.
Vótáil.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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According to the Standing Orders it is two and one.
Joe Conway (Independent)
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We have actually passed five minutes.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ruane, we will certainly adhere to that now. We are just getting the Standing Orders. It was a two and one. Just give us a moment, please. Thank you.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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We called two and one. We have been locked out of these rooms before when we do not come in on time. We called two and one.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Defamation (Amendment) Bill 2024, amendment-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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We would like a commentary on what just happened. I am not going to a vote until we have a decision that is made that clearly says that Standing Orders - two and one does not matter anymore, so four and four. Are we saying we can knock on the door after eight minutes and demand that we are let in?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Under Standing Orders we move to the vote. Defamation (Amendment) Act 2024, amendment No. 19 in the name of Senator Lynn Ruane.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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The question is that the amendment be made.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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No. I am sorry, this is absolutely outrageous.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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Yes. I have actually never seen this ever.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I have never experienced this to happen and it is not okay.
Robbie Gallagher
Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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A vote has been called. There are rules in the House.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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They called it from the Chair - two and one. The doors should be locked after two and one.
Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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The Senators stood there for two minutes and continued it on.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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No, sorry. Hang on a minute. That was after the point.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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For the record, the Acting Chair said we will now take account of the fact that the Senator has raised this issue, and subsequent to that eight Members are allowed to enter the room. I think the record should state that.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Could the Senators resume their seats so we can proceed with the vote, please? Thank you.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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No. No, it is not okay because if that was Opposition we would be locked out of the room-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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-----and not get into the vote. It often happens. It is not okay.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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The door was just left purposely - it is not fair. No way.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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With respect, it raises a danger that the Leas-Chathaoirleach or Cathaoirleach could be asked to stay outside of the door to extend the time indefinitely to allow Government Members to be gathered.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Senator, if you have an issue, you can write to the CPPO.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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There are representatives of your group in that and it can be brought to the attention of-----
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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We would like it to state on the record certainly that this vote is not in line with best practice, it is not in line with good practice in the House, and it is-----
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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There is a CPPO meeting tomorrow morning and we can discuss it at that.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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No, because that would defeat the purpose. The vote was called two and one. It was called from the Chair.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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So what you are telling us now is that what is called from the Chair when a vote happens does not stand. If you are not in the room on time, or if people decide that they want to linger outside and then come in at the last second - I am here ten years and we have always abided by the time. So there is precedent right now. What is being set from the Chair is a dangerous precedent-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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-----in terms of how much time we can come in to vote in this room. It has always been four and four and two and one, and it was called from the Chair. You may suspend the House because I am not allowing the vote.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I would note that we are being told that the Cathaoirleach or the Leas-Chathaoirleach is required to take the vote but the vote was called from the Chair, not by the Cathaoirleach or the Leas-Chathaoirleach. So is it the case that anybody can call the vote and then does the Leas-Chathaoirleach or the Cathaoirleach have to magically be in place for the vote to take place?
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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Yes, but there is an issue if the Government is in a position whereby it can effectively, and this raises a question, and we have had the debate on the voting for the Chair and the Leas-Chathaoirleach, that they are serving the House impartially according to the same rules for all. There is a question mark if a Government Member, who is the Leas-Chathaoirleach, delays in entering the chamber is facilitative of the Government being able to bring many more Members in.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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It is the case that the way the Standing Orders-----
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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-----are being interpreted has that effect.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I am going to read out the Standing Orders.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I do not attribute intention to any person but I speak to the effect of what is being done right now.
Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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On that, a Leas-Chathaoirligh-----
Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Alice-Mary Higgins should withdraw the accusation that you deliberately stayed outside-----
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I did not make that accusation.
Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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You did say it. That is exactly what you said.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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What I said explicitly was that the delay in the entry by a Member could be facilitative of this. I said explicitly that I do not state that that is the intention of the actor but it is the effect of the interpretation of the Standing Orders in this way.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Senators, please resume their seats. I am going to read out the Standing Order for the benefit of all here. It says "the period for which the division bell is rung and the interval between the ringing of the bell and the locking of the doors shall be not less than two minutes and not less than one minute respectively". It says "not less". It does not say that it has to be.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Sorry, I did not ask for any doors to be locked.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Why lock the doors? We have all been locked out there and not been able to come in and vote.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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So are you telling me that for the last ten years the Standing Orders did not support me being locked out of this Chamber?
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Are you telling me that the Standing Orders say that historically we have been locked out of this Chamber and that is not supported by the Standing Orders?
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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So in all those cases the Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach had the discretion to extend the period of time but chose not to, on all those instances when we have been locked out in the past. Is that the case?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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We are moving to the Defamation (Amendment) Bill 2024.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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It is either standard or discretionary. It cannot be both or it cannot be one in one case and not in the other case.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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We are going to suspend the House for ten minutes.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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We are on amendment No. 19 in the name of Senator Ruane. The question is that the amendment be made.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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No, we have not had any communication on anything.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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The amendment was moved and the Senator said she was pressing it.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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The sitting was suspended for ten minutes and now the Leas-Chathaoirleach has come back and taken the Chair without there having been any conversation on the substantive issue at hand. Is that what I am hearing?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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This matter is not to be resolved on the floor of the House. I told the Senator earlier that the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight, CPPO, is the route for that. We will discuss the matter at the next CPPO meeting.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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Rather than even calling a new vote, for example, the Leas-Chathaoirleach is proceeding with the vote whereby the time of two and one, which has always been applied previously, is now not being applied because she is telling us it is a discretionary matter. In other words, that there is a minimum of two and one and there is no maximum. In effect, on such a vote, it can be any period of time before people-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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If I go outside to take a phone call, will the Leas-Chathaoirleach wait for me?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 19 has been moved and pressed, so the question is-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Sorry, if I go outside now, will you wait for me to get back in? No, you will not.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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By way of clarification, if a vote is called now, is it a recall bell or a vote bell? Not everybody is here.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Now it is a recall bell. Will there be another two and one the vote you are now calling?
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Now it will be four and four. Is the Leas-Chathaoirleach saying she has recalled the vote?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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That was a recall bell because we were suspended. We are now back in session. The amendment was already moved and spoken on and it is being pressed. I am now putting the vote to the House.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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People were let in when the doors were closed.
Mary FitzpatrickLynn Ruane (Independent)
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Sorry, but the Senator knows quite well from the years she is here that people get locked out when they are not here on time. We get locked out all the time.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Exactly. When it does, I do not start knocking on the door saying, "Sorry, I am just 30 seconds late. Let me in". I respect the process.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Will you please resume your seat, Senator Ruane?
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I will not resume my seat. I am sorry but you are an impartial, non-voting Member. Even if you were not in your seat to take the vote at the time, those doors should be locked to voting Members after the period that is called. The Acting Chairperson at the time actually instructed that the doors be closed, but, still, more people opened the doors and walked in.
Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, may I ask the two Members opposite to go and talk to some of their own people who know the Standing Orders of the House and how it operates, because they obviously do not?
Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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This happened today and it happens every other day. There is no difference today.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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We are familiar with the Standing Orders.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Will the Senators please resume their seats?
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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It is important to note that in the context of the Standing Order that was read into the record, we have been told there is a minimum of two minutes and a minimum of one minute-----
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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Yes. It has never been the case that this was treated as a discretionary three minutes.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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Now it is being treated as discretionary. It should be at least three minutes, but it could effectively be any number of minutes. Will people be able to leisurely stroll up from the Members' restaurant?
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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What is the result if we disallow a precedent in how that Standing Order has been interpreted and allow it to be interpreted in a way in which it has not been interpreted before, certainly in the nine years I have been in the House?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Senators, resume your seats and have respect for the House.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I have respect for the House. That is why I am in my chair on time when the bells ring. Okay? I do that because I have respect for the House. If I get locked outside, I do not get to vote because I have respect for the House and the rules this House has abided by for exactly the ten years I have been here. So I do have respect for the House.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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If you and Senator Higgins do not resume your seats, we are going to have to suspend the House again.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Again, is that what the Senators want?
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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It is what has been made necessary. During the previous suspension, there was no engagement of any kind and no attempt to clarify matters. In fact, it seemed that the vote was being called directly. Then we were told it might be a recall bell and then we were told it might be a case of four and four. There is an extreme lack of clarity as to how the rules are being applied right now.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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That is very inaccurate. The House was suspended for ten minutes. That was a recall bell. Every Member was entitled-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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You did not attempt to engage with us during those ten minutes to bring about any sort of resolution before you sat back in that chair.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I confess I was not here when the vote was called. When I arrived here, I did not bang on any doors. I went to open the door and it opened. The Leas-Chathaoirleach was not present in the Chamber. How can a vote proceed if neither the Cathaoirleach nor the Leas-Chathaoirleach is present?
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I have never seen a vote proceed without the Cathaoirleach or Leas-Chathaoirleach.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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The Leas-Chathaoirleach was locked out.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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The doors had to remain open until she came in. That is the correct procedure.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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With all due respect, she can enter through the middle door as a non-voting Member. The two doors for voting Members should be locked.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Either the Cathaoirleach or Leas-Chathaoirleach has to be here for a vote to proceed.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Yes, but the doors still get locked after a period.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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The vote could not proceed until the Leas-Chathaoirleach was here. When she came in, the doors were to be locked. Those are the rules. The Cathaoirleach or the Leas-Chathaoirleach has to be here for a vote to proceed.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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With respect to the Chair, the argument being made by the Leader right now relates to the issue of the Cathaoirleach or Leas-Chathaoirleach being in the Chair. The argument in relation to seats does stand up because there is an additional door through which only the Cathaoirleach or Leas-Chathaoirleach can pass and which an be kept open even if the doors for voting Members were to be closed. Crucially, however, that is not the argument that was read into the record. What was read into the record was that the two and one is only a minimum. That was read by the Leas-Chathaoirleach into the record as a rationale. That, for me, is a crucial point. We have been told that, in effect, the two and one is discretionary.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Will you please resume your seats, Senators? You know that when the Cathaoirleach or Leas-Chathaoirleach requests it, you are, under Standing Orders, required to resume your seats.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I am not participating in something that actually is against everything we have done in this Chamber for years. We are now optional on the two-and-one. That means if I come to those doors, I should be treated the same as anybody else and allowed in to vote. Some of us have missed voting on our own amendments because we did not get through the doors at the last second. Before the Chair has even opened his or her mouth, we have been refused at those doors. It is not fair, it is not transparent, it is too loose and it is not okay. I will not sit down and participate in the vote on my amendment being called under such conditions.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I have already suggested that there is an avenue that can be used to resolve these issues. We all have representatives on the CPPO. That is the avenue for resolving this issue, not here on the floor of the Chamber. We are here to pass legislation-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Exactly, which is what some of us were in our seats doing.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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The Senator moved and pressed the amendment.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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May I take it from the last comment that the amendment is not being pressed?
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I will just keep talking through everyone else's amendments. I do not mind.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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The amendment has been pressed. The key question is whether there was an appropriate application of the rules relating to time.Very many minutes ago, the vote should have been taken and it was not taken at that time.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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When you took your chair, seven more people came in. Seven more people when you sat in your chair. The doors were still allowing people in.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Sorry, I am the only one who has sat in this chair.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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That is what I said. When you sat in the chair. That is exactly what I said.
Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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The vote had been called when she sat in the Chair, so-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Sorry. Two and one. She sat in the Chair. The bell was rung.
Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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Every time a vote is called, it is called when she rises from her Chair.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Niall, you know quite well that this is an unfair application.
Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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It is no different from any other day. This is ridiculous. You are codding.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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You know quite well. And do you know what?
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I would stand up for this rule just as much for Government as I would for us, because it is fair procedure, end of story.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senators to resume their seats. Senator Mullen.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I have some sympathy with the complaint being made by fellow Members to the extent that there appears to be an inconsistency in terms of what normally happens, but I think from what the Leas-Chathaoirleach has said and quoted from Standing Orders, while there might be a certain inconsistency, which Senators have very validly brought to our attention today, what has happened is not out of order. On that basis, since we are trying to discuss a very important matter, people have put time into the preparation of amendments and the Minister is waiting outside, I think it is fair to say that our colleagues have made their point very strongly, but that it is in everybody's interests, since nothing that is out of order has taken in place, that we now proceed with the business and that we take the Leas-Chathaoirleach up on her point that this matter can be addressed properly for the future. If there is a lack of consistency or some discrepancy which arose today, which has not rendered the proceedings out of order, then steps can be taken at the CPPO to make sure that things happen in a better way in future. I think we should move on at this point.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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What is actually being pointed out there is that something is not in order today, which means that every time I have been turned away from that door, that is not in order.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I am not looking at Senator Mullen, I am-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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That is not what I said. I am saying that nothing out of order-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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That is what I said, so every time I have been turned away from that door, the Leas-Chathaoirleach is telling me that Standing Orders did not support that.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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If the Senator does not agree with me, this can go to the committee, but I intend to put this vote to the floor.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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With respect, it is not a matter of how we proceed better in the future. The point is that we are proceeding today in a different way from how we have always proceeded in the past-----
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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-----so either we are standing over a new form of interpretation of Standing Orders-----
Niall Blaney (Fianna Fail)
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That should be withdrawn. That is not so.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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We are proceeding no differently from any other day and I ask the Senator to-----
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I have never had an instance in which the times were not applied that I have seen in my time, so the clear point is-----
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I will suspend the House for half an hour so-----
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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We can engage with the CPPO for the future, but either there is a question or-----