Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I thank the Minister for being here to consider this legislation which seeks to protect retail workers in their workspace. More than 300,000 people work in retail in every town, village and city in the country. They provide a vital front-line service in all our communities. What this Bill seeks to do is protect them from attack, be it verbal or physical, in their workspace. Before I speak about the Bill itself, I want to acknowledge my former Seanad colleague Deputy Malcolm Byrne, who introduced a similar Bill in the previous Seanad. I also acknowledge the Minister of State and Chief Whip, Deputy Mary Butler, who herself was a retailer prior to her political career. Dealing with the public in the retail space, she progressed into politics. The Minister for Justice will be aware that in the negotiations on the programme for Government, the Minister of State was one of the strong advocates and champions of ensuring it would contain strong commitments to increase safety in the retail space and specifically address retail crime. I thank my Fianna Fáil colleagues Senators Comyn and Rabbitte, who are here, and the Fianna Fáil Group in general for supporting this Private Members' Bill. We have a lot of competition regarding our Bills but the fact that this is our first in this Seanad term indicates the strength of support from the Fianna Fáil Group in the Seanad for addressing this issue.

I also thank RGDATA, which nominated me to contest the Seanad election. It represents more than 3,000 independent, Irish-owned food retailers, including the Spars and Centras. Local shops throughout the country are represented by it. It has been campaigning on the issue of retail crime for quite some time. It undertook a survey of its members and the results confirmed for it what it had been hearing anecdotally. For some, it is somewhat startling to hear that 93% of the RGDATA members surveyed had been victims of shoplifting. More than 25% of its members had been subjected to a violent robbery, and that could include the use of weapons, including knives and guns. Forty percent of RGDATA's members have been subjected to fraudulent activity. These are the headline statistics but we should consider what they mean in real terms for those working in retail. It is a matter of the human experience of going to work to serve other people to provide them with what are largely essential services only to be faced sometimes with what is casual, mindless rudeness and aggression but also what can be sexist commentary and attacks, racist attacks, discriminatory and aggressive language, physical abuse and assault. It takes a real toll on people, including on their daily lives. Some retailers have said it is not just an attack on their livelihoods but also on their lives.

Some independent retailers own their shops and have taken on the liability associated with providing a service in the community. They have taken on the financial risk of buying in stock to provide it to their customers, and they have also taken on the financial and economic responsibility of employing staff. For them, the welfare and safety of their staff are paramount. Ultimately, they find that recruiting and retaining staff, despite increases to the minimum wage and pay, are increasingly difficult. It is a challenge for the employers, including the retailers, but also for all of us because we all need a pint of milk, slice of bread, mobile phone top-up or meter card top-up. If the shops are not available, it will diminish each and every one of our communities.

When things started to open up during the Covid pandemic, the people who were first to get back into action and start to serve us all after the first responders and emergency services were the retailers. They were the ones who opened their shops, put up the plastic screens and wore the masks, and they have taken the brunt of it.I have seen it in my community in Dublin Central in areas such as Cabra, Dorset Street and Phibsborough, and right across the community. On main streets such as Henry Street and Mary Street, I have seen retailers close their doors. The big indicator for me a couple of years ago on this issue was the fact that retailers were not only struggling to hire staff and then retain those staff and customers, but they also had to take on the extra cost, an estimated €40,000 per year per retailer in Ireland, to hire security staff. Those security staff wore body cameras before gardaí did. That is an indication of where things had got to in the retail space. It is, therefore, a really serious issue.

I thank the Minister for being here and giving consideration to this Bill. I hope all of the House will support the Bill because it is something on which there is unanimity. I believe we all value our retailers. We value not only the service they provide, but the dimension they bring to our community and society in creating a safe place where we can all go to have human interaction. It should be a place that we, as a society, value. We should send out a strong indication that we want to protect retail workers and that any attack on retail workers is completely unacceptable.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I second the motion. I add my support for and admiration of Senator Fitzpatrick for this Bill. It is long overdue and something I am glad to support. We must protect our retail workers. They are on the front line. While they are, unfortunately, dwindling now because so much has gone online, we really have to look after the staff we have. From looking at some of the statistics yesterday, retail workers are some of the workers who come in under the minimum wage. In fact, a lot of them earn minimum wage. The onus is definitely on us to protect and look after them.

We are not just talking about physical abuse in this regard. We were questioned this morning whether there are existing laws to look after workers, staff and everyone and anyone through assault laws. These are very different, however. It is not just physical abuse. Quite often, it is psychological abuse and it is relentless. Something happened during Covid-19 where people have lost the run of themselves and they do not know how to speak to people anymore. In another life many years ago, I taught customer service and customer relations. I looked to see what workers are now dealing with in bars and shops and, every day, it is like people have forgotten how to treat people. They see it as fair game to speak to retail workers as they wish. As we have heard, this includes physical attacks.

This is a Bill we should all support. It is very different and outside what we are used to. As I said before, we have to protect those workers we have. I am sure everyone here has either worked in a shop or a bar. We know how difficult and highly pressurised it can be and how little people are being paid. Retail workers need someone to stand up for them. We can do this with this Bill.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for coming in. I commend this Bill and those who have proposed and seconded it. I echo comments concerning former Senator and current Deputy Malcolm Byrne who brought forward this legislation during the previous Administration.

Retail workers are literally on the front line in our cities and towns. They are on the front line interacting with members of their communities every day. For so many people, they can be the only point of social contact they have during the day. It is my experience of people in retail in Ireland, both in Dublin and elsewhere, that they are an important component of what gives Ireland its unique selling point. They are extraordinarily warm and welcoming, despite the difficult conditions under which they work. Retail is tough. You are on your feet all day and have hundreds or thousands of interactions. It is intense. Notwithstanding that, they provide this amazing vibrant community. They are the very fabric of our towns and cities and their communities.I am shocked to see the level of assaults they are experiencing. There was mention of the RGDATA statistics of 40% experiencing fraudulent activity, but 25% - one in four - experiencing a violent robbery, often involving the production of a weapon, whether that be a knife or some other implement or, in many cases, firearms. We must do everything in our power to try to protect these staff. They are the lowest paid workers in the economy. Many of them are new Irish or immigrant workers. They are particularly vulnerable to all sorts of targeted behaviours, whether it be offensive, racist or homophobic language and all sorts of slurs.

We had a presentation in the audiovisual room earlier today about the prevalence of assaultive behaviours. When a person goes into his or her workplace, they expect to feel safe, but when they go into a retail space, they are often on their own. They are the only person in an environment where there is lots of stock and very often a significant amount of cash. They are the person who is the sole trader in terms of having the responsibility for that on a low wage. If the incidence of violence is so high at one in four, then people have anticipatory anxiety about going into work. They will be fearful about what might happen during the day and will always be on edge. They either are the target of such an attack or witness one, which provokes major accelerating factors in the development of chronic stress reaction, and if a person is untreated, they can go on to develop PTSD. If we as the Oireachtas can do anything in our power to help protect these workers, it would be to highlight to those who would engage in such behaviours that we are taking this seriously. The law and order approach and criminalisation of such behaviour is not a solution, but it must be a part of the overall picture.

I am a Dubliner and I am very proud of our city, but Dublin has deteriorated considerably. I would consider the city centre at times to be an unsafe environment. Retailers have no choice but to work in that unsafe environment. For example, we are just one family. One of my sons was the victim of an unprovoked one punch assault on the top of Grafton Street at a taxi rank. All these unprovoked assaults are horrific, but for him it was his first venture into the workplace on an internship and he was wearing a suit. I think the fact he was a young man in suit escorting one of his co-workers to the taxi rank at the top of Grafton Street provoked an individual, who came out of nowhere, punched him in the head and he fell on the ground and hit his head. Luckily for him, the taxi drivers at the rank came to his assistance and luckily everything was okay. This all happened within the past year. One of my other sons, who is a wheelchair user, went to the Lego shop on Grafton Street. Again, it was Grafton Street, which is the primary retail street of our capital city. While he was in there his mobile phone was stolen from him. He is a wheelchair user who has restricted eyesight. His mobile phone would be his lifeline and that was taken from him.

My daughter, who will be 21 next month, and her friends do not like going into town. They prefer to socialise out in the suburbs because they recognise it as being a dangerous place. When they go into town, they do so in groups and look out for each other. Many of them have been targeted by having drinks spiked and so on. This is something they are all very conscious of. They keep each other's locations on Snap Map. They will not allow any of them to go on their own in a taxi. This is the reality and this is situation. Dublin is a bit tired at the moment. It is frayed at the edges.

Related to all of that, I note that, since the Minister has taken office, whether it is my imagination or not but I do not think so, I certainly see a much more visible presence of An Garda Síochána on our city streets. That is one step in the right direction. It may be a small step, but it is a significant step. I commend the Minister on that and An Garda Síochána and the Department for funding that.In addition to this measure, we must be creative in how we reimagine this city. It is so important for all of us who live, work and inhabit this city and all the tourists who come to stay here. I commend this initiative. The Minister has got off to a very good start and we are headed in the right direction.

Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for being here. I echo my colleague that the Minister has got off to a fantastic start and we are delighted to have him here in the Chamber.

I represent Meath West where there are a huge number of businesses across many of our towns, such as Trim, Navan, Oldcastle, and many of our villages. I am also a business owner in Navan. I am in the leisure hospitality sector, so I have first-hand experience of being in business, all the trials and tribulations that come with that and, unfortunately, meeting the odd unsavoury person. To gain a better understanding for today, apart from my own experience, I spoke to Retail Excellence Ireland, which nominated me to the industrial and commercial panel and represents more than 2,200 members.

According to a survey by Retail Excellence Ireland, 20% of retailers experience crime daily - that is one in five every day - and 41% experience it weekly. However, 60% reported abuse of their staff. Imagine coming into work to work hard for yourself and, perhaps, your family, and just because you are doing your job, you are verbally or perhaps physically abused. I had one ice cream shop owner in Navan tell me of how his staff were abused almost weekly and, in fact, one of his staff was spat at in the face.

There is growing aggression and violence towards staff, with perpetrators showing little fear of the consequences of gardaí, which is very concerning. It is especially concerning in towns like Navan, which has seen a crime high in 20 years, and Trim, which has seen a crime high in six years, when we have the lowest number of gardaí per capita in County Meath. In its report on retail crime for November 2024, Retail Excellence said smaller towns such as Navan reported significant shoplifting and staff abuse. It also found security measures are proving less effective as criminals act openly and without fear. I know this is not news to the Minister and that the Government is working on it, but it is important for me to point these things out.

Astonishingly, repeat offenders are a real problem, with many coming back and robbing or abusing staff on the same day. Some 68% of retailers did not feel supported by the Garda, but it is not the Garda's fault. The issue is not with its support but the lack of numbers of gardaí to deal with issues and the lack of punishment for offenders, which is what we are talking about today. I spoke to people in one small shop in Navan - it must be open about 40 years, a lovely family business that is a little clothing shop - who have always run the shop with one staff member but now two are required. Unfortunately, it is not because it is extra busy selling lots of clothes but to keep each other safe. Another shop owner said they live in constant fear of their staff being injured. Is that not a very sad reality?

The following extract is from the Meath Chronicle in March, regarding a much-loved local shop in Navan where a worker wrote the following:

"This evening my place of work in Navan was targeted and violently smashed in by three young men. The reason I say targeted is due to there being all female staff. These thugs threatened and smashed glass onto the staff.

"The girls working there were absolutely terrified and honestly, so are many others working in the area.

"This isn’t just about one incident, it’s about how unsafe ... [the town] has become due to the actions of a small group of young criminals who have no respect for businesses, workers or the community. No one should have to fear for their safety just for doing their job.

"We need more protection, more accountability, and real action to stop this from happening again. It’s time to stand together and make Navan safe again."

[...]

She said they have had so many incidents with the same group of young lads yet they are just getting away with it. “These lads want a reaction. They knew they were barred and the girls were trying to take them out of the store and as they were leaving she tried to close the door and one ran at it and smashed it in.

"You just don't know what they will do next - if they will pick up a of piece of glass and throw it at you.”

When retailers were asked for their top two additional supports that would be most helpful to them when dealing with the impact of retail crime on their business, 27% said legal reform for stricter penalties and 29% said an increase in Garda presence. I believe the two combined would be very impactful.

I am hearing staff are becoming fearful to work in stores due to more aggressive thefts and physical threats to staff. Sadly, I have heard of other customers who simply look on when a member of staff is being abused by a thief. Only on Monday on the Joe Duffy show - I am not sure if the Minister got to hear it - numerous shopkeepers were on speaking about shoplifting and the huge costs it has on businesses. One shop owner had five stores and said on average, approximately €50,000 per year is stolen while another said up to €100,000. One shop owner said they physically put themselves between thieves and the door and they still pass the tills. A huge issue now for these particular retail workers is accusing a person of shoplifting, getting a tirade of abuse and finally getting sued for defamation.I will read a quote one of the store owners:

You have to be incredibly careful because a lot of people now are pretending to steal in the shop so ... they can go for a defamation case. That has become a very common ploy in last 12 months. ... They will literally put stuff in their pocket, they will make sure you see them and then they will go round the back of the shop or ... a corner [of the shop] ... they'll ... [put] the item onto a shelf ... hoping that you challenge them, so you learn to be very careful to watch for those situations ... but where we are 100% sure, we will stop [them] at the door.

The reason I am bringing up this particular point is that it is another way that retailers are losing money and where staff are being abused for accusing someone of shoplifting, and it petrifies both the owner and the retailer to say anything in the first place. From this Bill, therefore, we need to bring forward a strong, tight defamation Bill. As everyone in the House knows, I am passionate about everything to do with insurance. I keep talking about it and about the increase in premiums for businesses and community groups and community centres, but this is another way that premiums will increase if we do not sort out defamation.

I welcome this Bill and I am sure the 300,000 or more people who work in the retail sector will also welcome it. However, I would like to see the term "retail worker" also encompass hospitality and leisure industry workers as well as every other person who works in the service industry.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Ryan is sharing time with Senator Andrews. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Nicole Ryan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I thank Fianna Fáil for bringing this Bill forward. Sinn Féin supports the principle behind this Bill. It is right that we send a clear message that abuse, threats and assault against workers will not be tolerated. However, we have to be honest with people that this Bill on its own will not address the real problem. The crux of the issue is simply not the absence of the specific offences but the absence of gardaí, which a few other Senators have also mentioned.

Retail workers, business owners and ordinary members of the public are crying out for a visible Garda presence on our streets, in our towns and in our communities. Instead, however, we have a situation where Garda numbers are falling as our population continues to grow. Replies to parliamentary questions have confirmed that more than 1,600 gardaí are eligible for retirement over the next five years, and it is not something we have heard for the first time today. Yet, the Government has failed to expand Garda recruitment and retention, and the intake capacity at Templemore remains completely insufficient for the challenge we face. Today's Bill is a small and very welcome step, but it does risk tinkering around the edges unless something is backed by real action on the ground.

Retail workers deserve more than symbolic legislation. They deserve to feel safe when they go to work. That requires investment in Garda visibility. It involves investment in community policing and youth diversion services as well. We are still living with the legacy of austerity-driven cuts, the hollowing out of community infrastructure, the stripping back of youth services and the long-standing neglect of crime prevention measures. All these failures have contributed, unfortunately, to an unsafe environment faced by retail workers today. If the Government is serious about protecting retail workers, it would not be rowing back on commitments on implementing the living wage, which has now been shelved until 2029, nor would it have shelved the auto-enrolment scheme, which has now been pushed from September to January of next year. Respecting workers means respecting them inside their workplace as well as outside their workplace.

Sinn Féin does support the Bill, but we are clear: we really need real change, and that only happens when the Government matches legislative change with proper investment in Garda recruitment and community development and workers’ rights. As everybody has mentioned so far, retail workers, and all workers, deserve not just new laws but a society in which they feel they are safe, they have dignity and have livelihoods that are genuinely protected.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Fitzpatrick for introducing the Bill. It is important that retailers and retail staff are protected. The suggestion that it would be extended to hospitality workers should be considered. Having worked in bars and restaurants and having been a retailer myself at one stage, I know quite well the challenges that retailers are facing.

I do not think there is anything in this Bill that people will argue about or that is contentious because my understanding is that, if someone is assaulted, it is an offence. As Senator Ryan said, the difficulty is that there is not the necessary enforcement of those offences, and there needs to be.You can introduce all the laws in the world, but unless they are enforced and resources are put into policing them, it does not really matter. That is not to diminish the purpose of the Bill. In 2024, the Dublin city task force produced a report about improving the public realm and living in Dublin. That would be of benefit to retailers. However, it seems to be gathering dust. It is having no impact on inner city communities and the area it covers does not extend into the south inner city. It covers Westmoreland Street and around Trinity College, but that is the entire extent. You have a south inner city community and a north inner city community. The previous Mulvey report divided the one community into two, in the context of resources, facilities and community resources for community and youth clubs.

While the Bill is welcome, retailers are under siege. Up around Moore Street the place is horrific to shop in. It is the Senator's own constituency, and she knows it well. There are plans to improve that. Sinn Féin had a Bill to improve it and bring culture and arts back into Moore Street. That is what we have to do. We are not going to police our way out of it. As Senator Clonan said, there have to be other measures, but we have to ensure policing resources are put in place and that is not happening. Retailers feel under siege at the moment. That has not happened overnight. It has not happened in the past few months. It happened under a Fine Gael Minister for Justice and that is the reality. I know we are not supposed to be overly political here, but the reality is that a Fine Gael Minister for Justice oversaw the demise of the retail sector in Dublin and right across the country. We cannot just wipe the slate clean as if Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil had nothing to do with the demise of the retail sector over the past few years. They are responsible for that demise and the sense of terror and fear people working in the retail sector have.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Cosgrove is sharing time with Senator Stephenson. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House. I thank Senator Fitzpatrick for bringing this Bill forward. As a party that always stands up for workers, the Labour Party welcomes the Bill and the sentiment of it. It is poignant that it is union week, and it is coming up to May Day. I am proud to say that my Labour Party colleague Ruairí Quinn brought in a public holiday on 1 May to celebrate workers’ day. This morning, we were at a briefing on the protection of SNA workers and teachers. It is important that we not only look at the protection of workers, but also at payments for workers. I know this has particularly come up with retail and hospital workers, who are some of the most low paid in our society. It is unfortunate to see the Government rowing back on basic provisions for workers, going back to five days from the commitment to seven days for sick pay and reneging on pension auto-enrolment. Most important, it is delaying the move from the minimum wage to the living wage. Having said that, I am the Labour Party spokesperson on workers' rights and it is important to me that these concerns are listened to, without taking away from the Bill.

I note that we marked Workers' Memorial Day on 28 April, a few days ago. People should be able get up in the morning, go into work and come home from work in a safe space. I hope there is recognition for that. As other Senators have said, I am not sure the Bill will bring anything new but at least it ensures people are recognised, appreciated and respected. In my constituency in Sligo, during Covid, a woman, Paulina, was assaulted when she was working just for asking somebody to put on their mask. There was a similar situation in Letterkenny. While other workers stayed at home, these people were going out to work in low-paid jobs and providing essential services. There was a lot of clapping people on the back and recognition of cleaners, care workers and others in low-paid jobs at the time but as soon as Covid ended we rowed back on that. Is there any way we could bring statutory sick leave back up to seven days? I know Fianna Fáil as a party is now in a position to be able to look at this, ensure we are moving towards a living wage, and to change the narrative around that. Otherwise, we are very happy to support this Bill.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am very happy that this Bill has come forward. I am delighted Fianna Fáil introduced it. I support the intention and essence of the Bill. As Senator Nelson Murray said, it would be fantastic to see it extended to hospitality workers. There are lots of data available to us. For example, a study from Galway indicated that 76% of hospitality workers experienced verbal abuse, 64% experienced psychological abuse and 15% experienced physical abuse. It would make a difference to them to be included. Senator Nelson Murray also spoke about the leisure sector. The measures must have a breadth to them to ensure the Bill is responsive.

As Senator Ryan mentioned, it is important to be honest with people and to take a holistic approach. It is necessary to protect workers in the retail space. We are all in agreement that no one should be in a dangerous position when they go to work. Taking a holistic approach includes providing a living wage and respecting people both inside and outside the workplace. I echo what was said in that regard.

The effect of abuse does not stop immediately after it happens. It can have long-term physical and psychological effects. We should consider the inclusion in the Bill of mandating support for affected workers. Senator Cosgrove mentioned extending sick leave. What else can we do? We could include legal assistance where necessary, have paid leave for recovery and provide access to counselling.

Senator Clonan mentioned that the hospitality and retail sectors are both made up of young, low-paid workers, often from migrant backgrounds. They are at higher risk of exploitation, misogyny and racist abuse. We could be mindful of that and include relevant measures in the Bill to address the intersecting identities people have that put them at greater risk. They have less agency to speak for themselves and there is potentially even a language barrier.

While it is good to have an increased Garda presence, I do not believe the lack of guards is the root cause of the problem. The root cause of crime is poverty and social exclusion. It is very good that we are having this debate today. In an hour or two we will also have a discussion on youth diversion. These things are inherently linked. The increase in crime comes from people being excluded from society, and suffering as a result. Violent theft is always a bad thing but what is the root cause driving it? It is not just due to a lack of gardaí on the street. I am supportive of the essence of the Bill. I hope we can work together and that we can add a few things to strengthen it on Committee Stage.

Teresa Costello (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I commend my colleague, Senator Fitzpatrick, on bringing forward this Bill. The truth is simple. Everyone deserves to feel safe in their community, on the street, and in their place of work but that sense of safety is under threat. It has already been mentioned today that Ireland now has the highest level of retail crime, per capita, in the world. I will let that sink in. Retail crime costs us an estimated €1.62 billion every single year. This is not just a statistic; these numbers represent real businesses, real jobs and real communities that are under pressure.

In my area of Tallaght, I can name several businesses that are the backbone of our community. The local shops in Glenview sit in the heart of the housing estate. They are a friendly place where people drop in for their essentials, but they offer something more. They offer a connection. If someone does not come in for a few days it does not go unnoticed. If someone cannot make the trip to the shops then a pint of milk might just be delivered to their door.That is what community means and we are risking losing it. Just yesterday, when I was scrolling through Instagram I was horrified by a video by a young Dublin business owner. She made the devastating decision to shut down her premises, not because of sales or footfall, but because she no longer felt safe. Her staff were being escorted to and from work by their partners and they had witnessed violence outside the shop. This is not how our retail workers should be forced to operate. It is just not right.

Let me bring Senators back to the 1980s in Tallaght. The Tallaght Town Centre was right in the village. It is long gone now, but to this day people my age and older still speak fondly of it. You were not really from Tallaght if your mam did not bring you there to get your confirmation outfit. A shop is not only a shop. It is where people go to buy their bread and milk but it is also where people chat, meet the neighbours, share news and form friendships. Let us be clear. Not to fiercely protect our retailers and retail workers would be to abandon something truly vital to our economy, but even more so to our sense of community. Let us stand up for those who stand behind the counters. Let us ensure our streets and shops are safe and not wait for more videos, closures and heartbreak before we act.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before I call the next speaker, I welcome guests from Roscommon of former Senator Mary Seery Kearney. I see David there. They are in good hands. I hope they have a good day in Leinster House. I wish them well. They will be interested that the next speaker is from Roscommon, Senator Scahill.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House. The Protection of Retail Workers Bill 2025 is a timely and necessary step in acknowledging the challenges retail workers face and offering them real enforcement protection. I therefore commend the Senators on bringing forward the Bill.

Retail workers are the visible face of commerce in every community, from corner shops to petrol stations, local supermarkets and family run stores. However, in rural Ireland these workers are often the same people who run the business. The role is not only about service. It is about community. When we talk about protecting retail workers we must also speak about protecting retail businesses because the two cannot be separated. That is especially true in small towns and villages across the west of Ireland where a single business might employ half a dozen people and keep the heart of the community alive. Retail crime and abuse are on the rise. From theft and threats to verbal abuse and harassment, workers are facing growing hostility. This Bill rightly recognises that retail work should not come with daily risk.

There is also another threat that is less visible but just as damaging to businesses and this Bill must help us to begin us to address it. It is retail defamation. Retail defamation refers to false, harmful and often public accusations made against businesses, which can be severely damaging to reputations, customer trust and staff morale. I mentioned in the House previously that I heard from retail businesses recently that they do not follow people they suspect of stealing from their businesses, mainly because the likelihood of a conviction is low, but also because they open themselves up to a defamation case for accusing someone. If someone has a history of stealing, they should not have a character to protect. We owe it to the businesses to protect the businesses in that situation.

In a rural town where every customer counts, one defamation post on social media can be catastrophic. It can deter customers, spark rumours and undo years of honest hard work overnight. I have spoken to business owners who have to defend themselves online against false claims without the time, resources or legal advice to do so effectively. It many cases it is a battle they are forced to fight alone. This needs to change. If we are serious about supporting retail workers and businesses, especially in rural Ireland, we must take a broader view of protection which also includes protection from defamation and digital abuse. This Bill opens the door to that conversation so I propose we use this opportunity to push for recognition that retail defamation is a form of abuse, especially when it targets individual shops or staff through online platforms. A support system for small businesses, including quick response mechanisms for dealing with false accusations and access to legal guidance or mediation services is needed. In rural Ireland, the local shop is not just where we buy bread and milk, as some of my colleagues have said. It is where we meet our neighbours, post letters, get prescriptions and hear the latest news. These businesses are anchors in towns that are already fighting depopulation, infrastructure issues and rising costs. When they are attacked, physically or reputationally, it affects everyone. This Bill, while focused on worker protection, must be seen as part of a wider effort to defend the entire rural retail ecosystem. Let us send a message that abuse and false accusations, whether in-store or online, have no place in our communities. Let us back our shopkeepers, staff and small businesses not just with words but with legislation, and give them the tools to respond, rebuild and continue to serve. To every business owner, especially in the west of Ireland, working long hours to keep their doors open, and to every retail worker who stands behind a counter facing the public each day, you deserve respect, security and protection. The Protection of Retail Workers Bill 2025 is a critical start. Let us not just stop at physical abuse. Let us include reputation, dignity and fairness in that conversation, especially for rural businesses that are too open and left to fight this battle on their own.

On what Senator Andrews said about the previous Minister, today is about protecting retail workers' rights. Let us pass this Bill today and push it through the House. Let us not use it as an opportunity to gain bonus points.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator cannot pretend it was not Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael who oversaw the issues.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not that long since you were a Fianna Fáil TD yourself.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Through the Chair, please. Senator Andrews had his time to speak.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us pass this Bill and not use it as an opportunity.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister is very welcome. I am delighted he was here to hear the entire debate. I am delighted to speak in support of the Bill and to commend Senator Fitzpatrick, who has introduced it today. The conversation so far has been very open and engaging. It also widened my perspective as to other pieces that may be within the Minister's grasp to include within the cusp of the Bill. In rural Ireland, as my colleague from Roscommon said, the local shop is where our children get their first job. The local SuperValu or Gala filling station will give the child an opportunity to learn about sales and interaction with people. It is the money that sends our children to college. Sometimes I think shops in rural Ireland play a huge role supporting families in getting education all the way through. The recruitment and retention opportunities that these employers provide for parents but also for the young people are phenomenal.

As my colleague Senator Comyn has said, something changed after Covid. I think people got a little bit sharper in their approach. When we send our children out to work for their first opportunity, we do not expect them to become the fall-guys for abuse. No employer, none of the shop owners, wishes to put people in the way of that experience. That is why this Bill is so essential. It is essential to protect and respect the employer and the staff. That is why I welcome this real opportunity to set down a clear marker and message that attacking a retail worker is not a minor offence but a serious crime. We also need greater Garda visibility in retail areas, stronger employer supports, and a cultural shift to recognise and respect the vital role that workers and the employers play in our community.

Earlier today I was talking to Senator Alison Comyn from Drogheda about her high street. She said an exercise was done where the local Garda put the van outside a shop on the main street, and shoplifting went down by 60%. That is what my local SuperValu and Gala stations are telling me, that they do not take on the crime, because where will it go? The other side of it is that when you live in the community, you are open to victimisation if you take on somebody and you could be open to the defamation piece of it. Communities are very small. People walking down the street, having challenged somebody, could lose trade. We are trying to keep our businesses open. Let us consider the online market. We are trying to keep local clothes and shoe shops open. I saw a report on "Crimecall" the other night about a case where somebody went into a shop and walked out with two pairs of runners very easily. It was captured on video but there is probably very little follow-up on that. I again commend Senator Fitzpatrick, and thank her for bringing this forward and giving us the opportunity to speak. I have two children. A local supermarket gave them independence and a first opportunity to meet people. It has played a pivotal role in sculpting my children into the people they are and how they engage with everybody.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Fitzpatrick for bringing forward the Bill. It is the second time during her tenure as a Senator in this term that she has raised the issue of retail crime with me. I discussed the issue with her on a previous occasion a number of weeks ago. I also want to commend and acknowledge the other Senators who have spoken.

This is the second time I have been before this House in response to a Private Members' Bill. I have not been before the other House for a Private Members' Bill yet. I am not trying to denigrate the House of which I am a Member, but there is a lot to be commended when Private Members' legislation comes before either House of the Oireachtas. My Department has to respond to it. I have to engage with it. On many occasions, whether from the Opposition or Government, if there are good proposals in a Bill I will not oppose it and I will want it to proceed. I did that a number of weeks ago when a very sensible Bill came from the Opposition in respect of seeking to prohibit sex for rent. That is something I am advancing. Similarly, in respect of Senator Fitzpatrick's proposal, I will not oppose it. There are a lot of good and sensible measures in it. It should form a central part of our response to a retail crime strategy.

I was also very impressed by the contributions from Members. I would like to reply to the contributions made because they were worthwhile and the fact we are debating this in Seanad Éireann gives an overview of the seriousness with which the political system takes this issue.

Senator Comyn was correct when she indicated that we should not need legislation for this when we have ordinary civility in society and people treat each other well. When there is respect for the integrity of the person, there should not be people attacking retail workers, let alone any other type of workers, in the commercial environment. Regrettably, it is the case that retail workers are subject to attacks and assault. It is also regrettably the case that in many instances such acts have been perpetrated by people under 18 years of age. That makes it a very difficult policy issue to respond to. In our legislation, we designate anyone under the age of 18 as a child and we have very specific rules as to how we deal with a child who comes before the criminal justice system. That may be something we need to examine, but it indicates that there is a real challenge when that happens.

When Senator Comyn referred to Drogheda, I thought of another difficulty that arose on a previous occasion and which, through a Garda investigation and resources, we managed to resolve. There was a big problem with gangland criminality in Drogheda many years ago. The Garda got on top of the issue and clamped down on it, and it was very effective in terms of what the force sought to achieve. There were marches there many years ago; I am sure the Senator was on them. I recall them well. It is an issue which is no longer bubbling up in our society. However, it shows a concerted and co-ordinated response can be very effective.

I was also very impressed by what Senator Clonan had to say. I was sorry to hear about the experience his sons had in town. We have to fight back against the type of thuggery his sons were unfortunate enough to experience. Of course, a greater Garda presence will help, but we also need to recognise that as a society we should not allow the centre of our capital city to be dominated by that type of behaviour. I know gardaí have the primary and principal role to play, but all of us also have a responsibility in trying to take back the city from a small group of people who think they can get away with criminal behaviour because they think they are immune to apprehension, perhaps because of their age. I am also grateful for the comments in respect of the increased visibility of An Garda Síochána on the streets, which has happened. I particularly want to commend Assistant Garda Commissioner Paul Cleary, who has been instrumental in this and I have had discussions with him on it. It has been hugely supported by the public. We are in a very privileged position in Ireland where people want to see more gardaí on the streets. In some countries, people do not want to see members of the police force out there. In Ireland, people want to see more and more members of An Garda Síochána. This poses a challenge for me as Minister and for members of An Garda Síochána but it is a reflection of the high regard in which the service is held.

I also thank Senator Murray for what she had to say about the situation she encountered in Meath. This is similar to what has been discussed by other Members. However, there was an issue the Senator and Senator Scahill raised regarding defamation. If a person who owns a shop thinks that a person has committed a shoplifting offence and they are walking out of the shop, the shop owner is perfectly entitled to stop that person and to say that they suspect the person of shoplifting. They are entitled to engage with the person and raise the issue with them. I am concerned about this. I have heard it from the two Senators and others that sometimes people feel they cannot do that because they will be subject to a defamation suit. If it has been the case that people have been sued for defamation because they made such an approach, they should fight their cases. People are not entitled to claim damages for defamation in response to a perfectly legitimate request by a shop owner to ask somebody if they can check whether or not the person has something on them. It is already provided for in the law but if there is any doubt about it, in the defamation Bill that I will be bringing through Committee Stage in the Dáil this evening, there will be a specific provision to provide legal protection to shopkeepers or retailers who stop a person and make a legitimate query regarding what the person has purchased or whether they have purchased it. Technically, it is referred to as a defence of qualified privilege. In reality, it means that it is an interaction that is perfectly legitimate and protected. Where it will not be protected is if the shopkeeper is malicious in stopping somebody or is disproportionate in their response to the person. This could be using excessive force or falsely imprisoning somebody. These would not be permissible but a proportionate response is certainly acceptable.

I also thank Senator Ryan for her comments on the offence itself. In many respects, I agree with the Senator that the absence is not the problem. We have a lot of offences on the Statute Book. Assault is, as Senator Andrews said, an offence in itself. Nonetheless, raising this issue here and sometimes highlighting an issue in legislation can have a significant effect.

Senator Andrews raised the issue of concerns about the number of gardaí on the streets. We are trying to recruit more gardaí. It is difficult in an economy which has full employment. The last time I visited Templemore, 149 gardaí were attested. Two weeks after that, 200 people started in Templemore. This was the first time since 2019 that 200 or more recruits had started in Templemore. The recent recruitment campaign resulted in expressions of interest from 6,700 people. Recruitment is a challenge and it is my responsibility. We need to start encouraging more people to join An Garda Síochána. It is a great job and can be exciting. I would love to see more positive discussion not just from the body politic but from general society about how worthwhile it is to become a member of An Garda Síochána.

I note what Senator Andrews said about the challenges faced by retailers. The Senator and I represent the same area of Dublin. We are both well aware of certain areas where a small number of people, who I am sorry to say are under 18 years of age, can create havoc in an area by just tormenting a shopkeeper. An Garda Síochána is part of the solution but not the only part. We really need to put more responsibility on parents as well to make sure that they have an idea where their children are and what they are up to and if they are up to wrongdoing that this is responded to.

I listened closely to the comments by Senators Cosgrove and Stephenson. They mentioned many issues to do with the living wage and other matters to do with workers' rights. I will not wade into that since I am here to deal with a justice issue but I have no doubt that the Senators will make those points again to the relevant Minister in charge.Senator Stephenson said the root causes of crime are poverty and social exclusion. Sometimes that is the case but not always. When one examines the crimes of sexual offences, domestic violence and murder many of those are not motivated by poverty or social exclusion. Similarly, in terms of the offenders who come from areas of social deprivation, we must recognise a large number of people who also come from disadvantaged areas do not become involved in the type of harassment and criminality we discussed earlier.

I thank Senator Costello for her contribution in respect of what is happening in Tallaght. There is a general desire for us to try to create an environment where people can feel safe. No one will be able to create a situation where we do not have crime in our society, or where there is no retail theft or, regrettably on some occasions, retail assault. What we want to try to confront and combat are the instances where people who engage in that behaviour think they are immune to apprehension or prosecution. We cannot allow a situation to develop where something like that is normalised. It cannot be normalised.

With regard to Senator Scahill's contribution, I repeat the point with regard to the defamation case. People who are challenged in shops by threats of defamation should fight those cases. The problem is if people do not fight the defamation cases and decide to just pay €5,000 to see the back of them, it is an encouragement to others. However, I think the defamation Bill that will go through, when enacted, will be of significant benefit.

In regard to the legislation itself, I am supportive of it and the Government will not oppose it. There are aspects of the Bill I will need to discuss with Senator Fitzpatrick in terms of how it can be tightened up. The definition of "retail worker" will need to be tightened up. I know there were requests for other types of workers to be included. No matter who is included, if we are to have criminal legislation, we really need to know exactly who is covered by it. That area will be required to be tightened up.

Similarly, in terms of "retail work", there will need to be an identification of what we are talking about in terms of the enactment of legislation. If we are to make certain behaviour criminal, we must know what it is. People have an entitlement to know if they are covered by this legislation or not. As has been mentioned, assault is a criminal offence. Anyone who goes in and attacks a retail worker is guilty of assault. One way to approach this is the way it was dealt with in the hate offences Act enacted last year, which stated that if a person was convicted of an assault, it is a criminal offence but if the assault is motivated by hatred or something like that, there is an extra threshold put on top of it. Maybe a way of looking at this is if a person is convicted of an assault of certain workers fulfilling public duties, that should require a higher threshold. We do this in the most severe cases. We do it in circumstances where a member of An Garda Síochána is murdered. That is regarded as a different offence to any other offence of murder. Also, if we are going to enact the legislation, we will have to expressly and clearly define what type of assault we are dealing with.

Those are issues we can discuss in due course with Senator Fitzpatrick. I am sure other colleagues will be able to contribute to that. However, I wish to go back to the central issue that legislation alone will not solve this problem. Garda resources alone will not solve this problem. We really need a broader retail strategy. I am pleased to say that in the very near future I will meet representatives of the retail sector for the purpose of hearing their views. I listened to their views and attended a meeting, which I suspect Senator Fitzpatrick also attended, in Fallon and Byrne before the election where I received a very graphic and uncensored account of what life is like for people who are working in the retail sector. I am also particularly attuned to the fact that there are very many people who are migrants working in the retail sector. Not only are they subject to the type of assault we are talking about here, but they are also, to be blunt, being subject to racial abuse, which is not permissible. We cannot allow it to stand as though it has been normalised.

There needs to be a broader retail strategy. My Department is working on that. When we put together the retail strategy, there will be a recognition that there needs to be a co-ordinated approach across a whole series of sectors.We need to try to take away the type of encouragement or attraction that arises in terms of people coming into certain shops. We need to examine what technology can do to deter individuals going into certain shops. Earlier today, I approved legislation to provide the Garda with greater resources in terms of facial recognition technology. We all use facial recognition technology on our phones for banking and issues like that. I believe we will have to consider using such technology to protect the retail sector. Similarly, and it is in the programme for Government, we will give consideration to introducing new laws in the public order legislation to suggest that a court would have the power to impose what we would refer to as a barring order on recidivist individuals involved in retail criminality. It would mean that they could not go into certain areas of a town or a city because of their repeated criminal behaviour. It is also a difficult problem because of the fact that this problem cannot be solved by just putting people in prison. We are talking about summary offences in terms of shop theft. In general, people do not receive a custodial sentence for summary offences so we need to look at a different mechanism.

I thank the Chair for the time. I have listened very carefully to what Senators have said and, as I have said, we will not be opposing the Bill.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and the Government for not opposing this Bill. It is an appropriate response considering the cross-party support for the sentiment behind this Bill. The support exists because we all really do value workers. We value retail workers. I take the points made by the other contributors. I refer to the debate on the need to, potentially, expand the definition of workers who would be protected by this Bill or this legislative activity.

Like all Members, I completely accept that legislation alone is not the panacea. In fact, it is only a small contribution to fixing the many challenges our society has. When we introduce legislation, we send a very strong signal that we, as a society and a body politic, place an importance on an issue. In this instance, we are saying that we think it is really important that we respect and protect retail workers. That is why this Bill has received unanimous support, for which I am greatly appreciative.

The contributions have been really valuable. I thank the Minister for accepting the contributions and committing to take them on board when the Department deliberates on the development of a retail crime strategy.

On the protection of people and workers, in this instance it is largely people who are in the minorities. It is young people and, typically, non-nationals. It can also be people who work on their own in a retail setting. As these people are very vulnerable, it is right that we send a signal that we think they need to be protected.

I am a founding director of a community-led justice youth diversion programme that dates back over 14 or 15 years. I commend the Department of Justice, in particular everybody who works in the justice youth space. I commend the Department of Justice, as departmental officials have been incredibly strong in supporting justice youth work, certainly in my own community, and have been highly responsive. I am speaking as a voluntary director of a justice youth service and a youth service. The Department has helped us to respond as a community, because ours is a community-led justice youth service, to the needs. Where a community is engaged and there are dedicated, professional youth workers, and justice youth workers to support not just the young person and his or her families but schools and the wider community, it is highly effective in reducing crime both in a retail space and across the board. Finally, I encourage the Minister, as the new Minister for Justice, to continue this work. I take on board the point made that we already have a crime of assault. We have a crime of assault, assault with harm and assault with serious harm. What we are suggesting is that there should be a further category of crime where it is an attack on somebody who is in the service industry. In this instance we spoke about retail workers but it could be anybody in the service industry. We should work collectively and on a cross-party basis to ensure that the strategy the Minister brings forward is as strong and as effective as possible in order that it sends out that strong signal that we want to protect and respect workers and that it sends a signal to An Garda Síochána, to the courts and to anybody else who is going to be engaged in this that it is a serious crime and it is one that we want to see prosecuted.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Next Tuesday.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 6 May 2025.