Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Nos. 1 and 2 on the Order Paper are motions on the election of the Leas-Chathaoirleach. Both motions will be debated together. I call Senator Seán Kyne to move the motion proposing Senator Maria Byrne.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I move: "That Senator Maria Byrne be elected Leas-Cathaoirleach."

It gives me great privilege to propose the name of my good friend and colleague Senator Maria Byrne for the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach. I would like to acknowledge Senator Byrne's mum, Helen, who is watching online, and give a special mention to her aunt and uncle, Teresa and Paul, who are also watching in.

Maria has long political experience. She is a former member of Limerick City Council, to which she was first elected in 1999. She served as mayor of the treaty city from 2010 to 2011. She is an experienced Senator and is in her second full term. She also won a by-election in the previous Seanad. As a result, she is used to the ups and downs of political life. All those experiences have moulded Maria into the caring and compassionate colleague and person who she is today.

Coming from a business and hospitality background, Maria has experience across a number of briefs in the Seanad. She served as our party's spokesperson on education and skills and finance. The skills and knowledge gained over these years will stand her in good stead as Leas-Chathaoirleach. Above all, Maria is a Senator who has the respect and good regard of our colleagues across the Chamber. She is approachable, a good listener, very fair and balanced and has all the qualities, attributes and skills to make an exceptional Leas-Chathaoirleach. I am delighted to propose Maria Byrne to be Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat. Is there a seconder?

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Is cúis áthais dom tacaíocht a thabhairt don mholadh go mbeidh Maria Byrne tofa mar Leas-Chathaoirleach. Is iarrthóir den chéad scoth í.

Before I make another few remarks, I acknowledge the presence of Maria's colleague the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, in the Gallery. The Minister of State has stepped out of the Chamber for a moment. I also acknowledge councillor Rachel Kerley, and former colleague and Senator emeritus Catherine Noone, who are also in the Gallery.

It is a great pleasure for me to join with the in proposing Maria Byrne for the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach. Maria is respected across the House.She is very collegial, a good colleague and people like her, which is important for the role. That she is liked and trusted by people would be important as she sought to keep order. She would have buy-in from the Members. People know Maria does things for the right reasons and she is very principled and motivated. This all matters.

As Senator Kyne pointed out, Senator Maria Byrne is a distinguished former Mayor of Limerick. She is a former member of Limerick City and County Council and the EU Committee of the Regions. When she had her slight sabbatical, to which Senator Kyne alluded, she used it to pursue a masters degree. She is not just a woman of political letters; she also is a woman of academic letters. This also brings a gravitas and a level of awareness and intellectual depth that would be necessary in the role. For all of these reasons, and the general decency of the person which is the ultimate consideration, I am very proud and happy to second the nomination of Senator Maria Byrne as Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Frances Black (Independent)
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I move: "That Senator Eileen Flynn be elected Leas-Chathaoirleach."

It is a great honour to propose my friend and colleague Senator Eileen Flynn for the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad. Eileen is not just a Senator; she is a beacon of hope and change for many. Prior to her election in 2020 she had dedicated more than a decade of her life as a human rights activist and a community worker. Eileen has tirelessly championed essential causes, advocating for housing rights, marriage equality and antiracism. Her commitment to social justice is not merely a matter of policy but the reflection of her profound compassion for humanity.

Since joining the Seanad in 2020, Eileen has continued to demonstrate her unwavering dedication to the issues that matter most. She has worked diligently to improve mental health services and to ensure that every individual has access to the support they need. She has fought for opportunities for minority groups, striving to create an inclusive society where everyone can thrive. One of Eileen's most significant achievements has been leadership as Cathaoirleach of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community. In this role she brought not only important issues to the forefront but also gave a voice to those who have often been marginalised. Her advocacy has been instrumental in pushing for hate crime legislation, ensuring our laws reflect our commitment to equality and justice for all.

Eileen embodies the qualities of integrity, empathy and an unwavering commitment to service, which we seek in our leaders. She understands the challenges facing our communities and approaches them with passion and pragmatism. As Leas-Chathaoirleach, Eileen would bring a fresh perspective, a collaborative spirit and an unyielding commitment to the values we all hold dear. Might I add that Eileen is the first Traveller elected to the Seanad. She has made history. It would also make history if she were voted as Leas-Chathaoirleach today. I urge everybody to join me in supporting Senator Eileen Flynn for the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I am absolutely thrilled to second the nomination of Seanadóir Eileen Flynn. I have known Eileen for a number of years through her work in promoting equality. She has always spoken up for the underdog. Eileen has proven herself in fighting against the odds. She has proven herself to be a brave and courageous woman. She has come from a disadvantaged background and has experienced racism and discrimination all her life. She is standing in the Seanad, where she has made significant contributions. As someone who was recently elected and who was an outsider looking in, Eileen reflects balance in the House. It is important that there be balance with the Opposition with regard to the Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach roles. Eileen has raised issues here that had never been raised previously, including the high suicide rate among the Traveller community. It is very important that we have representation of everyone in the House. It is a highly revered House and it is extremely important that it is a true reflection of society. Politics should reflect society and it is very important that senior roles in the Seanad also reflect society.

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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Two motions are being discussed before the House but if one is taken, the likelihood is the other will not be taken.That structure is forced upon us by what happened in this House approximately six months ago. Members of this House, particularly the newer Members, should know that on St. Brigid's Day 2018, Leo Varadkar came in here and promised us a vast raft of reforms. Every single one of those reforms he abandoned and betrayed. None of them have happened at all, not even, as the Cathaoirleach will know, the one in relation to the European Union statutory instruments. It has collapsed, for the time being at any rate, due to the attitude taken by the Government and its legal adviser.

One of the things Leo Varadkar came into this House and said he wanted to bring about was that there would be a secret ballot among Members when the positions of Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach came to be decided, as is the case in Dáil Éireann. He promised that on that occasion. On foot of that, a number of us worked, with the assistance of the staff of the House, to craft an elaborate standing order in the English and Irish languages dealing with this issue and to put in place a system whereby every Member of this House, when it comes to choosing its officers, could choose freely and away from the party Whip and Government and caucus decisions whether she or he believed one or other candidate, or one of a number of candidates, was the correct person to be elected to those offices. I regret to say that standing order came before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of this House and was, without explanation, simply cast aside. Nobody even gave a reason it should not happen. It was simply swept aside at that meeting. A motion was put down by the Seanad Independent Group to amend Standing Orders before the last general election to bring it about in this House. Again, it was just voted down by the Government parties - the Green Party, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil - at the time without any real explanation.

At this stage, that being the case, we have two excellent candidates before us in Senators Byrne and Flynn. They are very good candidates with their own merits. Doubtless, there could have been others as well. We could, if the promises made to us had been kept, even in the tiniest degree, have had the right to make our private decision as to which of these people was the appropriate person to elect. We could have made a private, secret decision on their merits or demerits as we saw them individually, but that was taken away from us by a cynical process of abandoning every commitment to reform this House. We are, therefore, unlike Dáil Éireann, in a position where we have to decide on this matter subject to the party Whip via public vote and in a process that is wholly unacceptable. It does not happen in Westminster, it does not happen in Dáil Éireann and it was not going to happen here, only for the fact that Leo Varadkar broke his word to this House.

I just want to put all that on the record. For that reason, although I see the merits of both candidates in this election, for my part I am not going to participate in this election as a mark of my rejection of the cynicism that has led us to select our officers in this way, despite all the flowery commitments given on 1 February 2018 in respect of it being the last occasion on which the officers of this House were going to be elected in this way.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I agree wholeheartedly with what Senator McDowell has just said. I agree as well that we have two excellent candidates before us and I am convinced that either of them would discharge the duties of Leas-Chathaoirleach not just with diligence and fairness but, indeed, with aplomb. I have no doubt as to the result of this vote today. I am not going to withhold my support from Senator Byrne on her successful and happy day, as I anticipate it will be. That in no sense takes from the regard I have for Senator Flynn or my conviction that she would do an excellent job.I agree with Senator McDowell, however, that it is simply wrong that we are put into this position and that this is yet another horse trading situation - not that there is much trading going on because one side has two thirds of the vote in the House. However, the use and involvement of the party whip in a decision like this signals the sheer disrespect the Government has for the Seanad and its particular potential to be a House where different voices and points of view are heard.

It was not that long ago that the people of Ireland were asked to give a judgment on whether the Seanad was needed in our country and whether it should continue to exist. They believed and said it should exist by a narrow enough majority. The consensus at that time, shared by the Government of that time, was that it was not a clear bill of health given by the public to the Seanad but that the vote of the public indicated the desire that the Seanad would continue, but that it would be reformed; certainly in its functions but also, I believe, in the manner of its selection. We will all have to account to the voters repeatedly over the next few years and the question will be put as to whether the Seanad makes a difference, is worth the expense and is worth keeping, particularly as we face into uncertain times. We will perhaps face into tougher financial times in the future and that question may well be put on the table again.

If one believes in democracy, one should believe in the potential of the Seanad to do something vital and indispensable for the legislative process. It is essential that the Government starts to engage with that fact. I urge Government Senators in particular to take that message on board in a serious way and to see that the Seanad cannot be about just nodding through what the Government wants. Those Senators have to stand up for the Seanad and its potential. If they do not, it may very well disappear in the future.

While I am not going to withhold my support from Senator Byrne today as I know her election is a foregone conclusion, I do have a lot of sympathy with what Senator McDowell has said. Like him, I am disgusted with the cynicism, the lip service that is given to the need for parliamentary reform and the disgraceful inaction that follows on from that. I hope we can see some change to that over the next couple of years.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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I wish to very briefly register my dissatisfaction with the way the ballot is being conducted in public and to reiterate, notwithstanding the great worthiness of both candidates, that I will not be participating in the election today for the reasons outlined by Senator McDowell.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I too will take the same position as my colleagues and will not participate in today's election. I find it deeply regrettable that we find ourselves in this situation. We have two excellent candidates. I was not aware of Senator Flynn's emergence into the competition until this morning. I had committed to Senator Byrne, a very fine Senator and a wonderful parliamentarian; both of them excellent qualities. However, we have been thrown into this abyss because of what has happened.

I want to put something on the record. We talk here about parties; we recently went through a count for the Senate seats that we sit in, and nowhere on the ballot paper does it reflect party membership. Most of us are elected to this House because of the vocational expertise we bring to it. We are not elected to a geographical area of any sort. We do not represent any geographical area. We represent the vocational panels we have been elected to, the university panels we have been elected to, or we represent the Taoiseach, who has nominated 11 people. In 2013, before I was a Member of this House, I fought to save it when excellent people like Feargal Quinn, Michael McDowell and various others also were out there fighting to save it. There was an implicit promise that reform would come. Reform has not come. The public have been cheated.

It behoves all of us in this House to fight for the reform of the Seanad. It is an institution that should perform without party interference at any stage.We are not Dáil Members. Most of us who are here do not or should not want to be Members of the Dáil. We should want to be here in the reforming House we are in.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I share the concerns of my colleagues on the matter. We have two very fine candidates and I mean that sincerely. I was in this process for the job of Cathaoirleach after the previous election so I know how it plays out. We need to ask ourselves, particularly as we start afresh in this Senate: are we committed to its reform? Can we work collectively together, not against one another, to support this House and give confidence in this House?

I always say to people when I speak in here that I am not really speaking to those who are in here, because I am speaking to the people, who are looking in on Oireachtas television, who are here or who may watch an RTÉ news bulletin tonight, talking about what is happening. Why is it that in Dáil Éireann down the stairs from here, there was a democratic election process by secret ballot? It was because the Members took it in their hands and made a decision to amend their Standing Orders. We have a separate set of Standing Orders. We on this side of the House have fought collectively together to bring reform. We bought many proposals to have a secret ballot and we said this would come up time and time again. However, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Greens blocked that reform.

Are Government Members going to sit here again and nod their heads in surprise or will they stand up here today and give a commitment that they will go to their parliamentary party meetings tonight and say it is about time that we bought an element of democracy into the proceedings of the Upper House, this House that we are proud to be elected to? That is the challenge and that is what I am asking them to do. I am asking them to go to their parliamentary party meetings when they next take place and make a strong case of conviction that they believe we should have a secret ballot, as their counterparts, their colleagues, in Dáil Éireann are doing this very afternoon.

However, for some reason it is not possible. They do not permit it because of the party whip structure, so-called discipline or direction from the party leadership. I believe it is wrong and I believe we will have to learn a lesson. I would like to think that within days if not weeks we would commit to reforming this House because the people outside looking in are getting fed up.

I will finish on this. How can Government Members explain to the public outside listening in that while Dáil Éireann, this very afternoon, can have a secret ballot to elect its Leas-Cheann Comhairle, in this House to elect our Leas-Chathaoirleach, it is not permitted? That is not democracy and we need to address it, not nod our heads and go on in denial. We can make that change and we can make that decision. Let us take on that task.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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Many of my speeches begin with, "I remember my mother used to say..." and I do remember her saying, "Never take on a job you can't handle." As Frances Black said, before I ever came here I dedicated my whole life to human rights, equality, diversity and justice. Today I am standing up and I cannot even ask for Members' votes because the Seanad does not work that way. The question to be put is if they support Senator Maria Byrne as Leas-Chathaoirleach and Government Members will say "Yes". Where is the justice in that? Where is the vote in that? It is not very democratic.

I will still read out the speech I prepared. I am seeking Senators' vote today to become the Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad. Those of them who know me know my track record in speaking on diversity, inclusion and human rights. I put myself forward for this important role because I believe that this House represents the very best of us. The Seanad is the Chamber where important work can and does get done. We do not see the political divide much in this House when we are having our discussions on Bills and legislation, and we all do work together.As other Independent Senators said, even if people wanted me to be Leas-Chathaoirleach, it would not happen. I will continue, even though I am a little bit nervous.

We have an opportunity today to create another piece of history in this historic institution. I was proud to be the first member of the Traveller community to be nominated to the Seanad in 2020 by the Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin. I am proud to again put my head above the water, stand on my own two feet and work. My God, I have worked so hard to be here this time around and to get in here on my own merits. Where there is hope and courage, I am hoping to be the first ever member of the Traveller community and the youngest Member to be Leas-Chathaoirleach.

I urge Members to vote with their hearts and their heads and to vote for change today. I know the vote will not be done in private but Members have the power and today we can create another piece of change in this House, as we did when we elected Mary Robinson and other great women.

I wish Senator Maria Byrne every success in the role and I look forward to working with her. I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity because I was late putting my name forward. It is up to Members now. The ball is in their corner.

Nicole Ryan (Sinn Fein)
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I want to echo the sentiments of Senator McDowell and others in this House. For us, this is our first test of justice and fairness. We talk about this and we all work together but the system here right now is not just and fair. It is in favour of other people. I want to talk about this because I feel really strongly about it. For years and years, I have not seen someone who looks like me or who looks like Senator Flynn in the Seanad, making decisions and talking about issues that affect me and the people on the ground and who really get it and who get what it is like to live in a marginalised, disadvantaged community, to be a migrant, to be from a different country, to be at a disadvantage at all levels and to make one's way up here to try to make a change.

Of course all of us will work together and that is fair enough. That is what we are here to do. We are Senators and we are not technically bound by parties, even though we are all members of parties and we all know that. However, there has to be reform. This is not the way it should be. It is not just and it is not fair.

It is phenomenal that Senator Flynn is here. It is good to see people who represent regular people who are watching this. Everybody watching now can see themselves in certain Senators. That is what we are here to do. We are here to represent the normal, everyday people. I echo the sentiments of all the other Senators around the reform of this because things do need to change and right now the system is not fair at all.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I campaigned quite passionately in 2013 to retain the Seanad on the premise that it would be reformed. I agree with Senator McDowell's proposal and the others. It is a rarity that I would agree with Senator Mullen on a number of issues but I do agree with him today.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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That is news to me.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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This is testament to the Seanad that we can form commonality with people who potentially we would not always agree with and we can have respect for each other. We have two fine candidates for the selection. I said informally to Senator Byrne earlier that she is a fantastic candidate. I will be participating in this election and voting for my colleague, Senator Flynn. She is an outstanding Senator and my colleague, Senator Nessa Cosgrove, spoke eloquently about her.The Seanad was set up originally to ensure that we had representation of minority voices. That is important. As somebody from the LGBTQI+ community myself, it is important. It is amazing that 45% of Members are women. We are getting there vis-à-visgender but we have so much more work to do.

I urge people to consider this matter. The way the Seanad is set up, it is inevitable that the Government will have a majority in this House. There should be a secret ballot, and it is something we need to fight for. I urge people to consider that when they are voting, abstaining or whatever it is they choose to do today.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. I will be brief. I wish the two candidates well. My comments are not personal to anyone at all. They are more a reflection of what my colleague from Sinn Féin said about the first test of fairness and justice. It is also the first test of working collaboratively because working collaboratively does not only happen with the scraps at the bottom. It also happens in how we discuss who has the power in a room. Working collaboratively means that, when discussions are had about positions like Chairmanships and Leas-Chathaoirleach and about those who get to make decisions at the top, it is meant to be done in collaboration. We cannot only say that we want to work together when all of the decisions around power have already been made. It is not just about fairness and justice, but also a reflection on how and when we work together. Unless we work together from the top through all of the positions and from the bottom back up again, then we will never be working together, given that the power will always remain concentrated and orchestrated in a particular direction. I challenge people to think about how, when we say we want to work in collaboration, it means at all levels of decision making and how we do things. Whether that is in secret or out loud, we should be willing to share power when the opportunity is there.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I was not going to speak but I am moved to do so. I am very proud to be supporting Senator Flynn. She is an outstanding candidate. We celebrated during the previous Oireachtas term the centenary of the Seanad. One of the themes was minority voices, major changes, as the Seanad has a record of bringing forward minority and different perspectives. I do not mean in a geographical way, but in a way that cuts across and captures the different experiences and perspectives throughout Ireland as well as major changes. When the Seanad asserts its power and capacity, it has a huge record of making significant change, shifting the dialogue, changing laws and having an impact on people's lives.

We are into the next hundred years now. Like others, I campaigned for retention and reform of the Seanad. I am not going to go into the many different parts of reform. I acknowledge the Cathaoirleach, who tried to bring reforms forward in his period. There has been a betrayal of the message of reform since 2013. People voted to keep the Seanad because they valued it. Bear in mind that most of those who voted in the referendum to retain the Seanad did not have a vote in the Seanad. They voted for something because they saw its value and importance and wanted to be a part of it. The message needs to come across strongly from all of us as Senators that we value the Seanad, that we see it as something different and as adding something important to the political space, and that we recognise that it works a little bit differently and that it has something to bring. Electing Senator Flynn as Leas-Chathaoirleach would have been a wonderful opportunity - it is still a wonderful opportunity - to put a marker down in terms of the idea of minority voices and major change. Regardless of the outcome of what happens today, we should decide collectively to ensure that we use the powers the Seanad has, the responsibility it has and the fact that we all come with very different mandates.Returning Senators will know, and new Senators may learn, that sometimes within their parliamentary parties they will have to really assert that the Seanad has a different perspective on an issue and that Ministers cannot be guaranteed a rubber stamp when they come in here. Sometimes the debate across the House has to be able to lead to change. I would say that whatever the outcome, and this is the same message I gave on the election of the Cathaoirleach, the Leas-Chathaoirleach when elected serves the Seanad and does not serve any political party. I know that both candidates understand that. Both Senators Byrne and Flynn know that the Leas-Chathaoirleach does not serve a political party or the Government. The Cathaoirleach and the Leas-Chathaoirleach are there to facilitate the Seanad in its fullest sense being as powerful, impactful and relevant to the people of Ireland as possible and a space where genuine change will happen. I hope we can look back, in four or five years' time, at the what the 27th Seanad achieved. Whatever the outcome, I hope that whoever takes on the role of Leas-Chathaoirleach will take that on board and reflect that in their service.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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As there are no other Senators offering, I will put the questions in the order in which the motions were moved. Is the motion proposing Senator Maria Byrne agreed to?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate Senator Byrne. I ask her to come up and read the pledge at the Leader's desk. I compliment her on her long and distinguished service to the Seanad, to Limerick - she has raised issues relating to it many times in the Chamber - and across the country. We look forward to working with her, all of us here together, as our Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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You can forget to ring the bell sometimes.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I do solemnly declare that I will duly and faithfully, and to the best of my knowledge and ability, execute the office of Leas-Chathaoirleach of Seanad Éireann without fear or favour, apply the rules as laid down by this House in an impartial and fair manner, maintain order and uphold the rights and privileges of Members in accordance with the Constitution and the Standing Orders of Seanad Éireann.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We will put Senator Byrne to work straight away. I congratulate her.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. If it is okay, I will say a few words of thanks before we move on with the proceedings. I thank the Tánaiste and my colleagues for placing their faith in me. I also thank my colleagues who voted for me here today, as well as those who did not. I have always had a fair work ethic and tried to work with people right across each and every grouping. I give a commitment that my door will always be open. I look forward to working with all Senators in a fair and collegial manner.

I thank the Irish Grain and Feed Association, as it was my nominating body. I also thank TDs, councillors and Senators right across the political spectrum who voted for me and got me where I am today.

I congratulate Senator Flynn on putting her name forward here today. I call her a friend. We have often had conversations. If she had been successful, she would be a fantastic Leas-Chathaoirleach. I did not come here today and take anything for granted. I have always had that philosophy. One always goes out and looks for votes and support.

I acknowledge the father of the House, Senator Wilson. He has always been very encouraging of me. I also acknowledge my proposer, Senator Kyne, the Leader, and my seconder, Senator O'Reilly, a former Leas-Chathaoirleach himself. I thank them for their very kind words. I did not realise it was me they were speaking about when they proposed me.

I look forward to working with the Cathaoirleach and with Martin and his team at the top table, all those in the Seanad Office, and the ushers and staff within the House. My job is to make sure that everybody is treated fairly and they all receive the same treatment, and that everybody has the right to express themselves as well.

My own family is watching at home online: my mother Helen, my aunt and uncle, my brothers, Stephen and Robert, and also my extended family. I would not be here without their help and support. I am very privileged that I am the third female to serve in the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach. I follow in the footsteps of Evelyn Owens, a Labour Party trade unionist from Dublin who served from 1973 to 1977 and also in the footsteps of Tras Honan, a fellow Munster person from Tipperary who served from 1983 to 1987. She also came from a business background.

I served as Mayor of Limerick in 2010. I was the fourth woman to serve in that office in Limerick in 814 years. Not many people are honoured to serve in the position that I have been elected to fill today. I look forward to working with all Members in the future - over the next five years. I also follow in the footsteps of a neighbour of mine - Thomas Westropp Bennett, a former Senator, Leas-Chathaoirleach and Cathaoirleach. His daughter-in-law, Catherine, who is looking in today, is also a neighbour of mine. They were from Limerick. I look forward to serving everybody right across the House. I thank all for the privilege and honour they have bestowed on me today.