Seanad debates
Tuesday, 24 September 2024
An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business
1:00 pm
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I welcome everyone back on this the first Order of Business of the autumn term. It is to be hoped it is not our last term. I call on the Leader to outline the Order of Business.
Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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Welcome back to everybody. The Order of Business is No. 1, Planning and Development Bill 2023 - Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 3.15 p.m. and to adjourn at 9 p.m., if not previously concluded. The sitting shall be suspended from 6 p.m. to 6.45 p.m.
Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome everybody back. I think this is going to be an interesting term, if not an exciting one as well. I extend my sincere sympathies to the family of Robert Deegan, who was killed in battle last Thursday in Ukraine. Robert lived in Athy but he spent his youth in Newbridge, living in The Oaks where he went to the local Patrician Secondary School. I knew Robert. He was involved in the campaign to get a skate park in Newbridge. This was a project I championed and I met many young people around the town regarding it. Robert was a very fine young man. We eventually got the skate park, due in no small measure to Robert and his friends. Robert was a former member of the Army Rangers and was the youngest ever to qualify for this elite unit. The military background is very strong in his family. Both his brother and his dad were in the Army. Our thoughts and prayers are with Robert's parents, Rachel and John, and with his wider family and friends.
Last week, many of us had the opportunity to go to the National Ploughing Championships. We were blessed with incredible weather this year. I have to give a shout-out to all the organisers, particularly Anna May McHugh. It was such a wonderful microcosm of Irish rural life in particular. I met many young people and students from Dublin who came down and really enjoyed it. We extend our gratitude to Anna May and the team for a terrific experience.
If the summer in Kildare was defined by anything for me, it was by, sadly, the illegal encampments in the Curragh. I spoke about them prior to the recess but things have only got worse. I received a lot of photographs showing the waste that was spread all around the Curragh and the damage done to local sporting facilities.The day before yesterday I saw a photograph of a beautiful small dog whose leg was very badly damaged by glass and rubbish on the Curragh. It had to be brought to the vet and have surgery immediately. It is an ongoing issue and needs to be dealt with as a priority.
The last issue I will mention is South Kildare Schools Smartphone Alliance. I had the pleasure of attending the launch last week. Some 15 schools have come together in south Kildare and parents have adopted a voluntary code on their children not having smartphones, which thereby supports other parents who may feel under peer pressure. It is a wonderful project. I wish it well and I hope others will join.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir. Just to assist her on the issue regarding the Curragh, it has been selected as a Commencement matter tomorrow and she will be able to raise it further again.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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In welcoming colleagues back I must strike a sombre note, a really tragic note, by saying that over the summer things have gravely deteriorated in Gaza to the extent we have 40 dead that we know of and 120 as an indirect consequence of the lack of supplies and hospitalisation. I have this from NGOs. Some 120 are collaterally deceased, making a total of 160. We have so many injuries and the place is razed to the ground. It is a horror, it is genocide and it is shocking. There is no other word for it. There have been so many efforts to achieve a ceasefire and it is clear there is no serious intent there. It is shocking. It has escalated, to some extent, to the West Bank and to Lebanon over the past number of days, with 580 deaths yesterday. It is a horror.
I ask the Leader for a very urgent debate on it. I cannot think of any greater humanitarian crisis. There is Sudan and Ukraine, which are shocking crises too, but let us take this. I request a debate on it with the Tánaiste to talk about where Europe is at now and where Ireland is at. Clear, targeted sanctions against Israel are necessary. Cessation of the supply of munitions is necessary. This has to escalate on an international stage as a crisis to be dealt with. It would seem there is no real serious intent to have peace and that has to be shocking state of affairs that needs addressing. I ask the Leader that we have this debate. During the debate the Tánaiste could perhaps set out exactly what Europe is doing and what we can possibly input to that. In a general sense both the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach have been unambiguous on this issue, but we need a set of targeted responses now. It has to end. It is shocking, getting worse and looks like developing into a full-scale regional war.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I agree with the previous Senator on Lebanon. I have family living in Beirut. What a beautiful place it is. Our thoughts must be with the whole region and on the conflicts there.
Let us be mindful of the passing of two great former councillors who served in local government: Brian Bermingham of Cork and Rainsford Hendy, who happens to be related to me. They were Fine Gael councillors. Both were distinguished councillors and I wanted to acknowledge that fact and say we are thinking of their families at this sad time for them.
I call for a debate on the residential zoned land tax, which is a very controversial tax. We all know we need to activate more land for housing. We also know the Government has, or aspires to have, a policy on land use.Over the summer, there have been conflicting views from the Minister for Finance, the Minister for local government and the Minister for agriculture on the residential zoned land tax. We cannot have a situation where there is a land tax on lands in active agricultural use, be it agriculture in its purest form, horticulture or forestry. We need clarity on this issue. Farmers who farm land that is zoned for agriculture must be encouraged. One of our key objectives is to increase our production of agricultural produce, in particular crops. I am calling for a debate on the residential tax. Farmers want to be on the right side of Revenue and it will be Revenue and no one else collecting this tax. There have been mixed messages from the three Government parties about what they want to do. I call for a frank and honest discussion about where this tax is going.
I draw Members’ attention to Parliamentary Question No. 388 of 18 September, submitted for written reply by Deputy Connolly. That reply, which was delivered to me today, raises a number of questions about this matter. I saw accompanying correspondence, according to which the Ministers for agriculture and Finance were not in a position to answer. The question asked about the quantum of land within the scope of the residential property tax. No one seems to know the quantum. This relates to another issue, in that no one seems to know how much land in the country is mapped and zoned for agriculture. The common response is that it is a matter for local government. If we want land use strategies and policies, though, then we need to get the data and facts. Until such time as we do, we should not proceed with the residential zoned tax on agricultural land. Therefore, I call for the tax to be deferred until 2026 when we will have all of the facts about these matters to hand.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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In recent days, we have seen the appalling extension of the bloodthirst of the Israeli Government. Approximately 41,500 children, women and men are dead in Gaza and the death toll in Lebanon is rising as we speak. The apparent crusade to wipe out Hezbollah and Hamas is a genocide. We have used that word many times, yet the world is still looking on. The UN General Assembly is taking place this week. The UN and the EU were both established as peace projects. I am struck by the number of people who raise this situation on the doorsteps in our communities and ask what we are doing. What will we tell our children in ten years’ time about when we did to stop this genocide? Even now, the Israeli state is subjecting its own citizens to a special state of affairs in terms of banning gatherings, although that is a minor matter compared with the slaughter inflicted. Our country needs to stand tall and take a leadership role, particularly in the EU now that we have a new Commissioner. We need to prevail upon the President of the European Commission about how, as a peace project, the EU needs to do much more. We cannot allow this to continue.
I looked in detail at the Government’s legislative agenda last week. It was with great disappointment that I noted the Government had effectively ignored the bogus self-employment problem that has existed in this country for many years. A landmark Supreme Court judgment in October 2023 effectively deemed Domino's Pizza drivers as employees. It was the Revenue Commissioners who took that case. On foot of the judgment, we called for the Government to legislate to make who should be an employee clear to workers. People should be employees by default but be able to opt out in genuine cases of self-employment. During the summer, Mr. Matt McGranaghan – a musician and campaigner on bogus self-employment rights – went to great lengths to prove his employee status.He was subjected to disgraceful treatment by his employer and very serious and questionable conduct by the scope section of the Department of Social Protection. I normally have great things to say about the scope section but, unfortunately, his claim to that section was appealed. There is now a very serious issue of the Government turning a blind eye to bogus self-employment in this country. There is a Supreme Court action and a WRC case. We need to see action by this Government.
Frances Black (Independent)
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In the six years since I first tabled the occupied territories Bill, as we all know, the situation has rapidly deteriorated. While the world is focused on the horrific genocidal war in Gaza, we are also seeing one of the biggest land grabs in decades across the West Bank, where more homes are being destroyed, families displaced, settlements built and people beaten and killed on a daily basis. We have to ask how we can repeatedly condemn this as illegal but continue to trade in the goods produced. It is clear hypocrisy and it must stop. As we all saw in June, the highest court in the world effectively said that all countries, including Ireland, are obliged not to trade with the illegal settlements that Israel has built on stolen Palestinian land. It is not some optional extra. There is no doubt about it that our legal obligations are clear. Palestinians, academics, NGOs and human rights organisation have been saying this for years. Over the past six years, we have set out clearly, with detailed input from some of the world's top lawyers, that the Bill would not breach EU law. We have received new legal opinion from two eminent lawyers that states the former Attorney General was wrong on this issue. The ICJ has now made it clear that we were right and that we can do this. In fact, it would be illegal for Ireland not to pass the occupied territories Bill.
It is so brilliant to see the huge public demand for the occupied territories Bill. At every march and event, people who are horrified at the genocide taking place in Gaza are coming out in their thousands and demanding that the Government takes action. The calls to pass the occupied territories Bill are getting louder. I am sure every single Member is aware of the south Kerry IPSC whose members are walking all the way to the Dáil to hand in a petition with 40,000 signatures. They will hand that petition in at 4.30 p.m. today outside the Dáil. It is inspiring and incredible. The Cathaoirleach might like to know that last night, I hosted a meeting on the occupied territories Bill in Cork city to a packed-out room. More chairs had to be brought into the ballroom of the Metropole Hotel where it was held. The people are demanding that Ireland takes a stronger stance. We need to introduce sanctions and enact the occupied territories Bill and we need to do it now. People want to see Ireland take a stronger lead on issues of international law, human rights and justice. The Government has an obligation to do the same.
I follow my colleagues in asking the Tánaiste to come to the House to give us an update on what action the Government will take going forward. When will we see the Attorney General's advice? That is very important. We would like to know about and have an update on the Attorney General's advice. We also definitely need to have a debate on the occupied territories Bill and what is happening with it.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Senator on her meeting in Cork last night. My good friend and colleague, Councillor Jack White, was there. He speaks very highly of her, as the Senator knows.
I welcome the guests of our former Cathaoirleach and friend and colleague, Senator Denis O'Donovan, from La Rochelle, France. They are all very welcome to Leinster House. A cousin of Senator O'Donovan is with them, as is a friend of former Senator Peter Callanan, who was a good friend to many of us in the House. They are very welcome to Leinster House today.
Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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On this first day back, I will raise the issues of housing and health, as I have on each occasion we have come back. I raise the issue of housing because the housing crisis continues to worsen. The figures and the record of the Government are particularly stark. When it took office, there was 231 homeless adults and 62 homeless children in Limerick, including 41 families. Four years later, the Government has now doubled the number of homeless adults in Limerick to 442. It has tripled the number of homeless children to 191 and almost tripled the number of homeless families to 110. Those are the cold facts. We see it every day in our clinics as the housing crisis gets worse and worse and children are left to fester in hotels and hostels.These are the results of deliberate decisions by this Government, specifically the disastrous decision to lift the ban on evictions. However, it gets worse because over the course of this Government, the cost of renting in Limerick has gone up by over €10,000. That is the reality and again, that was a political choice. The Government could have frozen rents; it chose not to. Now people are being put to the pins of their collars trying to save each month just to make those rents so they can make extortionate profits, particularly for corporate vulture landlords who pay no tax whatsoever in this country. It is a record of absolute failure, and I am asking for an urgent debate on that issue.
The second issue - the Leader will not be surprised that I raise it again - is the horrendous circumstance of University Hospital Limerick, UHL, which has been all over the news for last number of days. Again, the record is stark. The record number of people on trolleys last year, which was 21,409, is going to be exceeded this year. We already have more than 17,000 human beings on trolleys. That does not include weekends. We have a Minister who actually denies those figures and who has been in this Chamber to deny those figures. He is in denial about the extent of the crisis in UHL. I am glad to say there will be a debate in the Dáil on this issue later this evening. The reality is that UHL remains in crisis, and we are heading into another winter without a sufficient plan. In each of the last two winters the system effectively collapsed, and we are looking at that again. We only learned on Sunday that the new 96-bed unit, which has been promised for quarter 1 throughout the lifetime of this Government, will are not open in quarter 1 or quarter 2. It will not open until after quarter 2 according to Mr. Bernard Gloster. It will be another winter of discontent. We are 200 bed shorts in UHL. The Government has had four years to address this crisis. It has simply failed to do so, and I am calling for an urgent debate.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Like the previous speaker, I would like to have a debate arranged in this House with the Minister for Health to discuss the ongoing issues at University Hospital Limerick, with particular focus on the deaths of a number of people in recent times. A report was issued recently by the former Chief Justice. It is a harrowing read into the death of Aoife Johnston. It must be harrowing for her family, friends and community. The troubling thing that came out of the report is that there is still the potential for this to happen. There were failures and abject failures across the piece. There are some learnings. There has been some significant investment in the hospital in the last four years since the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, came to the brief.
A debate here might be helpful insofar as we can to try to take the politics out of it because this really is about people who have lost their lives unnecessarily through the failures of others. It is always easy to lay the blame at one Minister when there are 110,000,115,000 or 120,000 people working in the service. Yes, there has to be political accountability too for the continued lack of investment in that hospital and in the region, but it would be remiss of us not to try to find a united way forward to see if we can get to the nub of what actually happened. Are there cultural issues? Are there management issues? Are there interpersonal issues? Are there problems between the various different silos that exist in the hospital? It cannot just be about one individual, one person or one discipline. I hope we can have that debate as soon as possible. We owe it to the memory of Aoife Johnston and the others who have been failed by the system. The difficulty we have is that there has been more than a fair share of failures. There will always be an element of misadventure in medicine, and I think people understand and get that, but when they see a consistent trend then there is a need to look at all aspects and facets of the operation of the hospital. I would appreciate if the Leader could arrange that at the earliest possible opportunity.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I very much support the call for an urgent debate on UHL, not just regarding the past but also what is going to happen this winter. I agree that it is not all at the foot of one person, but one person does have a significant role to play in this.I am very disappointed given that I put in a request to the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, on 10 September, which was two weeks ago today, to have a briefing for all Oireachtas Members in the mid-west and that, while I received an acknowledgement to the e-mail, as of half an hour ago, no meeting has been organised. I requested that the meeting would happen before the Dáil returned, which was a couple days after that. The acknowledgement came but the meeting did not happen. I want to know from the Minister and from Sandra Broderick, the regional executive officer, what is being done for the next couple of months, when we will see a surge. It is an inevitability because it is winter. We saw what happened over the summer, with the highest numbers of any hospital in the country, yet again breaking records.
I am also very disappointed with the timeline and HIQA report. I spoke about this when it was announced that the Minister was asking HIQA to carry out an examination of the provision of emergency care in the mid-west. I wanted to see a short, sharp review. We all know what the issues are. It took three or four months for the terms of reference to be written and now we are told the report will not be available until next summer, which is after the general election and after the negotiation of the next programme for Government. What is the point of that? It is ridiculous. That needs to be looked at urgently. I have called for it and, subsequent to me calling for it, the members of Clare County Council passed a unanimous motion that the timeline needed to be brought back. If the Minister is coming to the House, I want to know what is happening in UHL and I want to know why it has taken a year to come back with a review on urgent care. The Minister has a responsibility to urgently organise a briefing for the mid-west Oireachtas Members. It is not good enough that he has not done it so far after being asked to do it on 10 September.
Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I call for a debate regarding the content of the SPHE curriculum, an issue which has recently come to light regarding the portrayal of Irish families in the SPHE schoolbook, ironically titled All Different, All Equal, in which a deeply offensive and stereotypical caricature of what it means to be an Irish family is portrayed in the most condescending, baffling and unrealistic way. The Irish family in this book is not only outdated but also harmful. It suggests that if you love the GAA, run a family business, play Irish music, holiday in Ireland and support Irish film-making, you are somehow inferior, insular and narrow minded. This is a gross misrepresentation of the rich and diverse cultural heritage that we as a nation are proud of. Such depictions are not just laughable, they are damaging. They perpetuate harmful stereotypes and send a message to our young people that being authentically Irish is something to be ashamed of. This is unacceptable in any context but especially in our education system where we strive to promote inclusivity, respect and understanding. Such rhetoric is an import to this country from countries where school curricula attempt to reconcile their colonial pasts in which the native population of a land suffered oppression.
It is crucial that any historical or social education on Ireland's colonial past rightly acknowledges our place in the colonial history as the colonised, not the colonisers. The GAA, the Irish language and Irish music are products of the Gaelic revival. The revival was our assertion that our way of life will not be forgotten or erased in the face of an empire, colonisation or globalisation. We must remember that diversity is not just about embracing different cultures but also about respecting and valuing our own. I call on the Minister for Education to come to this Chamber and make statements on the mechanism through which schoolbooks are approved.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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On behalf of all of us I welcome to the Public Gallery today the new members of the OWL programme. You are all very welcome to Leinster House. I hope you find your time here enjoyable, educational and beneficial. We look forward to engaging with you and working with you to ensure that together we make the parliamentary community a better place.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Members will have received a statement today from the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, which represents 34 local radio stations across the country. These radio stations, as Members are well aware, give a fantastic service to communities, especially in rural Ireland. However, they are not being treated fairly under the recent announcement regarding State funding. We all know that RTÉ has been given an open cheque book, while the print media have also benefited greatly from the recent VAT changes. There is absolutely zero public funding provided for local radio core news and current affairs public service broadcasting. RTÉ is guaranteed an excess of €720 million this coming year. As practising politicians, we are all aware of the invaluable service that local radio gives to all our local communities.
The schemes outlined by the Minister are of no real practical benefit to a service such as Radio Kerry or Clare FM. There is an additionality clause where stations that are already scheduling a strong quota of public service broadcasting cannot avail or benefit from the schemes. Local news, county politics, community promotion and court reporting, etc., all have a large cohort of listeners on local radio and they provide a vital service.
IBI is more than willing to make these schemes work and have engaged with the Department over the past 18 months to no avail. As it stands, the consensus in local broadcasting is that they will not be able to work the schemes at all. If possible and in the remaining time between here and budget day, I ask the Leader to request the Minister for Finance, Deputy Chambers, take a second look at that.
Before I sit down, I warmly welcome the proposal by Senator O'Reilly that we have a discussion here with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, on the appalling situation in the Middle East. We approach the horrible date of 7 October, a day that will live forever in the minds of decent people, where Hamas inflicted such savage brutality on innocent young men and women. We could, hopefully, focus this debate a little bit more on Hamas and Hezbollah, which seem to get off scot-free in these Houses.
Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Forget the 40,000 women and children-----
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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We will always have, and excuse me Cathaoirleach-----
Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Senator O'Sullivan's comments are a disgrace.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Every time I open my mouth, Senator Gavan has tried to silence me.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I want to tell Senator Gavan that he will not silence me.
Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Does anyone in Fianna Fáil have anything to say about his comments?
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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There is a lot of bullying going on.
Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Senator O'Sullivan is being silent on genocide.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Gavan was silent before he went for Europe. He got his answer.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator O'Sullivan to resume his seat.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach must protect me.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I am. The Senator's time is up and he is over time.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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It is only because I am being interrupted.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is well over his time. Allow me, as the impartial Chair who protects all Members, to state that the Senator's time was up at a time when he was speaking. I was calling him to conclude. I will protect all Members and I ask all Members to direct their comments through the Chair and not to be going back and forth. Members are entitled to have their views. There is no bullying by anybody that I see in terms of the Chamber.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of Order, Cathaoirleach-----
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I wish to say that almost every time I have brought up my personal opinion on the atrocities of Hamas and Hezbollah, I have been interfered with in my speech from one of the pro-Hamas pro-Hezbollah brigade in this Chamber. That is not acceptable to me.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I will happily sit down and speak to the Senator about that matter and ensure it does not happen again.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is entitled to his view, as are all Members of the House.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise the issue of where we are currently in our tuberculosis allocation. This is a really significant issue in my part of the world. In the past six months, the tuberculosis reactor rate has increased by 22%. The current levels of tuberculosis in Cork in a bovine herd have gone through the roof.This is causing terrible stress and hardship for the families. As I was walking to the Chamber, I received a phone call from a neighbour who a TB test done on his farm today. He lost ten cows. I met another man in Timoleague who had 52 reactors found during the week. The numbers are frightening.
A few points need to be made. We are experiencing an outbreak of TB across the country that we cannot control. It will get a great deal worse because if there is TB in the bovine herd going into housing, God knows how it will react and spread through the herd when the herd is housed. We will see the levels of TB increase dramatically next spring, which will have a huge financial impact on family farms and the co-operative societies. It will cause unbelievable mental trauma for farmers to have their stock taken away to be slaughtered. Members of the veterinary community coming into the yards of farmers they know very well may have to put down a large percentage of their herds as reactors. That is another trauma in the system.
The TB eradication programme, which started in the mid-1950s, has been a failure. Despite increased levels of funding, it has not dealt with the issue. We will never eradicate TB from Ireland and to call it a TB eradication scheme loses the focus. At best, it is a TB control scheme aimed at trying to control the problem. We need a debate in the Chamber with the Minister for agriculture because we need to ensure staff are provided to deal with the issue. We have eight vacancies on the wildlife side, which means we do not have the personnel on the ground to deal with it. I have farmers who are under financial, physical and mental pressure because of what has happened to their herds in the past few months.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I send my congratulations and well wishes to the Irish Homeless Street Leagues teams who are playing in the Homeless World Cup in Seoul, South Korea. As athletes, they do not get enough attention when they go off around the world each year to play in the Homeless World Cup. The team changes every year and includes people experiencing homelessness, addiction, social isolation and many different issues. Their starting point in athletics is being able to engage in the sport but there is a complex set of needs wrapped around that with regard to their recovery and future. Every year when I watch the teams go off, I feel we are not paying them enough attention. I would love if the sports stations and sections and the 6 o'clock news reported on how the Irish team was getting on abroad in the world cup. The men have had five wins in five games and are top of their group. They will now go into the next stage. The women have won three out of seven games and we will know later if they will go into the next stage. It is a huge achievement for people in a very competitive sport. A huge amount of work goes into it.
I acknowledge and thank the Irish ambassador to South Korea. We had a number of conversations with her earlier in the year and she has organised a welcome event in the embassy, which has been great and has supported the teams over there. We should show a little more interest and give a little more recognition and credit to the team. Perhaps there is something the Seanad can do. Could we issue some sort of official invitation to the teams when they return to Ireland, be that a lunch or another event, to recognise that these team members will now have a cap for Ireland? It is really amazing. They should be very proud and should know how much that is valued by us and their families and communities as they act as role models going forward.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Ruane for her work with that wonderful group of people. We wish them every success. We will be happy to talk to the Senator, the Ceann Comhairle and the Oireachtas Commission about doing something here.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I raise with the Leader the ongoing issue of long waiting times for driving tests. I base this on an article in today's The Journal under the headline, "Crackdown on long-held provisional licenses delayed over fears of longer test waiting lists".It refers to a damning statement and briefing from officials at the Department of Transport. They are saying openly that they have put on the long finger anything that may be introduced to clamp down on people who are driving on provisional licences for months, years and decades. The officials' fear is that if they clamp down on those people, the extra applications for a driving licence will push out further the waiting times for a driving test. We hear stories of people who wait for years for a driving test. Last year, the official waiting time was five months. We hear that the waiting time has now been reduced to 15 weeks. There is a service level agreement to the effect that the waiting time should be ten weeks.
In an environment where we have so many road tragedies, Department officials are massaging figures by ignoring the major problem of people driving on provisional licences. Those officials are saying they are going to ignore the problem in the short term until they get a handle on the waiting lists for a driving test. We are ignoring the fact that people have, in some cases, driven for decades on provisional licences because addressing the issue would cause a bigger problem for us if those people were to apply for a test, which would push out the waiting times. I was shocked that any official would make such an admission and that the massaging of figures is going on in an environment whereby we have unacceptable numbers of fatalities on our roads. We need to get everybody on a full driving licence.
I know this may not be an appropriate time to be looking for Ministers to come to the Chamber. Our chances of getting Ministers to come to the House in the short term may be limited and it may not happen. However, on the basis of this article alone, we need the Minister for Transport to come to the House to discuss the article and this important and serious issue.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Before I call Senator Currie, I welcome to the Public Gallery Mr. Jeremy Wilmshurst and Ms Ellen O'Donoghue from the British Embassy. They are very welcome and I thank them for being here. I thank, in particular, Mr. Wilmshurst for all his work.
I also welcome to Leinster House Ms Emma Walsh who has commenced interning, and perhaps also studying, with Senator Garret Ahearn. Emma is a politics student in DCU and is from Grange, County Tipperary. She is very welcome.
Emer Currie (Fine Gael)
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I raise the unmitigated disaster that has been the change in Irish Rail timetables for Dublin. There has been a lot of focus on the northern routes and not so much on the western routes. We on those routes have been very affected. Yesterday, I put up a post on social media stating that I wanted to raise the issue in the Seanad. I got 93 responses in 24 hours. We know that if one gets five responses or five emails on an issue, it is big. I received 93 responses in 24 hours.
The issue is affecting our train stations, including those at Hansfield, Clonsilla, Coolmine, Castleknock, Ashtown and Pelletstown. What seems to be happening is that trains, both inbound and outbound, are now terminating in Connolly Station. Those trains are not going through to Pearse Station. There are delays of eight to ten minutes. There is overcrowding. One of the people who got in contact with me described the timetable for Docklands Station as a work of fiction. The information on the displays is not accurate. People are waiting and if the correct information is not displayed, they can miss connections. The arrangements around the platforms in Connolly Station appear chaotic. People are not being asked to change onto a train at the nearest platform but are instead being sent all over the place. There are bottlenecks in the station. There are trains of three or four carriages at peak times, which is obviously contributing to the overcrowding. I ask the Leader to write to the Joint Committee on Transport to echo the calls for representatives of Irish Rail to come before the committee to go through these issues and to find a solution. The timetables were changed on 26 August. There were attempts to improve the situation on 16 September but it has not improved. The question is: if it is not broken, why fix it?
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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Following on from the Senator's remarks about social media, yesterday I put up a post that got hundreds of responses from people in the country around the Minister, Deputy McEntee, announcing that she will not be supporting hate crime legislation. That is absolutely devastating news for people in my community. the Traveller community, people with disabilities and people of colour, etc. We have seen the rise of the far right in this country. Even the Garda does not have proper legislation to be able to deal with it. Hate crime legislation would deal with that. I call on the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and the Taoiseach to reverse the decision to not have hate crime legislation that will protect the most vulnerable people within society. It absolutely makes Fine Gael looks so weak. All along, its Members supported the hate crime legislation. I listened to the Taoiseach say numerous times on radio shows that there would be hate crime legislation to protect the most vulnerable people. Then they just do a big U-turn. Again, this affects people on the margins of society who have more chance of being attacked walking down the street.
Today, we did work with Women for Election. How can we support women from minority groups standing for election if we are not going to support hate crime legislation that protects all of us? It is absolutely appalling. I call on the Leader to write to the Minister for Justice so we can debate this and it is not only her decision. I am the only person from an ethnic minority group in these Houses and I do not feel heard. People who are black do not feel heard.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I understand. It is just your time is up. I do not disagree with you.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I would appreciate if the Leader could get back to me with this request.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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A total of 57 tonnes of weapons have been transported through Irish airspace on its way to Israel without clearance from the State. What is the Government doing to challenge Israel and its collaborators regarding this illegal use of sovereign airspace? Irish airspace is being used to transfer weapons of war to commit genocide in Gaza and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. If it were not for The Ditch, we would not even know about it. The Ditch has laid bare the truth that successive Governments have failed to protect Irish neutrality and that the State has potentially facilitated the transport of weapons to be used in genocide. Instead of dealing with it and addressing the controversy of 57 tonnes of weapons flying over our skies, Government parties have been more than happy to talk about a controversial bike shed out the back of Leinster House. They are more than happy to talk about that controversy because there is someone else to blame. The Government should show some backbone and meaningfully challenge Israel and its collaborators on their illegal use of Irish airspace. Concerns that Ireland is being used to transit weapons to illegal wars have long been dismissed by the Government but we know now that these weapons are destined for Israel, which is engaged in genocide and ethnic cleansing. Domestic law has been ignored by those transporting weapons through our sovereign airspace and we would not even know about it were it not for The Ditch. The question now is: what will the Government do about it? It has to show some backbone. We must enact the occupied territories Bill and Sinn Féin's Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023. Will the Leader, as the Government representative in this House, state clearly what actions the Government intends to take over this illegal use of our sovereign airspace?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Inheritance tax has been well flagged in the past number of weeks as something that might be considered in the budget. I really hope it will be because the threshold at the moment is quite low regarding what people have to pay capital gains tax on if family members leave them more than €335,000. Even if we make changes to the threshold and increase it to something like €400,000, we still have a problem with the inheritance tax that people have to pay. The problem with it is that normally in these situations people realise they have to pay it quite suddenly after someone dies. A colleague of mine on Laois County Council, Councillor Barry Walsh, meets people on a regular basis in his job who have been put in the position to inherit a house that is perhaps worth €400,000 and find out very quickly they have to pay in excess of €20,000 in inheritance tax.If you inherit a house in July or August, the inheritance tax has to be paid by 31 October, which leaves very little time for people to have that sum of money available. What happens is people sell the property even though they do not actually want to sell it and want to keep it. Councillor Walsh's suggestion, which is a very good idea, is that there should be an opportunity for people in those positions to make staged payments rather than paying in a lump sum. A lot of the people who sell these properties do not want to sell them. There is an emotional attachment to a family home. They might have a son or daughter who may want to use that family home in a number of years, or perhaps they want to rent it out to a family member, but they cannot do it because they have to pay such a high bill at the very start. As well as changing the threshold, we should look at giving people the opportunity to retain that home by bringing in staged payments.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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The Leader will acknowledge the level of supports that have been put in place for businesses over successive budgets. Much of that was absolutely warranted to ensure we protected jobs during Covid and in the context of the increases in the cost of energy over successive winters, which had a huge impact on the viability of businesses. There is still a demand from businesses to look at the VAT rate for their sectors. I appreciate that the full cost of the reduction to 9% for the hospitality, food and catering sectors would be in the order of €764 million. If it were confined just to food and catering, it would be €545 million. I appreciate it is a substantial level of funding but I would ask that the Leader engage with the Minister for Finance. I will engage with Ministers within my own parliamentary party on some changes to the VAT rate for the food, catering and hospitality sectors. Government has rightly protected staff through sick pay and additional bank holidays over recent years, which has put added costs onto businesses. It is the right thing to do but, at the same time, we have to acknowledge that there is a threat to those same businesses in the form of the cost of keeping their doors open. It is important that a support package is put in place. It has been acknowledged that the increased cost of business grant provided substantial funding last year. There is certainly a need, whether it be through VAT, rates or some other means, to ensure businesses are kept viable and jobs are protected over the coming year.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I will regretfully disagree with my friend and colleague, Senator Flynn, on her reaction to the Government's announcement that it is pulling in its horns, so to speak, on the hate speech dimension of the Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill. It needs to be understood that every reasonable person in our society is against hateful communications. The issue and the problem that always was there in the legislation is that it was using criminal law, the extreme end of social sanction, to prosecute, or put in fear of prosecution, people who may want to communicate ideas in a robust way, legitimate ideas that do not endanger anybody but might challenge other ideas. It is an essential feature of our democracy that there would be such freedom of expression, that we are willing and ready to hear ideas that we dislike or even that offend us. The complete vagueness of that legislation, the failure to define hatred, and the weird definition of gender that was imported into the legislation and which could put us right in the middle of the culture wars were the problems with the legislation. It shows the very politicised approach being taken by the Government that all it is doing is taking away that section of the Bill without even the guarantee that it is taking it away forever. If those on the Government side really believed such measures were necessary for the common good, they would be coming back with reasoned amendments, which I for one would be very willing to consider. Unless that weird definition of gender is gone from the remaining hate crimes remnant of this Bill, it remains highly problematic. Unless hatred is specifically defined so people can know what is criminal and what is not, or what will escalate an offence to being a more serious one and what will not, we will not have good quality criminal law.We must be vigilant on that.
People talk about the importation of culture wars into this country. I regret that there is ever any kind of culture war but those who talk about that should remember it was the importation of weird and unscientific ideas into policy-making in this country that has led to such controversies on social media. Hopefully, we will see a change in that, not just in the run-up to a general election but going forward.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I remind all Members that it is three minutes and two minutes. From tomorrow, there will be adherence to the time limit by all Members. The proportionality of Members this afternoon has been on the side of being over time rather than under time.
Before the Leader replies to the Order of Business, I join Senator Boyhan in paying tribute to the two former councillors, Brian Bermingham and Rainsford Hendy, who gave distinguished service to Cork City Council and Kildare County Council, respectively. They were wonderful public servants. They were of their time and of their people, and they served the people with distinction. May they rest in peace.
Glaoim ar an gCeannaire chun freagra a thabhairt ar an tOrd Gnó.
Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all Members who contributed to the Order of Business on our first day back. I extend a warm welcome to our good friends from the British Embassy, Jeremy Wilmshurst and his colleague, Ellen O'Donoghue Oddy. They are most welcome to the Visitors Gallery.
Senator Fiona O'Loughlin expressed her deepest sympathies, which I echo on behalf of the House, to the family and community of Robert Deegan, who lost his life fighting on the front line in Ukraine. He was a former Army Ranger in the Irish Defence Forces and came from a very strong military background and a military family. Our thoughts and prayers are with his family and community at this very difficult time.
The Senator also acknowledged the fantastic event that was the National Ploughing Championships last week, which was a great success. She also drew attention, as she had done before the summer recess, to the illegal encampments at the Curragh and the damage that has been done. She offered her best wishes to the South Kildare Schools Smartphone Alliance, in which 15 schools and many parents have joined up to ban smartphone use by younger children.
Senator Joe O'Reilly was the first to speak about the ongoing situation in Gaza and the atrocities being committed by the Israeli Government, predominantly against women, children and innocent civilians, as well as the escalating tensions in the West Bank and Lebanon. Of course, our thoughts are also with the members of the Irish Defence Forces serving with UNIFIL in Lebanon and their families and communities here, who are very concerned. We know the Department of Defence, the Tánaiste and the Government are continually reviewing the situation on the ground.
Senator Victor Boyhan expressed sympathy to the families of former councillors Bermingham and Hendy. I echo the comments of the Cathaoirleach in regard to both public representatives, who gave great service to their communities in their time on Cork City Council and Kildare County Council, respectively.
The Senator requested a debate on the residential zoned land tax, a matter that is being considered by the Government. We have heard comments from the Minister for Finance, Deputy Chambers, the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach, who have all acknowledged that actively farmed land needs to be dealt with separately and was never intended to be subject to the residential zoned land tax. This is with the Government and is being actively worked on and considered. I have no doubt a resolution will be forthcoming. The Senator made the point that there is no full account nationally of what land is zoned in a particular way. The point has been made by the Government to the Senator that it is a matter for local government and the local authorities.
Senator Marie Sherlock spoke about the situation in Gaza and Lebanon. I echo her remarks. We are all watching in horror at what is happening there and how quickly things have escalated in the region, particularly between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon.
I acknowledge the Senator’s remarks in regard to bogus self-employment. I do not think it is a case of the Government not wanting to deal with it. We have had quite a packed legislative agenda and the Senator will see from our schedule for this week that we will be busy dealing with other matters. It is certainly on the Government agenda to deal with. I take on board the Senator's comments in regard to the case that was dealt with in the courts.
Senator Frances Black asked for an update on the Occupied Territories Bill. As the Senator is aware in regard to the ICJ ruling, the Attorney General is preparing advice for the Government and the EU has also sought legal advice on that matter. It is being actively looked at and considered and, hopefully, we will have information on that shortly.
Senator Paul Gavan raised issues in regard to homelessness. I do not think any one party has a monopoly on wanting to end homelessness.Nobody is happy with the homelessness numbers. The Government's plan on housing has seen billions of euro put into funding and while numbers are going in the right direction, it is a big ship to turn. There has been an undersupply for many years. However, the numbers of commencements, planning improvements and homes being delivered are all going in the right direction. It is worth acknowledging that each week, many people are getting their homes and the Government has made delivering housing the top priority. The work will continue.
Senator Gavan raised issues around University Hospital Limerick, as did Senators Dooley and Conway. I will request a debate with the Minister for Health on that particular issue. That concern has been well flagged in this Chamber. Hardly a week goes by in which University Hospital Limerick is not raised by at least one Member. That is across the House by all parties. There has been significant investment in the hospital. The issues there have been going on for a number of years and there also are serious challenges with management. While there are a lot of issues to be resolved there, to lay everything at the door of the Minister for Health is not a fair assessment. The Minister has been very hands-on when dealing with University Hospital Limerick and it has received significant funding from this Government. The management on site has a job of work to do to get the house in order. I take on board Senator Dooley’s remarks regarding Aoife Johnston and the report that came out. It highlights serious concerns and issues with management in the hospital that need to be dealt with. If we are serious about dealing with the issues in the hospital, all the problems associated with why there are challenges there need to be addressed in their entirety.
Senator Keogan raised issues around the SPHE programme and the depiction of an Irish family. The Senator laid out the characteristics of what is considered typically Irish, if I may put it that way, in terms of backing the GAA and enjoying Irish music. I imagine we are all saying "tick, tick, tick” in terms of liking those things. I do not see any difficulty with them; we should never be ashamed of our heritage or culture and the things which make us who we are.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Those people who do must be thick, thick, thick.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Leader, without interruption please.
Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps that is the case. They are fine things to be proud of. We are all proud of our country. Perhaps there are things that are outdated and need to be updated. They may not be top of the list in terms of dealing with the challenges within a sector and therefore they may not have been spotted heretofore.
Senator Currie raised an issue on which I am not fully up to speed, namely, the changes to the train timetables in Dublin. I take on board the Senator’s comments regarding the level of feedback she has received in her local constituency because of those changes and the challenges they present. I suggest to the Senator that a Commencement matter may be appropriate to deal with that and to get further information.
Senator Warfield raised the matter of the story in The Ditch on the transportation of weapons through Irish airspace. A number of Ministers have commented on this and, of course, the Minister for Transport has direct responsibility for this matter. An investigation is taking place to see what happened and the Tánaiste has been very clear that it is not permitted. Permissions need to be sought to use Irish airspace and where they are not sought, that will be looked at. Airlines will not be given permission to fly through Irish airspace and breach the rules that are set in place. It is unfair to say the Government facilitated this, as clearly it was not known if it did happen. That is being looked at. We all share in that concern, I am concerned myself that it may have happened. This must be properly investigated and reported back in a transparent way.
Senator Flynn spoke about hate crime legislation. The hate crime legislation has not been dropped. The Minister has been very clear that it will be progressed. The Minister has indicated that the hate speech element of the Bill lacks consensus. For that reason she is withdrawing it and will deal with it at a later stage. To correct the record, the Minister has given a commitment to advance the hate crime element of the Bill. I take on board the Senator’s point about being part of an ethnic group and the importance of this legislation to her but it is to protect everybody. It is to protect all citizens. Nobody has monopoly-----
Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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If I could finish - nobody has a monopoly on that particular legislation. There were concerns around the hate speech element of that legislation.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a point of order?
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I do. To correct the record, it was hate speech. It is not okay to call somebody names-----
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator made that contribution already. I thank her.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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The Minister of Justice has a responsibility to look after everybody.
Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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Would the Senator like a response?
Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt when the Senator was speaking. There have been concerns raised about the hate speech element of the Bill by many Members of the House, across all parties.The Minister has stated she does not have a consensus to move this element of the Bill and will deal with it at a later stage but she does want to advance the hate crime element. We will have a debate on it, presumably when the Department requests me to schedule the legislation and I look forward to that debate.
I put concerns on the floor of the House about the hate speech element, as outlined by Senator Mullen, in terms of definitions and things that need to be tightened up. This is our role as Senators. The Bill went through the Dáil without a whisper and was supported by almost every Member of Dáil Éireann. It was not until it came to this House that we did our job and scrutinised the legislation. Credit to the Seanad for doing our job and looking at the legislation across all parties and none. When we come back to debating it, we will have an opportunity to raise these concerns again. I commend the Minister on listening to Members and facilitating engagement with her and the Department on the legislation, which allows us to do our job. The Bill has not concluded yet but, as I have said, the Minister has given a commitment that she wishes to advance the hate crime element of the Bill at the earliest opportunity and of course I will work with the Department to schedule it.
Senator Kyne spoke about the ongoing pressures on businesses and the cost of business. He was correct in stating the Government has supported business with the increased cost of doing business grant and there also have been energy credits. There is recognition by the Government that there is still a lot of pressure, particularly on small businesses and hospitality businesses. We are all getting this throughout the country, with cafés, restaurants and pubs finding it particularly difficult. I know this will be top of the agenda for the Minister for Finance.
I take on board Senator Kyne's comments on the VAT rate. The Minister is minded to look in particular at the cost base of doing business and trying to tackle things in this regard also. I take on board Senator Kyne's comments on whether we can look at rates or other ways to support business because there is a significant cost associated with any particular measure the Minister takes. While funding in the State is in good shape, as are the economy and the Exchequer, there are a lot of demands on the Government in terms of funding various projects and various requests. We will leave it with the Minister for Finance and we look forward to the budget on 1 October and statements thereafter in the House on public expenditure and finance.
I have dealt with the contribution of Senator Mullen, who was the last Member to speak. I disagree with him on one point. He said if the Government were minded and thought what it was doing was worthwhile or good, and I am paraphrasing slightly, it would table amendments. In fairness to the Minister, she has said she will come back to it later. It is her intention to address that section of the Bill at a later point.