Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I move:

"That Seanad Éireann: approves the establishment of a Citizens’ Assembly, to be known as the ‘Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use’, to consider the legislative, policy and operational changes the State could make to significantly reduce the harmful impacts of illicit drugs on individuals, families, communities and wider society, and to bring forward recommendations in this regard; the Assembly shall consider,inter alia:

- the drivers, prevalence, attitudes and trends in relation to drugs use in Irish society;

- the harmful impacts of drugs use on individuals, families, communities and wider society; - best practice in promoting and supporting rehabilitation and recovery from drug addiction;

- the lived experience of young people and adults affected by drugs use, as well as their families and communities;

- international, European Union, national and local perspectives on drugs use;

- the efficacy of current strategic, policy and operational responses to drugs use;

- international best practice and practical case studies in relation to reducing supply, demand and harm, and increasing resilience, health and well-being; and

- the opportunities and challenges, in an Irish context, of reforming legislation, strategy, policy and operational responses to drugs use, taking into consideration the implications for the health, criminal justice and education systems; and

notes that the Citizens’ Assembly shall:

- consist of 100 members in total, including 99 randomly-selected members of the general public, and an independent Chairperson to be nominated by the Taoiseach;

- preclude from membership any individual who is either:

(i) under 18 years of age;

(ii) not normally resident in the State;

(iii) a politician currently serving in either House of the Oireachtas, in local government or in the European Parliament;

(iv) a lobbyist as provided for under the Regulation of Lobbying Act 2015; or

(v) a person unwilling to adhere to public health measures as prescribed by Government and public health authorities from time to time;

- hold its inaugural meeting in April 2023 and conclude its work and submit a report to the Oireachtas by the end of 2023;

- have flexibility to determine a revised timeline for completion of its work in the event of extraordinary circumstances delaying or disrupting its work;

- submit a report and recommendation(s) on the matters before it to the Houses of the Oireachtas. On receipt, the Houses of the Oireachtas shall refer the report to a Committee of both Houses for consideration; this Committee will, in turn, bring its conclusions to the Houses of the Oireachtas for debate.

Furthermore, the Government shall, on consideration of the report from the Citizens’ Assembly, provide in the Houses of the Oireachtas a response to each recommendation of the Assembly, setting out a timeframe for implementing those recommendations which it accepts;

- have a Secretary and secretariat staff assigned to support the effective governance and operation of Assembly meetings, to support the Chairperson and members in their roles, and to support the drafting of the final report;

- agree its own rules of procedure and work programme to enable the effective conduct of its business in as economical and efficient a manner as possible;

- operate in an open and transparent manner, including by live streaming public proceedings;

- determine all issues by a majority of the votes of members present and voting, other than the Chairperson, who will have a casting vote in the case of an equality of votes; - develop innovative programming to feature individuals and communities directly affected by drugs-related issues, and those working in front-line service delivery;

- engage subject matter experts to inform its deliberations, including as invited speakers or as members of an Expert Advisory Group

- engage with stakeholders and the general public, including through a public consultation process, and by inviting select speakers to participate in meetings of the Assembly;

- make payment of an honorarium to the Chairperson at a per diem rate to be sanctioned by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform; and

- make payment to the members of the Citizens’ Assembly and members of the Expert Advisory Group of a nominal honorarium to recognise their civic service.”

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, to speak and welcome her to the Chamber.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to have the opportunity to outline to Members of Seanad Éireann the objective of and basis for the motion to establish a citizens' assembly on drugs use. Over the past decade, citizens' assemblies have become established as an important part of the Irish democratic process. Previous assemblies have made recommendations on a variety of matters, including marriage equality, the eighth amendment of the Constitution, climate change, gender equality and, most recently, a directly elected mayor for Dublin and biodiversity loss. The views expressed by citizens' assemblies have consistently proven to be influential in driving changes to policy, legislation and the Constitution.

Today across the length and breadth of Ireland, individuals, families and communities are grappling with the harmful impact of illicit drug use. Directly or indirectly, illicit drug use affects all of us. No matter our gender, age or socioeconomic background or whether we live in rural or urban Ireland, no one is immune from the risks or harm of illicit drug use. In every community across the country, we see the damage drug addiction inflicts on people’s lives. We see the needless and often preventable loss of life through overdose and disease transmission. We see the insidious affect of drug-related violence and intimidation on communities. I believe there is a strong consensus in the Oireachtas and among the general public that the State and society generally need to respond far more effectively to the problems caused by illicit drug use.We need to reduce harm, supply and demand and increase resilience, health and well-being in society. The Programme for Government, Our Shared Future, commits to the establishment of four citizens' assemblies on biodiversity loss, the type of directly elected mayor and local government structures best suited for Dublin, the future of education and drugs use. The first two of these, the Dublin Citizens' Assembly and the Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss, have now concluded their work. The Dublin Citizens' Assembly submitted its final report and recommendations to the Oireachtas in December 2022. The Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss held its final meeting on 21 January last. Its report and recommendations will be submitted to the Oireachtas in the coming weeks.

At its meeting last week, the Government agreed to establish a citizens' assembly on drugs use.As Minister of State with responsibility for public health, well-being and the national drugs strategy, I am pleased to bring forward in this House the motion approving the establishment of the citizens' assembly on drugs use. The terms of reference for the assembly have been designed so that they are sufficiently well defined to provide a clear focus for the assembly. At the same time, they are not so prescriptive as to inhibit the scope of the assembly to define its work programme, as it deems appropriate.

In setting the terms of reference, it is important that we pay heed to the experience and advice of previous citizens' assemblies. On more than one occasion, those who have been involved in leading citizens' assemblies have stated that the terms of reference should not be expressed in an overly precise way. Every citizens' assembly needs discretion and flexibility to define and organise its work programme as it deems appropriate. The Oireachtas must of course set the direction and the broad parameters but then it must step back and allow the citizens' assembly the freedom and autonomy it needs to do its work in an independent manner. We need to trust the process and trust the members. I believe the proposed terms of reference for the citizens' assembly on drugs use as set out in the motion before the House provide the necessary scope and autonomy for the assembly to determine its work programme, to consider all issues it deems relevant to drug use in Ireland and to deliver carefully considered recommendations to the Oireachtas. The terms of reference state that the citizens' assembly shall consider and make recommendations in respect of changes the State might make to significantly reduce the harmful impacts of drugs use on individuals, families, communities and wider society. In its considerations, the assembly will be asked to take into account the implications for the health, justice and education systems.

As part of its work, the assembly will focus on the lived experience of individuals, families and communities impacted by drug use. This is very important. The voices of those most affected by drugs must be heard if the assembly is to deliver on its mandate. Alongside this, the members will be asked to consider a range of perspectives on drug use, from a national point of view and also from experiences across Europe and internationally. It will also consider the efficacy of current responses to drug use and best practice in promoting and supporting rehabilitation and recovery from drug addiction.

Ireland is widely regarded as a world leader in deliberative democracy and the citizens' assemblies have become an important part of the Irish democratic process. The recommendations of previous citizens' assemblies have influenced significant changes in how we as a State live our lives, including through constitutional change, legislative change and changes in the design and implementation of policy. It is clear to me that a citizens' assembly on drugs use can make an invaluable contribution to inform the Oireachtas and the Government in our response to the challenging issue of drug use.

The citizens' assembly can also make a valuable contribution to a wider societal debate on drugs policy. There are differing viewpoints within the Oireachtas, among front-line service providers and among the general public about the most appropriate way to respond to the challenges posed by illicit drug use. The Government has set out its approach in the national drugs strategy which emphasises the importance of a health-led approach. In recent years, several Oireachtas committees have considered issues around drug use and I expect that Oireachtas Members will follow with interest the progress of the citizens' assembly. The assembly will engage comprehensively with professional bodies, stakeholders, representative groups, the general public and national and international experts. The citizens' assembly should and must operate entirely independently of Government and the Oireachtas. It is important therefore, that the assembly is afforded the time and space to undertake its deliberations carefully and comprehensively. There is of course a reporting relationship between the citizens' assembly and the Oireachtas. The motion before the House proposes that the assembly should report, in the first instance, to the Houses of the Oireachtas which, on receipt of the final report of the assembly, will refer the report to the relevant Oireachtas committee for consideration.

In addition, it is proposed that the Government will provide, in the Houses of the Oireachtas, a response to the recommendations of the assembly and an indication of a proposed course of action, where appropriate. The Dáil will debate the report of the assembly and the Government's response. The citizens' assembly on drugs use will include an independent chairperson and 99 members of the general public, selected using a random selection process. Building on the successful experience last year, eligibility for membership will extend beyond those enrolled on the electoral register, to include all residents in the State. This opens the citizens' assembly up to non-Irish residents and other people who, for whatever reason, are not enrolled on the electoral register. Recruitment will be done by a postal campaign with 20,000 randomly selected households invited to participate in the assembly. Members will be selected on the basis of gender, age and geographic location to ensure that the citizens' assembly is as representative as possible of wider Irish society. We have learned much from the experience of previous assemblies and following the use of this process last year I am confident this approach will continue to optimise the representativeness of the citizens' assembly. The timeline is ambitious but achievable. The inaugural meeting will take place in April, with the assembly scheduled to conclude its work and submit its report by the end of the year. I wish the assembly every success.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate her on her appointment to what I consider a very important role.

We all know that drugs have caused huge problems in every town, village and street in this country. When I was in college it used to be, to a large extent, a problem in urban areas but sadly now it is a problem throughout the entire country. In the last Oireachtas and the one prior to that I was a member of the Oireachtas joint committee on justice. At that time, the drugs issue was considered a justice issue. A very comprehensive body of work was done by the previous Oireachtas committee, led by Deputy David Stanton. As part of that engagement, we spoke to many stakeholders, including victims of drug-related crime, people with addiction problems and people who had recovered from addiction problems. We travelled to Portugal to see the approach there which was health-led.

The key recommendation of the body of work was that there should be a national discussion on how we can engage with this issue and come up with solutions. Essentially, it should really be more a health-based approach than a justice-based one, particularly for first offenders. It is shocking to think that somebody caught in possession of cannabis while in college would not be able to go to the United States a few years later because he or she had a conviction for possession of soft drugs.

Society is now engaging in a discussion that is more health-based than justice-based. However, we need a combination of both. We see the issues around organised crime. They are all drug- and money-related. I note the recent comments by the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris, about the fact that young and not-so-young professionals using recreational drugs at weekends are fuelling organised crime. People probably do not want to hear that but it is the truth. Every time an illegal substance like that is bought it is funding organised crime. There are communities throughout this country that have been completely torn apart as a result of organised crime. The national discussion recommended by the justice committee a number of years ago is now happening and it is happening in a structured way. It is happening with the creation of a citizens' assembly.None of us here should try to pre-empt the recommendations of the citizens' assembly. Naturally, we all have our own views and opinions but this is a structured way of engaging with a sample of the citizens of this country who will sit down, go through the pros and cons and make recommendations. My sincere hope is that the recommendations will be engaged with by the Government, taken seriously. and acted upon. We just have to wait. We must allow the citizens to do their work and have their engagement. I wish them well. When the recommendations are published, we can have a real debate and engagement on how we can go about improving the lives of victims and people in communities. Hopefully we will get on top of what is gripping a whole generation of our young people. That work is critical. I have no doubt that the citizens' assembly, under its chairperson, will do a very good job.

It is my view, and has been my view for some time, that this should have been this Government's first citizens' assembly. For me, it is the most important one, but better late than not happening at all. Again, I commend the Minister of State and wish her well in what is an extremely important job. I also wish the citizens' assembly well in its engagements.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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First, I welcome the Minister of State to the House for this really important debate.

I move amendment No. 1:

In the first paragraph under “notes that” to delete “99 randomly-selected members of the general public,” and substitute “95 randomly-selected members of the general public, 4 elected members of local government,”.

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I second the amendment.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will speak to the amendment. I fully acknowledge the importance of the citizens' assembly and the Minister of State's commitment, along with that of the Government, to drive it through. I have no difficulty with that. I have no difficulty with the terms of reference, which are broad and comprehensive. All of that is good and is there for everyone to see.

I was a county councillor for many years and am a strong advocate for local democracy and local government. I am a strong advocate for more powers for local authorities. When this came across my desk last week, I immediately set about engaging with councillors on it. In fact, I engaged not just with some councillors but with all 994 of them. I sent out the same emails, letters and correspondence to them all and within two or three hours I had received nearly 60 emails in response. None of them were negative and they were cross-party and non-party. They raised the issue of the significant involvement of councillors with the community policing forums, local drugs task forces and so on. All of the responses were very positive. They were not responses of the "not in my back yard" variety. I would not tolerate that or advocate for it. These are people who recognise and have seen first-hand the scourge of drugs that has destroyed communities and families. Indeed, the problem has come right into many of our family homes. There is no family home that has not been touched by some form of drug abuse and the antisocial issues that surround it.

I support all of the work in this area but am not going to go into great detail on it now. The Minister of State crystallised a thought for me as she spoke. She said it was important that this citizens' assembly is allowed to do its work free from the Oireachtas. I fully agree with that. Where do myself and the Minister of State differ? The difference for me is that sitting county councillors are on the ground working in communities and they want to participate in this process. There is an established precedent for it in the Dublin Citizens' Assembly which was about options around a directly elected mayor for Dublin and was limited to that issue. It is right and respectful that we engage with the two local councillor associations: the Local Authorities Members Association, LAMA, and the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG. They have a valid, important and significant role to play in articulating the concerns of their members and could do so in a very positive way. They represent local communities too. They have a mandate to represent them and work closely within other social structures and with other agencies locally. They are members of the Minister of State's party, other political parties and none and I get the overwhelming sense that they want to be involved.

The simple proposal in my amendment is that we would permit four members of local authorities to participate. I am not talking about taking people out of the 100 members of the assembly. It could be in addition to them. I know something of the statutory background to this and understand that it is not beyond the Taoiseach or anyone else to decide to include additional people. I ask the Minister of State to correct me in her response if I am wrong in regard to the statutory basis for this. I ask the Minister of State, on behalf of councillors who are members of her party, other parties and none, if we can facilitate their participation in this assembly. It is really important that we do so. I am making a strong case for doing so and am asking the Minister of State to consider it. I am sure she understands the rationale for my request, which is not unreasonable.

I say all of this in the context of the erosion of the involvement of councillors in educational bodies, university panels and harbour companies, including the one in the Minister of State's constituency of Galway West. Through legislation passed over the past seven to ten years, we have eroded many of the functions, powers and responsibilities of elected members and they are not happy. The most recent example relates to university panels and the proposal to take councillors off them. This is just another layer of that.

The proposal before us today specifically excludes Oireachtas Members in the Dáil and Seanad. The Minister of State made a strong argument in favour of that principle and I fully support it. However, the proposal also excludes the elected members of local authorities and it is on their behalf that I make my case. What I am asking of this House is both reasonable and doable. Let us unite on this. Most of the Members of this House are elected by sitting councillors. We are receptive to and supportive of the idea of allowing them to participate. There may be some constraints but I do not believe that is the case. I would like to think we could unite in here and demonstrate that unity. It is not about one-upmanship but about us working together, representing this collective block of elected people and allowing them to take four seats at the assembly, either in addition to the 100 members or as part of the 100 members. I have no hard and fast rule in that regard and do not want to get into the micro-management of the thing. I suggest that LAMA and the AILG, the two representative bodies, could nominate two councillors each. All I want is to see them taking part. I want to articulate on behalf of councillors because that is what they have asked for. I am happy to share the correspondence with the Minister of State because it is convincing. I ask her to support us, and hopefully we can support one another, to allow members of our city and county councils to participate in this process.

Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I second the amendment in the name of Senator Boyhan.

I want to say a couple of things about the general concept of a citizens' assembly. The issues here are not unique to Ireland and are not misunderstood. There are fundamental issues of policy to be addressed. For instance, the state of California has legalised the use of cannabis. A lot of people take the view that it is pointless to suppress the use of cannabis by the use of the criminal law. It is suggested that it simply creates revenue streams for organised crime. My view is that adults should not be penalised for the use of cannabis in any circumstance. If they want to do that, just as if they want to drink or smoke tobacco, that is their option. From a liberal perspective I have to say that if people want to do themselves harm, and cannabis of varying strengths can be extremely harmful, that is generally their business as far as I am concerned. A recent article in The Economistmagazine suggested that the same thinking should apply to cocaine. It was argued that the creation of huge demand for cocaine, combined with its criminalisation, has the effect of creating an income stream for organised crime.

Today we read of the barbaric shooting of a PSNI detective chief inspector in Omagh. The hate lying behind that is something I just do not understand. If one looks at what is happening on our streets and in our suburbs, one sees that people are being shot in the head regularly at the behest of those involved in organised crime. We have to ask ourselves if we can contain it.Is there a successful strategy available to us? Finally, it is all very well to say that adults should be able to do what they want. However, the fundamental issue for this citizens' assembly will be whether, if 18-year-olds are allowed access to drugs, it will be possible to prevent 12-year-olds to 15-year-olds having access to those drugs too. That is a fundamental issue for which liberal principles will not provide a solution. I wish the citizens' assembly well, but some of these fundamental issues are obvious to us in these Houses. They will be no more difficult to resolve as a result of having an assembly than they are at the moment. We all have our views, but the views of 100 citizens are not going to significantly change the national debate and attitudes to the problems I have raised.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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It is positive that we are having this debate. The citizens' assembly will hopefully be established as soon as possible and this very important issue will be discussed. It has been on the cards in these Houses for a number of years and I am glad the programme for Government prioritised it. Halfway through the Government term, it is about time to make progress on it. Citizens' assemblies play an important role in informing discussion. We have seen that in plenty of citizens' assemblies on very difficult issues that we may have thought we would never have been able to overcome as a society. We have used this important vehicle to do that. It has been recognised internationally as a really good model. I have spoken with parliamentarians across the world who have inquired about our citizens' assembly model. They had very good and interesting questions and obviously did a lot of research and thinking about it. We are to be commended on putting this forward. The model of having 100 members of society from across all ages and places in the country is a really good one. It provides a temperature as to where Ireland is. The debate they have informs the wider debate and educates us. While we are all very much aware of the harm that illicit drug use does in our communities, we might not be as on top of the facts of it and how we overcome it. I recently listened to a podcast called "Drugs and Ireland - the Citizens Assembly", which was put together and produced my colleague Deputy McAuliffe and Councillor Briege McOscar. It had some excellent contributors. People like Senator Ruane, Fr. Peter McVerry and Philly McMahon spoke about the actual impact on families and communities, and how they see the way forward. It definitely informed my position on it. Before that, I would have thought I knew a lot about it. I certainly know a lot more after listening to that podcast. We could all educate ourselves a little more about the issues involved. Let us hear from the health experts. If we are going to go down the road of a health-led approach, which is best in my opinion, we must ensure that people are afforded the resources and treatment centres to come off drugs. In Dublin we have very few beds if someone wants to come off any sort of narcotic. People taking heroin are often put on another drug, methadone, rather than receiving proper treatment. They are not given the support to come off it, nor any other supports around family, social care, or anything like that. We are really failing people. Consequently, there cannot be a health-led approach. People who are often from vulnerable communities are self-medicating because they are living in intergenerational poverty and face abuse, trauma, lack of adequate housing or lack of education, job opportunities or training development. They are self-medicating. There is of course a difference between decriminalising and legalising. If we are proposing to decriminalise, we are just removing that extra barrier for people who might be caught with a small amount of drugs, then they must be given the support to properly come off drugs. We cannot just decriminalise them and send them on their merry way. I think that would be even worse. Even if people enter the prison system they are at least afforded the resources to come off drugs, so that might even be a better approach than decriminalising and not giving them any extra medical or health supports. As a society, we have to listen and learn over the next couple of months. It is really important. However, the narrative should not be put out there that we are saying it is okay to take drugs and there is nothing harmful. Of course drugs are harmful. Alcohol is harmful. Cigarettes are harmful. People should avoid them, but they do not. People take drugs, they drink alcohol and they smoke. If people do get into difficulties, they need to be informed and supported to lead a healthier lifestyle. The media is going to play an important role over the next couple of months. It is regrettable that we have seen some irresponsible journalism in recent days. Journalists have been contacting Deputies and Senators to find out if they have taken drugs in the past. That has nothing to do with this debate. It is just forming clickbait. It has nothing to do with this debate or how we are going to move this situation forward. Journalists play a very important role in our democracy and active citizenship, but if we are reducing things down to whether this Minister or that Deputy took drugs years ago, so what? It is of absolutely no relevance. We should be discussing what models are used internationally. What parts of the United States have done this? What problems have they had and how have they overcome them? That is what we should be focusing on and that is responsible journalism, not just producing clickbait. We have to be very hard on the drug cartels causing untold misery to vulnerable communities and vulnerable people. We have seen very young people across Dublin and outside sucked into the drugs trade and playing very senior roles in it. It is abusive. Eleven-year-olds, 12-year-olds and 13-year-olds are being dragged in as drug mules, getting involved in violence and dying. They are getting involved in various acts of violence themselves. We have to be very hard on these drug cartels. The violence and intimidation has to stop. The Minister of State has said we need to reduce supply and demand. I agree with her 100%. I look forward to this motion passing today, and the citizens' assembly being established. Let us get on with it because what we are doing at the moment is clearly not working.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House. It is great that we are having a conversation about this. I wore my sometimes-dubbed "wacky tabacky" jumper for the occasion. I get lots of comments online about it sometimes. Our view and response to substance use disorders and drug use reveal a lot more about our culture to date, which is slightly changing, than it does about people using these substances. I can feel that shift and I hope we see that shift in how we treat people using drugs. That goes from people using drugs recreationally all the way to people in the depths of addiction, possibly the second, third or fourth generation down, and communities that have been devastated by this. How we have treated all of those people says a lot more about us than it does about them. We are ready and we are already having a conversation in society around our perception of drug use. People are becoming aware of people who are using drugs, particularly those in addiction. As I said, there can often be multiple generations of families in addiction, who are an incredibly marginalised group. Over the past while, a light has been shone on that group. People, regular joes, who will, I hope, be in the citizens' assembly, are becoming more aware of that part of society who, up to now, have been pushed away because we have criminalised them, sent them to the outskirts of our cities or away, put them in prisons and silenced the conversation around them. People are ready and want to have that conversation. We already know how drug abuse is linked to poverty and inequality in our society. We cannot talk about drug abuse or drug misuse without looking at some of the inadequate policies that may have led people into poverty and how we often have continued to fail them a second time through the lack of support for their responses to these failed policies. A previous speaker pointed out how there is nowhere near enough beds or spaces for people when they decide they want to take that step to leave heavy drug use.

Overgeneralisations are sometimes part of the demonisation process there has been up until now and they are often used in defending biases, marginalisation and social exclusion. When this conversation happens, we cannot help those biases coming forward. It is going to be an important part of the conversation, not just for citizens of the citizens' assembly but for those of us in both Houses, journalists, pundits and people talking about this, to challenge their biases before they go forth and declare their thoughts. As a society, we need to examine those biases. We all recall pandemics and endemics and what happened in our cities in the 1980s and 1990s. They are a rooted part of how a lot of people respond to this. There is going to be a bit of a challenge for people to step away from that and the demonisation that has been in play for quite some time. That also comes around to our partial understanding of addiction. Again, that conversation and people's perception is changing. Our empathy towards these individuals is also changing. Up to now, there was huge dehumaniisation of people. We still dehumanise people who are criminals and have been convicted of whatever, not just of drug use, possession or selling. There has been a huge dehumanisation of people who have been through the prison system and the criminal justice system. That is a conversation we need to have. This will all tinker around the edges of the work of the citizens' assembly.

It is not a secret that I am a fan of decriminalisation. I have spoken about this for a long time and about the Portuguese model and the positive impacts that has had. I think in 1999, Portugal had 369 overdose deaths and that dropped to 30 in 2016. While 30 is still too many, those are lives that have been saved through a health-led approach underpinned or supported by the legal system. While we have conversations all the time and I speak to gardaí and we speak to people and they say of course they want a health-led approach and a harm-reduction approach, ultimately our laws do not fully facilitate that yet. I hope following there will be a meaningful conversation about how our laws can have a meaningful harm reduction, safety and person-led approach.

I wish to touch briefly on the reporting around this, which has been mentioned. Already we see the titillating headlines, the, "Look, someone did a drug when they were younger" or "X Minister tried cannabis when they were in college and they went green and they never did it again", or other such stories. They bring nothing to this conversation. They are simply ridiculous headlines. They only serve to further draw attention, particularly to the massive societal divide we have. Few people who have drug-related criminal convictions walk through the corridors of Leinster House whereas others who may have engaged at some point in drug use, recreational or otherwise, have had the good fortune to have not been caught. That is the difference; they have not been caught and do not have a criminal record. They can, therefore, answer questions posed by a journalist or someone else knowing that by answering it, they are not going to end up with a criminal conviction and can continue to walk around the corridors of Leinster House. When those questions are posed, they are done with a bit of a nod, a wink or a giggle. The respondents know there is going to be a flurry online, there are going to be memes and whatnot. The reality is there is little consideration for the fact that we do not know who has come through addiction. We do not know who is walking through the corridors of Leinster House and has come through addiction, be they elected representatives or staff. Those conversations must be so dehumanising to them. It is not the same thing; it is a very different topic. However, we did not ask every woman during the repeal campaign whether she had travelled to the UK to have an abortion, which was illegal here, or whether she imported illegal drugs and took them here in order for her to be able to have an opinion on this. They are two completely different issues, but we had a reasonable, meaningful understanding that we do not simply go prodding around in these issues when they do not have anything to do with the conversation.We need to be mindful of how we talk about drug use in Ireland. We need to cut out the ridiculous headlines. We are ready to have a mature conversation about this. We need to remember that behind every drug that is taken there is an individual. Often there is a family, a group and a society who are impacted by that and we need to be ready to have a mature conversation about it.

I volunteered for the Electric Picnic with Ana Liffey. Obviously, we could not do any drug testing. People were coming to our tent and they wanted to have mature conversations. They wanted to know what they were taking, what the impact of what they were taking would be and, if they took X with Y, what would happen. We had our pages and charts and we were looking and seeing what would happen. People wanted to have a safe conversation about harm reduction and how to enjoy themselves safely. Young people were ready to have that conversation.

I visited Colombia a couple of months ago. It would be meaningful for the citizens' assembly's invitations to include representatives from somewhere such as Colombia that has been war torn through drug use. As part of their peace process, they want to end the war on drugs and look at things differently. An important perspective would be how they see ending the war on drugs and how that will positively impact the people of Colombia. We do not have drugs here in Ireland that do not come from, or are manufactured, somewhere else and there is a chain of misery that comes with them. An important of the citizens' assembly would be to look at other countries and how they want to go forward.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I thank Senator Ruane for all the hard work she has done from day one since she has been elected to this House. On many occasions, Senator Ruane has come in here showing her passion about the real experience that you see in Tallaght that she went through as an individual. Senator Ruane has brought so much to this discussion, for example, the Bill that she brought forward in 2017. We must give credit where credit is due. We would not be here today without the hard work of Senator Ruane pushing through. It was always at the top of the Senator's agenda. I also thank our staff today for the amendments. That needs to be acknowledged.

This assembly will give an opportunity to people to be able to look at the failed policy on drugs that we have had in our country. We have seen the rise of drugs since the policy. We have seen the rise of drug deaths since the policy. Every day, two people on this island die by drugs.

Decades after the legislation was put through, we will be able to have an honest conversation. This assembly will have the potential to change people's lives. We have to invite all people around the table, including members of the Traveller community, working-class people, people of colour, black people, brown people - everybody. It also includes drug addicts - people who are going through the life experience.

As has already been said, we should be looking at the health-led approach to drugs because we know that it works. Evidence and overwhelming research shows that it works. In this country, we should have more detox beds. We should have more services for people to be able to get off drugs and treatment should be accessible for people. There should be safe places for people to be able to inject as well.

Many people from all parts of society use drugs in an unproblematic way. The Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, said in her speech two days ago that she will listen to all the debate and bring all this debate to the assembly. In our amendments, including those tabled by Senator Ruane, we have voiced a worry that the current motion would narrow down the discussion to the harm of drug abuse. We were worried about that but we are open and we will take the Minister of State at her word that we will have a broader discussion. We welcome that.

Has the Minister of State put any thought into how she would tackle some of the issues that come up in the assembly? One of those issues could be people having to take time out to care for a loved one or having different priorities. Is there any payment for those people? When I say that, we are not looking for big salaries or anything of the sort, but a small payment for them.

Regarding people who cannot afford to make written submissions, would we accept oral submissions to the assembly? It is the little things that we have to consider if we are going to do something after all the battling and after all the discussions that we have had here in this House. I would not be as expert in the language as Senator Ruane because it is her field but I know what it is like on the ground. I see it all the time. I have seen families being impacted by drugs. I have seen harmless people getting caught up in drug dealing. I have seen harmless people being evicted and criminalised because of using drugs. Where they are vulnerable and actually the victims of their addiction, they are now criminalised. They are the ones who are behind bars because of drug use. Senator Ruane also did a lot of work on this. This assembly has to look at the decriminalisation of drugs because we should not be saying, especially to poor people and people in poverty, that they are criminal because they take drugs. We should nurture people, look after people's rehabilitation and provide the services I mentioned, such as safe injection spaces and detox services.

We tabled some amendments. If our amendments were accepted, it would be brilliant. At present, we are not too sure if they will be accepted or not. It is the voice of the people. The Civil Engagement Group works with people on the ground who are living this experience.

We can come in here and say that people are causing themselves harm without looking at the root causes. Senator Ruane speaks about it - the trauma, the life experience, the poverty and what we see around us. Sometimes we do not ask to be brought into the communities. A lot of the time, we are lucky. If you are rich, you are very lucky. If you are born into a working-class community in Dublin - you do not choose the community you are born into - sometimes in life it can be that vicious circle.

We need an open discussion. I would stress that people should have the opportunity. There should be no mistakes made. We are old enough. We are at a stage in society where people are open to conversation. Around the drugs issue within our society, there should not be anything left behind. There should be a wide-open space where we can talk about crack cocaine, where we can talk about cocaine and where we can talk about heroin because it is not only about the so-called "simpler" drugs. Drink has more of an impact than crack cocaine or cocaine.

We would ask the Minister of State to consider our amendments. Most importantly, we would appreciate if the Minister of State listens to the people going forward. Let us do it right. If the Minister of State is going to take on this job and we are going to do it, let us do it right. Let us do it collectively together and listen to all people's voices. The assembly should be for all, not for the few.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, in her new role here. It is great to have the Minister of State here in Seanad Éireann. Deputy Naughton is representing the Department of Health and she is Minister of State now in her new role for public health, well-being and the national drugs strategy.

In her new role, the Minister of State is coming here to us regarding the citizens' assembly on drugs use that we are putting together. We need this debate because we can see the impact of drug use on families and communities all across the country. We speak here about city centres. It is not only city centres. In every town across Ireland, you can speak to anyone and you will be able to access drugs. It is not limited to city centres or extremely urban areas.

Communities have been devastated by drug use. It is in our towns. I suppose I am very conscious of that, and particularly the impact of drugs such as alcohol, never mind harder drugs.Alcohol alone is a concern, as is how we, as a society, manage and deal with the impact of alcohol abuse. Every family in Ireland can speak to how it has impacted and destroyed families. The citizens' assembly the Minister of State is putting together will, I am sure, examine many different areas. As she has said, the assembly will comprise one leader and 99 people selected randomly. She spoke of the assembly's terms of reference and I admire the fact it will consider all issues relevant to drug use. That is important. The assembly will lead to recommendations. I am thinking in particular about the harmful impacts of drugs, but also about consideration of the matter from the points of view of health, justice and education. The recommendations that come out of this assembly will require a whole-of-government response. The Minister of State will be taking that on board and working with her colleagues in government to see what we can implement. The Government has shown that it has taken recommendations from citizens' assemblies and been able to implement change on the basis of their outcomes as part of our democracy.

Lived experience is key. I am thinking of the lived experience of people who have taken drugs and have come through it, and others who have not been able to manage taking drugs, their families and the impacts on wider society. Those aspects must be taken into account.

The Minister of State said no one is immune. She and I have spoken briefly on the following matter, which I will follow up on. I will be looking for addiction services in towns across Ireland. There is currently a pilot addiction service in Galway city. I would like something similar in, for example, Ballinasloe. I am only speaking to my own experience. I recently spoke to staff members of Portiuncula Hospital. The general manager told me that many people are presenting with issues around drugs and alcohol. It is leading to more aggression in the emergency department, which is already too small to handle everything. It has people on trolleys and everything else. In parallel, I will also be looking for measures we can consider around addiction services and alcohol treatment in the community. That could happen in the likes of day hospitals. We need to consider models that work well. In areas that are, for example, 20 miles away from the nearest town or 40 miles away from the service in Galway, people cannot access treatment. Every day, I deal with people who are suffering in particular from alcohol addiction and their families. Those families are impacted. I deal with women who are in dangerous situations. I try to find homes for people. Homelessness is happening. I am looking, from a rural perspective, for addiction services that work well. Is there a way we can roll them out in the community without the need for a primary diagnosis in relation to mental health? If people are presenting because their GPs have referred them for alcohol treatment, we must look to roll out services. We might be able to work on that with the Minister of State's officials.

I very much welcome this debate. It is important to have this debate and to consider how we can put measures in place as well as the citizens' assembly, which will run its course. The Minister of State might be able to speak to the timelines involved.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I pay great tribute to Senator Ruane and all the work she has done. She and I are both chairs of drugs task forces. I asked her for a reading list of things she thought I should be educated on to make me a better chair of a drugs task force. She led me down a route that has been fascinating and very educational. I read In the Realm of Hungry Ghostsby Gabor Maté. I also read The Social Distance Between Usby Darren McGarvey. A full chapter of that book analyses the cause of drugs and looks at the concurrence of social deprivation. Mr. McGarvey states, "While the causes remain disputed and continue to baffle many, people from the poorest communities are 18 times likelier to die a drugs-related death than those from more affluent areas." He is Scottish and is writing about Scotland.

One of the things I have been doing for the past year is looking back over the history of the constituency of Dublin South-Central and employment in the area in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. Those are areas where is now a high concentration of DEIS schools, drugs task forces and services to the community. There has been known and recognised social deprivation in those areas. However, looking at the history of the likes of Inchicore, Rialto, Dolphin's Barn and Ballyfermot, there was huge employment from Guinness, Rowntrees, Semperit Tyres and Glen Abbey. Employment was also available from Dublin Corporation in its housing department, waste management and the general housing management department. There was massive employment and then, suddenly, there was not. Those places closed down and there followed generation after generation of unemployment which has now continued for decades. There was then the blight of Christy and Larry Dunne coming into those areas, filling them with heroin and wiping out whole generations of youth in the 1980s. The successors of the Dunne brothers have preyed on these communities.

I know a lot of the consideration of the citizens' assembly will be about what we decriminalise and I have huge sympathy for that. We need to not criminalise those who are the most vulnerable. We must support them. I welcome the meeting the Minister of State held with the chairs of the drugs task force yesterday. There was great hope at the end of that meeting, as there was throughout the meeting and in anticipation of it. One of the key features we must consider is how to track social deprivation and the concurrence with drug use and addiction. In areas such as, for instance, Dublin 12, there is a far greater instance of betting shops and places that sell alcohol. There are more drug dealers. There is open drug-dealing on streets such as Oliver Bond Street. It is a disgrace. Thankfully, the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris, is working on that issue.

For a long time, we have been investing in drugs task forces. They are incredibly effective. It has been my great privilege to see how they work from the inside. When the Minister, Deputy Harris, was the Minister for Health, he considered safe injecting zones. We must include people and have respect for the dignity and humanity of people who are blighted by addiction. I want to read a short paragraph from The Social Distance Between Us because it is very powerful:

People with drug problems have invariably been portrayed as vulgar, selfish and feckless individuals, whose problems are entirely self-generated. The notion that they may actually care about each other and, indeed, take care of one another, has, thus far, eluded many. But drug takers survive by moving in tight-knit communities, bonded by the acute and social inclusion they endure — much like those experiencing homelessness. Every time one addict is found dead, others grieve. They sense too that they might be next. They feel that society has all but abandoned them. Socially excluded, bastardised by the public and misunderstood by many who wish to help them, what is there to live for? And so they do what we all do when terrible things happen: they reach for whatever numbs the pain. As they do, the social contagion spreads, tearing through entire families and communities, leaving death and despair in its wake.

My hope for the citizens' assembly is that we will track the concurrence of social deprivation and drug use among those who are most vulnerable. I am not talking about recreational users. I am entirely with the Minister, Deputy Harris, on this point. If you choose to take drugs recreationally, you deserve all that follows from it because you are feeding money into crimelords. People in social deprivation get into numbing the pain of being excluded and not having equality. For us to have a just society, we must have equality that includes positive discrimination in favour of these communities. That is what I hope will come out of this process. We need positive examples and insights into where we should be targeting the support for people in those communities who are most vulnerable to being preyed upon by drug lords.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the Senators for their thoughtful and constructive comments in support of the motion before the House. There is clearly widespread support in Seanad Éireann for a citizens' assembly on drugs use. There is also a clear sense of the urgency and recognition of the importance of the task. As public representatives, we all recognise that people in the communities we serve have experienced far too much pain and suffering due to the use of drugs. Too many families have lost loved ones to overdoses. Too many families have been ruined by addiction. Too many communities have been living in fear of the criminal gangs that supply drugs in towns and villages across the country. As this debate once again demonstrated, the challenges arising from drug use are complex and multifaceted. While we know there are no easy answers, there is a clear sense in this House and beyond that the time has come for bold action and new solutions. That is why the decision to establish a citizens' assembly to look at the issues is so timely. The citizens' assembly serves to enhance the quality of Ireland's democratic system. Previous assemblies have shown members of the public have an important contribution to make to addressing these complex societal challenges. I expect the assembly on drugs use will be no different in that regard.

In their statements, Senators have identified a range of priorities they think the citizens' assembly on drugs use should address. A number of amendments have been tabled to nuance the language in, or substantively alter the focus of, the terms of reference. I fully appreciate the intent behind these amendments. Every speaker has taken a keen interest in ensuring the citizens' assembly does not overlook or neglect important issues.

On the involvement of members of local government, it is important all stakeholders have an opportunity to contribute and there are many other groups that work at the coalface and want to be involved. There are effective mechanisms to involve stakeholders, including councillors, in having input at the assembly. However, it is not in the interests of the citizen's assembly model to deconstruct what is a tried and proven model. Such assemblies have been successful precisely because they are made up of the public. An exception was made last year, as Senator Boyhan outlined, for the Dublin Citizens' Assembly that saw 12 councillors forming part of the 80-person assembly. This reflected the unique focus of that particular citizens' assembly. I assure the House there will be every opportunity for the views of councillors to be included as part of the deliberations. It is not sensible, however, to start reconfiguring the composition of the assembly to accommodate stakeholders. That would lead to every future assembly being configured in a different way. We should recall that our citizens' assembly model is regarded internationally as a leading exemplar of deliberative democracy in action. Citizens' assemblies have become a valuable part of our democratic system. Recommendations from previous assemblies have had considerable influence on policy, legislation and even the Constitution. They have also had a significant role in informing the wider public debate on important issues like marriage equality, repeal of the eighth amendment, gender equality, climate change and diversity.

The issue of supports for those on the assembly was raised. An honorarium is given to members of the assembly at the end of the process in recognition of the civic contribution they make to the process. There is also financial support available for people with childcare responsibilities or other caring responsibilities.

On hearing oral submissions, we can take these as video, audio or social media contributions. The citizens' assembly's terms of reference state it will be innovative in how it includes the voice, and listens to the lived experience, of individuals and families. It will include the voice and experience of those who are most vulnerable and marginalised. We know from past experience overly detailed terms of reference can inadvertently inhibit the autonomy, discretion and flexibility for the assembly to define and organise its work programme as it deems appropriate. Past experience has proven the Oireachtas can, and indeed must, trust both the process and members of the citizens' assembly.

I am satisfied the terms of reference as set out in this motion gives the assembly the scope and flexibility it needs to consider all relevant matters related to drug use. This includes each and every issue Members have emphasised in this debate. The citizens' assembly secretariat will be fully apprised of this debate and will be cognisant of the concerns and priorities highlighted by Senators. Ultimately, it will be up to the members of the citizens' assembly to determine their own work programme. Once we are clear the terms of reference are sufficiently well-defined to allow the assembly members to examine the issues, we then need to step back, respect the independence of the process and allow the members the space and freedom to get on with the task in hand. In due course the assembly will report back to the Oireachtas, at which point the appropriate committees will have the opportunity to debate and respond to the assembly recommendations.

I am pleased to confirm the assembly will be up and running in a few short weeks. Recruitment of the members will begin in the coming days and the first meeting of the assembly will take place in mid-April. Provided all goes according to schedule, the assembly is due to report back to the Oireachtas by the end of the year. I wish the citizens' assembly every success and I look forward to seeing the outcome of its deliberations. I thank Senators for their very important contributions.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 2:

In the second paragraph under “notes that”, in subparagraph (iii), to delete “, in local government”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 3:

In the lead-in to the motion, line 5, after “State could make to significantly” to insert “improve its response to drugs use and abuse, to improve outcomes in relation to drugs use and abuse, to”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 4:

In the lead-in to the motion, line 6, to delete “illicit”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 5:

In the lead-in to the motion, line 6, after “harmful impacts of illicit drugs” to insert “and the criminalisation of drugs”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 6:

In the second bullet point, to delete “harmful”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 7:

After the second bullet point, to insert the following: “- the impacts of criminalisation of drugs use and possession, and convictions for drugs use and possession, on individuals, families, communities and wider society;”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 8:

After the second bullet point, to insert the following: “- the potential for, and prevalence of, safe, social, recreational drugs use by individuals;”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 9:

After the third bullet point, to insert the following: “- the potential benefits of promoting a harm-reduction approach to drugs policy, including through the provision of certain supports, including, inter alia, safe-injection and safe-consumption facilities, and medication-assisted treatments for drug addiction;”

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 10:

After the third bullet point, to insert the following: “- the opportunities to improve the number and diversity of wraparound supports available to individuals who use drugs, including, inter alia, detox and aftercare facilities, and other supports which can assist individuals in their recovery from drug addiction;”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 11:

After the fourth bullet point, to insert the following: “- the perspectives of the general public, representative groups, advocacy groups, experts and policy makers on drugs use and its impacts;”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 12:

In the fifth bullet point, after “local” to insert “research and”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 13:

To delete the seventh bullet point and substitute the following: “- international best practice and practical case studies in relation to regulation of supply of drugs, and the impact of relevant legislative, policy and operational responses;

- international best practice and practical case studies in relation to increasing resilience, health and well-being in relation to drugs use;

- the opportunities to promote greater public understanding of, and support for, a health-led approach to drugs use; and”.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 14:

To delete the final bullet point under “notes that” and substitute the following: “- make payment to the members of the Citizens' Assembly and members of the Expert Advisory Group of a fair stipend commensurate with the time and energy dedicated by members of the Assembly and provide for an additional payment to fairly compensate those who incur additional costs as a result of attendance at the Assembly, including childcare costs and other caring costs.”.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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Next Tuesday at 12.30 p.m.