Seanad debates

Thursday, 17 November 2022

Central Bank (Amendment) Bill 2022: Second Stage

 

10:30 am

Photo of Catherine ArdaghCatherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, for coming to the House. I thank everyone present, especially our guests in the Gallery: Ms Rachel Morrogh from the Irish Cancer Society; Ms Suzanne Dowd from the Irish Cancer Society; and Mr. Sam Russell, who is a cancer survivor. These guests are most welcome. I thank them for everything they have done in preparing, advocating and championing this legislation. Cancer survivors owe them a huge debt.

It is a great honour for me to be asked to chair the cross-party committee on cancer in the Oireachtas. This Bill is the culmination of so much work on a cross-party basis. Without a doubt, working on a cross-party basis is exactly how we should be working daily in the Oireachtas to address problems faced by society. The cross-party group has worked really well and there is so much consensus. I thank all its members for supporting the Bill. I also thank Mr. Adrian O'Higgins, barrister, for helping and liaising with the group to draft the Bill. His time is very much appreciated.

In a nutshell, the Bill effectively means those who have fought cancer and have been in remission for many years will not be disadvantaged or discriminated against when seeking insurance. This is a simple but important step that helps cancer survivors to get on with their lives. Those who are cancer-free for five or more years will not be obliged to disclose or declare they previously suffered from cancer. This is especially pertinent for those who had cancer as a child, teenager or young adult. I hope the House will agree the legislation is long overdue. It is not something we are leading on in Ireland; this kind of legislation has already been enacted in many countries in the EU, including France. It represents an important and valuable support that we can offer to cancer survivors.

It is unlikely that there is one person in this Chamber who has not been touched by cancer in the cruel and horrible way we know it touches people. The Central Bank (Amendment) Bill seeks to end the discrimination that cancer survivors face when trying to access financial services. Research from the Irish Cancer Society has shown that nearly a quarter of those affected by cancer are not even able to get a quote for a financial product. When people enter remission after life-changing diagnoses and treatment, they have a difficult road ahead, and all they want to do is get back to the normalities of life. The normality of life is such a beautiful thing when in remission, and the mundane is beautiful. A young person in these circumstances just wants to get on with it and perhaps start a family. Starting a family involves buying a home, and when you want to buy a home you have to access financial products, particularly life assurance. When you have a cancer diagnosis, this is made a lot more difficult.

Older people trying to plan for retirement also need to access life assurance products for themselves and their families. The current arrangements are very difficult for them. Ultimately, they are discriminated against on the back of having had a cancer diagnosis and having fought and survived cancer. It is unfair that the financial system works against cancer patients in this way as they have already suffered enough owing to their illness.

The Bill will seek to change existing legislation to ensure no individual will have to declare a cancer diagnosis five years after active treatment. It will ensure that an institution offering mortgage credit, health insurance, travel insurance or any financial product will not be able to discriminate against a cancer survivor. At the very least, this is the common decency the financial system should show towards cancer survivors.

I am introducing this Bill alongside my colleague Senator Buttimer. Senator Gavan is supporting it on behalf of Sinn Féin. It involves a cross-party group that involves Members from the Green Party, the Labour Party, the Social Democrats and People Before Profit. I hope we can continue to work in a non-partisan manner to proceed with this Bill to the benefit of cancer survivors across the country.

It is important to hear the voices of cancer survivors who describe the penalties they suffer owing to a past diagnosis when seeking financial products. Let me summarise and quote some of the feedback from a survey conducted by the Irish Cancer Society:

Many of the people interviewed explained they faced a lack of options when attempting to access loans and/or insurance, which meant that they struggled to find a provider who would listen to them or approve their request. Many interviewees mentioned that once they were able to access financial products or services that they were met with penalties such as higher premiums and interest rates ... This often means their journeys towards accessing financial products ... ends before it even begins.

"Once you mention you've had cancer, the shutters come down."

"I didn't get to speak to someone properly, it was just a 'no sorry.'"

"I didn't even bother asking for a loan."

"I still don't have life cover, even though my scan was clear last time."

"It was just the cost of it for my premium. It's not fair. Anyone with a heart condition traveling on an airplane is a bigger risk than someone with cancer."

Ultimately, people are left demoralised. The process and experience of applying for financial products or services has taken an emotional toll on so many of the interviewees. One stated, "Feel low. Demoralised ... like I caused my illness ... 20 questions and hoops to jump through left me deflated." Another stated, "Very long process, very stressful, require too much information on cancer diagnosis, diagnosis creates a lot of barriers, even though am in remission."

I am aware that the Minister of State has made clear his support for this Bill. I really hope it will pass today without amendment. I really hope that everyone in this House sees its importance and accepts it as it is. There may be small flaws in it that can be corrected on Committee Stage but allowing it to proceed to that Stage will be huge for survivors. They are watching what we are doing today. I hope all Members of the House will support the Bill today.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, to the House. I second Senator Ardagh's comments on the Bill. I congratulate and compliment her on her work, diligence and tenacity and for chairing the cross-party committee. Today is an important day. The Senator is right that it is about ensuring better outcomes for people. Our debate today, while it may be about a technical Bill, is about the quality of life of people. I welcome our distinguished visitors in the Gallery and thank them for their advocacy and work on what I hope will be an occasion on which the House is not divided and consensus is reached.

Let me start at the beginning, with the question of why we are here. The Irish Cancer Society has a tremendous reach, to every corner of society. Take Daffodil Day as an example of what it does. It brings young and old, urban and rural, together under the umbrella of the society and allows people to share their stories. Some have the worst of outcomes and others have tremendous outcomes.In the middle of all of this, it allows people to speak about cancer and the import it has in the lives of so many. There is not one of us in this Chamber today who has not had a family member or friend affected by cancer. Today's Bill reaches out and says that the medical history is one part is a story - a significant one - but it should not be the only thing that defines a person in their interaction with financial institutions, for example. That is why Senator Ardagh deserves great praise for being able to say to all of us - the Government and the financial institutions - that they should hold on a moment. She used some very interesting words in her contribution such as "remission" and "recovery". Our outcomes today for cancer are way better than they were 20 or 40 years ago and, as a consequence, the evolving nature of medicine means that people's outcomes with cancer are better, which is fantastic.

I sincerely thank all who are involved in working with and caring for people who have cancer. We can all look at the various institutions today, such as the Marymount University Hospital and Hospice and St. Luke's Home in Cork, where people are on their final journey or are on their journey home with a wonderful outcome. Let us look at what Sam Russell has stated in his research. He says: "I know I will go on to live a healthy life as outcomes for this condition [of thyroid cancer] are excellent." In her contribution, Senator Ardagh also referred to the following line: "I don’t have life insurance and I’ll need mortgage protection in the coming years when I go to buy a house, but at the moment I have no certainty as to whether I’ll be offered coverage when that point comes." The trauma of being a cancer patient is one part. After that, there is the recovery piece and the emotional stress and worry about the future. Once people have dealt with the physical trauma, they then worry about their future and whether they can provide for themselves or their family. The word "certainty" comes to mind. What we are trying to do here today is to create certainty.

Another point in the research struck me. I want Members to listen to it because it is powerful.

It will be a roll of the dice, and it's unfair as I’m being punished for something that's not my fault. It's a problem I wouldn't have to face in other countries, and it seems like such an easy fix to me.

The easy fix sometimes becomes the more difficult fix. We can put up myriad reasons as to why we cannot do 1, 2 and 3 or A, B and C. To be fair to the Minister of State, he has championed significant reform in insurance. He has driven through the various logjams that were there. Similarly, we can do the same here. The fundamental aim in the Bill is to support people and give them certainty, to allow for life to continue and peace of mind. The right to be forgotten beyond cancer is not just a slogan or a fancy term that we use as a gimmick to get a headline in a newspaper or in an advertisement brochure. It is important to have a right to be forgotten beyond cancer. Therefore, this Bill is important.

There is another piece that is important today, which illustrates what we have become very good at doing in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I refer to the establishment of cross-party groups to deal with issues. Today, it is about cancer. Alzheimer's disease is another issue, as is special needs education. We did it with Brexit in this House. It allows Members to work together in a non-adversarial way, not in the glare of media publicity or under the watchful eye of people. It allows us to become involved and immersed in an issue and to discuss, debate and tease out the minutiae, as you have done, Acting Chair, with surrogacy and other issues. I give you credit in that regard.

I know the Government takes the view that we can cross the bridge when we come to it. However, the engagement must not only happen before a Bill comes to the House. For that reason, if we are to take our role as legislators even more seriously than we do, as a former Chair of the health committee I am a strong proponent in this House of the pre-legislative scrutiny of legislation. In the context of the Bill before the House, would it not be an idea for us to have pre-legislative scrutiny of it in a committee, either health or finance, or even both committees together? When former Deputy Ó Caoláin was on the health committee with me, he proposed that we work with the former Minister of State, then Chair of the justice committee, Deputy Stanton and the two committees worked together on drugs. It was brilliant. We brought two committees together. We do it on a North-South dimension between Stormont and here. I do not know why we cannot do it in these situations, rather than have issues pertaining to timed amendments or an adjournment of the debate. To be fair to the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, he has been very open and supportive of the Bill.

This is about eliminating discrimination and not disenfranchising people. It is a necessary reform. It is about people. People must be at the centre of everything we do in politics, and the work we do must be dedicated to making their lives better and providing a better outcome.

I compliment Senator Ardagh on the tremendous work that she has done. This is a Bill we should all wrap ourselves around and support because it improves and enhances people's lives and gives them certainty in terms of the right to be forgotten beyond cancer. I thank Senator Ardagh.

Photo of Mary Seery KearneyMary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome our guests. I note that the Irish Cancer Society is an organisation we are all delighted to assist. We are grateful that it is there when our family members need it.

Photo of Maria ByrneMaria Byrne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, for coming to discuss this all-important Bill today. I compliment Senator Ardagh, Senator Buttimer, and the rest of the committee who have brought this very important Bill forward.

I will follow up on a few points Senator Buttimer made. People who are cancer sufferers and survivors did not go out of their way to become ill. Realistically, financial institutions discriminate against many people. People who have cancer can make a full recovery and go on to lead very happy, healthy and long lives. Such people must be assisted to move forward. That is the reason this Bill must be supported. Work must be carried out by those bringing the Bill forward, in conjunction with the Department. There was a debate in Europe last year, which was referred to be as the right to be forgotten, and it was promoted by the European Cancer Patient Coalition. It was suggested that it would commence ten years after a person has recovered but ten years is too long. The five-year period outlined by Senator Ardagh is more realistic.

I also pay tribute to the members of the Irish Cancer Society. We have all been affected by a family member or close friend being ill.It is something that affects every family at some stage in their lives. Research from the Irish Cancer Society has shown that nearly one quarter of people affected by cancer are not able to get a quote for a financial product such as a mortgage or life insurance. I have spoken to people who had difficulty accessing life insurance. In other cases, if someone was ill when they were young and they went on to try to get a mortgage, it was extremely difficult. In some cases their partner may have been able to take out the mortgage in their own name, but it has not worked out for everybody. It is an area we need to look at closely because we cannot discriminate against people. When you are diagnosed with cancer, it is a life-changing experience for an individual and their family members. Many young people have been diagnosed in recent times. It is not fair of financial institutions to penalise somebody who has been diagnosed with it.

Senator Buttimer's suggestion of bringing the two or three committees together that have a key interest in strengthening it could be a way to work with the Department and the Minister; many heads coming together come up with worthy suggestions. Survivors have been punished for too long, which is something else we need to look at. The European Parliament hopes to publish its findings and suggestions by 2024. That is too far away; we need to act now. We need to support the young people, young family members and families who end up in this situation. I support the Bill and commend all involved on bringing this proposal together, especially Senator Ardagh.

Photo of Vincent P MartinVincent P Martin (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach. On behalf of the Green Party, I am delighted to support this Bill. It is wonderful to see a collaborative approach. It is not unprecedented in this Chamber, but it is something we cherish. I am a huge believer in co-operation and collaboration. The Green Party-Comhaontas Glas would like to support this legislative initiative and commends Senator Ardagh and all those who are supporters and sponsors of it and have demonstrated resilient focus. They have at the centre a caring disposition in terms of this legislation and wish to make our country, in this one instance, a better place. One may think this one instance is a small thing, but for others it is a life-changing chapter that can go either way. At present, there is a lack of humanity. Insurance companies have been getting it too easy for too long. This is a step back where this legislative Chamber is saying, "Enough, this is something we can do." We take the party politics out of it and we can try to drive this through and become a centre of excellence for fairness and humanity, a beacon of light for all of Europe. They will look to Ireland where we embrace people who have survived. As Senator Buttimer said, we all have been affected by cancer in our families, friends and neighbours. My parents passed away from cancer; both unfortunately lost their lives to cancer, oesophageal and pancreatic cancer. For those who survive, to put an obstacle in the way of making a new start seems wrong. There has to be a way forward. The whole purpose of the legislative journey is to road test, test things and improve them. In her detailed opening speech, Senator Ardagh did not claim that this is a perfect Bill; that is the whole purpose of the constructive critique it receives.

There is much we can do in this realm. I am conscious of, for instance, the common law defence of inevitable accident where the person, for example, behind a mechanically-propelled vehicle instantly and tragically dies and that vehicle goes out of control and may do damage to pedestrians. There is then a civil action, but negligence cannot be identified. In such instances, insurance companies quickly lawyer up with the best lawyers. Over 20 years ago, a young High Court judge, Mr. Justice Frank Clarke, said that his hands were tied due to the ancient common law defence of inevitable accident, where you cannot identify the negligence. He put down in his obiter dictum; it is up to the Oireachtas to change the policy direction. That is another small brick I am currently researching, to see if there is a way of bringing a Bill to the House not to necessarily abolish the common law defence of inevitable accident, but to dilute it, at the very least.

Another area, though not in the same important league, is in cases of accidents where a person is sued and the insurance company takes control of the case and can run the case whatever way it wants. I am sure they do it to their best professional ability, but the insured, the defendant named in the proceedings, has no hand, act or part and under current law is not even told about it. He or she learns about it in the newspaper - it could be several years later - for the first time. That should not be an act of courtesy, that should be tied into the insurance contract, to inform the so-called defendant in court proceedings that the matter is before the courts.

Overall, I would say to my fellow Senators, led ably by Senators Ardagh and Buttimer and others, that this is a good day for the Seanad. There will be a few bumps along the road, but if we stay resilient and take a leaf out of Senator Ardagh's book, our collective force and strength is greater than any one individual legislator's strength. With strong resilience we will do our utmost to push this over the line in both Houses, where we will bring it home in the lifetime of this Government. That would be real progress and something I would be proud to be associated with.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome our guests in the Chamber this afternoon. On behalf of Sinn Féin, I welcome this Bill. I was proud to second the First Stage of this Bill in the Seanad a few weeks ago. I recognise the work of Senator Ardagh in particular, her colleague Senator Buttimer and my own colleague, Deputy Guirke, who has also been a champion of this Bill. As others have mentioned, when this Chamber works on a cross-party basis, we can often get a lot done. This Bill, as has been mentioned, seeks to amend the current legislation to ensure that five years after finishing treatment, someone who had a cancer diagnosis will not have to declare their previous diagnosis. The Irish Cancer Society has shown its support for the Bill. I am sure thousands of cancer survivors will be relieved if the legislation is changed. I am glad that there has been cross-party support for this Bill. I thank the cross-party group on cancer for pushing forward with it. The right to be forgotten legislation is not something new. European countries such as France, Portugal and the Benelux countries have been leading on this issue. A colleague of ours, Kathleen, told me about her own experience recently.I thank her for giving me permission to read her words in the Chamber this afternoon. Here is what she said to me:

At the age of 24, I had Thyroid cancer. Within weeks I had the surgery and iodine treatment which cured me. I have been cancer free for almost 20 years.

Earlier this year my husband and I got terrific news that we finally had mortgage approval. We found a house and went sale agreed. We then spoke with our broker about mortgage protection. Immediately, I was advised that my history of cancer meant there might be an issue. A few weeks later my GP was asked to send off a medical report.

Weeks later again the insurance company decided they were not satisfied and requested further test results. I spent hundreds of euros running around getting scans and blood tests done privately getting urgent appointments.

At one point the vendors were indicating that they might pull out if we couldn't get things finalised. I was in floods of tears. It had taken us so many years to get to the point where we could finally afford to buy a home - we had been stuck in the rental trap for so long - and I couldn't believe this was happening.

Thankfully the insurance did get approved in the end but not before I felt sick with the stress. I felt like I was being punished.

The insurance company put me through the wringer and it was completely unnecessary - and it was cruel.

The thing that many cancer survivors will say is, that the hardest part, mentally, of dealing with that whole part of your life is in the immediate aftermath of being cancer free. How to move on with your life. How to act like everything is normal again. How to let go of the fear.

But most people do eventually build their life again and learn to forget about the fear that cancer instils in you. It is only fair that having moved on with our lives that insurance and finance companies forget about our cancer too. Cancer survivors do not deserve to keep being punished.

I again thank Cathleen for giving me her permission to tell her story, which clearly shows why it is so important that we deal with this issue today. I agree with Senator Buttimer about Committee Stage. We should be creative in making sure the committee works diligently on this Bill. I also agree with Senator Ardagh that we should not delay this Bill. The way cross-party motions and Bills work is that we all agree on the Bill and we support it and move it through the process. I was concerned to hear that a potential delay of 12 months is being proposed by the Government. I appeal to the Minister of State not to do that because it is not necessary. There are plenty of opportunities across both Houses to give this Bill the scrutiny it deserves. If we run out of time today, which looks like a possibility now, I would ask the Leader - I am delighted she is present - for early scheduling so we can finish Second Stage of this Bill and get behind it. None of us should play politics with a Bill like this, given the lives and suffering I and others have just described. All of us support this Bill. It is in the Minister of State's power to ensure this Bill passes Second Stage swiftly. I hope I speak on behalf of everyone when I ask him to please not delay this Bill.

Photo of Marie SherlockMarie Sherlock (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I warmly welcome Second Stage of this Bill. I pay tribute to Senator Ardagh, Senator Buttimer and all those in the cross-party Oireachtas group on cancer. Today's Bill is about the right to be forgotten, specifically with regard to those who have endured a cancer diagnosis and treatment and have come through the other side. This Bill is about dragging our financial providers into an up-to-date situation.

The medical treatment and care around cancer has gone through incredible improvements in this country and across Europe and the developed world over many years. Cancer is no longer the sure death sentence that it used to be. It is vital that people do not continue to suffer a penalty in their working lives, their financial lives or, indeed, their family lives because they have had that experience in the past. The Labour Party is very supportive of this Bill. We talk about cancer survivors but a good friend of mine who went through cancer a number of years ago used to use the phrase "cancer thrivers". Ultimately, so many people go on to live even fuller lives into the future after having that diagnosis and protracted treatment. They are grateful for every day they have now because of that awful experience in the past. This Bill is part and parcel of allowing people to be cancer thrivers as opposed to just merely survivors.

I want to touch on the amendment that has been put down. It is disappointing to see this conservative reflex with regard to the fear of unknown consequences of this Bill. I would say to the Government to read what it says on the tin. This Bill is about those who have had cancer, not any other life limiting or major illness, although there are plenty of those. Those people also get a very raw deal when they try to purchase a house or access other financial products but we are specifically talking about those who have had cancer in the past and are five years on. It is important that we call that out. This is a very narrowly defined Bill in that regard and should be recognised as such. I too would be very disappointed if there were any delays to this Bill because it merely brings financial providers up to date with the wonderful medical advances there have been in this country with regard to cancer care.

I also pay tribute to the Irish Cancer Society. I note that Senator Ardagh and the many other Senators and Deputies who have been involved in this process worked with that society. It has been pushing for this legislation. I pay tribute to its work because much of that work, particularly in recent years, has been not just about the medical impact of a cancer diagnosis but the impact on people's working lives and their finances. It is about the totality of their lives because for most people who go through a cancer diagnosis, it is not something that is resolved within a few weeks. It can drag on for a long period of time. The Irish Cancer Society has also spoken about the need to deal with people's working lives and sick pay. Our illness benefit system does not deal well with those who have cancer because if someone goes back to work after a period of being out and then has to go out again, those two periods are counted as one. People then end up being caught. I pay tribute to the Irish Cancer Society for all its work in this space.

I appeal to the Government to progress this Bill. It is a very simple and straightforward Bill. It does not refer to any other illnesses. While a conversation needs to take place about all those other illnesses, this is just about cancer and those who are five years on. That is clinically recognised by the medical profession as when a person's cancer experience has, by and large, ended and they are free to get on with their lives cancer free.

Photo of Frances BlackFrances Black (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I congratulate Senators Ardagh, Buttimer and Gavan, and the entire membership of the Oireachtas cross-party cancer group, on the introduction of this legislation. I also pay tribute to the work that group does in general. It does phenomenal work. This Bill is the kind of thoughtful, compassionate and subtle legislation that this Chamber specialises in, which I hope will attract cross-party support. It is vital that this Bill is looked at today and I would love to see it passed. The operations of this House often fly beneath the radar of public attention. This legislation, which is collaborative, cross-party and informed by engagement with civil society, is exactly how the Seanad adds value to our legislative process. I hope many more Bills like it will follow and that the Government gives them a fair hearing.

Cancer is a horrific disease that touches all our lives. Other Members have said this. If it does not impact on ourselves we all almost certainly have a friend, family member or loved one who has not been so fortunate. I have lost some family members to cancer. I also know, as Senator Sherlock called them, cancer thrivers.She could not have described it better. When people get through cancer, including the horrific treatment that goes along with it, and come out the other side, they live each day on an hourly basis and enjoy every moment of it. We are all too familiar with the tragic impacts cancer can have on human health. Fortunately, due to the incredible work of medical staff and scientific researchers, the survival rate is significantly higher than it used to be even a few decades ago. Most cancer diagnoses are not death sentences. People need medical support to recover from cancer but they also need economic and social supports to continue living full and active lives.

Cancer often disrupts people's careers or caring responsibilities, which can have a lasting economic impact. This needs to be factored into our understanding of the disease and its impact on the population. I was shocked to read the recent report by the Irish Cancer Society, which detailed that one of the big challenges faced by cancer thrivers - I use "thrivers" instead of "survivors" - is the discrimination they experience from financial institutions. It really is shocking. A large number of people who have had cancer experience shoddy treatment from banks and financial institutions, which refuse to recognise that they have been healthy for a good number of years since their recovery from the disease and do not pose a massive risk to the firm. Survivors reported negative and demoralising interactions with the agents of these companies and the feeling that the nuance of their unique medical journey is not understood by staff who make decisions based on their uninformed assumptions about the disease and its survivors. It is shocking that people, having going through what they have done, are treated like that by financial institutions.

Access to insurance and credit are essential elements of a person's ability to be economically active and prosperous. These financial facilities and products have existed since ancient societies and were essential to the development of the more complex commercial and administrative structures that featured in early civilisations. Laws governing debt and insurance were included in the Code of Hammurabi, which contained the laws set out by the ruler of ancient Mesopotamia of that name. The code is thought to be the first known example of written law. In the United States, discrimination concerning ethnic minorities' access to credit and mortgages reinforced and reproduced a racial wealth gap that persists today. I refer to access to finance in a broad historical sense to make the point that discrimination in the financial sphere is not just a mere inconvenience. It is an issue that is centrally important if we want to create a society of economic and social justice.

As we all know, cancer survivors can recover and go on to lead full, exciting and successful lives. I have a cousin who has come through it. Her survival truly is a miracle and we are all very grateful she is still here. For some, recovery means wanting to purchase property, start a business or do other things that almost always require access to credit. We cannot let someone's future be defined by an illness in his or her past. We need to empower cancer survivors, not constrain them.

If enacted, this Bill will provide some much-needed relief and security to a group of people who have already withstood so much. I reiterate my congratulations to Senator Ardagh and everyone involved in bringing forward the Bill. I hope it achieves broad support and is swiftly enacted. I ask the Minister of State to give it his full support. Doing so would mean he leaves a great legacy. For cancer survivors, stress is the one thing they should not have to face. In fact, there is evidence that some cancers are stress-related. It would be fantastic if the Bill were to pass Second Stage today. That would be a great legacy for the House and the Members who come after us.

Photo of Pat CaseyPat Casey (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome our special guests in the Gallery and the Minister of State. Fianna Fáil welcomes the Bill, which was put forward by my colleagues, Senators Ardagh and Buttimer. It seeks to end the discrimination cancer survivors face when trying to access financial services. Research from the Irish Cancer Society has shown that nearly a quarter of people affected by cancer are unable even to get a quotation for a financial product such as a mortgage or life insurance.

A cancer diagnosis, and the treatment that follows, is a major life-changing event for any individual. When people enter remission and are clear of cancer, they have a difficult road ahead to get their normal life back and enjoy the time they missed while undergoing treatment. For young people, especially, once they are cancer-free, they will be eager to move on with their life by starting a family or buying their own home. It is unthinkable that financial institutions would punish people for previously having cancer if they try to get a mortgage for a home. It is unfair that the financial system would work against former cancer patients in this way when they have already suffered enough as a result of their illness. The Bill seeks to change previous legislation to ensure no individual will have to declare a cancer diagnosis five years after finishing active treatment. It will ensure that institutions offering mortgage credit, health insurance, travel insurance or any personal insurance product will not be able to discriminate against cancer survivors. This is at the very least common decency the financial system can be expected to show people who have experienced cancer.

My colleague, Senator Ardagh, together with Senator Buttimer, is putting the Bill forward on behalf of the Oireachtas cross-party group on cancer, which is made up of Members from all parties, including the Green Party, the Labour Party, the Social Democrats and People Before Profit-Solidarity. Senator Ardagh hopes we can continue to work in a bipartisan manner to proceed with the Bill for the benefit of cancer survivors across the country. Ms Rachel Morrogh of the Irish Cancer Society, who is one of our guests in the Gallery, said in response to the publication of the Bill:

No cancer patient should be financially penalised for having survived cancer. Imagine being a survivor of a childhood cancer and years later being denied what many consider to be rites of passage to adulthood such as getting a mortgage, getting life insurance and even travelling abroad.

Survivors feel that they are being punished for their past diagnosis through hefty premiums and, in some cases, denial of cover. The Irish Cancer Society has previously called for legislative action rather than self-regulation by the insurance industry, which it considers to be too weak a tool to address the difficulties currently experienced by cancer survivors.

The publication of today's Bill is a welcome step in the right direction towards the fairer treatment of people impacted by cancer, and we are optimistic that it will receive the support of all parties as it goes through the Houses.

She thanked the cross-party Oireachtas group for its work on progressing the Bill.

The passage of the Bill would see Ireland become the latest EU country to implement the right to be forgotten initiative, alongside France, Portugal and the Benelux countries. This move has been welcomed by another of our distinguished guests in the Gallery, Mr. Sam Russell. Senator Gavan spoke about the experience of a person who is a survivor of thyroid cancer. Mr. Russell, who survived the same cancer, has said:

As someone living with thyroid cancer, I know I will go on to live a healthy life as outcomes for this condition are excellent. After I finished treatment two years ago, I realised how it would impact my life. I don't have life insurance and I'll need mortgage protection in the coming years when I go to buy a house, but at the moment I have no certainty as to whether I'll be offered coverage when that point comes. It will be a roll of the dice, and it's unfair as I'm being punished for something that's not my fault.

We need to look at this issue in the context of what is happening in Europe. With the introduction of this Bill, we are only following what is happening elsewhere. Earlier this year, the European Parliament called for the right to be forgotten to be provided to all EU patients within ten years of finishing treatment for cancer. In its Europe's Beating Cancer Plan, published in February 2021, the European Commission promises to:

...closely examine practices in the area of financial services (including insurance) from the point of view of fairness towards cancer survivors [in the long term]. In the short term, the Commission will work with relevant stakeholders to address access to financial products for cancer survivors.

In May 2022, the EU health Commissioner announced an EU-wide right to be forgotten and committed, under Europe's Beating Cancer Plan, to the next steps, which are to engage with stakeholders and gather further information and insights with the aim of establishing and adopting an EU code of conduct in the area by 2024. A considerable amount of work is being done at European level. We have started that work in Ireland today and it is important that we continue it. I acknowledge and congratulate Senators Ardagh and Buttimer on the work they have done. As somebody else said, we all know somebody who has been impacted by cancer and we do not know who will be diagnosed tomorrow morning. It could be any one of us. It is important that this legislation passes through the House.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak. I pay tribute to the conveners of the Bill, Senators Ardagh and Buttimer, and the entire team on the cancer committee who have worked hard to address a matter in Ireland that is not just an anomaly but is life-altering and life-halting.

I find myself agreeing more and more when Senator Gavan speaks in this Chamber, which is a worrying situation to find myself in.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is true for both of us.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is powerful when we work together on a cross-party basis in this Chamber. When we have issues on which we all agree, there should be no need for discord or disunity.

This is no reflection on anyone but I can speak from experience when I say that when we laypeople, even though we are legislators, create and draft Bills, we never think they are going to be perfect. We always expect them to be enhanced and changed by the contributions of everybody here and all of the experts and officials in our Departments. That is the position we are in today. We have an unusual situation in that we will be finishing this Bill and adjourning early. However, we all know that we want the proper outcome whereby we have legislation on our books to allow cancer patients who, thankfully, have survived to get on with the rest of their lives without Ireland Inc. standing in their way. That is all I want to say. We have a consensus in the House and I expect there to be consensus in the Dáil on the objective of this particular Bill, which is to allow people to live their lives in a manner that affords them the dignity and respect of getting over and surviving that awful disease to which many people succumb. I fully support the Bill. I want to support it with the co-operation of the Department and the Minister of State, who we thank for being here today, and get it onto our Statute Book. We can improve the Bill but we need to get it onto the Statute Book as quickly as we possibly can.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well said.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Like others, I welcome our guests and commend the work of the Irish Cancer Society. Cancer impacts all of us. As Senator Casey said, we do not know who will be affected by cancer next. The Minister of State will be aware that our colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, has spoken bravely about how she has recently dealt with cancer. It is something that impacts all aspects of Irish society.

The Minister of State is a caring and empathetic person who I know agrees with the objectives of this legislation. As everyone has said, we can all work together to achieve the objectives of the Bill. It can be amended on Committee Stage and as Senator Doherty said, elements of all legislation can be improved and that is the purpose of the process. We have an obligation here. People look to us, as legislators, to take action specifically on this matter.

I also pay tribute to the cross-party committee for its work and to Senator Ardagh. It is one of her passions within and without this Chamber. It is something about which she feels very strongly and I commend her on her work.

There is an immediate impact on the income of all cancer sufferers and cancer survivors, apart from the emotional impact and so on. If one gets a cancer diagnosis, it can impact one's ability to work and earn, and many other aspects of life. Down the line, when one looks for financial products, insurance products or mortgages, one also has to face challenges. It is not fair. As colleagues have said, we are not reinventing the wheel here. Belgium, France and the Netherlands and, from this year, Portugal and Italy have all introduced schemes which allow for fair access to financial products for those who have survived cancer. In other countries, such as Luxembourg, an agreement is in place between the department of health and the insurance companies. France was the first country to introduce such a scheme. It introduced the right to be forgotten in 2016. Let us examine the experience of the French and what happened there. In France, there are guarantees that people who are in long-term remission do not have to report their cancer history when they are applying for insurance and other products. A ten-year period was originally introduced but one of President Macron's campaign promises was to reduce that to five years. There is cross-party consensus in France to allow for that. While this is new legislation for Ireland, it is not ground-breaking. Other member states with similar challenges with regard to cancer have done this successfully. I entirely agree with Senator Sherlock's point of view that this Bill applies specifically to those who have survived cancer. I do not like the concern over unintended consequences. The legislation is clear about who it applies to. I agree with Senator Sherlock that we should be considering legislation for other illnesses. However, that is not what this legislation is about.

I ask that we expedite this legislation and move on it as quickly as we can. When we are speaking here, we are thinking about people we know who have been impacted by cancer. We know the challenges through which they have had to go. They are going to have to continue to go through some of those challenges but this is one small measure we can take to make their lives a little easier. They are still going to have to face all the other rigours when they go to the bank. We have talked about the problems with Central Bank lending rules and so on. Those people are going to have to face those same challenges. However, it is entirely unfair that somebody who is in long-term remission will have to mention that fact on an application form.

The Minister of State is hearing cross-party pleas here. I know him as a man of great empathy. I am sure he knows people who have been impacted by cancer. Can we please expedite this Bill as much as possible?

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I commend my colleagues for tabling this Bill. It makes absolute sense. As Senator Malcolm Byrne said, similar legislation exists in other countries and there is international precedent for it. I have no doubt but that the Minister of State understands the logic behind this Bill. Why should somebody suffer as a result of a condition they have overcome?

There are other people who find it extremely difficult to get a mortgage, for example, people with disabilities. It is shocking how many people are turned down for mortgages because they have disabilities even though they are in active, full and guaranteed employment. I know of a person who was in a car accident over a decade ago and had an acquired brain injury as a result. This person continues to live a full and active life and is in a guaranteed and well-paid job but cannot get a mortgage. There is something frightfully unfair about such a situation. Surely to God there is something we can do for somebody like that who cannot get a mortgage simply because he or she has an acquired brain injury. Perhaps the Minister of State's office would come back to me as to how I can advise this person to go about getting a mortgage. The person is still living with their parents even though they have a very good job and could well afford to pay a mortgage. What kind of a society are we if we treat people like that? When it comes to financial services and financial supports, there is no equality whatsoever for people with disabilities. Even when they do overcome their disabilities and get into a position where they are earning money, paying taxes and contributing to society in a positive way, they are left in a situation where they cannot get a mortgage to purchase and have their own homes.There is something fundamentally wrong with that. As Senator Byrne has said, that is not what this particular legislation is about but we need to address those issues. We need to create an equality in financial services. It is shocking to think that somebody who has had a cancer diagnosis is automatically deprived of getting a mortgage. This is very important legislation and I welcome it. I agree with previous speakers that the Bill needs to be expedited. I do not know why the Department or its officials would have a problem with it because it makes sense. It supports, encourages and looks after citizens of our State who are working and contributing to our society. There is no logic in-----

Photo of Mary Seery KearneyMary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for interrupting but the time set by the Order of Business for debate on this Bill has now expired.

Debate adjourned.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 2.22 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ag 2.30 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 2.22 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.