Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Under a new procedure approved by the House the combined speeches of the proposer and seconder shall not exceed 16 minutes. All other Senators have six minutes and the Minister of State, because of her schedule, has indicated that after the proposer and seconder, she proposes to intervene to make her major contribution. We will then go back to the party spokespersons. Those are the Minister of State's wishes.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I have an issue with the motion in terms of the 16 minutes and being fair to Senator O'Loughlin. I know that-----

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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You can divide it with Senator O'Loughlin.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that but if the Leas-Chathaoirleach could indulge me for half a minute. We should not be limiting the time of debate in the House and I am not part of the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight, but it is an erroneous decision by it to curtail the speaking time of Members. In previous contributions, Senator McDowell has spoken about how, on occasions like this we should give the proponent of a motion further time. I am disappointed to hear that proposal.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Senator Buttimer's point is noted. We will move on. I call on Senator O'Loughlin to move the Private Members' motion. She has 16 minutes and I understand Senator Casey is seconding the motion.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I move:

That Seanad Éireann: agrees that:

- there is a need to deliver a fairer, more efficient, and more reliable public transport system for all;

- it is necessary to incentivise greater use of public transport in order to meet climate targets as set out in the climate action plan;

- it is important to make our public transport more affordable for everyone and not just for commuters in bigger cities;

recognises that:

- currently the short hop zone includes all stations in the Dublin area from Kilcoole to Balbriggan, from Dublin city centre stations to Kilcock and from Heuston Station, Dublin to Sallins and Naas, Co. Kildare, including all DART services;

- commuters from areas such as Newbridge in South Kildare are paying €8.45 to Heuston Station while commuters from Sallins pay €3.90 and areas such as Wicklow Town, Rathdrum and Arklow in South Wicklow are paying between €15.75 and €10.45 to Connolly Station while commuters from Kilcoole pay €3.90;

- many commuters are therefore forced to travel by car to stations in the short hop zone due to the price differential;

and calls for:

- an extension of the current short hop zone infrastructure to all services within 50km of Dublin;

- the creation of a medium hop zone for all services between 50 and 75km of Dublin;

- the rolling out of leap card infrastructure at all services within a 50km radius of Dublin;

- a fairer level of daily fare capping for all commuters nationwide; and

- the establishment of a more equitable distance-based fare rate.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I second the motion.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, for returning to the Seanad. She has had a long afternoon in the Chamber but we are always pleased to see her. I am pleased my Fianna Fáil colleagues in the Seanad agreed to use our Private Members' time for this important debate on public transport and on extending the short-hop zone to 50 km, which would include the towns of Newbridge and Kildare and more - there are six towns that would be affected - in addition to extending a medium-hop zone to 75 km away from the centre. This would be important for my own town of Newbridge and for many other commuter counties around Leinster particularly in Meath and Wicklow.

The short-hop zone is Irish Rail's Dublin area network and within this network, an integrated smart Leap card can be used for rail travel. The zone extends north to Balbriggan on DART and northern commuter services, south to Greystones on the DART and southern commuter services, east to Howth, west to Kilcock on Longford commuter services, and west to Sallins and Naas on the Portlaoise commuter services. The Leap fare capping applies to this zone, meaning that passengers pay a maximum daily or weekly amount. This hop zone means commuters living within the zone who opt to use public transport can avail of huge savings when compared with commuters living just outside the zone boundary. In my view the short-hop zone is the correct policy and it has been very successful in attracting passengers and commuters to public transport and away from using private cars on the road. That is absolutely what we want.

However the boundaries simply do not go far enough. I thank the Oireachtas Library and Research Service for looking at some of the countries within the OECD for comparisons and for doing price analysis comparison in the particular areas we are talking about. When I make a comparison, if we were to extend to 50 km outside Dublin, and this could also be applied to Galway or Cork, the new areas that would be included would be Gormanston, Laytown and Enfield in County Meath, Newbridge and Kildare town in County Kildare, and Wicklow town in County Wicklow. Looking at the price variation in Sallins at present, which is the next stop before Newbridge, the price per kilometre is 26 cent and Newbridge is 51 cent. If we bring it further and look at Kildare, Monasterevin and Portarlington, it is 50 cent, 45 cent and 40 cent per kilometre, respectively. If we take the prices based on kilometre, the difference is between 26 cent and 51 cent for Newbridge and then it goes down for towns that are further. out. I would say that the people of Newbridge who use the train station are completely discriminated against in terms of price.

If we look at average fares for all passengers on the Dublin to Portlaoise commuter service, which is the one that comes through Sallins and Newbridge, at this present the single fare between Sallins and Naas is €4.75 but to Newbridge is €14.30. When comparing a fare of €4.75 with one of €14.30, it is simply not good enough. This motion seeks to improve the affordability metrics for commuters who reside outside the short-hop boundaries and to level the playing field for residents of the same area. For example, I mentioned my home town of Newbridge, County Kildare. Because Newbridge is not within the confines of the short-hop zone, commuters cannot benefit from the Leap card or fare arrangements. What happens is that a lot of people who live close to Newbridge station and could walk there get into their cars to drive to Sallins to avail of the cheaper fare and who can blame them? Irish Rail has extended the car park in Sallins to accommodate the extra cars and that causes chaos, with people going from Newbridge over a single bridge to Sallins in the morning. There are parents who drive their children to Sallins.Basically what happens is that many people, who live close to Newbridge station and could walk there, are getting into their cars and driving to Sallins to avail of the cheaper fair and who can blame them? What has Irish Rail done? It has extended the carpark in Sallins to accommodate the extra cars. This causes chaos for those travelling from Newbridge over the one bridge to Sallins in the morning. Parents are driving their children to Sallins. I appreciate there has been a reduction of 50% for young people under 23 years of age on trains but at the same time, there is still that huge price differential. While I absolutely support the extension of Local Link transport, which provides a bus service to link Newbridge with Sallins rail station, it is getting away from the issue. We need to have affordable fares from Newbridge station. To purchase a return ticket from Newbridge to Dublin Heuston this morning, with the 20% discount, would have cost me €16.90 and that is just from station to station and does not include the internal travel within Dublin - say to come to Leinster House from Heuston station. If I was travelling from Sallins within the short-hop zone, I could get from Newbridge to Heuston and back for €7.20. That is a 57% price differential for two stations that are 12.3 km apart. It is not fair and needs to be addressed. I know it is not just an issue in my own area. I am aware from conversations with Senators in my own party, such as Senator Casey, that this is happening on all fringes of the zone. This drastic price differential is forcing many commuters to drive themselves to a station within the short-hop zone to avail of the cheaper cards and the Leap card capping facility. This capping facility is very important because it also means you can travel on any different mode of public transport within the city centre on your Leap card. Without it, you are actually confined to just one mode: the 145 bus. That is not going to be suitable for everybody who arrives into Heuston station. I spoke to the National Transport Authority, NTA, about this and it brought up the price of installing new equipment and the fact that there would have to be somebody on duty all of the time. To be honest, the cost would be minimal. When it suits Irish Rail and the NTA to call Newbridge a commuter zone, for example, when they refuse to have the toilets open, they say the station is a commuter belt area which does not need toilets but then when it comes to looking for the extension of the short-hop zone, it is not treated in the same way. It is a crazy situation.

The Dáil and the Seanad passed the climate Act and Ireland is now on a legally-binding path to net-zero emissions no later than 2050. We are looking at a 51% reduction in emissions by the end of this decade and, as it stands, we have people driving single-occupancy vehicles past their local public train station to go to another station because we are crucifying them with fares. It makes absolutely no sense. At present, the short-hop zone applies to all rail travel on all Irish Rail services between destinations within 35 km - measured by track distance not point-to-point - of either of Dublin's two primary central rail stations, namely, Heuston or Connolly stations.

The motion I put forward is now Fianna Fáil policy and I thank our spokesperson on transport, Deputy O'Connor, and Deputy Barry Cowen, who looks after that policy area, for their support. We are calling for an extension of the short-hop zone to a 50 km radius and the establishment of a medium-hop zone within a 75 km radius which would include Portarlington. This would make a huge difference to the catchment area. In terms of population growth in Kildare, the amount of people who travel outside the county for work has grown considerably. To be able to support this group of people with public transport and fair fares would be hugely important. In many cases, it would cut down the need for a second car in families as well. For a town that has exploded in terms of population, this would be a huge success story.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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As a courtesy, I will tell the Senator she has six minutes left.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I rest my case.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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If we are to meet our climate targets, we need to make public transport more reliable and useable but, crucially, more affordable. With the cost of living gone up so much, people need to see that it is considerably cheaper to use public transport than to drive, if we want to take cars off the road. The NTA will soon introduce a fairer fares initiative and in a meeting I had with its officials, they said it would look at a per-kilometre cost both inside and outside the zone equally which is most welcome. I rest my case. I have already spoken about the differential between the kilometre-by-kilometre cost. That cost differential is absolutely unacceptable. I acknowledge the significant budgetary supports in budget 2023 such as the maintenance of the 50% reduction in public transport fares for young people, the extension to 15, 17 and 18-year-olds and mature students, and of course the 20% reduction all fares. It is really important we extend the short-hop zone and a medium-hop zone is established. I pay tribute in my closing remarks to the tireless advocacy of Jennifer Caffrey from Newbridge and a group of very dedicated committed commuters who keep the elected representatives in the area on our toes regarding this issue. They have done incredible work. The Minister of State has my full support and that of my party. I hope by the conclusion of this debate she will have the full support of this House. I will now hand over to my colleague, Senator Casey.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Senator Casey has a little in excess of four minutes.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I thank my colleague, Senator O'Loughlin, for introducing this motion. One strategy at the heart of Government is about getting as many people on public transport as we can. We see this as the future. If this is a Government aspiration, looking at the short-hop zone and its success for the people who live within that zone in terms of access to services but more importantly access to reduced fares, it must be extended beyond that zone. As my colleague said, we need to create a medium zone and maybe a wider zone if we are honestly talking about moving people onto public transport. Regarding the fares, Kilcoole is the last stop within the short-hop zone in County Wicklow. The fare is €3.90. Moving 10 km down the road to Wicklow town, you pay €10.45. That is a 165% price differential between the two. Moving on to Arklow, which is another 15 km away, the fare becomes €15.75. That is a 300% increase. If we provide the right fare structure and the right service, we will get people onto public transport. Cork is a good example. When the Cork city to Mallow fare of €3.90 was introduced, the number of passengers doubled almost immediately. If we honestly believe in public transport, it has to be a priority for Government to seriously look at this motion and consider introducing medium and long zones in public transport for people who are coming from commuting counties to work in Dublin. This aligns with my point of view in Wicklow because once you leave that short-hop zone there, not alone are you crucified by a lack of rail service but also by the lack of a bus corridor on the N11. Even our buses are getting stuck and blocked up in traffic. For commuters coming from Kilcoole or further south, access to Dublin is a nightmare. There are only two train services in the morning. The 133 Bus Éireann service and the Wexford Bus route, all have to go through the Devil's Glen which is carpark. From a Wicklow commuter's point of view, not alone do we need to improve access to public transport, we also need the people of Wicklow town, Rathdrum and Arklow to have fairness and equally with public transport users in Kilcoole and beyond. This is the reason I am fully supportive of this motion.Following my talks with Irish Rail and with the National Transport Authority, NTA, I believe we honestly need to look at the rail service from Greystones onwards. We need to stop talking about it and implement what needs to happen in relation to provision of dynamic passing lanes and double tracks and where we can put them so that we can put real rail infrastructure onto the tracks and get passengers to their work in Dublin, but for a fair fare the same as everybody else in the county has.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senators for the opportunity to speak to the Seanad about the importance of public transport. I am taking this debate today on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, who could not be here.

I am confident we can all agree that it is essential that Government continues to invest in the public transport network, and that we are supportive of the Government's commitment towards delivering an accessible, affordable and reliable public transport network throughout the country. I can confirm that Government is not opposing the motion which has been brought forward this evening. However, while the overall objective of this motion is broadly in line with the principles of this Government, there are some issues within the motion which require clarification, and which will be highlighted this evening.

As Senators will be aware, the Government is strongly committed to providing all citizens with reliable and realistic sustainable mobility options, and public transport plays a key role in the delivery of this goal. To support this key Government objective, in budget 2022, the Department of Transport secured approximately €538 million of funding for public service obligation, PSO, and Local Link services provided by State operators and under contract by the NTA this year. More recently, €563 million has been secured as part of the budget 2023 negotiations for the continued improvement of these services. In order to incentivise young people to use public transport, funding was secured for the introduction of a young adult card, which allows any person nationwide who is between 19 and 23 years of age to avail of a 50% discount on all PSO services and since September, also on participating commercial services. This initiative was recently widened to allow 16 to 18-year-old third level students to apply for the student Leap card so that they can also avail of the discount. Furthermore, in order to help combat the rising cost of living being experienced throughout the country, Government introduced a 20% average fare reduction on PSO services. The recently agreed budget 2023 helps support our transport objectives and is a further positive development for public transport passengers across the country. We have extended the 20% fare reduction on PSO services so that everyone will benefit until the end of 2023. Equally, we have extended the 50% reduction available for young adults on both PSO and commercial bus services until the end of 2023 and we are supporting new and enhanced bus and rail services throughout 2023 as well. These are all part of the €563 million funding package to support PSO services. That package is hugely significant in the context of providing accessible and affordable transport options.

With regard to the short hop zones, given the current cost-of-living crisis and various pressures on the Exchequer across the system, budget 2023 is focused on delivering the maximum benefit for all passengers. Funding was, therefore, directed toward the fare initiatives and funding has not been provided within the budget to extend the short hop zones or to create new medium hop zones. However, the issues raised by Senators are acknowledged, and the NTA is examining what needs to be done to ensure that the distance-based fare outside the short hop zone is in line with the distance-based fare inside the short hop zone to ensure that the fares will be more equitable. This work is ongoing as part of a national fares review for rail and bus services. When the Leap card infrastructure was first introduced in 2011, it was necessary for the NTA to define the scope and scale of Leap card implementation for budgetary and project management purposes. The boundary of the greater Dublin area short hop zone was determined to be the limit of the deployment of Leap-enabled equipment on rail services, such as pole mounted smart card validators and station gates. Leap ePurse is, therefore, used for rail journeys within the greater Dublin area, as well as Cork commuter rail services on the Cork-Cobh and Cork-Midleton lines, and is very effective. However, it is less-well suited to longer distance trips and, therefore, higher fares. The NTA and Irish Rail are currently developing a mobile App ticketing option that will offer a digital payment service to longer distance commuters. As part of this work, it is likely that fares for commuter journeys of up to 50 km from Dublin city will see reductions. While it is not possible at this stage to determine individual fares, a consistent methodology will be applied to ensure that fares increase appropriately in line with distance travelled beyond the 90-minute fare boundary and to remedy the disparities which currently exist outside the short hop zone. It is expected that these proposals will form part of budget 2024's considerations. The NTA is also considering a more equitable distance-based fare system for the commuter rail network generally. This work is ongoing as part of a national fares review for rail and bus services. There is a view that rather than introducing a simple extension to short hop zone boundaries and effectively merely move the issue further down the network, a more equitable approach would be to ensure that the distance-based fares approach outside of the current short hop zones is in line with the distance-based fares approach within the current short hop zones. I acknowledge the motion has also thought about this issue with its proposal to introduce a new layer of zonal ticketing - the medium hop zone - but the fundamental issue would still arise. The issue is simply moved around the network. In the interim, the NTA has implemented the Government's 20% cost-of-living average fares reduction as part of its latest fares determination, which will continue to apply in 2023 on all subsidised PSO public transport services. Young adult fares are also now available on all PSO services, providing a 50% fares reduction compared to equivalent adult fares.

The Government also has ambitious plans for public transport infrastructure nationwide. The programme for Government commits to a "fundamental change in the nature of transport in Ireland" and this is supported by the national development plan which has allocated €35 billion to maintain, enhance and improve transport infrastructure across the country over the next ten years. The substantial investment in transport in recent years and the planned ramping up of major projects such as BusConnects in every city, Connecting Ireland in rural areas, the Cork Area Commuter Rail Programme, DART+ and MetroLink means that the national public transport landscape will continue to transform for the better in the coming years. Under Project Ireland 2040, spatial planning and capital investment are being linked together in a meaningful way, while significant levels of investment are being put towards new public and sustainable transport initiatives, as well as major new road projects. Furthermore, capacity on the Kildare, Maynooth and northern rail lines is being increased by more than 30% compared to today. In fact, the new railcars to achieve this increase have already started to arrive and will be entering service next year. The third phase of BusConnects was rolled out in May this year and introduced two new northern orbital routes: the N4, connecting Blanchardstown to Point Village; and N6, connecting Finglas with Howth Junction. More recently, phase 4 of BusConnects commenced on 16 October with the introduction of G spine routes G1, G2 and Route 60, operated by Dublin Bus.

Regarding our rail network, the strategic rail review, which is being undertaken in co-operation with the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, will inform the development of inter-urban-inter-regional rail on the island of Ireland over the coming decades. The review will be one of the most significant reviews of the rail network on the island in many years and will provide a framework to develop a much-improved rail network in the years ahead. The Department of Transport expects the review to be completed by the end of this year. The review will set the type of strategic backdrop to rail investment in our regions and on our mainline network and it is expected to be completed by the end of the year. This review will also consider the potential scope for improved rail services along the various existing or future potential corridors of the network, and that scope will include the potential afforded by disused and closed lines. It will be one of the most significant reviews of the rail network on the island in many years. The Government has ambitious plans for our national rail network and has committed to an extensive programme of capital investment projects over the coming years. These plans include projects such as the DART+ programme, which will create a full metropolitan DART network for Dublin, with all lines linked and connected. When completed, the DART expansion programme will provide high frequency electrified services to Maynooth, Hazelhatch, Drogheda and Greystones. As well as upgrades to the railway infrastructure, DART+ includes the purchase of new electric and battery-electric train fleet, along with provision of new depot and stabling facilities.Further, the draft transport strategy for the greater Dublin area 2016-2035 specifically identifies new rail stations at Cabra, Glasnevin, Heuston West, Kylemore, Woodbrook, west of Sallins, west of Louisa Bridge and west of Maynooth. Kishoge station will also open in the short term as development of the Clonburris strategic development zone is realised. Additionally, the Cork area commuter rail programme involves development and enhancements to the rail network over approximately 62 km from Mallow through Cork city and on to Cobh and Midleton. This will include electrification and re-signalling across the three main routes, primarily over existing alignments and an application for planning permission for phase 1 of this programme was recently lodged. Meanwhile, the east coastal railway infrastructure protection projects involve the identification and implementation of infrastructural protection strategies for Iarnród Éireann infrastructure on the east coast of Ireland.

The Government is committed to providing a comprehensive national transport network which connects our people and places. For this reason, this Government has an ambitious vision to transform transport services and infrastructure nationwide, with one of the key priorities for public transport being the roll-out of the Connecting Ireland Rural Mobility Plan. For example, under Connecting Ireland, the NTA is proposing an overall increase of approximately 25% in rural bus services as part of this five-year plan. Hundreds of rural villages and areas will for the first time be served by a viable public transport link. Service improvements are already being rolled out under Connecting Ireland, with more planned before the end of this year. The Seanad will be aware that Connecting Ireland will significantly increase both the number of routes and the frequency of existing services right across the country. Connecting Ireland aims to enhance existing services and introduce new public transport services. Implementation of this programme will continue at the pace as outlined by the Government and in line with the funding and operational resources available.

This motion is generally in line with the principles of this Government and is broadly acceptable in a number of its aspects, particularly its call to move toward a more equitable distance-based fare rate for commuter rail. As I have outlined, however, certain specific elements of the motion are unlikely to feature as part of any future equitable distance-based fare system. I assure the Seanad that the Government fully recognises the hugely important role that public transport plays in all our lives and is acutely aware of the concerns raised concerning public transport this evening. These ambitious investment plans in the public transport sector over the coming years, such as Dart+, BusConnects and Connecting Ireland, will go a long way towards achieving these goals.

Significant progress has been made this year with fare reductions and funding has been secured as part of the 2023 budget negotiations for the continuation of these initiatives to the benefit of public transport users throughout the country. Furthermore, the work the NTA is currently undertaking on distance-based public transport fares will help to address some of the issues raised this evening. l firmly believe that with the work done in recent years and our ambitious plans for public transport, we will build a much more efficient framework for the provision of public transport in Ireland. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and Senators for their time and contributions this evening.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for that comprehensive response. Before I call Senator Boyhan, it is my great pleasure to welcome back one of our distinguished alumni, Deputy Neale Richmond, to the Visitors Gallery. Deputy Richmond now speaks for Fine Gael in Dáil Éireann and is distinguishing himself in that role. He is accompanied by an important segment of the future of this country, in the form of representatives of the Young Fine Gael branch from University College Dublin, UCD. It is good to have them here in the Houses of democracy seeing what we do. Hopefully, they will be somewhat impressed by us. I am also delighted that my son, Eoghan, is among them in the front row. They are all, though, individually and collectively welcome. Former Senator and now Deputy Neale Richmond, is particularly welcome to the Gallery. I call Senator Boyhan.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I join the Leas-Chathaoirleach in welcoming Deputy Richmond, a former Senator, and the students from UCD. Indeed, I will be mentioning Deputy Richmond in my few comments I prepared for today. I am delighted, therefore, that he is here and may still be here when I am finished. I will say a few quick things and it is all positive. It is just as well that the Leas-Chathaoirleach flagged that the Deputy was behind me.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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That was sound advice.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State and the Senators. The devil is in the detail though. At the end of that very comprehensive run-around of the national transport network, the Minister of State's conclusion said it all. She said that, "This motion is generally in line with the principles of this Government and is broadly acceptable in [terms of] aspects, particularly [in] its call to move toward a more equitable" system. The Minister of State then went on to talk about the creation of a new medium hop zone as being "unlikely to feature as part of any future equitable distance-based fare system". This is telling us the answer and this is the detail. When The Kildare Nationalistor whatever local paper decides to talk about this story we need to set it in this context.

I am very familiar with the stations in Portarlington, Monasterevin, Athy and Sallins. I am also familiar with the stations in Bray, Wicklow and Arklow, which we touched on earlier as well. Given we have had the benefit of the Minister of State reading her response into the Official Record, I wish to take up the detail not with the proposers of the motion but with her. I want to share my comments with the House as well. What I was going to refer to regarding Deputy Richmond, and what he has in common with Deputy Alan Farrell and, indeed, with the Tánaiste, Deputy Varadkar, is that they have all spoken in favour of having some sort of greater security on our public transport network. It will be recalled that I am a strong advocate of having a designated transport police system. We had this proposal in this House but it was rejected by the Government parties through a roll call vote, and the record stands.

Subsequently, however, we have had many issues concerning public safety. The Minister of State has, rightly, spoken about the Government's policy for public transport. I remind her now, in saying this again, that Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, published a report entitled Travelling in a Woman's Shoes. This referred to surveys and the real-life experiences of women in fear of travelling on our public transport network. This is the reality of the situation. This is one issue, and then we have the issue of disability. I am familiar, for instance, with the station in Newbridge, where people are having difficulty accessing a public toilet. I am not referring to people with disabilities, but they too are experiencing this problem. People are being told they have to get a key from somewhere and that someone will stand outside the door.

We are talking about public transport and safe public transport. We are talking about men and women being able to go around on public transport and not be abused verbally or physically, which is a common experience now. We have heard of terrible beatings, intimidation, slurs, hate speech and hate crimes occurring on our public transport, and yet we do not have a designated transport police force. I want to leave my focus on this issue with the Minister of State. We cannot make a decision today, but when we look back at some statements made by Deputies Alan Farrell and Richmond, and, indeed, by the Tánaiste, Deputy Varadkar, these show they have all come out in favour of this proposition. They are all in Government, but somehow it is not all adding up.

I will leave the Minister of State with these short messages. I want clean and safe toilets in the stations in Portarlington, Monasterevin, Athy, Sallins, Bray, Wicklow, Arklow and in every other station on our transport network. I want people, men and women, to be able to travel on our public transport safely. It is important to address this point. I took a look, strangely, at Fine Gael's website, and I acknowledge this with thanks to the party. I say this because, in the names of Deputy Phelan and Senator McGahon, the website refers to high parking costs. These words are presented in these clipped, tight, concise press releases on the Fine Gael website. References are made to the need for the high parking costs of rail commuters to be reduced in line with new lower public transport fares. Furthermore, it is stated that lower parking costs for rail commuters would encourage even more people to take trains, which will be beneficial both for the climate and concerning the cost-of-living perspective.

Many people across parties, therefore, are dealing comprehensively with transport policy and some of our issues in this area. It is much more complex than just the hop, stop and move aspect and various tariffs and rates. This is about how people, particularly in rural communities, get to the transport networks. They have to park their cars and pay their fees. The Minister of State will be familiar with this aspect as someone who represents a constituency that has both urban and rural elements. There are challenges in this regard.

I will leave it at this. I reiterate my call that we should have cross-party support for the creation of a designated public transport police to allow people to travel safely. Who is going to go out on the DART tonight at 8 p.m. to travel to Drogheda and feel safe doing so? Not too many people will, and this is the reality. Many people are forced to do it, but not many are comfortable doing it.I would like to think public toilets will be open for people with disabilities and everybody else in the meantime.

I also wish to address the issue of how, in rural communities, we are linking people from rural towns and villages into the network and how they can have a reasonable fee for parking and fares. I thank the proposers of this Private Members' motion. It has given us an opportunity to discuss the issues. Perhaps the Minister of State will feed them back or her officials may be listening in. I would appreciate it if she fed that back into the bigger debate.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Before I call Senator Buttimer, we thank the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and welcome the Minister of State, Senator Hackett.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the UCD students including the Leas-Chathaoirleach's son, Eoghan, who is a very fine young man pursuing his studies in UCD. I commend Senator O'Loughlin on this important motion. As a member of the Oireachtas transport committee, I recognise this issue is pertinent to the Senator in her area. In my work as transport spokesperson, in advance of tonight's motion and in general, I have engaged with many councillors and public representatives. The NTA, Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland were before the transport committee yesterday. We have a huge issue with public transport. If we are to have any semblance of credibility around that modal shift, there needs to be accountability and transparency in that accountability by the NTA, Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. My colleague, Councillor Sharon Tolan, has been campaigning for a long time on this issue. Our parliamentary party passed a motion unanimously at our meeting in June supporting the demands in the motion tonight. As for the transport strategy for the greater Dublin area, as has been well documented, it is sitting in the Department at the same time as thousands of people tonight who wish to use bus or rail continue to avoid it because of the continued disparity of train fares and the lack of Leap card technology. We heard yesterday at the transport committee that the real-time information was not working, as well as the issue of Leap cards.

The rail line is currently not fulfilling its full potential. Many commuters are choosing to either drive to a short-hop zone, SHZ, station, to avail of a more affordable ticket or remain in their cars, as Senator Boyhan referred to. Life is not as easy or simple as Senator Boyhan thinks and I am surprised, given that he is from a former Government party, the Progressive Democrats, that he recognises that we have the NTA and TFI working to develop and deliver public transport, but I will not get into that now.

As Meath County Council members will know, in a post-Covid-19 survey proposed by Councillor Tolan, 22,000 vehicles were going through Julianstown. Imagine the number of people that could be taken off the road. In advance of today, we spoke about Leap card facilities; they are very useful. Students hop on and off different modes of transport, including stations in the commuter belt area. I ask the Minister that Gormanston and Laytown be used as examples of short-hop zones and for the issue of reduced fare extension, with an eye to where there are boundaries. Laytown is 56 minutes from Connolly Station and therefore should be included. I thank Councillor Tolan, who has been a champion of that. I have been in constant dialogue as a member of the transport committee with my friend, Deputy Heydon, and the councillors in County Kildare who have raised the issue, as Senator O'Loughlin has tonight, about the inequality of commuters. To be fair, Senator Wall from County Kildare will recognise that in the areas of Newbridge, Kildare town and Monasterevin, there is a disparity with other stations around the county. As I had the privilege of spending five years in Maynooth, I know County Kildare reasonably well and have many friends there. I was recently in Maynooth University on the old campus. Maynooth town benefits from the issue of public transport, as an example. I make the point, as I am sure Senator Wall will and as Senator O'Loughlin eloquently and powerfully did, that there needs to be parity of fares and equality of treatment.

As the Leas-Chathaoirleach and Minister of State may expect me to do, I reference the issue of Cork, which the Minister of State mentioned in her speech. I commend Irish Rail on the Cork area commuter rail programme. It is an important project. It is not about Middleton or Mallow; it is also about the city and ensuring that, from Cobh to Middleton and going east to Mallow and the city, commuter rail is put in place. If there is to be any serious notion of tackling the issue of the modal shift or tackling the climate crisis we face, a city of the scale of Cork needs to have BusConnects working properly. While phase 1 is complete, we are now entering a critical phase of engagement. I appeal to the NTA that there needs to be ongoing dialogue to allay concerns and persuade people as there are huge issues around BusConnects in Cork, in terms of the first proposition. In fact, our Taoiseach complained about it and Fianna Fáil councillors on Cork City Council tabled a motion to the council about it. You cannot do one thing and be for something else. It is important in the context of the Cork commuter rail programme that we support the work of A.J. Cronin and his team in Cork. I am excited about public transport for Cork. We have seen the success of the 24-hour bus routes. We need to see Cork commuter rail commence in the city.

I will conclude on the issue of public transport police. I was at the National Bus and Rail Union, NBRU, conference in Cork. Senator Boyhan did not reference me in his contribution. I am on record in this House as being in favour of a dedicated public policing unit for public transport. Again, it is not as simple as Senator Boyhan would suggest in terms of its implementation as that entails the involvement of the Garda and the Department of Justice, as well as the issues of cost, training and recruitment. There needs to be a mind shift around the provision of public transport policing. We need a dedicated public transport corps because there are issues around transport, commuter and staff safety for the staff who work in our public transport system. I thank Senator O'Loughlin for this motion. It is important. It is about people. If we are talking about a modal shift and if we are asking people to invest in rural Ireland and areas outside of Dublin, then the Government should support and embrace this motion wholeheartedly. I commend Senator O'Loughlin on the motion.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Senator Buttimer. I was chairing the session when you raised the question of the transport police; I can attest to that.

On behalf of the Sinn Féin grouping, I call Senator Boylan.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Tá áthas orm go bhfuil an deis agam labhairt mar chuid den díospóireacht seo. The Sinn Féin Deputy for Kildare South, Deputy Patricia Ryan, has been raising the issue of the impact of the short-hop zones on people in her constituency for a long time. People are driving to Sallins in north County Kildare, as we have heard, to use more affordable public transport. We all know that as part of our climate targets and emissions reductions, one of the key ways we can address those in transport is to reduce the number of car journeys, especially short-distance journeys. We have a discrepancy, as the motion states, in the pricing structure of public transport. It is incentivising people to get into their cars and drive part of the journey to where public transport is significantly cheaper instead of encouraging people to take public transport for the entire journey. We all agree with the principle of this motion. It is a fantastic idea. Anything that can encourage people out of their cars and reduce costs for them has to be welcomed. It is a straightforward measure that should be implemented.

Looking on from the Opposition, however, we have to question what the point is in moving a Seanad motion about the issue. We can all stand up and make speeches but the budget was announced only a few weeks ago. There were no proposals from Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or the Green Party around the short-hop zones. Sinn Féin allocated €2 million to extending short-hop zones in our alternative budget. Nothing was allocated at the time, when it mattered, when we could have done something about the issue being raised tonight. It is a pattern we see repeated when it comes to the public transport policing unit, as others have said. Fianna Fáil made a big song and dance about calling for the measure - I remember them being out on the plinth having a press conference. When it comes down to doing something about it in the budget, however, it is nowhere to be seen. Sinn Féin did not just call for public transport policing, we also allocated for it in our alternative budget.

Another thing Sinn Féin called for and allocated resources for in our alternative budget was the accelerated roll-out of the connecting Ireland rural bus scheme. We also allocated for the Navan rail line and the western rail corridor. Meanwhile, in this motion, there is very little for most of the country. It is a relatively straightforward measure for a few limited examples close to Dublin in counties Kildare and Wicklow.As I said, while we welcome the measures in this motion, we would like to see more talk in the parliamentary party meetings with the Ministers and at the time when we can deliver the changes to see action on this, rather than when we are here using Private Members’ time instead.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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This is a debating chamber, by the way. We are entitled to put forward motions for discussion.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Nobody is saying you are not. It is about the effective use of time.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Wall.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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There are many things the Senators could bring forward.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Wall, without interruption.

Mark Wall (Labour)
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I thank all of the Fianna Fáil Senators, in particular Senators Fiona O'Loughlin and Pat Casey, for bringing forward this very important Private Members’ motion, which is very welcome. The extension of the short hop zone to Newbridge station in my county of Kildare is an issue that I and Labour Party colleagues in Newbridge and south Kildare have been working on for some time. The campaign has included all of the rail stations in this part of the State. Indeed, as part of our campaign for a so-called “fare” deal for south Kildare commuters, I, along with members of the Newbridge branch of the Labour Party, met with Anne Graham, CEO of the National Transport Authority, NTA, in 2018 to hand over 7,000 signatures from the campaign we have run and are continuing to run. At that meeting and in much correspondence since, we have been told the NTA is responsible for setting fares, and indeed every piece of correspondence from the Government has stated that. However, in the absence of appropriate Government funding to fund any fare reductions, we are continually told the hands of the NTA are tied.

That argument was also used with my colleagues and it has already been referenced in this debate. My colleague, Deputy Sean Sherlock, started a similar campaign back in 2016 to include Mallow train station in the Leap card fares, thereby reducing fares from that station in Cork as well. After Deputy Sherlock succeeded in his campaign this year by adding Mallow to the Leap card fares, the evidence told its own story. Passenger numbers have almost doubled from the station. From May 2021 to the beginning of September 2021, they stood at 44,000, whereas the same figure for this year sees an almost doubling of that figure to 77,000 commuters.

I welcome the creation of a focus group by Newbridge Community Development within recent months to advocate for an extension, as I have said before in this House. Indeed, I and colleagues have had numerous conversations with its spokesperson, Jennifer Caffrey, on sharing information and updates from the numerous times I have raised this matter in this House, and my colleagues have supported those calls in the Lower House while raising the same issue in their areas.

The fact remains, as has been said many times today, that hard-pressed commuters bypass Newbridge and other Kildare stations and drive daily to Sallins station in Naas to avail of the short hop fares. Who can blame them? Many people who I still correspond with on this matter are saving up to €200 a month by choosing to get into their cars each morning and drive past their local stations in favour of stopping at Sallins station and availing of the short hop zone fares. The result, as anyone who uses the M7 will know, is that it has simply become a car park. Most mornings, the traffic stops at Kill and commuters’ cars crawl all the way to Newlands Cross, a journey of ten minutes that is now taking 40 minutes-plus each morning.

This is not just a commuter crisis; it is also a climate one. I agree with the wording of the motion that it is necessary to incentivise greater use of public transport to meet the climate targets as set out in the climate action plan. Currently, the cost is prohibiting many commuters who can use the trains to get to their work and appointments and they are using their cars instead, adding to emissions. In August of this year, my colleague, Deputy Ged Nash, received another reply from the NTA regarding his campaign for fare reductions towards Drogheda. In one of the latest replies from the NTA, the CEO states the authority recognises there is a higher base fare outside the short hop zone. The reply, like previous ones, states the work on examining what needs to be done is ongoing and the authority will be examining the fare forgone cost in an effort to introduce a more equitable system. Most importantly, once again, the reply concludes by saying this will then be presented to the Government for funding at the next budgetary cycle.

Before I finish, I support the calls by Senators Fiona O'Loughlin and Victor Boyhan about public toilets on the transport network. We have all been contacted by commuters about train stations, particularly Newbridge, and it is not just the public toilets in Newbridge but also the infrastructure. It has taken weeks for that to be solved. It is unbelievable in this day and age that we do not have public toilets on our transport systems, for example, at Newbridge, and that is replicated in many more stations throughout south Kildare and on to Portarlington.

In supporting this very important Private Members’ motion, I once again thank the Fianna Fáil Senators for introducing it. We need to be clear that the NTA has continually said it will not be moving to extend the short hop zone to the stations mentioned in this motion until it receives funding from Government. That funding, of course, could be provided by the Government now. I was told very recently - in fact, yesterday - that the NTA will have to act on getting its report ready faster and, more importantly, will have to reduce the fares if it is provided with such funding. Those hard-pressed commuters I spoke about earlier need the funding to be provided. The simple fact is that, as was shown in Mallow, if we reduce fares, commuters will use the trains.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I am delighted the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, is here because I think a Green Party Minister will actually make this happen. I thank my Fianna Fáil colleagues for putting forward this motion, which is very important for many colleagues in this House. I felt it was so important that, a number of weeks ago, I contacted Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour Party and all other Senators in this House who are affected by this motion to see if we could get together collaboratively and work to make this a tangible goal and make it happen.

I welcome the motion. The 50 km and 70 km zones look very pretty but I wonder if that is practical. I would certainly be happy to see it happen but we are talking about hitting Carlingford with that, and a few more kilometres and the medium hop zone would actually be in the North of Ireland. The Department should conduct research to see where the need really is for these services. I know that Gormanstown in County Meath has the infrastructure to handle much higher use of train services, and the need is there too. We could be stretching up as far as Laytown and I know that Newbridge down south would benefit greatly from being included in the short hop zone.

The pricing structure must be right, however. I know that many people travel to Balbriggan from counties Meath and Louth because of the fares. A Dublin to Balbriggan return is €8.90 whereas a Dublin to Drogheda return is €19.50, which is 122% more. Dublin to Gormanstown is €15.10 and Dublin to Laytown is €16.90 return. If people are living in Meath, it costs 100% more in fares, and if they are living in Louth, it is 122% more, so it is practical to include these areas in the short hop zone.

My colleague spoke earlier about Julianstown. More than 25,000 cars pass through Julianstown every day, with most travelling to the train station in Balbriggan and with commuters parking in Balbriggan and getting the train there. Some of them are parking up in Gormanstown and they are not parking in the car park there but along the side of the road, which is a problem for the residents living on the station road. When I was on the council, the cost of public parking near these stations was a massive issue. It is €30 to €35 per month and people cannot afford that on top of the fares. It is something we need to look at and the price structure also needs to be looked at. The Meath and Louth area would definitely welcome these short hop zone fares.

There are other issues I want to raise. The fact we do not have a train or tram from the airport into Dublin city centre is unbelievable. It is ridiculous at this stage that, as a First World, European nation, we do not have a train or tram route from our national airport into our capital city. It is a complete anomaly when we look at almost all other European capitals. I understand no Government wants to do it because of the cost and because it will have to disrupt business, traffic and all of that, but, realistically, it should be done so a way around that must be found.

I spoke earlier about parking charges at stations.Not everyone lives within walking distance of a station, so we should not be punishing people for driving to stations and using public transport.

Most people do not want to drive for 45 minutes or an hour, getting stuck in traffic on the way, in order to get to work. They would love to take the train. We need to encourage that. We can do so by making public transport physically and financially accessible, safe and pleasant. The fare reductions across public transport have been wonderful. It will be interesting to see the data relating to that, and any increase in people using public transport. I would love to see more innovative policies to make our public transport networks more attractive to users and prospective users. If Fianna Fáil is going to make them affordable, maybe it is the Green Party that will make them first class. Exchequer funding would be well spent if that can be done. I thank my colleagues in Fianna Fáil for bringing forward this motion.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank my colleagues for their support for the motion. That support seems to be pretty much cross-party in nature. Other issues were raised during the debate, but, in framing this motion, I felt it was important to stick to one matter because public transport is so complex and there is so much we need to do, particularly in the context of connecting rural communities. I really believe that extending the short hop zone and including a medium hop zone is important.

The Minister of State stated that she is generally in agreement and that looking at fairer fares is really important. I do not really care what this would be called. It does not need to be called an extension of the short hop zone. It could be called fairer fares, better transport or affordable transport. The name does not matter; it is the principle that matters. From what the Minister of State said, I feel the Government is in agreement with the principle of ensuring that the fare per kilometre is the same outside the short hop zone as inside it. That is what we all want and that is key.

I wish to respond to the Sinn Féin assertion that nothing for public transport was included in the budget. It is significant that the Government extended the 50% student fare to 16-, 17- and 18-year-olds and full-time mature students in the budget. This is something I fought hard for. I have heard Senators state that it was most unfair that it just catered to 19- to 23-year-olds. The extension of the 50% student fare and the 20% for everybody is significant. As a result, it is unfair to say that public transport was not fairly treated in the context of the budget; it was. Obviously, we can do more and we need to do more. The fact that the NTA is examining fairer fares gives me hope.

The reason I put in the medium hop zone is because simply by moving the radius to 50 km and leaving it there, which, apparently, is Fine Gael policy, just pushes the can to other areas and again, leaves councillors and public representatives on the fringes of those areas to start the fight all over again about extending it. I felt that the creation of a medium hop zone between 50 km and 75 km was a logical accompaniment to that. Obviously, if this is taken on board, the NTA would do its own research into it.

A comment was made to the effect that I was looking at a certain part of the country. I make no apology for that. The areas within Dublin, Kildare, Wicklow and Meath are under significant pressure because they are beside the capital city with regard to jobs, etc. Due to the cost of housing, many people have moved to our counties and, of course, they are very welcome. From 1996 to 2016, Kildare experienced population growth of 64.8%. During this period, the population in Newbridge grew by 189%. That tells a significant story. Newbridge is now home to more than 10% of the population of Kildare, with further population growth of 25% expected by 2026. The population of the town has exploded with much of it due to people who moved to Newbridge because they could not afford to buy a house in Dublin. They are returning to Dublin by car for work, so we need to ensure that we facilitate this type of public transport.

I hope the Minister of State is supportive of my motion because it does align with Green Party policy in terms of putting funding into public transport, taking people off the roads and ensuring that they do not have second cars. In some instances, people may not need a car at all if they live close to public transport. That is what we hope to achieve by this. I am very heartened by the cross-party support for the motion. This is Fianna Fáil policy, and I hope to see it incorporated into Government policy very soon.

John McGahon (Fine Gael)
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When is it proposed to sit again?

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.