John McGahon (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have tabled this matter after the Minister of State's recent visit to Dundalk. Two weeks ago she kindly came to County Louth and went to Coláiste Chú Chulainn and the CBS primary school. She met the principal of Coláiste Chú Chulainn, Thomas Sharkey, and she also met Maria Doyle, a teacher in the CBS primary school. Mr. Sharkey and Ms Doyle made some key points that day and I wanted to bring them back to this House.

There is a real fear among the school community and parents in County Louth about the provision and allocation of school places for children with autism going into secondary schools. That fear is not based on anecdotes or what somebody might have said to somebody else. The fear is based on the data on the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, website. North of a line from Kilsaran in County Louth to the Meath-Monaghan border, there are 24 primary schools which have 24 special classes with six pupils in each class, which is 144 students in total. Half of the geographical county lies north of that line and includes the town of Dundalk containing 42,000 people. That area has 24 special classes in primary schools. However, the eight secondary schools have only three special classes, accommodating 18 pupils. In the coming years we will need to get 144 students into 18 spaces. The Minister of State officially opened two of them. Two of them are in Coláiste Chú Chulainn and the third is in St. Vincent's school.

The issue is about ensuring we have capacity and availability in secondary schools in the north Louth and Dundalk area to accommodate the primary school pupils in special classes. Families are sitting around the kitchen table trying to make decisions on which secondary school their children might go to. I know the Minister of State agrees with me on this because we have discussed it. It is unfair and wrong that a family should have to make a decision about where to send one child and not another based on the diagnosis one child might have. Children have an absolute right to go to the same school as their siblings, neighbours or friends. We want to see capacity in all those eight secondary schools in Dundalk and north Louth.

What will be done for September 2023? The 18 spaces in those three schools are already full for next September. I personally know of six pupils who will need one of those 18 spots, but it is oversubscribed. Those six students will be without a space for September 2023. What will be done in the short term, by September 2023, to try to accommodate those extra students? What will be done in the long term for the years from 2024 to 2028 to ensure the 144 pupils currently in primary education have a space when they reach secondary school?

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Senator for the invitation to visit Dundalk and Louth. When I visited Coláiste Chú Chulainn, I was extremely impressed by the principal, Mr. Sharkey, and the incredible work he has done in opening two special classes in the school. I was also impressed by the incredible work by Maria Doyle and Eileen Harte in the CBS primary school. I also went to St. Colmcille's in Tullydonnell to see the four autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classes and met the principal, Anne Marie Forde. There are incredible examples in these schools of the work they are doing in mainstream inclusion but also in opening special classes, which is something that, as Minister of State with responsibility for special education, I acknowledge and encourage. I thank the Senator for his interest in this extremely important area. The issues he has raised are also important.One of the measures I managed to secure in this particular budget and budget 2023 was extra resources for the National Council for Special Education, NCSE. The staffing levels in the NCSE had not changed since 2004 or 2007. Now we managed to secure a €13 million payment to the NCSE. In those circumstances it will be able to employ an additional 160 staff members, who are advisers and special educational needs organisers, SENOs. SENOs are critical when talking about that communication piece with parents and families through the schools, whether it is primary or post-primary, in terms of obtaining an appropriate placement for their child.

The Senator referred to education being a right. It is a right for every child in this country, regardless of whether they have an additional need or not. The first thing we have to do, and it is enshrined in the Constitution, is to find an appropriate placement for the child. The second thing we try to do then is to try to find a placement in the locality for that child. That has proved to be a challenge, not just for children with additional needs but other children as well who have to travel on buses to obtain a school they can attend because their local school may be fully booked up. It is a particular challenge for children with additional needs because they are more vulnerable. That is something I am increasingly aware of and something the Ombudsman for Children mentioned in his report in terms of travel, but in the first instance, we want to make sure every child has an appropriate placement.

In Louth this year, as we know, all children with additional needs were catered for. We have 69 special classes in total in Louth at the moment - 54 in primary and 15 in post-primary. There were 13 new classes for September 2022 - 11 primary and two post-primary. That is a significant addition to what was there originally. The Senator asked in particular about the future and forward planning. When I came into this role, which was specially created, so I am the first Minister with responsibility for special education, we had a wide look at the forecasting models already in existence and at how we could improve these, ameliorate planning and make sure there was that proper sharing of data between the Department, the schools and the NCSE. We have a new forecasting model in place which is over a five-year-period. The Senator is quite right. I do not have the particular data but I take him at his word. I am not sure is he talking about 18 classes or 18 spaces because, there is obviously a difference.

John McGahon (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Eighteen places. Three classes.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a difference there. If there are 144 students in primary school at the moment and we assume the majority of those will be going on to post-primary, we have to make sure we have the placements for them. The NCSE is aware of that. Mr. John Kearney, who is the new CEO, will be able to recruit extra staff to implement that and use our forecasting model to be able to anticipate where there is capacity in local schools and how we can provide for them. We have the new legislation as well which can assist us with that.

John McGahon (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State. That is very reassuring, especially when she mentioned Mr. John Kearney, who I know the Minister of State has said will facilitate a visit to Dundalk in the future. One point I will make is that the extra staff are very welcome and will provide a real ability to cater for these children however there is an issue of actual physical capacity. By that I mean there are a number of secondary schools in Dundalk that have been secondary schools for 100 to 150 years. They are right in the middle of the town centre and it is very difficult, because of the physical nature of where they are, for them to expand. We need to do some work with the building unit in Tullamore to try to see what we can do for those types of schools in large provincial towns such as Dundalk that are physically boxed in and do not have the space to expand. I am glad to see there is forward planning but the point is we have 18 spaces in this whole part of north Louth and we have 144 children. I am really heartened to hear that the Minister of State is going to work with me over the next couple of years to ensure those 144 children will have a proper space when they move to second level education.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It goes without saying that there are, and will be, conversations we are not aware of that are ongoing with schools in Louth and in the environs and that would not be publicly available. Those children may already be catered for, but that is something on which I can update the Senator. One of the things we want to do is to make sure that gap between primary and post-primary is closed, not only in Louth but throughout the country, so that nobody falls off a cliff and there is an appropriate placement for them to continue on with their education. We have the legislation in place now in terms of section 37A but also section 67, where the NCSE can designate a child to a school if needs be. It is important to say that the majority of places are opened without recourse to the section 37A legislation, but it is there if we need it. There is also the additional accommodation scheme whereby the Department, through the planning and building unit, can provide extra funding to reconfigure the school itself to provide that extra capacity where it is needed, as long as the school is willing to do so. I thank all of the schools and I mentioned some in the Senator's constituency and locality earlier. I thank other schools as well that volunteer as it goes a huge way to helping these children with additional needs, which ultimately is what this is all about.