Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We are resuming on amendment No. 1 in the name of Senator Craughwell. When we adjourned on the previous occasion, on 5 October 2021, the Minister of State was in possession. Does the Minister of State want to resume her contribution or does she have anything further that she wishes to add at this point?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I should be asking Senator Craughwell if he would like to resume his contribution, but he is not here. I believe Senator Doherty wishes to make a contribution.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I wish to talk about the groupings list. As far as the groups here in front of me are concerned, the proposal is that we will be discussing amendments Nos. 1 and 2 in conjunction with each other. I wish to object to that. They do not have anything to do each other; they are entirely separate.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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According to the note I have, and the Senator knows how the chairing works, amendments Nos. 1 and 2 are related and amendment No. 2 is consequential on amendment No. 1. The note states that amendments Nos. 1 and 2 may be discussed together by agreement, but if we do not have agreement, we do not have to discuss them together. We can discuss them sequentially. The note I have states that amendment No. 2 is consequential on amendment No. 1.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I do not believe that having a charter for licence holders is consequential on having a meeting for licence holders on an annual basis. I would like to propose that we separate that grouping and discuss-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not have an objection. If the House is happy to deal with amendments Nos. 1 and 2 separately, we will deal with them that way. Is that agreed? Agreed. We we were dealing with amendment No. 1 in the name of Senator Craughwell. Does anyone want to speak any further on amendment No. 1?

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Acting Chairperson to indulge me for a moment, because I was not here on Second Stage. I wish to talk about the merits of the Bill very briefly. The purpose of this Bill arose from a directive from the European Union on the basis that our regulatory system was combined with the part of the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, that looks after the regulatory standards and the regulations that all of our licence holders have to work under, and the commercial division which its revenue sources were derived from. It made no sense to the European Union to have both of those under the same umbrella. That is where the directive came from that gave rise to the bulk of this Bill.

The Bill is really welcome, but I must say that if putting one part of the regulatory authority in one room and another part in another room, when we still have exactly the same source of funding, appeases that directive and the concerns that were raised by the European Union, I have to question the directive. However, it is where it is, and a huge amount of work has been done by the Minister of State to bring forward this Bill. While I am supportive of the Bill as it stands in the main, I have huge concerns about what is absent from the Bill. The reason we are here, and the reason there has been such a delay in reconvening Committee Stage of the Bill since the last time the Minister of State was here, is because of the considerable unease and unrest among the Members of this House and all of those who own the licences that operate the aviation industry in this country. We have an aviation industry that is absolutely crying out to be regulated. It is pointing out at every possible turn and opportunity what is wrong with regard to the safety and the lack of regulation in this country and what needs to be done to address that safety and lack of regulation. It has painstakingly highlighted and provided details of the amendments to the legislation that it would like to see its own members be adjudicated under and be subject to.

The course of lobbying has gone literally full circle around the House, with the Minister meeting those licence holders yesterday evening. As Members of the Oireachtas, we have met the CEO-designate of the IAA. We have met the Minister of State and her officials on numerous occasions. I have met Rose Hynes, who is the chair of the IAA. We have attended these meetings to absolutely and fundamentally make the case that this is a most bizarre situation whereby an industry is crying out for regulation and more rules for it to be governed under, but the officials in the Department, the Minister and, most disturbingly, the regulator think we do not need those rules. I am here today to talk about various sections of the Bill and different amendments. I will have objections to further groupings of amendments as we go along.

The first amendment today, which is in my own name and those of my colleagues, concerns the licence holder forum. The purpose of this meeting is absolutely sacrosanct-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We are just dealing with amendment No. 1 at the moment. Is that okay?

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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Okay, sorry. The issue of peer support is perhaps even more important than that of the licence holder forum. At one of the meetings we had with the Minister, we were given a glimpse of hope that peer support would be addressed. The recognition of how important who the peer actually is, and who she he or she is chosen by, is paramount to the success of this programme. In order for any issues in this industry to be brought to bear so that they can be assisted, helped, alleviated and dealt with, peer support and the programmes that have been initiated by some of our aviation airlines over the last number of years are hugely important. However, they only work when operators in the industry feel comfortable and confident with giving information pertaining to themselves, their ability to do their job or any of the things that are hindering them. There are many such issues in every single walk of life and in all of our jobs.

Fatigue is probably one of the biggest issues in the airline industry. Those working in the industry are not unique in suffering from all of the other afflictions that every other worker suffers from, including marital difficulties, problems with their children, mental health issues, alcoholism, addiction to drugs, or just being exhausted and over-rostered. There is a myriad of things that make this industry incredibly unsafe.A peer support programme only works in a situation where, if I feel so vulnerable that I am not able to do my job, I can trust the person I go to and tell him or her I need help with something that is inflicting pain on my career, income and ability to do my job. Of most importance is that I be able to trust that peer, that there be confidentiality in our engagement and that I get the assistance, guidance and action I need.

The single greatest problem with the peer support programme as it is at the moment, and obstructed by the current regulator, is that the airlines appoint the peers. There is a perception within all of our airlines that the appointment is made by management on behalf of management to ensure that, if anything happens, management will be able to react to it. I made the plea to the CEO designate that a peer should not be chosen by management because that immediately creates mistrust, and if there is no trust, then the whole engagement falls apart because there will be no engagement. His answer was that, since the airline would have to pay for the requisite action and take immediate steps, the organisation had to appoint the peer. That is a fundamentally flawed argument.

While I appreciate that airlines will have their own peers and their support programmes will not be the exact same as one another's, the success or death of this will come down to trust. No matter how much money Aer Lingus or Ryanair puts into its programme or how much training it gives Regina Doherty to be the peer, if the person who is selected is not trusted, the airline will never get the information that will allow it to make adaptations and provide the necessary assistance to ensure that the person can do his or her job effectively and manage the difficulty, be it fatigue, alcoholism, a problem with drugs, mental health issues or any of the afflictions that are prevalent in today's life. If there is not that trust, there will be no information and we will be carrying on blindly. Although we will have this peer support programme and it will tick a box wonderfully, people will be left scratching their ears wondering why no one is coming forward saying that he or she has a problem in his or her marriage, a problem with a few pints too many on a Sunday or whatever myriad of issues there may be. If there is no trust, there will be no peer support programme. All of the palaver from the IAA will amount to nothing because the peer will not get the information if there is no trust.

Given the context of the amendment we have put down, it is fundamental that a peer be selected by his or her peers. It does not make sense otherwise. It is vital that each airline be instructed that-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator still speaking to amendment No. 1 or amendment No. 3?

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I am still speaking to amendment No. 1. I will get to the rest of it in a second.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. It is just that I did not see the Senator's name on amendment No. 1. She stated: "we have put down".

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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We all own this legislation, to be fair. When it is passed, it will be passed in all our names.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is true.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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If it is passed unamended, we will all take the blame for this legislation.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I just wanted to be clear. The Senator's name is on amendment No. 3, which we will reach shortly, or not so shortly, depending.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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That is not a problem.

I cannot overestimate the impact of ignoring this plea. I will give the floor to my colleagues with a view to contributing again. If we establish a support programme that has no trust, it will be as good as having no support programme at all.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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This is Senator Craughwell's amendment, so I will allow him to contribute again if he wishes. I will then allow anyone else to contribute before reverting to the Minister of State.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I would like to contribute. I have a rather unusual request-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I was going to call on the Senator first but he was not here at the start.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I appreciate that. I was here, but I was called away. I am back now, though, and that is all that matters.

I wish to make an unusual request. I have not discussed it with any of my colleagues. In light of a letter that I received today from the Irish Air Line Pilots' Association, IALPA, a request that I have submitted to the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications, and the fact that the report on Rescue 116 was not published until after this Bill had commenced in the Dáil, we should suspend any further debate on it today, allow the committee to meet Captain Evan Cullen and listen to his concerns, and send the Bill back to the committee so that it can deal with the issues that we have raised by way of amendment. The Bill should not be passed as it stands.

I ask one of my colleagues to second this proposal.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I second it.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am taking the Senator's request as I find it. The Order of Business has been agreed by the House, so we would need an amendment to it. The Leader of the House is present. If the Chair had a proposal from her that the Order of Business be changed, so be it, but I do not have such a proposal yet, so I can only deal with the business as proposed.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I apologise to the Acting Chairperson and the Leader for dropping this on people right now, but a significant amount of information is coming our way. We are talking about qualified pilots who have concerns that they have raised with Members of all parties and none. Most of us are fully in agreement with the pilots. We are debating a very serious situation. We are dealing with people's lives and how our airlines will be dealt with. I apologise to the Leader for not advising her in advance, but this is a dynamic situation. It has been moving-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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To be fair, I am neutral while in the Chair but I am also a member of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications. I got that letter.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I appreciate that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I left a private committee meeting to come here to chair this session. I am aware of the letters, the requests and so on. I can only deal with the order of the day as it is proposed. If an amendment to it is proposed and the House deals with it, so be it, but it needs to come from-----

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I apologise, but I am asking the Acting Chairperson whether I can amend the order at this stage and suspend the Bill for further discussion. I am sure that some of my colleagues might second that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure whether the Senator can, but I believe the Leader can propose a change to the order if she so chooses, but that is a matter for her.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am sorry for doing this at such short notice, but we need time and I do not believe we should proceed today.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Leader wish to contribute?

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I wish to be clear. I apologise but, without telling the Acting Chairperson how to do his job, the Leader would never propose an amendment to the order. He or she would accept an amendment to it. The amendment would need to be proposed by a Member to me. I would then either accept it or not accept it.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It has been the case previously. In the previous Seanad, the then Leader would often come to the Chamber with a proposal to amend the order.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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Really?

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Regularly. That does happen and has happened.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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Has it happened that the Leader has amended his or her own order?

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Doherty is the Leader of the House. As the Leader, if she makes a proposal, it is more likely to be secured because, generally speaking, the Leader of the House is more likely to command a majority than anyone else.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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If Senator Craughwell proposed his amendment to the Leader and she accepted it, that would also be an acceptable mechanism.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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May I take guidance?

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I have just been advised that what I thought was correct is correct. Procedurally, the Leader of the House has to propose an amendment to the Order of Business. If the Leader does so and the House accepts it, the order of the day will be changed.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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May I clarify what the request is?

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Through the Chair. Senator Craughwell might outline to me what he would like the Leader to propose.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am asking the Leader to suspend any further discussion on this Bill until the committee has met IALPA, which I believe will happen in the next few days. That will give us a chance to listen to IALPA's side of the argument. I apologise to the Minister of State. Her time is very-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It might be fair to the Minister of State to allow her to make a contribution before we take the Leader's amendment, if that is agreeable.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I apologise to the Minister of State for giving such short notice but I only had conversations with IALPA this morning. I had only-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is a fluid situation. Would the Minister of State like to contribute on the matters outlined so far?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I hear the Senator's concerns. I have had a great deal of engagement with Oireachtas Members. There has also been a large amount of consultation. I listened to the Senator's concerns regarding IALPA, which I met yesterday. Its voice and its amendments, which are being tabled here, have been well aired. I came to the Seanad today in good faith to discuss these amendments, which Senators are tabling as part of this deliberative Committee Stage. That is what I told IALPA I would do at our meeting last night. I will endeavour to work with Senators and debate Committee Stage. That is what our role is. Obviously, the business of the Seanad is up to the Seanad, but I am here to debate these amendments and work with colleagues. The rest is in the House's hands.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. As a former Senator, she is more than familiar with the workings of this House.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I understand what the Minister of State is saying. However, by bringing this back to the joint committee, we will be bringing it to both Houses.There are Deputies who did not have the opportunity when this Bill was going through their House to take on board the recommendations from the report on the Rescue 116 incident in particular. We can be sure the Department did not come out well from the report on the Rescue 116 incident.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is fair for me to make this point as the Acting Chairperson. Without any suggestion that we do not follow the course of action outlined, there are Government amendments proposed for the legislation by the Minister of State and they will, most likely, be accepted by the House. It would then go back as amended legislation to the Dáil and its Members would be dealing with it at a future point.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That should be a matter for the committee.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It does not take away from the Senator's point that it might be useful for the committee to discuss this further. I am just saying it is not the case that Deputies will not have the opportunity to discuss this legislation again. They definitely will.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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If this goes back to the committee, not only will committee members have access to all the actors involved but there would be an opportunity for all agencies involved to come in and make their points. It would be up to the committee to decide whether it would recommend changes. I will stick to my guns on this and ask that the debate be adjourned for another day.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I have been advised, although I would have been aware of this anyway, that the Bill is on Committee Stage and not in pre-legislative scrutiny. If it goes to the committee, it would be on Committee Stage and Senators would not have a role at that point. With a pure Committee Stage, it would go to the select committee.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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As the Bill is on Committee Stage in the Seanad, it cannot be sent to the select committee. It must complete this Stage before it goes anywhere. The committee has the power to recall the Bill if it wishes. The very most on offer with regard to my power today is a suspension of the debate to allow the hearings that are taking place to finish. We can come back and pick up proceedings from there. The Bill is currently on Committee Stage here in the Seanad and will stay at that point until it is completed.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does Senator Boylan wish to comment at this point?

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I support Senator Craughwell's proposal to suspend the debate because the contents of the circulated letter are deeply concerning. I am a member of the transport committee and one of the amendments being sought by IALPA relates to licence holders' forums and the right to be heard and be part of the conversation. The very first point made in the letter is that the Minister of State only met representatives of IALPA last night for a half hour. There has not been proper consultation. Many of us as elected representatives have been very frustrated trying to make the case for IALPA so it is disappointing they only got a meeting with the Minister of State last night for only half an hour. The group is bringing very significant concerns. It is worth putting them on the public record.

The air accident investigation report on R116 was published after the Air Navigation and Transport Bill 2020 passed through initial stages in the Oireachtas. IALPA believes, therefore, that representatives of the Dáil and particularly those on the Select Committee on Transport and Communications did not have the opportunity to scrutinise the Bill through the prism of that accident report. IALPA indicates that when it raised that matter with the Minister of State, she deferred to her departmental official, who replied that the Department had sight of the draft final R116 accident report and decided on necessary amendments arising from that. The report references a lack of technical expertise in the Department, so although it proposes to make amendments, it does not have the technical expertise to do so, according to IALPA.

These are very serious concerns and the only proper course of action now is to suspend our consideration of the Bill and allow people time to reflect on the concerns raised in the letter to the committee. The committee should hear from IALPA before the Bill goes any further.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does Senator Dooley wish to comment?

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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In light of what appears to be cross-party consensus that we must put a little more time and effort into this, I support the principle of the suspension being proposed, taking into account what the Minister of State has said. We do not want to in any way frustrate the work she is doing. There is an effort being made by IALPA and its members, and they really have no vested interest in this other than to be assured that the passage of this legislation meets the highest possible standard. In light of events that have taken place elsewhere over recent years, it would be prudent for us at least to be seen to be judicious in the work we do and give the greatest possible consideration to this Bill.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am absolutely in the hands of everybody in this Chamber and I am only following the Order of Business as proposed. I happen to be a member of the transport committee, although I am neutral when chairing the Seanad. I understand totally the concerns coming from IALPA and members of the committee. If I were sitting down there instead of up here, I would probably be saying some of what is being said by others. It is fair to allow the Minister of State to contribute and I have a proposed wording, if the Leader wishes to use it, that would allow us to articulate the views we have heard.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I respect the decision and workings of the Seanad absolutely. It is important to say, however, there has been extensive engagement between me, IALPA, my Department, the regulator, Deputies and Senators. There have been more than ten different engagements since last year on this legislation. IALPA's proposed amendments have been tabled as part of the legislation, and I have come to the Seanad today to discuss the exact issues being raised. Again, if the Seanad wishes to defer its consideration today, I completely respect that decision. I came here to discuss the very issues highlighted. If the Seanad wishes to delay this for whatever reasons, I completely respect that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I have a proposed wording, if the Leader wishes to make a proposal.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I can hear the Minister's frustration and she has spoken about the extensive engagement that has occurred between officials in the Department, the Irish Aviation Authority and all of us as well as IALPA. The biggest problem is that although there might have been ten Zoom meetings, there is no listening going on. There is not one iota of an acceptance of what is being asked for by the people who own the licences and operate the planes, the aviation industry and the safety and security of all the millions of passengers on a daily basis. Not one example of acquiescence is apparent for anything that has been asked for. There might have been extensive engagement but there certainly has not been sincerity in the interactions. There certainly has been no listening. On the basis, I will certainly use any proposed wording to facilitate a suspension of consideration and look to refer this matter back to the committee for further discussion.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader may propose that, notwithstanding the order of the House today, the debate on No. 2 be now adjourned.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I propose, notwithstanding the order of the House today, the debate on No. 2 be now adjourned.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.