Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, to the House and back to her old alma mater.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the Minister coming to the Upper House to discuss this matter with me.

A new national childcare scheme will be rolled out from this October which will replace previous childcare support programmes. The aim of this, as I understand it, is that parents of children aged from two to 15 years attending any Tusla-registered childcare service will be entitled to some level of financial support. However, one service provider in Carlow has flagged an issue with me, on which I seek clarification from the Minister today. Carlow Regional Youth Services, CRYS, is a local voluntary service in my own town which is affiliated with Youth Work Ireland. The service began more than 30 years ago in 1988 with one part-time worker and has grown year on year to provide direct programmes and services to young people at risk. It provides a substantial number of services and opportunities through community-based youth work programmes, including drop-in supports, specialised services for young people at risk, and leadership training. This great service with terrific volunteers and staff works with young people aged between eight and 23 years. While offering a comprehensive service to young people in the Carlow area with community-based projects in Graiguecullen, John Sweeney Park, and the youth café on Burren Street, there is also a strong focus on surrounding areas such as Tullow, Bagenalstown, Hacketstown, and Borris. It is a countywide support service that many families rely on. It works with a range of other agencies, including the HSE, the regional drug and alcohol task force, Carlow County Council, Carlow County Childcare Committee, the school completion programme and many others I would never be able to list completely. Its work is primarily divided into three age groups. It provides after-school services, homework support, a junior youth programme, and summer camps for eight to 12 year olds; a drop-in facility, planned youth work programmes, youth participation programmes, youth leadership training, and specialist support and services for 12 to 18 year olds; and volunteer training, youth work, accredited training, and some services for vulnerable young adults in their social time for 18 to 23 year olds.

The service has been in receipt of funding under the community childcare subvention, CCS, scheme for the three after-school projects. This scheme will, according to the Department's plan, be replaced by the national childcare scheme on 11 October 2019. The concern of this service and, I am sure, of many others like it, is that there is no provision in the new funding scheme for parents who are not working, for example, those on jobseeker's allowance, disability payments or the one-parent family payment. In fact, CRYS has highlighted to me that the children who require extra support have been completely forgotten about in the new scheme. If the scheme goes ahead as intended it would not be inclusive to all. Some 59 eight to 12 year olds attend the Carlow Regional Youth Service's after-school service daily. Their parents pay €5 per child per week to avail of this service. Under the new scheme parents will be required to pay €40 per child per week if they are successful in securing hours. The after-school service's main aim is to provide additional supports to children who need extra help to complete primary school successfully, which is huge. It accepts referrals from local primary schools, social workers, parents, the child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, and the school completion programme.

For the after-school services this is huge. This is an essential service that is well-respected by parents, children, and the wider community, and plays a crucial role in supporting vulnerable children and families. If the national childcare scheme is implemented in its current format, the CRYS after-school service will be forced to close and vulnerable children and families will be denied this valuable support because the users will not be able to afford it.Will the Minister ensure robust provisions in the scheme in order that vulnerable children and families in Carlow can continue to avail of this service and can be given the support they need to thrive and enjoy their lives?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I thank the Senator and I hear the issues she is putting forward. I am going to answer the question as she put it to us last evening.

The national childcare scheme, when introduced, will represent a major landmark for all children and families in Ireland, especially for lower-income families and lone parents. It can be accessed by all families and not only those working or studying full-time. The new scheme will replace the existing targeted childcare schemes with a single streamlined and user-friendly scheme.

The scheme entails a fundamental shift away from subsidies grounded in medical card and social protection entitlements towards a comprehensive and progressive system of universal and income-based subsidies. By making this shift, and by tangibly reducing the cost of quality childcare for thousands of families across Ireland, the scheme aims to improve outcomes for children, support lifelong learning, make work pay and reduce child poverty. It is also designed to have a positive impact on gender equality in labour market participation and employment opportunities.

Under the current targeted schemes many families with low income levels are not currently able to access subsidised childcare, either because they are in low-paid employment or because they are rotating between short periods of employment, unemployment and training. The national childcare scheme will change this. The universal subsidy will be available to all families with children under three years of age, as well as those with children over the age of three years who have not yet qualified for the free preschool programme. The universal subsidy provides 50 cent per hour towards the cost of a registered childcare place for up to a maximum of 40 hours per week. It is not means tested. With regard to income-based subsidies awarded under the scheme, parents who are working, studying or who meet certain other conditions will qualify for an enhanced-hours subsidy up to a maximum of 40 hours per week. The definitions of "work" and "study" will be set out in regulations made under the Childcare Support Act 2018. They will be comprehensive and cover differing types of work and study arrangements, such as part-time work, week-on, week-off work and zero-hour contract arrangements. The legislation will also provide for bridging periods when a parent is moving between work and study. Where a parent is not engaging in work or study, the child will still be eligible for the standard hours subsidy of 15 hours per week. These 15 hours will wrap around school and preschool provisions. This means that when the child is in school or preschool no subsidy will be payable during term time. This approach reflects policy objectives of encouraging labour market activation and reducing child poverty and persistent poverty traps. It is consistent with the evidence of the strong benefits of early leaning and care for young children, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds, as well as evidence that these benefits are, in most cases, realised with part-time participation.

For older children, the approach recognises that during term time, child development needs will be met through school and preschool, while still providing part-time early learning and care and school age childcare outside of those times. Arrangements will be in place to ensure that no one loses out in the initial transition to the new scheme. Families will be able to continue to access their current targeted supports until August 2020.

The new national childcare scheme has been designed to be flexible with income thresholds, maximum hours and subsidy rates that can be adjusted in line with Government decisions and as more investment becomes available. As such, any adjustments deemed necessary by Government can be carried out in a quick and responsive manner.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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I am disappointed with the answer because years ago when all these groups were set up, the after-school services were always in what would have been called disadvantaged areas but now these parents are going to lose out. They will not be able to afford to send their children to after-school services. We are talking about the most vulnerable in our society. I beg the Minister to re-examine the scheme. There are good parts in the scheme. We need to make it work across the board so that it suits everyone. I can understand that but I believe that, as it stands, the most vulnerable will suffer. I estimate that 1,000 children or more throughout the country are using this scheme. This really needs to be addressed and I have major concerns about it.

I have received requests to meet the Minister, in particular from Kathryn Wall, who oversees this area. She is excellent, as are her six part-time staff. We are seeking a meeting with the Minister to go through facts and figures. I call on the Minister to meet us and to ensure that before the scheme is implemented, some help would be given in this regard. We cannot lose this area. It is for children who are the most vulnerable in our society. I would appreciate if the Minister could do that for me.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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As I said at the beginning, I attempted to answer the question as Senator Murnane O'Connor put it to me. It did not specify the service outlined by the Senator in her commentary to me now. Having said that, I appreciate the arguments she has made.

I will say a couple of things. International reports have stated that the national childcare scheme will significantly address affordability for low-income families. For example, OECD research has found that Ireland will change from being the most expensive country in the OECD for childcare for lone parents to 11th position by that measure. However, I hear the issues Senator Murnane O'Connor is raising in the Seanad and I share her concerns in this regard. That is why last year I commissioned an independent sustainability review. The review is analysing several services in highly disadvantaged communities to explore any potential financial sustainability issues, as highlighted by Senator Murnane O'Connor, and the potential impact of the work-study rules within the national childcare scheme. That analysis will be completed shortly. It will inform any refinements required for the national childcare scheme. While overseeing the completion of that independent sustainability review, my officials will be happy to meet Senator Murnane O'Connor and those who were involved in the pilot impact study identified this morning by the Senator to learn more about their work and findings as a way of taking on board what the Senator has raised before we make decisions in that regard.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that.