Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for coming to the House for this debate. I know he is exceptionally busy and I appreciate that he has taken time to come here. I genuinely acknowledge that. I am always conscious that Ministers are busy. It says something about a Minister when he or she can occasionally make time in his or her busy schedule to come to the Seanad as an acknowledgement of the importance of its work as part of the Oireachtas process. I thank the Minister again.

I have been asked to raise some issues on behalf of a number of trade unions in the local government sector. The transfer of local authority workers to Irish Water was originally scheduled to take place in 2025. I am advised that Irish Water management is now talking about substantial completion of that process as early as next year and up to 2021.I am here to listen to the Minister and be put right if I am wrong. The unions expect more than 1,000 jobs to be lost in this process and state that more than 700 jobs have already been shed. They have provided data in that regard which I am happy to share with the Minister. Irish Water stated that there will be no compulsory redundancies.

I support trade unions and know the great work they have done in local authorities, but it is becoming very difficult for them. Whether one likes them or not, we must recognise and accept that existing arrangements and promises must be honoured. It is as simple as that. Any commitments made following negotiations with a trade union or other body must be honoured. I seek greater clarity on what commitments were made and where we are in that regard. The IMPACT trade union stated it is awaiting formal proposals. I acknowledge that there has been some engagement and talks but the union is anxious to discuss the finer detail. Its understanding is that the agreements should be in place until 2025. This morning I spoke to several of its members who work in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. Some told me that they are unsure of the current situation. Others stated they were transferred into aspects of water services in their local authorities over a period of two or three years. In some cases, they volunteered for transfer. However, through no fault of their own, they may now be forced to move to Irish Water.

We must establish and uphold the principle that where a workplace agreement is in being, staff should not be moved to another authority unless that is done voluntarily and with the full express consent of the workforce. There must be negotiation. Many workers will want to move to Irish Water. I acknowledge that the Minister recognises that, ideally, we want happy staff and people moving job because they wish to do so. I would welcome greater clarity because workers who are happy in their current roles have concerns about leaving the local authority where they have built up friendships and work relationships and patterns and do not wish to be forced to do so. I ask the Minister to give the House a commitment that nobody will be pressurised or forced to leave his or her place of employment, that is, his or her local authority, to move to Irish Water or any other water utility without his or her full express consent.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for raising this very important issue. I am happy to be here to address his concerns and give clarity where I can. There are some layers to the issue.

As the Senator will be aware, the Government water services policy statement 2018-25 published in May of this year contains the broad policy context for the development of water services in Ireland. It outlines the position of Irish Water as the single publicly owned national water services authority. Since 1 January 2014, Irish Water has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services planning, delivery and operation at national, regional and local levels. It has entered service level agreements, SLAs, with each local authority for the provision of water services. Staff working under these arrangements remain local authority employees while continuing to perform key water service functions, with local authorities acting as agents of Irish Water. Staffing arrangements are an operational matter for Irish Water and local authorities within the context of the SLA arrangements that are in place.

On 19 September 2018 I received a report from the director general of the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, in respect of a process of engagement undertaken at my request with the parties involved in the transformation programme for Irish Water, namely, Irish Water, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, relevant affiliated unions, local government management and my Department. The context lies in Irish Water's proposal to integrate its operations fully and end the current operational arrangements for the delivery of water services through the SLAs with local authorities. The discussions with the parties have advanced on the basis that the current SLAs will remain in place until such time as an alternative is agreed by all sides.

In considering the report in consultation with my Government colleagues, I am particularly mindful of the comments of the WRC that uncertainty about the next phase of transformation appears to be causing staffing difficulties at local government level and that further delay in providing the necessary clarity could exacerbate that situation and increase risks to the safe and effective delivery of water and wastewater services.Since the WRC was asked to undertake the engagement exercise, the future governance and operational arrangements for Irish Water have been clarified. In July of this year, the Government decided that Irish Water would become a stand-alone and publicly-owned commercial regulated utility and would be separated from the Ervia Group during 2023. Work on the preparation of a separation plan is under way.

Having set out the future direction of Irish Water in this respect, it is important for all involved that clarity is now achieved in addressing the issues that arise in the context of the transformation programme. This needs to happen without delay. In this context, I have asked the parties to engage in a process to work towards the development of a stable structural and operational framework for the future, which would replace the current service level agreements with arrangements which will provide Irish Water, as the national water services authority, with the necessary control of operations, accountability and capacity to manage risk and to communicate and negotiate with all water services workers on the change agenda and on a single identity for customer-facing services. As part of the development of this framework, there is a need to ensure that Irish Water is not left without an appropriately-skilled workforce to carry out its statutory functions and that local authorities are not left with stranded costs. The concerns of workers about the future deployment of existing local authority water staff can be addressed by developing arrangements which meet the two objectives I have just mentioned without requiring section 19 of the Water Services Act 2013 to be invoked other than by collective agreement. For the information of the Senator, section 19 relates to the designation of local authority staff for transfer to Irish Water upon the termination of an SLA.

I have asked for the development of a framework for the future to be concluded by the end of February 2019. I am grateful for the commitment of the WRC to facilitate this process. I am also grateful for the engagement to date in this process of staff representatives through their trade unions. Water services are essential to the daily lives of our citizens and our economy. It is imperative that we ensure the best and most appropriate arrangements possible are in place for the delivery of these vital services.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply, which I will be happy to circulate this afternoon to the unions that have been in touch with me. The Minister referred to, "the comments of the WRC that uncertainty about the next phase of transformation appears to be causing staffing difficulties". It seems that the changeover has been brought forward slightly for that reason.

We cannot deviate from the fact that there is an agreement. I am aware that there are 31 SLAs - one in each of the 31 local authorities. The reality is that the 2025 commitment has to be honoured. If that must change for practical or pragmatic reasons associated with the continuation of service and standards, that is grand but it must be done through meaningful negotiation with the trade unions that represent workers. If it does not happen in this way, there will be unrest in this sector, which will not serve the community, the users of water, the employees or the local authorities well. I suggest we should steady the ship by reassuring the workforce that meaningful and respectful dialogue will take place with their trade unions. That is really important.

While we are talking about Irish Water, the Minister might confirm his plans and those of the Government for a constitutional referendum on the provision of public water services in this country.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for slipping in a supplementary question about Irish Water.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I hope the Minister does not mind. He is always on top of his brief.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I do not mind at all.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Boyhan slipped it in under the radar.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is important to note that we have had very respectful and meaningful interactions to date. I have had such interactions with representatives of the workers and with the different actors who are involved in the process that is under way. That has been managed helpfully with the assistance of the WRC.

I would be happy for the Senator to circulate the reply I have provided if he thinks it would be helpful to do so. I suggest it would be worthwhile to focus on two key parts of it. First, I mentioned that, "the current SLAs will remain in place until such time as an alternative is agreed by all sides". Second, I said towards the end of my initial response that changes should not be made, "other than by collective agreement". We are talking about the ability of all sides to come to an understanding on a shared agreement which recognises that Irish Water and the local authorities will have certain needs into the future and ensures we can provide water, which is a natural resource, of the quality needed to enable people to live their lives in a healthy way and enable businesses to do business in a successful way.

We have to be careful because we cannot do trade negotiations on the floor of the House. We need to be sensitive when communicating directly with workers because they have their own chains of communication within their own organisations. We would not want to worry people unduly. I know this is not what the Senator is setting out to do. He has been very careful in his language and I thank him for that.

The holding of any referendum is a decision of the Oireachtas, rather than a decision of the Government. During the formation of this Government, my predecessors in this office and other Members of the House did some good work to come to an agreed framework on how to move the water issue on.It was a central issue in the forming of that new Government and as the new Dáil began. Agreements were made on the progress of a referendum Bill through the House, with the Government working as part of that process to find the right wording to go to the public.

One of the things on which I have been quite consistent since taking over this role is that when we put wording to the people it should be language that everyone agrees on so that it is an almost uncontested referendum. There is no threat to the public ownership of water in this country, but to put minds at ease it was agreed that we would go into that process in good faith, and we have. Now let us try to get the language that everyone can agree on so that when the referendum happens it is, to use someone else's language, a slam dunk.

I have agreement from the Cabinet, so the Attorney General can now draft wording that can be put as an amendment to Deputy Joan Collins's Bill on Committee Stage. If we agree on that wording, it will then be up to the House to decide when that referendum takes place. That is the current position in regard to the Government's work as part of this process.