Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the people who are here from Kilkenny to see their local Minister in action. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy John Paul Phelan, will acknowledge these people with a greater depth of knowledge than I can. There is cross-party support. We have a couple of sons of Councillor Eamon Aylward in the audience. That is a strong political name in Kilkenny. Perhaps Senator Horkan might be interested.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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One never knows.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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I hope they enjoy their day out today. I request that the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, address the Seanad and advise if his Department will pay any increase in the car insurance of county councillors. I have discussed this with the Minister. Some councillors have class 2 cover, which is business cover, on their car policies in respect of council work. It has come to light in two particular councils that I am aware of. The Minister might give some clarification. He has put a lot of work into the pay and conditions of county councillors. I believe that is going to bear fruit soon. He might explain and put some flesh on the bones of when he hopes to report back to the House with his recommendations to make councillors' pay and conditions better.

John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for raising this issue. It is timely to have this discussion with the students from Scoil Aireagail in the Gallery. There are three Aylwards my sister tells me. That is my sister Catherine, who is with them along with other staff members. She was a councillor herself for six years on Kilkenny County Council. I acknowledge their presence.

It is important to ensure that councillors are provided with appropriate supports to allow them to carry out their important role as local authority members and as public representatives. A range of allowances is already in place. The role of my Department is to provide a statutory framework for such supports under the Local Government Act 2001. Those regulations are given effect with the consent of the Minister for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform. My Department also issues direction to local authorities concerning the terms that apply to expenses claims and payments.

My Department does not provide direct remuneration to local authorities for the payment of such expenses. Local authorities are independent statutory bodies with their own management structures. Local authorities may provide direction, to councillors and employees alike, regarding the use of private vehicles for official council business provided that such direction is consistent with the appropriate statutory framework. I understand that some local authorities have advised their elected members that it is necessary to ensure that business usage is included as part of personal motor insurance policies in cases where private vehicles are being used for official business. It is understood that similar direction has also been issued by some local authorities to employees who use private vehicles for official business.

The cost of a private insurance premium is a personal matter for the individual concerned and the insurance provider. The terms and conditions that apply to the payment of motor travel expenses incurred by councillors are consistent with the terms and conditions that also apply to council employees.They are based on directions issued centrally by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that apply to all public bodies. My Department has made inquiries with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and it was advised that a range of factors must be taken into account when formulating the motor travel rates for expenses payments, including overhead costs such as replacing the car insurance and motor tax, as well as running costs such as fuel, maintenance and service.

Senators will appreciate that, in the time available, it has not been possible to examine this matter in full detail. However, I assure the House that my Department will further engage with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and local authorities on the matter. It is timely to have the discussion today as it underlines the need for the intended upcoming review of local councillors' terms and conditions. The review will be an important exercise in scoping the role of a councillor, an exercise that has never been done properly in the past. Senators may recall that I have referred to this on previous visits to the Seanad and I hope it will aid local democracy in continuing to attract and retain candidates who can have confidence that they are performing a well-defined role at the coalface of our local political system, and that the supports available to them are appropriate and adequate.

Aidan Davitt (Fianna Fail)
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I know that this has been discussed before and the Minister of State has been looking at it. There is a proposed model of tying councillors to a civil servant type of scale. The Minister of State mentioned his hope that it would be the way forward but is it still his opinion and does he still see it as the answer to satisfy councillors the way they should be satisfied? The Minister of State is aware, more than most, that there must be improvements in the system for councillors. There is no better man and he came from the ground up. His family is steeped in local and national politics.

John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It has been my intention for the past number of months to have this group established before the end of May. That is still the intention and I hope to finalise the terms of reference for the group this week. They have to be signed off by the Departments of Expenditure and Reform and Housing, Planning and Local Government. We can get that sorted this week and it is then a question of personnel, and that is being worked on currently. It is absolutely the intention to remove political decision making from the remuneration of councillors in the future and to establish, once and for all, a link between a public sector grade and the work of county and city councillors across the country. This will ensure that any benefits accruing to grades in the Civil Service will also accrue to councillors. That includes things such as pensions, health provision and other changes. This is particularly timely as we will have the review of the local electoral areas across the country published by the middle of next month. This group will produce its report before Hallowe'en and people throughout the country will have seven or eight months in advance of the next local elections to decide on whether to stand again or whether they wish to become new candidates in council elections.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I extend my welcome also to all the people from Kilkenny, including the Aylward family. Perhaps some of them will end up here. Ms Phelan is a former councillor. She was a councillor at the same time I was and I recall meeting her on a number of occasions.