Seanad debates

Thursday, 22 February 2018

Commencement Matters

Multidenominational Schools

10:30 am

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne.

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the Chamber. It is a matter of disappointment to me that neither the Minister for Education and Skills nor one of the Ministers of State at that Department have come here for this debate. I will raise the matter nonetheless in the hope of getting some kind of constructive reply.

As the Labour Party spokesperson on education, I am concerned about the Government's capacity to deal with the relationship between the State and the religious patron bodies when it comes to education. I suspect that the bent of the Department of Education and Skills and the Minister who is in charge of that Department is against the multidenominational model. We have yet to see the baptism barrier legislation. A number of campaigns seeking to establish second level Educate Together schools around the country, particularly in Galway, Kildare and Dublin 13, are getting no support from the Department. A departmental circular that was issued last week, and about which the Minister has spoken, will lead to changes in religious instruction in a number of schools. For some reason, the new circular does not cover all schools even though students have a constitutional right not to partake in religious instruction. Religious orders that are seeking to sell off lands at a number of schools have threatened to disband boards of management that have the temerity to resist the sale of such lands or to ask the Minister to disband them. Along with Councillor Deirdre Kingston, I am dealing with the particular case of Clonkeen College at the moment.

The relationship between the State and the education system, which is effectively run by patron bodies, is affecting a plethora of issues. The State should be willing to use its power, for the good of pupils and the people in general, to support a model of education that is outside religious influence. Five new Educate Together primary schools in New Ross, Trim, Tuam, Tramore and Castlebar have been told by the Department that they should have restricted enrolments of just 13 pupils from next September. When the Labour Party was in government, it went out of its way to petition people and parent bodies in various parts of the country for the first time to ascertain the level of interest in different models of education. Despite much scepticism, we discovered that there is a huge level of interest throughout the country in a different model of education that is not under religious influence. Five schools that were established at that time are now being told by the Department that they must have restricted enrolment from next September. What is the thought process behind that decision? Why have these schools been singled out? Is it mere coincidence that they all happen to be Educate Together schools?

Perhaps this and all the other things I have mentioned - the baptism barrier, the circular on religious instruction, the failure to support campaigns seeking to establish second level Educate Together schools and the threat from religious orders to disband boards of management if they stand in the way of the sale of school lands - are in line with the conservative mindset of a Department that has met the conservative mindset of the Minister. On this issue, will anybody from the Government genuinely say that the Department of Education and Skills under the tenure of the Minister, Deputy Bruton, is going to defend in any way the right of parents to have their children educated under the patronage of a multidenominational patron body? I would be interested to hear the Minister of State's response to that question so that we can toss this issue around and debate it further.

Photo of Seán KyneSeán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Ó Ríordáin for raising this issue as a Commencement matter. Unfortunately, the Minister, Deputy Bruton, is not available today. I am informed by his office that he was available on Tuesday and Wednesday and that he has debated this matter in this House and in the Dáil this week. I disagree fundamentally with the Senator's views on the Minister, Deputy Bruton, who is the first member of the Fine Gael Party to hold the senior education Ministry since the late 1980s and is very progressive in his outlook on the whole area of education.As the Senator is no doubt aware, the 2012 report of the advisory group to the forum on patronage and pluralism in the primary sector recommended that demand for patronage diversity should be met in areas of stable population by divesting patronage of existing schools where there is evidence of parental demand for change. In this context, in 2012-2013, the Department undertook surveys of parental preferences in 43 areas of stable population to establish the level of demand for a wider choice in the patronage of primary schools. These areas were all stable in terms of population growth, so no new school places were required.

The establishment and size of the schools indicated by the Senator have origins in the report on the pilot surveys regarding parental preferences on primary school patronage and the report on the surveys regarding parental preferences on primary school, which indicated a size of at least half a single-stream school, comprising four classrooms, being required to accommodate parental demand in the case of Tramore and Trim and up to four classrooms in the case of New Ross and Tuam.

Under the patronage divesting process, a school could be opened where a school building became or was due to become available as a result of an amalgamation or closure of an existing school. In some areas, in responding to demand for diversity where existing patrons were unable make school properties available, the Department included an examination of properties held in public ownership. All schools, irrespective of their location, have to operate within their available accommodation and manage annual pupil intake accordingly. The initial establishment of the indicated schools as four-classroom schools and the need to be cognisant of managing the available accommodation has been reflected in the Department's engagement with the patron body of these schools, Educate Together.

When one of the schools raised the issue of expanding its enrolment, the Department invited Educate Together to submit a case to it in this regard. A case has been submitted by Educate Together to further expand five schools under its patronage that opened under the patronage divesting process. These are the Educate Together national schools in Castlebar, New Ross, Tramore, Trim and Tuam. The case is under consideration.

The Department is carrying out nationwide demographic exercises at primary and post-primary levels to identify areas of demographic growth and determine where additional school accommodation is needed in order to plan for school provision nationwide, and this work is almost complete. In this context, the outcome of the nationwide demographic exercises will have an input into the consideration of the case submitted by Educate Together. In addition, the Minister has announced a new patronage reconfiguration process, which will accelerate the delivery of multidenominational and non-denominational schools, to reach 400 such schools by 2030.

There have been previous efforts at transferring patronage but we must be honest and admit they have not worked. Only ten schools transferred to multidenominational patronage as a result of the previous process set up by the former Minister, Ruairí Quinn, in 2012. The figure is lower than was hoped for. The new process is designed to build on the lessons learned from the previous process and deliver more multidenominational and non-denominational schools, and that is what we believe it will do. Unlike the previous process, this plan will focus on live transfers so that a school that transfers under the new process will not be reliant on temporary accommodation.

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Labour)
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I just do not understand the reply. I wish I did. I will probably have to read it on another occasion to get to the bottom of what the Minister of State is saying. Unfortunately, the Department and Minister are strangling the five schools. They will not be able to survive. They know they will not be able to survive if they are being told that, by next September, they will be able to take in only 13 students. Will the cap remain in place and will the Minister change his mind? Could the Minister of State cut through the entire answer and give me the direct answer I require? I appreciate the responsible Department is not that of the Minister of State but this is the second time I have been at a Commencement debate without a representative from the Department responsible. At a debate here a number of weeks ago, none of the Ministers from the Department of Education and Skills - the Minister and two Ministers of State - was available to address the issue. The same is happening today.

I have the response the Minister of State read out, which is fair enough, but I do not see an answer in it. I want to know whether the cap is to remain in place. Will the Minister change his position? Will he let the schools grow, which is all they are asking for? Will they still be allowed to admit only 13 students in September?

Photo of Seán KyneSeán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for his remarks. I will certainly relate his views to the Minister, Deputy Bruton. The reply states the case has been submitted to the Department by Educate Together and is currently under consideration. That is the gist of the reply. The Department is considering the case made and I certainly hope that, because the initiative is important, it will look favourably on allowing the schools to expand. I hope the process will be rolled out further. I believe that is also the view of the Minister. If we were designing the country again, we might not have so much church patronage of schools. Perhaps there should not be any patronage except patronage by the Department of Education and Skills, but that is not where we are now. We must deal with the facts as they exist in terms of religious orders owning school buildings across the country. The divestment process, although enjoying widespread support, is not as easy as one would have hoped.

The case has been submitted to the Department and is under consideration. I certainly hope there will be a positive outcome for the schools in question.