Seanad debates

Tuesday, 31 January 2017

Commencement Matters

Redundancy Payments

2:30 pm

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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My question relates to outstanding Labour Court recommendations Nos. 21162 to 21181, inclusive, and 21185, which refer to SIPTU members who were formerly employed at the Tipperary Hostel on the basis of a job initiative scheme. The hostel closed in 2010 and in 2011 the Employment Appeals Tribunal determined that a genuine redundancy existed. As a result, SIPTU made a direct application to the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment for the payment of statutory entitlements through the Social Insurance Fund. It took the workers approximately 14 months, through their union, to receive these payments. SIPTU then progressed a claim for enhanced redundancy in line with previous agreements of the Labour Court, which issued its findings on 16 March 2016. The court recommended in all cases an ex gratiapayment of three week's pay per year of service over and above the statutory redundancy payments that were made. The former workers covered by these recommendations are Gary Ryan, Seán Twomey, Patrick Merrigan, Seamus McCarthy, Carmel Mc Grath, Denis Hansen, Michael O'Dwyer, Oliver Keogh, Richard Capliss, Michael Ward, Ian Dawson, Richard Brennan, Michael Cohen, David Ryan, Gerard Culhane, John Joseph Lyndon, Dominic Frewen, Pat Morrissey, Seán Carew, Philip Wilson and Cornelius Connors.

In its efforts to secure payment of the outstanding moneys, SIPTU wrote to Ms Deirdre Shanley, principal officer in charge of employment schemes at the Department of Social Protection, on 29 April and 28 June of last year. There followed a meeting between Ms Shanley, representing the Department and-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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It is not appropriate for the Senator to name officials.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I apologise. The Cathaoirleach is quite right and I am sorry for that.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Departmental officials are entitled to some protection.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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The Cathaoirleach is right and I apologise.

There followed a meeting between the Department and SIPTU on 13 June to discuss the outstanding moneys due. SIPTU wrote again to the Department on 11 July, detailing these cases alongside a number of others involving former workers from a number of other schemes. SIPTU received no response and wrote again to the Department on 13 September in pursuit of outstanding moneys for its members. In this correspondence, Eddie Mullin, a SIPTU senior sector organiser detailed that the union had written to the Department in 2014 confirming its intention to refer a breach of the community employment, CE, supervisor enhanced redundancy agreement of 2002, as amended in 2005, to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. In October 2014, at the request of the Department, SIPTU had agreed to put this referral on hold to allow further talks between the two parties. One meeting took place but no progress was made. SIPTU referred this matter back to the WRC last September. Almost five months have passed and the WRC still has not received a response from the Department of Social Protection to its invitation to attend a hearing.

With the greatest respect, I genuinely do not understand why the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Catherine Byrne, is here today. I did not direct this question to her or her Department.Is it okay for a Government Minister to ignore Labour Court recommendations? It is the Minister of State's colleague, Deputy Leo Varadkar, who is ignoring them. What signal does this send to employers and unions that a senior Minister is ignoring the highest body in the State's industrial relations machinery? What message does it send that the Department of Social Protection did not even bother to tell SIPTU that it had chosen to pass on this issue to another Department, if that is what has happened? What about the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, which has been waiting for a response for five months on whether the Government will attend the hearing to resolve the related matter of the breach of the community employment supervisor enhanced redundancy agreements? Will the Minister of State at least confirm that the Government will accept the WRC's invitation to talks? Is she even aware that the invitation has been outstanding for the past five months? We have Ireland's largest union waiting for a response that has not come. We also have the Workplace Relations Commission waiting for a response. We have 16 men and their families, seven years after they lost their jobs, waiting for this payment and the Labour Court's recommendations to be honoured. I hope the Minister of State will be able to give me some precise answers today.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for tabling this Commencement matter. As he correctly pointed out, it is not within my area of responsibility. I have been asked to take it on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy John Halligan, who sends his apologies that he cannot be here. I will read the statement I have been given. I have taken note of what the Senator has said which I will relay back to the Minister of State.

The Tipperary hostel project was a community based project set up in 2000 by Tipperary Hostel Limited. Its objective was the transformation of a Famine era workhouse in Tipperary Town into a facility which was expected to operate primarily as a local community based hostel under community and voluntary management. The project was part funded under a FÁS job initiative programme. FÁS provided financial support to assist with the job intervention programme, for example, with participants' wages. Funding was also provided for the project by Pobal. The aim of the job initiative programme was to assist long-term unemployed persons to prepare for work opportunities by providing participants with work experience, training and development opportunities.

In April 2010 the board of Tipperary Hostel Limited informed FÁS that it would be ceasing work on the project on 30 April 2010. This followed on from an internal audit investigation by both Pobal and FÁS. At the time of the closure there were 22 employees participating in the scheme. FÁS arranged alternative employment on community schemes for 22 participants, however only one availed of this offer.

A case on behalf of the employees was taken to the Employment Appeals Tribunal where it was established that the employer of the job initiative programme participants was Tipperary Hostel Limited, not FÁS. FÁS ceased to fund and manage all job initiative schemes in 2011 as this function was transferred to the Department of Social Protection. In October 2013 FÁS was abolished and SOLAS was established. SOLAS has no liability for redundancy payments to the former participants as its predecessor, FÁS, was never their employer as was confirmed at the Employment Appeal Tribunal. SOLAS was not a party to the Labour Court recommendations of March 2016, LCR21162 to LCR21181, inclusive, and LCR21185. The parties involved were Tipperary Hostel Limited and SIPTU. In the recommendations of the Labour Court the finding was against Tipperary Hostel Limited. Tipperary Hostel Limited stated it had no funds as during its operation it had relied on funding from FÁS and POBAL. The Labour Court recommended that the parties, Tipperary Hostel Limited and SIPTU, jointly co-operate in seeking the necessary funds from the funding agency to discharge the amounts recommended. Tipperary Hostel Limited and SIPTU have not at any stage sought funding from SOLAS or the Department.

In relation to the decision on the provision of funding, it should also be noted that there is an outstanding liability due to SOLAS of €159,960 from Tipperary Hostel Limited.SOLAS has continued to pursue this funding from the company. I thank the Senator for giving the Minister an opportunity to outline the position in relation to the Tipperary hostel project.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I hope the Minister of State can understand why I am extremely disappointed with her response. The least these workers deserve is respect. They have been shown no respect by the Department of Social Protection. The Minister of State acknowledged in her reply that responsibility for job initiative schemes has been transferred to that Department. When officials from the Department met representatives of SIPTU, they did not say this was nothing to do with the Department. A WRC invitation has been outstanding for five months. I have to say the Government is playing ducks and drakes with this. It is ducking here and ducking there. These people are waiting for moneys that are due to them on foot of a Labour Court recommendation. The disrespect shown to these workers is in stark contrast to the affording of moneys to banks and developers by the Government. I do not mean it personally when I put it to the Minister of State, who has a rotten job here today, that this is a disgrace. I am extremely dissatisfied because it is a disservice to the Seanad that I have been unable to get a single straight answer on behalf of these workers. I hope the Minister of State can do more than that before she leaves.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think this will be resolved today. Does the Minister of State want to-----

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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No, I just-----

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister of State accept the WRC invitation?

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I know the Senator is very passionate about this matter, but, as he has admitted, the Minister of State is not the line Minister in this area. As she is standing in for somebody else, she does not have all the answers. I do not think it will be resolved today. I ask the Minister of State to make some brief remarks in conclusion.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Gavan. I appreciate that the reply has frustrated him. To be honest, I could raise my own concerns in that regard. I will bring the issues he has outlined this afternoon to the attention of the Minister. The Minister and his office will reply to the Senator in more detail and answer some of the questions he has raised. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to provide detailed answers. It would be wrong of me to try to do so, but I will give a personal commitment to pass on the concern and frustration expressed by the Senator during this afternoon's Commencement debate.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate it.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I am sure Senator Gavan will raise the same issue here again if the line Minister does not heed the Minister of State's hints. I hope it can be resolved without another debate.