Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I propose to share one minute of my time with Senator Diarmuid Wilson.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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That is agreed.

Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach.

An Bord Pleanála published its decision on the North-South interconnector just before Christmas. It is remarkable in the case of a project of such magnitude that the decision has only nine conditions attached. An ordinary punter would have more conditions attached to a proposal for an extension to a dwelling house.

Needless to say, An Bord Pleanála's decision was met by a tsunami of disappointment, anger and frustration by the people affected. If EirGrid believes people on the ground will take the decision lying down, it is very much mistaken. The determination and resolve of communities opposed to the overgrounding of the North-South interconnector are immeasurable and were very much evident at a meeting I attended in Kells last Thursday night. Opposition to the project is stronger than ever, particularly because people believe the process let them down. Not only that, they believe it was rigged against them and that they were effectively dealing with a fait accompli. There is no greater motivator than a feeling of injustice.The NEPPC and the CMAPC, representing the communities, have made the point that members of the public were placed in a position of having to defend their submissions rather than EirGrid having to defend its planning application. Remarkably, the planning application was never presented at the oral hearing and it was EirGrid's responses to submissions that were used as the basis for the oral hearing. This is a highly irregular approach.

People are very angry that the inputs of landowners and the public were completely ignored. Contributions from local public representatives were not even recorded and county development plans from across the three counties were conflicted. Most of all, the argument accepting that undergrounding was feasible and required further investigation was completely bypassed. The communities fighting the installation of pylons for the interconnector have gathered evidence to show that undergrounding strengthens the grid and improves reliability so that undergrounding is now less expensive than overhead lines. We were told initially told that undergrounding would be 30 times more expensive but with advances in technology, it is now possible that undergrounding is even cheaper than an overhead system. Evidence for this comes from a project currently being undertaken between Belgium and Germany where undergrounding has been done.

In light of such developments it is clear the public has no buy-in to the project as it stands. The Government needs to look very seriously at the underground option and to consider how a project such as this can proceed without public support. It needs to ask why An Bord Pleanála only has responsibility for planning matters and no responsibility for impact on the public, such as the equivalent bodies have in Denmark and Belgium. Most of all, it needs to ask itself why the public feels the system has been rigged against it.

As far as the people of Monaghan, Cavan and Meath are concerned, this project will never see the light of day and I ask the Minister to ensure that EirGrid is instructed to underground the project before it proceeds.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Gallagher for giving me a minute of his time. I totally and absolutely endorse everything he said on the proposed interconnector. This process has now been going on for over ten years, in which time the families who live in these areas of Cavan, Monaghan and Meath have suffered financial, psychological and physical torment. It is just not good enough.

From day 1 they have had to put up with alternative facts, in other words "lies", from EirGrid and its supporters. We hear the phrase "alternative facts" in the United States of America and these alternative facts have been spun for over ten years to ordinary, decent people living ordinary, decent lives in their own communities. Cavan County Council, Monaghan County Council and Meath County Council have passed motions rejecting the proposed overhead power line. Councils made up of representatives of every community in their counties have said "No". EirGrid should have had to prove its planning application was in order but it was the ordinary members of the public and public representatives from the respective areas, including Oireachtas colleagues of mine, who went before the appeals tribunal at which their submissions were not even referred to. That is not good enough in this democracy and just before Christmas An Bord Pleanála announced its decision.The communities in these areas knew what the decision would be ten years ago. As Senator Gallagher said, their resolve to ensure that these cables are never be erected overground has become even stronger in that ten-year period. Regardless of how long this campaign or proposal continues, they will continue to oppose it and we, as Oireachtas colleagues of theirs, and our colleagues on the councils will stand up for them and ensure their voices are heard. The financial argument for this proposal may have had some credibility ten years ago but it has none today. The underground option would cost slightly more, and some suggest it would cost even less than the overground proposal.

I appeal to the Minister of State, as my colleague, Senator Gallagher, has done, to ensure that this project is underground.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senators Gallagher and Wilson for raising this Commencement matter which I am taking it on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Naughten, who unfortunately cannot be here.

I thank both Senators for providing the opportunity to discuss this important energy infrastructure project. They raise suggestions that are often referenced in the debate on this project and I welcome the discussion on the topic. I note that the Minister, Deputy Naughten, will meet local representative groups and public representatives to hear their views. That meeting had been scheduled for last Friday but unfortunately a number of the representatives were unable to meet on that date and the meeting will be rescheduled soon.

It is important to state that Government policy and the development of energy infrastructure precludes the Minister with responsibility for energy from directing EirGrid one way or another with regard to this development, or any interconnector. This is a detail that appears never to be raised in a debate but it is an important one in terms of the parameters of the role of the Minister, Deputy Naughten.

As detailed in the 2012 Government policy statement on the strategic importance of transmission and other energy infrastructure, the policy in this area is very clear. It sets out that the Government does not seek to direct EirGrid and the ESB Networks or any other infrastructure developer to particular sites, routes or technologies. EirGrid is the designated transmission system operator and its role includes the operation, maintenance and development of the electricity transmission network in Ireland. It carries out its role independent from political direction. Would it be appropriate if Ministers with responsibility for energy were to regularly direct it in the discharge of its functions? I do not believe that such a scenario of interference would be ultimately beneficial for all of the people within our State.

The potential for developing the North-South interconnector project underground has been examined and a number of studies have been carried out by EirGrid and independently commissioned by my Department. All those studies were available to An Bord Pleanála as part of a recent planning process. This statutory independent process concluded on 21 December last with the publication of the planning decision. This decision approved, with conditions, the proposed overground North-South 400 kV interconnector project, although I agree that nine conditions seem a little light for a project of that nature, considering, as Senator Gallagher said, that many home owners seem to have many more such conditions attached to some planning permissions.

The planning process carried out by An Bord Pleanála heard from my Department that the North-South interconnector is the key project in delivering the objectives of the national energy policy, specifically security of supply, competitiveness and sustainability. This will bring benefits to electricity customers across the island of Ireland. The planning process also heard testimony both in favour of and against the overground and underground solutions. It examined those issues thoroughly and concluded that a high voltage alternating current overhead line is the best technical and economic solution for the North-South interconnector to achieve these national energy objectives.

I stress that the statutory independent planning process has determined that the proposed North-South interconnector should be developed and neither I nor the Minister, Deputy Naughten, has any role in directing EirGrid to develop the project in a different manner. I understand and acknowledge the grave concerns of local people, local councillors and all my Oireachtas colleagues in the affected counties. This project has been debated on many occasions in our parliamentary party meetings and I am sure it has also been debated in the Senators' parliamentary party meetings. I accept the concerns people have about the overground solution but the policy is clear, namely, that we do not have the power to direct the Minister, Deputy Naughten, to interfere in a decision on the role of EirGrid. The planning process carried out by An Bord Pleanála was independent. Obviously, I was not present at those proceedings. The Senators have views on what was done, what was not done and what should have been done but, clearly, An Bord Pleanála's has an independent role from Government, which must also be acknowledged.

Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response. Looking at the issue objectively, if one was living in Cork or Donegal and examined the process, one would see there was a planning application, that there were oral hearings and that An Bord Pleanála would then make its decision. One would think it was a fair and detailed process. However, it is only when one is close to it that one sees what happens. Only those on the ground see it. Monaghan County Council raised concerns when the first application was made, but they were not addressed. It raised them again when the second application was made, but they were still not addressed. An Bord Pleanála reached a decision on an issue, in spite of the fact that concerns raised by Monaghan County Council had yet to be resolved. I appreciate that the Minister of State has outlined the legal constraints within which he has to operate, but it is important that the issue be examined as the people of counties Monaghan, Cavan and Meath feel wronged by the decision. Given the improvements in technology, the entire project must be looked at again. I assure the Minister of State that, as far as the people of these three counties are concerned, the project will not see the light of day in its current guise, judging from what I hear on the ground.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the concerns of local people about what is a project on a major scale with infrastructure visible on the landscape. Having attended public meetings in my area on smaller projects, including wind farms, I am aware that there is often opposition to projects of such a scale. I accept what the Senator says and understand and sympathise with the views he has expressed on behalf of the constituents he represents. They believe their views have not been taken on board by An Bord Pleanála in its assessment of the planning application.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson referred to alternative facts. From what Senator Robbie Gallagher said, I accept that there are differing views on the cost of undergrounding from that set out by EirGrid. I would like to think there is only one set of facts on the cost of undergrounding compared to that of an overhead line system. I hope it was discussed and verified at the hearings held by An Bord Pleanála and that there are sufficient independent companies that can verify the cost of undergrounding lines versus that of having them above the ground.