Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Seanad for allowing the timely passage of this legislation before the summer recess. We all know the background to this legislation.What I and the Government are trying to do is to create a space and a window of opportunity for a discussion, the input of experts and recommendations to come through an expert commission to an Oireachtas committee. That can then allow us, in nine months time, to make a democratic decision as to how we want to pay for domestic water supply and the treatment of wastewater from households. We have had a lot of heat politically on this issue in Ireland for the last two to three years and people have taken very hardline positions on both sides of this argument. Whoever is in government in three, five or ten years time will have an obligation to ensure we are improving our water infrastructure nationally. We have a disgracefully bad infrastructure at present whereby nearly half of all the water leaks through the pipes before it gets to its destination and many households have been on boil-water notices for long periods.

There has been a decision, which I think is now accepted by most, that moving away from 34 - it is now 31 - different local authorities all doing their own thing on water, and moving towards a single utility model, makes sense. The Government is now putting a process in place to decide how we pay for that, whether that be through general taxation, as some would argue, through a cost recovery model where individual homes pay the full cost of delivering and treating water from their homes, or through some blending of the two, reflecting important issues like ability to pay but, at the same time, ensuring we have incentives around water conservation, better water management and putting a value on the cost of delivering and managing water and wastewater.

The expert commission is a group of very well qualified people. We took advice in regard to the skillset we should get and the number of commission members there should be from abroad and at home, and we acted on that advice. We had a setback in regard to the first chair but that has now been corrected and I am confident the new chair will do a very competent job. When the commission reports back in five months time, it will then be up to the political system to decide to respond to the recommendations in that report. That will initially be through a special Oireachtas committee that will be set up, and in which I am sure the Seanad will have an involvement. Then, after about three months, that committee will bring recommendations to the political system - to the Dáil initially - in order to have a debate and vote on what our international obligations are and how we respond to those. There are also key issues around whether we can create political consensus on something on which, as with other fundamental resources we have to provide to homes and people, we should try to get more political consensus than we have been able to get in the past.

Some people have taken a purist view on this. I know the former Minister, Deputy Kelly, took a very hard line and this was the wrong thing to do. We are living in a new political reality. We had to make choices and the choice was this: either we put a process in place that could get majority political support and will, hopefully, result in a sustainable political outcome in terms of how we pay for water, or people just stay in their corner and hold their lines. Both Irish Water and water charges would have been abolished after the election in the political heat of that debate. I believe that would have been a massive setback for both water infrastructure and the approach to water on which we need to have a mature and informed debate.

This legislation simply suspends water charges and all matters relating to that for nine months. That nine-month period can be extended if the committee asks for more time or if the Minister thinks more time is needed for the process. It will not be suspended just to be politically convenient in terms of extending for another two years, out past the next election - that is not what this facility is about. At some point in the next nine months, or maybe slightly later than that, if necessary, we will be faced with an important democratic decision that the Government will facilitate and the Dáil and Seanad will debate and decide on. I look forward to that process concluding and I hope we will be able to make decisions that make sense and can find acceptance across communities and will also respect the international obligations we have made around the water framework directive and other commitments.

Most importantly, I hope we can have a sustainable outcome to the water debates that communities and the political system can accept is the right way forward, and that we can get on with actually financing and fixing the infrastructure that is needed to be able to provide safe water for families and their homes into the future. Once again, I thank Senators for their timely and speedy consideration of this legislation. We will enact it now and get on with the process.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister back to the House and commend him for the effort he is making, not only in this regard but in regard to the housing crisis as well. I am representing my colleague, Senator Jennifer Murnane O'Connor, who cannot be present today as she is at another engagement. She sends her apologies.

I welcome the suspension of water charges for a period of nine months. I welcome this legislation providing for the expert commission to look into the whole area of water charges and how we are going to pay for water, because we have to pay for water. As the Minister said, coming to a consensus as to how we do that is what this project is all about. Unfortunately, it is not going to be an easy task because the vast majority of the representatives in the Lower House are against the manner in which water charges were to be introduced. The whole concept has been badly handled from the outset, as I believe everybody will agree. The then Minister, Mr. Hogan, made a hames of it. The former Minister, Deputy Kelly, was thrown in at the deep end when the mess was created and, in fairness, tried his best. Now, the baton has been passed to the Minister, Deputy Coveney, and I wish him well with his endeavours in this regard.

I am in favour of water charges but my party policy, with which I am in total agreement, is that the infrastructure should be in place before any charges are made. However, we are where we are. I wish this project well and I hope it works. With regard to political consensus, no matter how logically the case is made, there are some people who will not accept it because it is not in their political interest to do so. That is another reality. From my party's perspective, we hope a reasonable proposition can be made by this expert commission.

I was sorry that Joe O'Toole, a former colleague in this House, had to step down. He is an excellent, capable and competent person. It is important to put on the record that he was not to be paid for doing that job, so if some people think he is losing out financially he is not. I wish him well in the future. I wish this legislation speedy passage.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister, Deputy Coveney, for outlining the rationale behind what is essential legislation. As I outlined in the debate last week, it is legislation that was formulated to facilitate Government formation due to the make-up of the political parties and the political will in the Lower House and this House also.

I want to reiterate my concerns with regard to the future of Irish Water. I feel this is something that was capitalised on to a large degree in the last general election for populist reasons by many political parties. It is a political issue, I have no doubt, but it also a societal issue.I hope this legislation will now give the necessary space, as the Minister has said, for mature debate on the requirements of the country, society and citizens as well as the need for quality water infrastructure in the country for the years ahead. We need to have a sustainable system that provides quality drinking water and treated water that does not pollute our rivers and bays. We need to ensure we do not have concerns around capacity in our major urban environments.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh relayed some of the things that have gone wrong in Connemara. In my area in Waterford, contamination occurs and people cannot drink the public water supply. When that happens, the people hold their politicians to account and hold the system to account. It is not a question of if things go wrong but when things go wrong with our water networks. If we cannot point to the responsible actions of investment, the same populist politicians calling for abolition of charges will have to be held to account.

I wish the Bill well and in particular I wish the independent expert commission well. Those involved will now undertake an important body of work. I mean no disrespect to the politicians in this Chamber or others but I genuinely believe there is more mature debate in many of our primary schools and among our children on sustainability in our water network than we have seen in the public discourse during the past year or two. I honestly mean that. We could learn more about sustainability and the need for a quality water network in the green schools in our country than from many of the popular notions we have heard in the public discourse in recent weeks.

The Bill will suspend charges for nine months to allow space and I accept that. I have concerns that this is a retrograde step, but let us give it space. I encourage all political parties to be responsible in their engagement and propositions. Ultimately, someone has to pay for this quality network. This will have to happen through the polluter pays principle, something we have agreed with our EU partners. We have Water Framework Directive responsibilities that we cannot abdicate, ignore or neglect. There are issues around the EU derogation as well.

I sincerely hope we can reach outcomes that the majority can live with and that can sustain our networks in future. Essentially, if consumers are not paying, it will fall back on the taxpayer again. It will fall back on those in the squeezed middle we often refer to. They are working people and PAYE workers. Some may think they will have a lesser charge because these charges are being suspended, but in fact PAYE workers will be paying far more in trying to sustain a network that literally has failed in recent years.

We need to grasp this nettle once and for all. I look forward to engaging in the debate in the coming months and I encourage others to do so as well. I thank the Minister for outlining the rationale and I wish the Bill well. I sincerely hope that at the end of this process the majority can agree at least that we will invest in our water network in a sustainable way for the future.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Billy Lawless, I welcome you back after your recent lay-off and I congratulate you on your remarks this morning.

Billy Lawless (Independent)
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I do not live here at the moment but I come from Galway. I remember eight or nine years ago when the cryptosporidium problem occurred and there was no drinking water in Galway for four or five months in a city that depends on tourism.

Since The Gathering tourism has increased by 15% year on year. A visitor cannot even get a room in Dublin anymore. Tourism is valuable and we must have a proper water system to support it. I remember farming 30 years ago down around Tuam. All those areas had their own group schemes. People were paying far more than €3 per week.

We must have water and proper water systems if we want tourism to increase, and that is happening now. We have been lucky in recent months and I hope it stays that way with regard to terrorism. Anyway, Ireland is a sought-out place and we have to have proper infrastructure and water for our people and for when our tourists come.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Caithfidh mé a rá gur thacaigh Sinn Féin go drogallach leis an bpíosa reachtaíochta seo mar nach bhfuil sa chás seo i ndáiríre ach cleas polaitiúil le tóin Fhianna Fáil a shábháil.

It is not often I agree with Senator Coffey on issues, but I certainty agree with him in this case. We all know this legislation is a kick to touch to save face for Fianna Fáil in light of the extraordinary public mobilisation on water charges. Fianna Fáil needed to kick this issue to touch politically for nine months to try to rejuvenate itself. It is clear, even from the statements this morning, where Fianna Fáil stands on water charges.

We have heard a great deal of talk about the new politics in these Houses as well as the need to respect the mandate and the need to put a Government together. I put it to those in Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael that if they really believed in that, then they would have put the issue of water charges to a vote in the Dáil and the Seanad. Maybe it would have been defeated, but surely that would have been part of the new mandate as well.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin is going to get rid of them in the North as well. Is that it?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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We have discussed that at length. I can go back in detail over that with Senator Wilson if he wishes.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I live eight miles from where Sinn Féin is doing it.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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There will be no discussion on that. That is for outside the House.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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The Northern Ireland Minister for Infrastructure, Mr. Hazzard, has once again stopped the imposition of water metering in the North.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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It is included in the rates. It is £1,500 sterling.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Those arguments are on the record. We have no wish to re-open that debate.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin is facilitating the Brits to the tune of several billion pounds per year.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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You can take those issues up outside the House or in a future debate.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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We are supporting this Bill because it takes the pressure off taxpayers, at least for nine months, who are at the end of their tether. We will support any mobilisation and any campaigns of the Right2Water movement to try to refocus political minds on what we regard as very unfair water charges and the unfair implementation of water charges.

The elephant in the room has to be the shambles that is Irish Water. I do not believe anyone in the Chamber could stand over the way Irish Water has functioned since it was set up. I note that in Connemara people are having water meters installed again. It started again last week. They are angry because water pipes are leaking and they have not been fixed. Other water pipes have not been buried, etc., yet, there seems to be plenty of money to continue with the water metering system.

There are major issues around Irish Water and that needs to be tackled as well. We have made these points on the record and we will continue to do so. It is with reticence that we support the Bill. We do so merely since it takes the pressure off stretched citizens. However, no one should be under any illusions: this is the new politics of Fianna Fáil forcing Fine Gael to put this legislation to the Houses in order that they can kick to touch politically. They have succeeded in doing that.

Frances Black (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister to the Chamber. I know he has had a busy week. I welcome the proposed suspension of water charges in this Bill. It is clear that the people are not going to accept water charges. They have shown this through the major demonstrations on the streets to oppose this unfair tax. The recent figures from Irish Water show a significant drop in the number of people paying water bills. This number will grow as people realise that these charges will eventually have to be scrapped, irrespective of the findings of the expert commission.

The majority of Deputies returned at the last general election were against the imposition of water charges and were for the abolition of Irish Water. I believe that a vote by democratically-elected representatives would be the best way to solve this issue. We need to find a way to use our current funds to make up for the under-investment by previous Governments. Let us look for opportunities to reduce waste throughout public services. Let us reduce our reliance on outside consultants and agencies and let us provide a water service that our citizens deserve. It is of the utmost importance that a referendum is held to ensure that water remains in public ownership.

I live in inner city Dublin in the Liberties. People stop me on the street. One of their fears is that even though the cost of water may be only €3 per week, the reality is that people have to pay for extras and it is all too much. The cost of going back to school is extraordinary, including books, uniforms, etc. There is widespread fear of the company going into privatisation. It can be rather daunting to have extra payments on top of everything else.

We charged for water in the past through central taxation. In charging for water we have a duty to deliver it for the people. I hope the water commission will find alternatives for us to the current regime, but I look forward to the day when we have a vote on water charges. I said it last week and I will say it again: I will be standing with the thousands of families throughout the country. I will be opposing extra water charges. It is awful for people who cannot afford it. In this context I am supporting the Water Services (Amendment) Bill.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I thank the Minister for coming to the House.I also thank him for agreeing to meet with cross-party representatives to discuss councillors' issues. That meeting is to be held tonight and I welcome the fact that the Minister agreed to it before the summer recess.

I do not envy the Minister his task on this issue. I sat in this House with the former Minister of State, Senator Coffey, in the dark hours of long nights in the middle of winter debating water services. We went through the issue, heard the views across the House and heard the views of the people. We witnessed the opposition to it but we saw the process being completed with the establishment of Irish Water. Our party stood by it. I believe Senator Coffey used the word "cannibalised" when referring to the election. Perhaps he did not, but that is what I heard. If he did, I agree with him. When I canvassed on behalf of Deputy Alan Kelly we witnessed the same event, day after day. Much of it was not to do with water but with other political agendas. As Senator Coffey knows, I know Waterford very well after having worked there for 13 years. I could name some of the people who were involved in stirring this up.

I respect the fact that people are opposed to paying for water. However, consider the figures for payment that Irish Water had reached before the discussions on the formation of a Government. They had reached over 60%. There was a reluctant acceptance that people had to pay for water in order to improve the infrastructure and to ensure that there would be a good quality supply, as was mentioned earlier in the discussion. However, where are we now? We have stopped the process, which is why I do not envy the Minister his task. That was the price of forming the Government. I envisage positions hardening further in the nine months of this process, rather than people coming together. Unfortunately, what I hear from people who are opposed to water charges is that they will be ready in nine months' time to oppose them again.

To sum up, we went through a process and reached the other end of it. We started issuing bills and reached a rate of more than 60% for payment. Then we stopped the train, put it into reverse and now we are stalling it in the station for nine months. That is not good enough. I wish the Minister and the commission well. Perhaps they will reach a meeting of minds but, as has been said already, the current Houses of Oireachtas would vote against water charges if a vote was put to them. That is the final arbiter on this issue, and we will arrive at that point nine months hence, two years hence or at the next general election. Some people were telling the electorate to pay for water but when there was a by-election in Tallaght and the result went the other way, they started telling people not to pay for it and said they would not pay for it themselves. That is the populist politics we are dealing with, as Senator Coffey mentioned earlier. Politicians of certain views, colour and political persuasion will tell the electorate anything it wishes to hear to get votes, knowing that they will not go into power to carry out what they promised. They refuse to go into power. Confronted with such a situation I say to the Minister, for the third time, that I do not envy him his task, but I wish him well with it.