Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We wish to raise a number of issues relating to some of the proposals contained in the Bill. I am not sure whether Senator Wilson wishes to make the main contribution on it. Schedule 1 states a person shall be disqualified if he or she is adjudged a bankrupt. We have serious issues with this. The rule relating to bankrupts serving in the Oireachtas has been removed so why is the provision included in the Bill?

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister of State is aware we raised our concerns about this issue on Committee Stage. Until quite recently, when a citizen of the State took an action to the Supreme Court, it was not possible for a citizen to stand for election to the either House of the Oireachtas, the Presidency or the European Parliament if he or she was adjudged a bankrupt. If a person holding any of these positions was adjudged a bankrupt, he or she would have to resign. This law has been changed. On Committee Stage I asked the Minister of State to seek advice from the Attorney General on the constitutionality of preventing a person who was adjudged a bankrupt or who entered into a financial arrangement with creditors being disbarred from sitting on the board of this organisation. Did the Minister of State seek the advice of the Attorney General in this regard or did he seek advice from the officials? My advice is it is unconstitutional to prevent such people from sitting on the board.

The answer the Minister of State gave me on Committee Stage was that it was normal procedure. I pointed out to him during the debate that normal procedures no longer exist and things have moved on. During my time in the House it was normal procedure to prevent county or city councillors from sitting on boards. There was no reason for this other than civil servants decided they should not sit on the boards. This was removed as a result of consistent objections on all sides of the House. It is equally wrong to prevent people who have fallen on hard times and have had to come to an arrangement with creditors, and in some cases who have been adjudged a bankrupt, from sitting on the board.I have been advised that it is also unconstitutional. Senator Ó Domhnaill pointed out that a number of well-known sports personalities who are currently experiencing financial difficulties could make excellent members of the board. High-profile former Members of the Oireachtas could be equally capable of contributing to the board but they will be prevented from doing so under this legislation. A considerable number of voluntary and professional sporting organisations are facing financial problems. Will the directors of those organisations be prevented from sitting on the board if they are declared bankrupt or have to come to an arrangement with their creditors? Will the Minister of State to explain to the House why he is preventing these people from sitting on the board? I urge him to reconsider and withdraw the ban.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State for bringing this Bill before the House. The importance of sports to Irish life cannot be underestimated. We see the role that sports play in every rural town, village and school in this country. The Bill will provide for the administration of sports in this State by establishing the Sport Ireland body through the dissolution and merger of the Irish Sports Council and the National Sports Campus Development Authority. It also makes enhanced provision to prevent doping in Irish sports. The establishment of Sport Ireland will result in the more efficient development of sports and the implementation of sports policy by bringing responsibility for sporting matters under one agency.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is Fifth Stage not Second Stage. The Senator should be brief.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge the Minister of State's efforts in getting an allocation of €40 million for sports organisations this year.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

While we are on the subject of bankruptcy, I was not happy with the answer I received to a question I put to the Minister of State last week. He did not give a full account of the outstanding legal fees. Do they amount to €100,000 or €2 million? Will the new body be liable for these outstanding costs? I would prefer this money to be spent on sporting organisations rather than used to pay barristers and solicitors. When is this going to stop and what is the approximate amount in outstanding fees? I ask the Minister of State to revert to me if he does not have the figures.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask for the Chair's guidance. I wish to refer to a matter arising on Committee Stage, namely, the appointment of the chief executive under section 22.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are speaking on the Bill.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is Fifth Stage.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are we debating the issue raised by Senator Wilson?

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are debating the question of whether the Bill should now pass.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Wilson made a useful intervention in regard to membership of the board and the prohibitions set out in the Bill. I look forward to hearing the Minister of State's response in this regard. I also welcome Senator Brennan's intervention regarding charges and liabilities. Perhaps we were remiss in not being more vocal on this matter on Second and Committee Stages. The amalgamation of the Abbotstown campus into the new body may result in the State taking on significant liabilities. Perhaps the Minister of State can indicate whether a preliminary estimate has been made of the liabilities arising from Abbotstown and other developments.

I accept the Minister of State's bona fides on the appointment of the chief executive. He indicated last week that the appointment would be for an initial period of 12 months, following which the appointment will be made void and the process will start again. I welcome the broad principle of this Bill. Sport Ireland will be good for sports, society and the economy. Senator Eamonn Coghlan spoke on the Order of Business about the role that sports can play in the fight against obesity. This Bill is part of that broader package. However, if we are trying to show that things have changed in the economy and in how we manage State agencies, it is not appropriate to directly appoint the first chief executive of this new body. At the end of his or her 12-month term of office, the new board will decide either to rubber-stamp his or her reappointment or to appoint somebody else to the position. I recognise that the word "transparency" has been misused and abused but it is important none the less in the interest of transparency that the first person to occupy this important position is appointed through a public process rather than in the backroom of some Department. Anything less would interfere with the signal that we are changing the way we do business. I have no idea who will be appointed, and I am sure a range of good people will be considered. However, the holder of this position will be a major player in the development and expansion of Irish sports and, as such, should be appointed in a public and transparent manner. If a public competition is held for the post, it will give confidence in the appointment.

I acknowledge the Minister of State's response to my question about whether organisations will be directly represented. He cannot pick the GAA for a seat on the board while ignoring the IFA or the IRFU. It will be difficult enough for him without laying down further restrictions on the appointment of the board. However, the appointment of a chief executive will be the first act of the new game of Sport Ireland. It should be a transparent, competitive and accountable process. When the HSE was first established, we would have thought it an usual way of doing business had the Minster for Health made the first appointment to that body without a competitive process.I ask the Minister of State to reflect on this issue. I do not expect that he will amend the Bill at this stage but we need a strong assurance that the first chief executive will be appointed in a transparent manner if we are to have confidence in the man or woman appointed to that position. The future of Irish sports requires a strong beginning without any ifs, buts or doubts. I worry that the method of appointing the first chief executive is not appropriate.

Eamonn Coghlan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a sense of déjà vubecause the issues raised this afternoon were already addressed by the Minister of State on Committee Stage.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a matter for the Chair to decide whether that is relevant.

Eamonn Coghlan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is why I said it is like déjà vu.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I allowed Senators some latitude but we are not going to have detailed discussions.

Eamonn Coghlan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Brennan raised the issue of the legal liabilities. The Minister of State addressed that issue last week when he indicated that the legal liabilities would remain with Sport Ireland. He also addressed the issue of the new CEO by stating that it would be a temporary position lasting no longer than one year. This will facilitate the process of transition. I presume this Bill will be signed by the President and enacted at the earliest opportunity. For the sake of continuity, a temporary CEO is being appointed for a one year term and it will then be up to the new board of Sport Ireland to advertise and recruit for the position. The board will decide who to appoint as the new CEO. I understand that no amendment has been tabled on Report Stage.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, notwithstanding what has been said by another Member, our party is not opposing the Minister of State's proposal.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a point of order.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We would like hear the Minister of State's response on a specific issue. With all due respect to other Senators' contributions, we want to hear what the Minister has to say because we will be making a further intervention based on his response.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was permitting brief contributions. Once the Minister of State has had an opportunity to respond, I will permit one or two very brief questions.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, no amendment has been tabled on the issue I raised it because the Minister of State agreed on foot the intervention of the Leader that the Bill would not proceed to Report Stage until clarification was sought from the Attorney General. There was no need to table amendments.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have no problem answering any questions but I will tell the House where my problem arises. I intend to answer the question Deputy Wilson asked last week. I am setting up rules for Sport Ireland but there are also rules for this House. If Members table amendments, I will have a reply prepared on them. We did not receive notice of any amendment. It is not as if the Senators opposite did not have an opportunity to table amendments. We postponed this debate to give them time to prepare amendments.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, when I asked to submit amendment five minutes after the deadline last Tuesday, which is not unprecedented, I was told that it would be impossible to do so. I am surprised that the Minister of State was aware that I was in contact with the Bills Office. When I attempted to submit my amendment I was told there was no possibility of extending the deadline. I had expected to sees hundreds of amendments given that I was unable to submit one 48 hours before the debate was scheduled. I abided by the rules of the House.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We called the Bills Office to find out if any amendments had been tabled because we did not want the bank holiday to prevent us from preparing satisfactory replies. Do not change the rules. I am not changing the rules. Senators were given time to submit amendments. If they had tabled an amendment today, I would have all the answers for them because I brought this Bill from the beginning to the end.

Senator Wilson asked a very serious question last week. I asked my officials to investigate the position with the Parliamentary Counsel and the Attorney General. The Senators opposite are such great parliamentarians that they allowed nine Bills through the House without asking this question. The provision in question was in each of those Bills but nobody asked about it. I am merely making an observation.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In fairness, I am raising it now.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was some discussion on Committee Stage on Schedule 1(3)(3), which provides for the resignation or removal of members of the board of Sport Ireland. Senator Wilson and other had concerns that paragraphs (a) and (b) might be unconstitutional. Having taken advice from the draftsmen in the Attorney General's office, I can see no basis for declaring the provisions as unconstitutional. These are standard provisions which reflect policies about the suitability of individuals to hold positions on a board. I am informed that these provisions have been included in a number of Bills since the Personal Insolvency Act 2012 was passed.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That does not make it right.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sport Ireland will have responsibility for current and capital budgets for sports. The combined budget of the Irish Sports Council and the National Sports Campus Authority amounts to more than €76 million. As members of the board will be responsible for the expenditure of this significant level of Exchequer funding, I do not think it is wrong to include provisions in the Bill on the suitability of members for positions on the board. Based on the advice I have received, I do not think any issue arises in respect of the constitutionality of these provisions. Other legislation containing similar provisions include the Child and Family Agency Act 2013, Water Services Act 2013, Competition and Consumer Protection Act 2014, National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Act 2014, Industrial Development Act (Forfás Dissolution) 2014, Education and Training Boards Act 2013, Local Government Reform Act 2014, Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014 and Shannon Airports (Shannon Group) Act 2014.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That does not mean it is constitutional or right.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was taken aback by the Minister of State's defensive response. If he is right, why is he so defensive on this issue? Fianna Fáil did not submit an amendment on the composition of the board because we were given an assurance that the Minister of State would seek advice. However, we do not agree with the advice.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Some of the agencies to which the other legislation refers manage huge sums of the taxpayer's money. The Minister of State indicated that the advice was provided by the draftsmen in the Attorney General's office. Was advice sought from the Attorney General rather than a draftsman or other official and, if so, did she provide a written response? Making deals between banks and people who owe money has been a cornerstone of this Government's policy on dealing with private debt. In 2013, the Taoiseach stated that the Government would do everything possible to ensure the banks entered into deals with those who owed money.Now the Government is saying that because deals were done or may be done, it will exclude those people from civic participation at the highest level in sport in our country. That is wrong. I have a list of sports personalities who are known to the Minister of State who have done deals with creditors, some of whom listened to the debate on this last week and others who have come forward since. These people will be excluded from even applying to the Minister of State or any Oireachtas committee to become a member of this new organisation.

I believe that, with or without the advice of the Attorney General, there is an issue in this regard. Senator Wilson has sought and received legal advice in regard to the unconstitutionality of this, but it is also wrong morally. It is wrong to exclude those people.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As legislators, we cannot say on the one hand that we want people to do deals with banks and, on the other, say that because people did a deal with the bank, we will exclude them from civic responsibilities. The Government cannot have it both ways and that is our point. If there is no change on this issue, as a point of principle we will vote against the legislation because we believe it is legally and morally wrong. From speaking to individuals outside the Oireachtas, I expect the issue will be challenged.

I urge the Minister of State to save the State some money by ensuring the proper advice is sought and received from the Attorney General. If that is not done, I propose this matter be deferred to a further day until that advice has been sought and read out in the House. The advice of a parliamentary draftsman may have been given in good faith, but the draftsman in the Department is not the Attorney General.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister of State wish to comment further?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have nothing further to add.