Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move:

“That Seanad Éireann notes the Consultation Paper on the Establishment of an Electoral Commission in Ireland published by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government in January, 2015.”

The Government is living up to its commitment in the programme for Government in this regard. The previous Government produced a document in 2008. Academics and other experts have done some work on the issue and have recommended that we look to establish an electoral commission, as exists in most countries in Europe. Could the Minister indicate the closing date for consultation? All-party consensus was reached previously and I believe we can achieve that again given that such a commission would be a significant undertaking and gives rise to a range of policy and organisational issues. On reading the consultation paper published by the Minister, I note it will look at international best practice, the commission's structure and functions, its relationship with other bodies, and the approach to be followed. Extensive legislation will be required in order to bring about the changes. Does the Minister have any dates in that regard? It will not alone affect politicians, as the administration of the new system will affect everybody who has a vote in this country. I very much welcome the public consultation.

It is a huge undertaking and it will not be easy. I accept it might be difficult for the Minister to give exact timescales and dates as progress will depend on A, B, C and D. Everybody has good intentions and we all agree that this should be done and must be done. However, that was the case with the previous Government. Does the Minister have a dedicated team to oversee the process? If he does not, he should have such a team to deliver it over a certain period. It might not be done in a year or a number of years but the Minister should set a date for the establishment of the commission. Achieving consensus is also very important.

The establishment of an electoral commission was reaffirmed by the Constitutional Convention and in April 2014 the Taoiseach confirmed in the Dáil the Government's acceptance of the recommendation. The Statement of Government Priorities 2014-2016 agreed that this would be done, but what was not agreed is a range of opinion on the precise functions to be assigned to an electoral commission and the roles that should continue to be performed by those who currently have responsibilities in this area. No decisions have been taken on what should be included or excluded and for what reason. Currently, a number of different bodies and office holders perform certain duties. Costs are also involved. It will be necessary to assign a dedicated budget to the commission. When I was a councillor and was trying to get money from A to B, it was common to look at the cost of producing the electoral register to see if a few bob could be shaved off from that area to put somewhere else or vice versa, one might think it needed more money because the electoral register was not performing up to scratch. When we discussed it at the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA, we considered whether the cost of carrying out the work and producing the register was reflected in the budget. Very often, a lot of subsidiary work was done by local authorities that was not included in the budget. We must examine best practice worldwide to ensure economies of scale are achieved. There is no point in just changing the system for the sake of change. The job must be done better and must be effective and cost efficient. It is considered that New Zealand has a good system in place.

I compliment the Minister on the consultation paper. To provide a focus to public and political debate, the consultation paper sets out a series of 11 questions and provides a lot of information. I would recommend that people who have not read it should do so as it is a very worthwhile paper.It provides a series of 11 questions and information on them.

Ireland is in a minority of countries that does not have an independent electoral management body. The consultation paper notes that two thirds of jurisdictions now have a system that is institutionally independent of Government. That is important as it must be independent. That is what this is all about, namely, to take it out of the realms of politics, local authorities, Government and councillors.

Should the responsibility for general election boundaries be run by an independent electoral commission or, as it is, the independent body? Who should be responsible for voter registration? Should an electoral commission have an oversight role in respect of the responsibilities of local authorities in dealing with local election spending and donations with the Standards in Public Office Commission being amalgamated into it? It is important to update the electoral register. We all have our own stories to tell about that. Sometimes they are good, sometimes they are bad and other times people turn up to vote and say they do not have a polling card but that they had one last year. Key problems have been identified and that one is one of the main ones that has come up. Other problems identified relate to registration, the use of ballot papers, voting and the type of ballot paper. There was an update with respect to photographs on ballot papers to ensure identity and realism in terms of voting to guard against fraudulent voting, and it has helped in that respect. However, the commission could examine other ways and means of ensuring that the register reflects the people living in an area in the year in question.

The UCD Geary Institute was asked by the previous Government to examine this issue and one of its recommendations in its preliminary study on the establishment of an electoral commission was that personal public service, PPS, numbers should be used for identification. I know the trouble we got into previously with the use of PPS numbers but this is a methodology that is used in other countries, especially for identification purposes with regard to the electoral register. I will not ask the Minister to answer in respect of that recommendation but it is one we could consider and on which we could have consultation. It is one that I would consider and it should be seriously examined because there is no better way to identify somebody if we want to curb fraudulent voting, but there may be obstacles to that as well. The Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government of the 30th Dáil held hearings on this. We have had hearings and consultations on this. Senator Mac Conghail has tabled an amendment to this motion to the effect that the commission would be established by the end of December 2015. I have no objection to that if it could be realistically achieved, but I have outlined all that will have to happen before it can be established and, therefore, I do not know if we can accept that amendment.

The electoral commission should be tasked to examine and advise on policy issues in electoral administration, including how to increase political engagement. That is important because we have seen our political engagement slide. The commission could be tasked with educating voters as we do not have such a policy and such education is left to the schools. There should be a body in place that would educate voters ranging from the young to the middle-aged. Everybody needs it. Such a body is needed to examine the issue of education, how to increase ease of access to voting, how to improve the system and to examine the issue of how surplus votes are counted. Personally, I might be satisfied with how surplus votes are counted. That issue always arises and it is open for discussion but it should be explained to the general populace. The issue of how surplus votes are counted always arises at an election count.. There is a question and there is the matter of whether that should be examined.

There is also the matter of maintaining the register of political parties. A further issue is broadcasting coverage during an election campaign, particularly during referendum campaigns. For example, with regard to the upcoming referendum, one person or two people may have come out against it and the issue of balance arises if the broadcasting authority has to allow 50% coverage to that side every time the referendum is given coverage.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator has exceeded her time.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This involves a wide remit but enforcement and resources are important because this cannot be done without that.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who on the Fine Gael side is seconding the motion? Can a Member formally second it?

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I formally second the motion.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator can reserve making his contribution until later if he wishes.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Senator MacSharry.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the House. What happened to the Seanad report? Why are we doing this all over again?

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Seanad report in 2008 did exactly what we are now welcoming as the beginning of a process of doing it all over again. What a waste of resources, time and the use of this House.

The Minister, Deputy Howlin, was whining in recent about the abolition of democratic processes with borough councils. We have had broken promises on electoral reform from this Government from beginning to end. We were promised new politics, which culminated in the pinnacle of democracy with the McNulty affair. We have had 63% of all Bills guillotined. I will wait until the Minister gets briefed on the Seanad report. A gap of two weeks between the taking of Second and Committee Stages, as promised by the Government, has not been provided for in 78% of Bills. Those were some of the political reforms that were promised. We have a scenario where often in politics people play the ball, and sometimes even the man, but as to why the Labour Party and Fine Gael sought to dig up the pitch in the ill-thought out attempt to abolish this House, I will never know. It was a disgraceful attempt to dig up the pitch. The greatest act of political delinquency was to try to abolish this House which the Minister abused as his own right to get elected to the other House. When he got elected there, he said we had to get rid of this House. He is here now wasting the public's money and his officials' time and resources talking about an electoral commission. The stones on the road know what needs to be done. He has the Seanad report of 2008. I am sure there is a room full of other reports that highlight the same things.

I will be supporting the amendment to the motion tabled by the Independents which proposes that the commission should be set up by December. There is no need for all the old rhetoric such as what we had for 50 years about the draining of the River Shannon and having another Sinnott report. We will still be here ten generations from now talking about an electoral reform commission. The reality is whoever comprises the Government of the day wants to do whatever suits them and to be able to do it without having to put it to the people, the Houses of the Oireachtas or anybody else.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Two wrongs do not make a right. I am not here to defend anybody. I have no difficulty in saying how stupid and wrong it is to be wasting resources like this. From a constituency perspective, no county boundary should ever be breached. I am in a constituency, as is Senator Comiskey, where Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim and Cavan will form one constituency. That is a disgrace. There is no guarantee for any of those counties to have a Deputy from their county representing them. It is a disgrace. It is not in keeping with the constituency. There was a ruling in 1965 but it should be challenged by any Government to ensure there is a minimum of one Deputy in each county and a minimum of representation that does not result in a county being sliced in half or in three, as the case could be, and it not having any representation. That is one aspect that should be stated as wrong.

As soon as the Ministers ditched the State cars and went on the bus to Farmleigh to impress us all, what did they do? They reverted to type. Four Ministers in Cabinet run the entire show. The rest are told to do what they are told and if they do not like it, they can get out because there are people who want to take their place. Sadly, that is the reality. Lucinda knows all about that. Dare a Minister go against the Taoiseach or Tánaiste on abortion and out they will go and they can set up their own party. That is what political reform means to this Government. It does not want any dissension, debate or political reform. Parliament is subservient to the Cabinet of the day and that is why the public has zero confidence in our political system.They will never have a sense of ownership of the policy platform until they can see the message they give to the likes of Senators Michael Comiskey and Denis Landy being delivered in the shape of legislation. In reality, they cannot do that because unless they can get to the four men up top, they have no hope. If party members go into a meeting in the parliamentary party room of the Labour Party or Fine Gael and tell the Minister they do not like something, they will be told: "This is what we are doing and this is why. Now get out." I know this because I was in such meetings when we were in Government and it was, sadly, the same. We got our answer in the form of 56 seats so it is stupid in the extreme to make the same mistakes again. However, that is the practice. Why? It is because Parliament is subservient to the Cabinet or the stronger personalities within Cabinet at a given time.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we focus on the motion?

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With the greatest respect, the Acting Chairman has an extremely narrow interpretation of the motion if he does not think this is absolutely in direct relevance to it.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator is also coming close to the end of his allotted time.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are the kinds of reforms that are needed. Instead of the reforms, however, we have the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin. He has so much respect for the Seanad that he is happy to look after senior civil servants and special advisers and break pay agreements in order that he can pay them as much as they want. As Senator Paschal Mooney said yesterday, however, the Minister will not even provide the necessary criteria for Members on all sides of this House to draw down the remuneration required for them to do their job. It is not a question of extra money but of providing the criteria which will allow them to be paid what they are supposed to be paid to do their job.

I am glad to have the opportunity to make these points, but what a waste of time and what a waste of space. The Seanad report is there and everybody knows what needs to be done, but the Minister insults us all by saying it is going to take years and we will need loads of consultation. Nothing will happen but we will spend so much on it. Senator Cáit Keane asked if there was a dedicated team working on this. Who are they and how many are there? What are they doing? What are their timelines? Are they reporting back? Do not tell me it is being done on the never-never.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Like the Senator's party did. It went on since 2001.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have no difficulty with judging the governments of the past. I am here now to hold this Government to account. I apologise for saying this to the Minister but Irish Water is another waste of money and time.

Can the Minister acknowledge that the people of Sligo matter as much as those in other counties? Does he want to push them out into the Atlantic because they do not have any resources? Is he saying he is happy to take their tax and spend it everywhere else, allowing Fingal County Council to keep €100 million on deposit while Sligo County Council closes its libraries? When is the Labour Party and Fine Gael going to realise that we are all Members of the Oireachtas?

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will have to ask the Senator to conclude.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are all citizens of Ireland. It is not for a Labour Party Minister or a Fine Gael Minister to say the people of Sligo can sing for it. We want electoral and political reform that is representative of the people, not more BS which costs the people's money and wastes resources.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There has been more in the past two years than there was in the past 22 years.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Brennan has indicated but the motion has already been formally seconded so I will call the Senator in line with the rota. The Minister has indicated that he wishes to speak.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, shall I move the amendment?

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, the Senator's amendment will be formally moved when it comes to his turn.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I not contribute?

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The motion has already been seconded. It was while you were out of the House.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I had urgent business.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Spokespersons speak first.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The problem is that it is not the turn of Fine Gael but of the Labour Party. The motion has been formally seconded so Senator Brennan will have to wait his turn.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I had a very urgent call.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there not a protocol whereby each spokesperson of each group may speak? I do not want to be discourteous to the Minister. Is our group next?

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

After the Labour Party, yes.

Denis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The only thing wasted so far in this debate was our patience listening to Senator MacSharry.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Senator Landy has been in the House as long as I have, he will share my frustration.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is jealous because something is being done now.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Senators to address the motion. I will be even-handed.

Denis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sure the Acting Chairman will give me the same leeway as he gave his colleague on the motion. I welcome the Minister and thank him and the Government for putting forward this proposal, which is set out in the programme for Government. It is true that it has been discussed before and brought to the stage of a report which the then Minister, Deputy John Gormley, produced in 2010, after which it was left idle. I hope the Government goes one step further and that the Minister can look favourably towards Senator Fiach Mac Conghail's amendment. We need to see more than just a Government commitment to discuss it; we need a commitment to act. I hope the Minister has some favourable words for the amendment in order that it can be withdrawn. We all know the difficulties in trying to put together a perfect system.

I will issue a word of warning about the register of electors. I have seen the franchise section in local authorities working on a register of electors. It involves a lot of work and many staff dedicated to the process. They have gone through the information street by street and name by name and it is still not right. That is because people change addresses and register at one address only to leave it later. The feasibility of having a registration system using PPS numbers needs to be discussed because such a system would not require addresses. We do not want to see somebody arriving at a polling station on the day of an election and not having a vote. We have all heard stories about this happening during elections. It is particularly distressing for elderly people and I know of one person, who has now passed on, who was 96 but lost his vote despite living in the same house for 60-odd years. For some strange reason there was no vote in the system for him and there was nothing I or anybody else could do about it on the day.

We did away with town councils because we thought they were not viable. I made the case to the then Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Phil Hogan, for the retention of town councils, as I did within my own party, and now we think they should be reintroduced. As a tailor would say: "You measure twice and cut once." If we decide to take this matter away from local authorities, we must have a better system to replace it, something we did not provide for in respect of town councils.

The costs must also be examined and there needs to be clarity as to whether the current costs of the Department and local authorities will actually shift and how they will be measured to move with a new system. Can we learn from Australia and New Zealand, who already have these systems in place?Will we see a more efficient system as a result of putting this in place? There is the issue of the filling of casual vacancies. There is also the issue of the distribution of surplus votes, which is always very contentious in the political process. There are many things which need to be examined. Unlike previous speakers, I think we need to have a discussion on this and that it should be in an environment committee. We also need to have another opportunity for the broader public and interested people to debate and discuss this.

We need timelines. I hope the Minister, in his contribution, will give us a timeline. This was included in the programme for Government in 2007. We had a report in 2010. No further action was taken. I do not want to see that happen this time round. I commend the Minister and his Department on bringing this forward but I want to see consultation result in action in a timely fashion. I hope we get a positive response to the amendment tabled by my colleague, Senator Fiach Mac Conghail, on the issue of timelines.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move amendment No. 1:

After “January, 2015”, to add the following:“and calls on the Government as a matter of urgency to establish an independent Electoral Commission before the end of December, 2015.”.

In my speech at the time, I cited core research carried out by the UCD Geary Institute, which Senator Keane mentioned. There was a commitment made in the programme for Government to overhaul the way politics works. The fourth report of the Constitutional Convention also looked at the issue. Senator MacSharry also mentioned the Seanad report. All of these lead to one thing: political reform. This Government's reputation will either be enhanced or diminished by its delivery of political reform. An independent electoral commission must be the pillar of any political reform. When the Minister was in this House in December, we did not put the motion to a vote. We took the Minister's word. I still take his word. I have an issue, however, with the extraordinarily bureaucratic way civil servants grab hold of initiatives. They grab hold of good ideas and weigh them down with proposals and consultation papers. This should be in place already. The Government will be in office for five years.

We had a good debate on 17 December. The Minister in his response to us was very conciliatory. However, he said that he would like to deliver heads of a Bill by the middle of this year and that, by late 2015 or in early 2016, legislation he would bring legislation forward and move it through the Houses. The Tánaiste had also committed to this. I am concerned that the Minister went on the record in January to say that the more realistic timeframe for the electoral commission to be fully operational would be ahead of the next European and local elections. This is why I tabled the amendment. I will push this amendment because I want the Seanad to support the reform zeal of the Minister. I want to support the Minister on this. I do not want my esteemed colleague, Senator Landy, to feel that I am being disloyal in terms of the issue of political reform. We are pushing this because I want the Minister to have a further mandate going back to Government. This is why our group and I are very serious about this amendment.

An electoral commission should be in place by the next general election or this Government will have utterly failed to have enacted any real political reform. This paper suggests that the process will be lengthy and states on page 7 that a commission will take a number of years to be established and will not be in place in time for the next general election. What a kick to touch; it is better than Johnny Sexton any day. It will not happen in 2019. We will be waiting longer and longer and the element of political reform will not be achieved.

As is pointed out in this very good consultation paper, international evidence has shown that an independent electoral commission is more cost-effective and provides for better democratic stability. This country would appreciate both of these benefits right now. Given the political landscape of recent weeks and months, Irish citizens would welcome greatly the role of an independent electoral commission when the time comes for re-election. Our citizens would look favourably on a Government which follows up on a commitment to reform. I agree with Senator Landy that this Government's reputation is at stake if it does not make the commitment to establish an electoral commission by the end of this year. While this consultation paper rightly states that the electoral system enjoys a high degree of legitimacy among its citizens, it will not last forever. The time to act is now when we have the space and, it is hoped, the honest commitment of the Government to improve our democratic system.

Senator van Turnhout spoke eloquently in December on voter registration. The answer to Senator Landy's 96 year old neighbour is to have same-day registration. This happens in states in the United States. I have seen it working at a local level. We have the technology. We had the ridiculous situation of having the former Minister, Phil Hogan, in this House arguing against a proposal we made to shorten the timescale between applying for a postal vote and the date of an election. It was ridiculous.

I recognise and welcome the focus in the consultation paper on accountability in governance. Given the function of an electoral commission, it is also clear that it needs to be independent of Government. It also needs regulation and transparency. These are paramount. This is a crucial area which needs to be considered. Independence, accountability and performance are the crux of the issue.

The paper also cites Laking's 2002 assertion that the decision to set up a new public body should be based either on considerations of improved economy, efficiency and effectiveness or in its contribution towards enhanced impartiality and public credibility in delivering public policy. This paper talks about starting from scratch, building it up and taking time. We could, however, use the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO. We could start to develop it slowly and migrate its responsibilities in order that the electoral commission would support not only local and general elections but also referenda.

Section 5 of the consultation paper looks outward for an international example of an electoral commission. It highlights similar ones in the UK, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. Political reform needs to be achieved. The Government needs to enhance its reputation by delivering an electoral commission. I am supporting the Minister's reform commitment and moving that an electoral commission should be in place before December 2015.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I second the amendment. I reserve the right to speak later.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to be back in the Seanad today. As my colleagues are aware, I was in this House last December when we had a good discussion on the Government's plans to establish an electoral commission. I said then, and I will say it again now: for me personally, and I say this genuinely and not passively, I would love to have dealt with this issue at the beginning of a longer term in this role. I would love to have five years in this job. This is an issue which is a huge priority and something to which I am personally committed because I believe it is necessary and has to be done. I feel very passionate about it.

In December I told the Members of this House that I was working on a detailed policy paper and would bring it to Government. I said that I planned to publish the paper for consultation. I did this the following month. I committed to that and I did it. It is quite a comprehensive document. It is a very good document. It asks an awful lot of questions which need a lot of detailed answers. This afternoon is the first occasion that Members of either House of the Oireachtas have had to examine publicly and in detail the contents of that document. I thank them for raising this matter today.

In addition to our discussions today there will, of course, be other opportunities for Senators to contribute their views. The consultation paper has been referred to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht, which includes many Members of this House. The committee has been asked to undertake a focused and time-bound consultation process. I will meet the committee next week and I look forward to that meeting.This is a thorough process. There are views on many of the issues we will discuss as part of this and it is not the case that the answers are wrong or right. Rather, it is about how we get to the best possible solutions and processes for the future. I thank the Chair of the committee who has taken a major interest in it.

I am glad to set out my intentions and those of the Government in progressing the task of setting up an electoral commission. It is important for me to hear the views of Senators, as legislators, because there are few issues more important to the running of our democracy than how elections are managed and run. There is general agreement between the Government side and most Senators on the need for an electoral commission in Ireland.

Denis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is a copy of the Minister's response available to us?

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will arrange for that.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will arrange for it to be given to the Senator. This was evident in December during our previous debate. However, there are a wide range of views on what exactly such a body will do and how it should work. A key lesson from international experience identified in the consultation paper is that significant changes in electoral governance ideally need to command broad political and public agreement. I do not see this as a Government versus Opposition matter. Rather, I see it as anything but.

Members of the Seanad and the Dáil, as active participants in the democratic process, are well placed to provide expert insights. There are also many academics, non-governmental organisations and individuals who will also have an interest in electoral reform. I look forward to their input.

Given its composition, the Seanad is in a strong position to contribute to policy-making on this issue. I ask Senators to provide their expertise in developing this legislation because many have shown an interest in this and many are present in the Chamber. It is evident from the motion and from previous debates in the House that Senators are more than willing to take on this challenge, and I welcome that.

As the opening paragraphs of the consultation paper make clear, every person in the State is affected by the electoral process. That is why today's debate is important. The impact of the process of change that we have embarked on will be felt widely over a long period. To provide a focus to public and political debate, the consultation paper sets out 11 questions. It provides information, analysis and options to enable these questions to be answered. It would be worthwhile if I set out these questions and commented briefly on each. If the consultation process can provide solid answers to these questions, we will have made a good start to the legislative process.

The first question, as one might expect, asks what functions should be assigned to an electoral commission. It is a very basic question but it needs to be answered. As a principle of good governance, it is advisable that the functions of any new public body are clearly defined when it is being set up. They cannot be loosely defined. These functions should then inform its organisational design from head to toe. The motive, purpose and goals in setting up the electoral commission, therefore, need to be clearly identified from the outset. Some or all of the responsibilities currently assigned to different bodies and officeholders could be assigned to an electoral commission.

The second question follows from the first in asking what roles would or should those currently involved in electoral management continue to perform. As a starting point, the consultation paper reviews proposals from Oireachtas committees, political parties, research reports and other sources. A number of common themes emerge. I want to bring Senators through some of these because they give an indication of the current levels of agreement on certain points. They also provide food for thought.

The register of electors features frequently, and we have heard contributions on it here and in many reports, instruments and recommendations. Most proposals see some form of centralised system of registration being managed by the new electoral commission, with it taking over responsibilities from local authorities. However, a recommendation from one body envisages the new commission overseeing the work of local authorities which would continue to have a role. We need to ask where we are going. There are many variations. We need definition to ensure that the gentleman mentioned by Senator Landy got his vote. That story is a disgrace.

Given the emphasis placed on this responsibility in many of the proposals, it is clear that improving the electoral register is an important driving force underpinning the desire to establish an electoral commission in the first place. The register of electors is an issue of immediate interest to many here, especially with the referendums coming up in May. This matter was raised by Senator Zappone. It is important that all of those who are eligible are enabled to vote. To do this they must be registered. Inevitably, some will not be or will forget to do so, which is regrettable. These voters, if they are eligible, still have the opportunity to apply for inclusion in the supplementary register. I want to make sure everyone knows that.

Returning to the consultation paper, most of the proposals from other bodies to date envisage the electoral commission taking on functions currently performed by my Department. However, a distinction can be made between the Department's operational and policy roles. There is a general coincidence of opinion that the operational responsibilities of the Department in respect of elections should transfer to the electoral commission. As the Minister, I am not a hoarder. If something needs to be transferred, I am only too happy to allow that to happen. The likely role to be played by the current Dáil returning officers in a new configuration has been considered to a lesser extent. This is a matter that we need to think about and address.

The Standards in Public Office Commission features prominently in the recommendations from the different policy reports and studies. It is seen as a potential starting point, with the electoral commission either being formed around this existing body or, alternatively, as having its functions subsumed into the electoral commission from the outset. We need to think long and hard about that. If we decide to do something, it should be done cleanly from the beginning.

The review of electoral boundaries and the role currently performed by the Constituency Commission is identified as a potential responsibility. It is an important and difficult area, given the constitutional requirements and the population pull towards the eastern seaboard. A role for an electoral commission in respect of local electoral area boundaries does not feature in any of the recommendations reviewed. Members of the Seanad may have a view on this.

Electoral reform issues are mentioned to a limited extent in the various policy papers to date. However, in one particular instance it was proposed that the electoral commission would have an advisory role to the Minister, something with which I do not agree. Voter education appears commonly and prominently as a possible role, something with which I agree. It is clear that there are different views on what the electoral commission should do. I do not expect everyone to agree and I do not believe there are wrong or right answers to many of these questions. However, I hope we can reach a significant measure of agreements on issues of principle in setting this up, and then we can move forward.

The third question posed in the consultation paper is what the cost implications would be arising from the assignment of functions to an electoral commission. The fourth question is related. It asks what the cost implications would be for the bodies performing these functions at present. The costs associated with different aspects of the current system are set out in section 3 of the consultation paper and are worth reading. I will not go through them as they outline their extent and nature.

The decentralised nature of electoral governance in Ireland means that expenditure is incurred by a number of different bodies and officeholders. Some of these costs are publicly visible but others are not. Local authorities, for example, budgeted costs of €10.1 million in 2014 to meet their electoral administration responsibilities, including for the electoral register. The total cost of organising the most recent general election in 2011 was just over €29 million. Costs on a similar scale arise at each European Parliament and presidential election.

It costs between €11 million and €12 million to run a poll for a referendum, not including the cost of work undertaken by the Referendum Commission. At the referendums held in October 2013, the Referendum Commission spent €2.4 million on its information campaigns.

The Constituency Commission which reviewed the Dáil electoral boundaries in 2011 and 2012 had costs of approximately €46,000. The local electoral area boundary review in advance of the 2014 local elections had costs of €56,000. The costs for both reviews related, in the main, to website maintenance, advertising submissions and the publication of reports. There is also the cost of running the franchise section in my Department, and there are ongoing costs for Dáil returning officers in maintaining local arrangements in readiness for elections and referendums.

Unlike other countries that have electoral commissions, in Ireland we do not have a full-time local infrastructure for managing elections. A key reason for the creation of new public bodies lies in their scope to improve cost-effectiveness and efficiency in the use of public money. Evidence internationally has shown that independent electoral commissions are better for democratic stability and are more cost-effective. Those are the facts. That is something that, for me, is motivating. It cannot simply be assumed that economies would be achieved in setting up a new body. Such bodies must be realised and put in place. It is possible that net savings may not be achieved, especially if new and additional work is to be assigned to the electoral commission.

It has been said that one cannot put a price on democracy and I wholeheartedly agree. However, one can put a cost on running elections and one can estimate the cost of research, analysis and voter education. Given the scale of expenditure in administering the electoral system and the cost of setting up a new body, financial considerations play a part in the debate.

The composition of an electoral commission is a key consideration. The fifth question in the consultation paper was, "Who should be the members of an electoral commission?". The sixth question, which I will add because it is related, is, "How should the members be appointed?". As the consultation paper shows, electoral management bodies internationally vary in their numbers of members. One aspect that has been observed though is that those with a large membership are usually less effective.

Some consideration has already been given to this issue. In 2008, as referred to earlier, the preliminary study on the establishment of an electoral commission, prepared by the Geary Institute in UCD on behalf of my Department, addressed this matter. The study recommended that the electoral commission should comprise a chairperson, who would be a judge or former judge of the Supreme Court or High Court; the Comptroller and Auditor General; the Ombudsman; the Clerk of the Dáil; the Clerk of the Seanad; and the chief executive officer of the commission who would be titled the chief electoral officer. This is one possible configuration. There are doubtless other views, and I would like to hear them.

In setting up Ireland's electoral commission, a question arises as to whether the body should include members from a political background. This is a sensitive question. Few know as much about elections as politicians, but should they be involved? Should ex-politicians be involved? I do not have fixed views on this and I would like to hear the views of Senators on this point.

The Geary Institute study that I mentioned concluded that "in our view, it would not be appropriate to have a member of the new commission who is a former member of one of the Houses of the Oireachtas, given the additional range of functions which the commission will perform". I can see the validity of that point too. On the other hand, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Constitution recommended in 2010 that the new commission should include former Members of the Oireachtas. Here we go again with differing views, but we need to come to some agreement.

Looking abroad, in the United Kingdom, four of the ten commissioners come from a political background, although with a detachment from current active politics, and maybe that is the solution. In Australia, Canada and New Zealand, political parties do not have a role in appointing members. In those instances, the background of the commissioners is expressly apolitical and non-partisan. I can see the validity of that too. Whoever the members of the electoral commission are, we need to ensure that they are selected or appointed in a manner that seeks to guarantee their independence. This leads me to the next series of questions for Senators to consider.

Questions 7, 8 and 9 in the consultation paper deal with issues of accountability, performance and audit. Question 7 was, "What mechanisms will be put in place to provide for the accountability of an electoral commission?". Question 8 asked, "What will be the respective roles of the Oireachtas, the Government and the public in the accountability arrangements?", while question 9 asks, "What provisions will be made to assure the independence of an electoral commission?". As the consultation paper makes clear, accountability of the electoral commission will be important. However, accountability needs to be achieved in a manner that is consistent with the independence of the commission in the first place.

Electoral management gives rise to competing priorities that have to be reconciled. In one international study, these were called the three conflicting imperatives of administrative efficiency, political neutrality and public accountability. These are in competition because no single imperative can be neglected, nor can they all be maximised at once.

Experience in other countries points to both the desirability and necessity of having accountability mechanisms linked to democratic institutions. These, for example, include formal reporting arrangements to a designated parliamentary committee; the identification of a specific government Minister as a liaison with the electoral commission - I am not sure about that; independent audit arrangements must be in place; and the publication of documents against which performance can be assessed, for example, a statement of strategy, budget plan and annual report.

In the other countries reviewed in the consultation paper, the head of the electoral commission reports regularly and appears before a parliamentary committee. This would seem obvious. There is a two-way communication process. Information is provided to the committee, issues are raised by members and questions answered. The electoral commission can also bring forward recommendations for change based on experience in implementing legislation and running elections. In Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom and New Zealand, performance measurement and reporting frameworks have been put in place for their electoral management bodies. It may be desirable for similar arrangements to be put in place in Ireland.

For Ireland's electoral commission, it would be advisable that an audit committee and an oversight structure be put in place. This has been the experience elsewhere. We have a great opportunity, in setting up our electoral commission, to learn from what has worked elsewhere. The experience of other countries can offer ideas, benchmarks and lessons. However, there is no one standard and no one best practice. There is merely practice and there are difference circumstances and different situations across the various jurisdictions I referenced. We must do as Kilmeaden Cheese does, that is, take the best and get rid of the rest, but we also need to add in our own flavourings given our own electoral circumstances in this country. We have a unique electoral system in this country and unique elections.

Coming to the crux of the issue, particularly my good friend and colleague's amendment, the final two questions in the consultation paper deal with practical issues concerned with the process of establishing an electoral commission. Question 10 asks, "Should a commission be set up on a phased basis, and if so, in how many phases?". I can see the validity of that. Question 11 asks, "What would be an achievable timescale to complete the task?". The lesson from other countries is that significant change takes time and requires planning, and that is not a cop-out for me. It took almost four years to amalgamate the current functions of the New Zealand Electoral Commission into one body. This was done on a phased basis, between 2008 and 2012. Establishing the National Register of Electors in Canada took almost four years, from commencement in 1993 to full implementation in 1997, not including the process of debate that took place in the preceding years. Upon implementation, problems were identified at the Canadian general elections in 1997 and 2000 - we do not want that here - which caused controversy and required further modifications. We need to get this right from day one. Any questions in relation to how we run our elections would be unacceptable.

As the consultation paper notes, the UCD Geary Institute study in 2008 envisaged a two-stage process in the establishment of Ireland's electoral commission. The principle of adopting a phased approach is consistent with practice that has worked elsewhere. However, this would involve making a decision on which functions are to be prioritised for inclusion within the electoral commission structure from the outset. That is a kernel issue and something on which the Senators might want to focus on in the debate. It is an issue that I want to focus on when I meet the Oireachtas joint committee next week and discuss what are the core functions that need to be prioritised for inclusion from the outset. Then we can look possibly at phasing.

Having regard to the complexities involved in changing the system of voter registration, there may be a case for addressing this as a stand-alone project in its own right or as a separate phase in setting up an electoral commission. This is a good idea. The management of the setting up of the electoral register is a project in itself that has a unique stand-alone role, and that is an important point. This would imply a three-phased process rather than the two-phased process envisaged in the Geary Institute study, but we can tease this out. Of course, all of this will take time and the job needs to be done right. I made it clear when launching the consultation paper a month after coming into this role that it was a significant amount of work. The establishment of an electoral commission will take a number of years to finalise and complete.

Clearly, it will not be in place for the next general election. If I was standing here in front of the Seanad in 2011, I would be say differently. As a student of politics, I am also committed to this on a personal basis. This is something that I believe in totally. What I am trying to do is ensure that the Oireachtas joint committee, to which I am giving a tight deadline, and the chairman probably is not fond of me for giving him such a tight deadline, will come back with its recommendations as quickly as possible. We will publish the heads of the Bill by the summer and we will start the legislative process then and get it done as quickly as possible. I cannot commit that we will have this in place before the end of the year. There is no point in me standing up here and stating that it will be in place. I will commit to engaging fully with the committee and as quickly as it turns the matter around, I will deliver the heads of the Bill based on what the committee comes back with because this involves more than Government. We will then start the legislative process and I will drive the legislative process as quickly as I can.It is not realistic for me to say today that this will be in place for the next election. I also do not think, from a democratic point of view, that it would necessarily be the right thing to do given the amount of change in such a short space of time. To be fair, I am not sure it is deliverable.

Establishing the electoral commission provides us with the opportunity to reform the governance of Ireland's electoral system. Unlike previous Administrations - I am in this regard not making an overt political point because I believe this issue should be above politics and is bigger than any one government - this Government has commenced the legislative process to put this body in place. It is something which I believe we must do. I admire the way in which elections in this country are run and I also admire the dedication of the people involved in that process. However, the process has not changed since the names of people like Arthur Griffith, Michael Collins, Eamon de Valera or, my hero, Tom Johnson, appeared on the ballot papers. We must move on. The story told earlier by Senator Landy in relation to the 96 year old is unacceptable. It cannot be allowed to happen again into the future. We must ensure that everybody has their vote. The myriad issues which I have outlined show why this has to happen.

I am committed to ensuring that once this issue exits the joint committee process there will be no delay in dealing with it legislatively. As Minister with responsibility for this area, and given my passion for this to happen, I will drive it to the best of my ability and ensure it is concluded as quickly as possible. It would be wrong of me to stand up here today and say it is feasible or possible to ensure it will be delivered before the end of 2015. I can say that once the heads of Bill are published I will drive the legislation through as quickly as possible. Depending on what has been decided by the joint committee, the commission will then be put in place on a part or full-time basis. How we deal with the electoral register may also be different. I will ensure that the legislation to drive this forward will be put in place for future local elections and referenda.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no doubt but that our sovereignty and democracy were hard won. People feel very passionate about that democracy. Since democracy is underpinned by an electoral process, individuals have a sense of ownership of it. All the questions and cautions posed by the Minister during the course of his address are a given. The ordinary citizen would pose the same questions and cautions. Those questions have been around for a long time. There is no doubt but that any reasonable person would not want to do anything precipitous that would in some way undermine the very democracy we are trying to save and, at the same time, protect.

Management of our electoral process is dispersed across a number of bodies, including the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, 31 local authorities and many agencies, including the commission of registration and the Constituency Commission. We have not become aware of this only in the past 12 months. It has been clear for many years that this is archaic and results in flaws in the electoral system. There is a barometer for checking how people feel about how things as they currently stand. Establishment of an electoral commission which will have overall responsibility for the management of the electoral process must form an integral part of overall reform of the political system. While that has become the mantra for many years, there are few people who are prepared to put their heads above the parapet and do something radical, if needed, and definite about reform.

It was interesting that the first target in terms of political reform, which amazed many people, was Seanad Éireann. People embraced the debate on abolition of the Seanad and realised that this was not the type of reform that was needed. While reform of the Seanad is required, the idea that any part of our democratic system would be abolished did not sit well with the people. That is why the Seanad remains. Balanced against that was the proposed reform of Dáil Éireann, which, it is clear, did not happen. While the number of Deputies has been reduced and the Dáil now sits every second Friday morning, that is the extent of Dáil reform. In fairness, we have not yet got around to the concept of a root and branch reform of our political system. This is one of the reasons that development of the electoral commission is way behind.

The question that must be posed is whether we are sure that the current electoral list is 100% accurate. That is an important question because that is the essence of the prop we have for democracy. It is clear that list is not 100%, which then raises the question of why that is the case. I am not trying to match the questions posed by the Minister; I am just saying there are questions that need to be posed. I recall a by-election in Dublin in respect of which turnout was 23%, which is pretty small. Turnout for referenda is not at the level we would like. In this regard, the question that must be posed is whether people are in some way questioning or losing confidence in the system. I believe that is more the perception than the reality. However, if that is the perception, then we face a serious challenge. We must work quickly to try to allay peoples' doubts or fears.

My next comment has nothing to do with any type of political development in recent years. Based on recent debates and polls, there is no doubt but that there is a sea change taking place in politics. The question that arises in this regard is whether this leads to stability or whether we should be using a franchise in a manner that gives us the best result. I am not always sure that public confidence at any given time is a reaction to a Government policy. I believe that is a perception. For this reason I believe the electoral commission is an important element of reform that should form part of general reform. This is one of those issues on which I think we should try to achieve unanimity within the Oireachtas.This is not an area for point scoring. It is too important. We would only add to the uncertainty in the electorate. It is looking to us to work as a team to mend whatever is broken. There will not be votes in either direction on this issue but I believe it is urgent.

The Minister’s questions, which he got from consultation, are the correct ones, but we hear those questions all the time. We need the answers. I am not saying we should do this before the next election although I wish we would but whenever we do it there must be a sense of urgency about the electoral commission. It must have integrity and resources. Reform must be revisited in a proactive way. The reform to date, and I am not referring to any Government, is not the reform people expect. If they expect something we should engage with them on that.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not want to be political but I have questions for Senator MacSharry who unfortunately is not here to answer them. The previous Government published a report in 2007-8 and nothing was done about it. Senator MacSharry was a bit harsh and hard on the Minister who is trying his utmost. He is a doer. He will ensure an electoral commission is established as soon as reasonably possible.

The Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht recommended that it be set up in 2010. I was not here at the time but there are other Members who were. It is necessary. Senator Landy mentioned a man in his 90s who has never missed a vote but did not have one in the last election. In my experience over many years, the keeping of the electoral register has been less than adequate and sufficient. I know people who have been on the electoral register for 50 years who boast that they have never used their democratic right to vote. Should those people, who do not feel a duty to vote, be allowed to stay on any register? We must take on that obligation.

My understanding is that if people in Australia and New Zealand do not vote in two successive elections, they are eliminated from the register. I am aware of people who left to live in England and the United States, and who now have teenage children, and are still on our registers. Should we stipulate that those on the register have a personal public service, PPS, number, or a pay related social insurance, PRSI, number? There are young people reaching the voting age who wish to register but there are others who never vote and have convinced their children of voting age not to vote. Something should be done.

I have no doubt the Minister is totally committed to ensuring the establishment of a commission and to bringing in legislation as quickly as reasonably possible. He speaks with conviction. I hope his wishes will be fulfilled in the not too distant future. I have great faith in him.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with Senator Brennan. He has touched on valid points about voter participation and the electoral registers, which affect democracy and are the responsibility of an electoral commission. It is good to have this discussion. Between elections is the best time to reflect on the institutions of the State and how elections are run, whether by Departments or whether they can be depoliticised. I believe in depoliticising the running of elections by establishing an independent electoral commission that is beyond reproach, such as that proposed in the 2008 UCD report, to which the Minister referred.

There is a crisis in democracy in the Western world. Research by eminent political scientists shows that political party membership is falling. The greatest political machine in the Western world in 1952 was the British Conservative Party, with over 3 million members. Next May, it will go into an election with fewer than 200,000 members. Politics is transforming, evolving, emerging and developing. The media has a role in that too. Some argue it is a positive role, others say not so, depending on which political scientist one follows. Irrespective of that, we live in changing times and democracy needs to change. We need an independent commission to consider all the facets touched on today and the valid questions posed by the Minister.

The commission should be established quickly but not as a knee-jerk reaction. It should be done over time and if that means not all functions will be transferred at once, so be it. Responsibility for election turnout, voter participation and electoral registers is fundamental to a commission. Election turnout is falling. According to Peter Myer’s research, the membership of political parties here fell by 45% between 1980 and 2010.The fall in voter turnout has not been as stark but, nonetheless, participation levels in political parties as a percentage of the overall population is in the region of 1.5%. That is much lower than in some of our European counterparts. In the isolation of Leinster House, we may think that participation in political parties is higher here than in other jurisdictions, but that is not so according to current research.

The electoral register is in a complete mess but that did not happen overnight; it evolved over many years. At the last general election and even in the most recent local elections, in my own parish I could cite 50 examples of people whose names were on the register twice, in Irish and English. Others who were on the register up to the general election of 2011 and had voted in at least seven elections, were removed from the register through no fault of their own. It is nobody's fault, but that is the way the system operates. There is a major difficulty with the electoral register. We cannot have a definitive voter turnout figure while the electoral register is in such a mess. It is therefore very difficult to analyse voter turnout or extrapolate the outcome of election results given the mess the register is in. A number of years ago, an Oireachtas joint committee made some good proposals for transforming the electoral register, which included linking PPS numbers to avoid having individuals on the register who had left the country. We should re-examine that proposal.

Some people from other jurisdictions may spend one weekend a year in the Republic, yet they find themselves on the electoral register and are allowed to vote. It is not right that such people can determine who are the elected representatives. That is not democracy. The electoral commission will have many specific and definitive roles to play, so primary legislation will be required in that regard. We can debate all the relevant issues when that legislation comes before us. I think the Minister of State is going in the right direction and I am glad to have had an opportunity to contribute to this debate.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, to the House. I also thank the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, for a comprehensive response to Senator Keane's presentation, based on the deliberations of the Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht.

The main focus of this debate has been on the electoral register and the question has arisen on the consultation paper as to whether an electoral commission should take on the registration responsibilities of local authorities. The Minister said that because of the complexities involved in changing the system, it may be a stand-alone project. I would be inclined to think that may be the way forward.

It is interesting that the rationale for establishing a stand-alone, independent electoral commission is multifaceted, but most advocates say it should be about addressing problems identified with the electoral register so as to bring about a comprehensive, accountable and up-to-date register. I am thankful to the Oireachtas Library for some of the information contained here. Interestingly, it states that a key problem identified with the register is that it overestimates the size of the adult population, opening up possibilities for the fraudulent use of ballots.

I listened to Senator Ó Domhnaill's interesting contribution and we know from experience that there are duplicate names on the register. The other aspect of the register is that electoral courts are held after the draft register is published. Local authorities then invite people to come before the council on a particular day either to get names added or withdrawn. There is more than anecdotal evidence to suggest that in some instances over the decades names have been removed from electoral registers for purely political purposes. In other words, people have gone into the courts and said: "By the way, that person isn't living there." One will usually find that the person advocating the removal of a name is of a completely different political persuasion.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fine Gael.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fianna Fáil.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That goes on, but how would one address it? Senator Ó Domhnaill is right in saying that the electoral register is in a mess, but the problem arose from the abolition of the rates.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Bring back the rates.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Rate collectors went around a county and were able to identify who was living where.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Depending on his affiliation.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The register was reasonably accurate; in fact, it was nearly always accurate. Senator Ó Domhnaill spoke about a reduction in the membership of political parties. There was a tradition in Fianna Fáil, and I am sure the same was true for the Fine Gael and Labour parties, that when the draft registers came out annually, a special meeting was held. People trawled through the register to ensure that those in their immediate parish, branch or cumann area were on the register. This was before the regime of the supplementary register. That structure was in place in addition to the rate collector system, but both of those are now effectively gone.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The rate collectors were all Fianna Fáil.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The rate collectors have gone but, in addition, the membership of political parties and their proactive nature at local level have greatly diminished over the past couple of decades. That is the problem we are left with, so how does one address it? I am firmly of the view that local authorities should continue to be involved; otherwise, the new electoral commission will have to be provided with enormous physical resources. I am talking about bodies on the ground, or else how will they identify people within those areas? We are talking about 2 million plus people who are eligible to vote. The Minister is right to say that this is a complex issue and one that needs to be addressed separately. In setting up the electoral commission, this work should not be taken away from local authorities. In fact, resources should be put into local authorities to ensure they have more accurate up-to-date registers, rather than taking it away from them and then providing the electoral commission with the resources. It is a half-way house and would be difficult to work in practice. In other words, if it is not broken, why fix it? Local authority structures are already in place so why remove this particular element from them?

In 2010, the fourth report of the Joint Committee on the Constitution of the 30th Dáil contained an extensive review of the electoral system and recommended that an electoral commission be established. It identified problematic areas including drawing up constituency boundaries; filling casual vacancies in by-elections; the method of distributing surplus votes during a count; and ease of access to the ballot box on polling days.

The method of distributing surplus votes during a count will have to come under the remit of the new electoral commission because that is the inherent flaw in the PR system. People have either lost or gained seats as a result of surplus votes being distributed, which are taken from a bundle at the far end of the constituency to where the remaining candidates live. In his seminal book The Government and Politics of Ireland, Basil Chubb highlighted that the distribution of surplus votes was the inherent flaw in the PR system. I know it is an academic exercise now but it is an interesting one that should be examined in the context of the new commission, as should ease of access to the ballot box on polling days.

We pride ourselves on being a high-tech country at the cutting edge of technology. We should, therefore, think outside the box in making it easier for people to vote. There are all sorts of international examples. In America, one can vote online, while postal voting is permitted in England. That has been expanded beyond what we have in Ireland.There is also a need for the electoral commission to examine the question of easy access.

The question of how we encourage young voters is a major issue that must be addressed by Government. The electoral commission would be the right platform on which to do that, and it would start in the schools. It is not enough to have very committed teachers doing the civil, social and political education, CPSE, programme, with which we are all familiar, because that only comes in at second year. Beyond that, those students have no further exposure to the democratic system or how it works. It is only done during the year leading up to the junior certificate. There is a need for a rolling educational programme in our schools, particularly at second level up to leaving certificate.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch. I welcome also the recent consultation paper published by the Minister, Deputy Kelly, on the establishment of the electoral commission. I watched some of the debate from my office and I was pleased to see many colleagues on the Fianna Fáil benches distancing themselves somewhat from the contribution made earlier by Senator MacSharry, who was very critical of everything to do with the establishment of this commission. There were bodies established previously that reported and produced good documents, but nothing happened. The Minister has given a clear indication here today that he is proceeding cautiously but with intent, and only good can come from that.

Our democracy is precious to us and as Senator Ó Murchú said, our democracy was hard won. The system we have in place has served us well through the decades, and we judge that by the clean transfer of power from one Administration to the next after every election since the foundation of the State. However, time has passed and our systems need reforming and improving, and that is the purpose of this electoral commission.

Much has been spoken today about the need to do something about the register. It is not rocket science. We have never had better technology available to us than we have now. We do not want to start a debate on whether we should use voting machines or stick with the old peann luaidhe, but surely we can devise a system that will ensure all our people can be registered in an accurate manner, thereby ensuring that the integrity of the ballot box is protected.

Registers in rural areas in particular are generally very accurate. There might be the odd case where the name of a person who has passed away or somebody who has emigrated recently is still on the register, but the urban registers are very inaccurate because people are more mobile in towns. They often move from one address to another. Some people ensure they are registered to vote; others are not so conscientious. The issue of the register needs to be addressed. I am not sure whether the local authorities have the resources to carry out that function in a timely fashion. In previous years rent collectors played a vital role in compiling that information. That is still done in some areas where local authorities are collecting rents.

The key issue that needs to be addressed is ensuring that the commission is independent from Government while still being accountable to Government, with formal reporting arrangements and other mechanisms for accountability.

The review referred to functions which should be transferred from existing bodies involved in electoral administration, including the returning officers at local level, the franchise section in the Department, the Constituency Commission in terms of the review of local area boundaries, and the new commission's relationship with the Standards in Public Office Commission.

The Minister said that the cost of running elections and referenda is expensive, therefore, we need to examine whether we are doing that in the most efficient and effective manner. We are dealing with public moneys, and we need to ensure we are doing that in the most effective manner.

Much has been spoken about the public's involvement in the electoral process. The number of people who turn out to vote varies from election to election but the figure is in decline in recent years. The ease with which people can exercise their electoral franchise must be examined. With the technology that is available it should be possible to ensure that if students are away from their constituency on polling day, they can still cast their vote. If somebody is away from the constituency on business, they should not be deprived of the opportunity to exercise their franchise. That is an area we need to examine.

In terms of the technology, we can now pay our bills online and by using our mobile phones. We can transfer moneys overseas from our accounts. We can do many things now with the technology that is available. As a lay person, I believe it would be a nice project for some entrepreneurial person to devise a system for us where a person can cast their vote on polling day irrespective of where they are in the country. However, we must have a system that can verify the person whose name is on the register, perhaps by way of a link to their PPS or other security number. It is doable.

I welcome what the Minister is trying to do. I urge him to keep to his indication earlier that heads of a Bill will be ready by later this year and that legislation will be put in place the following year that will bring the electoral commission on-stream. That will allow us to modernise our electoral system and everything associated with what is one of the foundations of our democracy, our voting system. I wish the Minister well in his endeavours.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The debate was very worthwhile. I compliment in particular Senators Labhrás Ó Murchú, Paschal Mooney and Brian Ó Domhnaill who contributed. Many reports have been produced on this issue since 2000 and many institutes, including the Geary Institute in University College Dublin and Trinity College Dublin, have done studies. One of the main recommendations from those is that there be all-party consensus on establishing an electoral commission because it is too important an issue for politicians to play politics with it. Somebody should go and tell Senator MacSharry how to get things done.

I am a member of the environment committee with Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú-----

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The voice of reason.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did I not compliment Senator Mooney, Senator Ó Murchú and Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill at the outset? It may be unusual for me to compliment Senator Ó Domhnaill but the voices of reason have spoken on that side of the House in terms of political consensus. There is political consensus on the environment committee also.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A coalition.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A coalition working together in the environment committee. I can give a commitment that we will speed up the process in the environment committee to make sure that we reach a consensus.I will pay. It was Senator Mooney who mentioned we should leave voter registration at local authority level in order to make cost savings as it takes up a lot of resources. I know from the 20 years that I spent in a local authority that it hires in extra staff and pays them extra each time.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They do not have to do that.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is extra moneys which could be allocated to the electoral commission.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why not take it out of the local authority?

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One could spend the same amount but give it to the commission.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One would spend more.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government is doing away with the local authorities.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The local authority does not send its own staff out on the ground with little notebooks and whatever. It hires in extra staff which means extra money.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is accepted.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what I am saying. As I said, when I spoke myself, some of the moneys taken into consideration for electoral spend are extra moneys that are under the radar but included as local authority expenditure.

On the issue of political background, we can all discuss it further. One can see that every business has a drying out period for everybody, be they consultants, corporate or whatever, and that should be the case. Just because one wears a political hat one should not be excluded from everything. I disagree that one loses all sense of reason just because one is a politician.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One gains an awful lot from being a politician. I admire the Ombudsman, the Clerk of the Seanad, the Clerk of the Dáil and the clerks of everything else. People are often busy and have no time to consider people like retired people who have many life experiences. Whatever their background, be they judge, juror, politician or whatever, they should be considered and that is all to play for.

There has been an awful lot of reform. The three speakers that I mentioned stuck to the debate. I shall not outline the political reform achieved by the Government. I have a list to draw from but I shall not insult this debate by going off topic. Instead, I shall stick to topic and say we should and must ensure we set up the electoral commission as speedily as we can but do it right. New Zealand set up its commission over four years and in two parts. Perhaps Ireland could do the same. If we establish part 1 and then part 2 we would then have to decide what issues to prioritise in each section. Perhaps we could achieve all this a little faster than four years. As the Minister said, he is a student of political science and therefore knows the importance of an electoral commission. He is going to work on it but he has said he wants to get it right and to get it done.

Senator Terry Brennan mentioned the Australian system. In that country, as well as taking people off the register, they are fined for not voting. Such an element would lead to great discussion in this country. The provision would wake people up and it is one issue to be looked at. Perhaps it would be too harsh on people. There are many reasons that people do not vote. One would probably spend as much money on investigating the reasons people did not turn out to vote as on anything else.

I look forward to the debate. I am delighted we had this debate today because it allows one to get a sense of where people are coming from. It is the initial example of us working together and in partnership to ensure we get the best for all people on the road and that applies to all of the different bodies. It is extraordinarily important, as a Member mentioned, that we get the work on the road and do it as speedily as possible. We cannot do the work just like that. As I mentioned, the work took four years in one country and, therefore, we must adopt a reasonable approach to the timeline. That is why the amendment tabled by Senator Mac Conghail is pushing it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When is it proposed to sit again?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.