Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to welcome back to the House the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Simon Harris. These are familiar surroundings for him. I now call on the Minister of State to make his contribution.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Acting Chairman. I am extremely grateful to the Leader of the Seanad for making time available for me to address the House on matters relating to flooding and flood risk management. It is a timely opportunity for this debate as there have been a number of policy developments in this area. As a country, we are still continuing to spend a significant sum of money on flooding relief. It is an issue that has impacted on every county and on so many communities throughout the country.

In the months since my appointment as Minister of State, I have visited many areas of the country that have been affected by flooding and have heard at first-hand the experiences of people who have seen their homes, businesses and farms damaged by flood waters. The loss and hardship that these people - and many others like them - have suffered is truly dreadful and while we will never be able to solve all the flooding problems in the country, much is being done to address the worst affected areas through the valuable work being done by the Office of Public Works in conjunction with local authorities.

A core objective of the OPW's strategy on flood risk management is that we have a robust, proactive and sustainable approach to managing flood risk in this country. Following on from the adoption by the then Government of the report of the Flood Policy Review Group in 2004, the development and implementation of the Catchment Flood Risk Assessment and Management, or CFRAM, programme is the central means by which this core objective is being achieved.

The CFRAM programme is a central pillar of national policy on flood risk management and its implementation is ensuring that Ireland will meet the requirements of the EU Floods Directive. The programme is assessing and mapping existing and potential future flood hazard and risk within 300 areas throughout the country, which have been recognised as being at potentially significant flood risk. These are known within the programme as the areas for further assessment or AFAs. The designated AFAs were selected following a preliminary flood risk assessment which was carried out under the programme in 2011.

The CFRAM programme will produce a comprehensive suite of flood maps for each AFA, which will identify the risk in those areas for flooding events of varying severity - ranging from frequent events, such as those we might see every couple of years, up to extreme events that might not be seen for generations. The programme will then look at all possible options to address flood risk in each AFA and, where possible, will identify viable structural and non-structural flood risk management measures to manage or reduce the flood risk within the AFAs and within each river catchment as a whole. The identified measures will form the basis of a series of flood risk management plans which will set out the medium to long-term strategy and a prioritised programme of work to achieve the effective and sustainable management of flood risk in Ireland.

The CFRAM programme is being progressed through six engineering consultancy projects commissioned by the OPW and in partnership with local authorities, with each project covering the main river catchments in the east, south-east, west, south-west, the Shannon and the north-east/Neagh Bann.

The programme is now at the stage of production of draft flood maps and the OPW and its consultants are currently rolling out a series of informal public consultation days on the draft maps in the AFAs. These are being advertised locally and I would encourage all elected public representatives and the public generally to attend these events wherever possible. While the maps have been developed using state-of-the-art technology and make use of all available information, local residents may have some information or knowledge that can further improve the flood maps.

This is an important point. No engineers, no matter how good they are, sitting at a desk in Dublin or elsewhere, can necessarily have the degree of knowledge that people who have been living in an area for decades or generations can have. We are eager to get this process right and to ensure that we can harness all that local knowledge and take it on board where possible. A further formal statutory consultation on the maps will take place early next year when all the draft maps are completed.

The CFRAM programme will not be simply a series of scientific studies which will not be acted upon. People at risk of flooding do not need a nice, glossy report to sit on a shelf. These flood maps will contribute directly and in a very real way to the better management of flood risk. These maps are being produced for 300 communities around the country covering 90 coastal areas and nearly 7,000 kms of river.

The maps can and will inform sustainable planning, to help ensure that we avoid repeating the mistakes of the past by building in flood prone areas. The State and Government will no longer ask taxpayers to intervene or to provide relief where development is undertaken in known areas of flood risk. This is an important message for local authorities. I have outlined that local authorities and the OPW work well in partnership. Once these maps are published, however, if people go ahead and choose to build and develop on lands that are known to be flood prone, those developments will not be included in a cost-benefit analysis when it comes to carrying out schemes. It is important for the planning process to play its part as well.

These maps can also inform the emergency response authorities to help ensure an effective response to reduce damage during flood events. They can also help to make local residents and businesses aware of the risk from flooding and, if so, to be able to prepare for flood events.

In addition, the management plans under CFRAM will provide a clear roadmap on how to deal with the risk of flooding in each area. The measures to manage flood risk included in the plans will have been developed to outline design following a process which involves a robust assessment to make sure the defined measures are cost-beneficial and that they will be socially and environmentally acceptable to communities.

A critical element of the CFRAM programme is the establishment of flood risk management objectives. The objectives set out what we are trying to achieve and will play a major role in the formation of the management plans. The objectives are fundamental to the CFRAM process because they will significantly influence which flood risk management measures, such as a flood relief scheme or a flood warning system, will be adopted for each community or area. They will influence the priority given to the measures for each community or area around the country and, hence, determine when the measures will be implemented.

The objectives are grouped under four broad criteria: social, economic, environmental and technical. The OPW is currently engaged in a public consultation on the objectives which commenced on 14 October and will end tomorrow, on 28 November. It is important that we get as broad a viewpoint as possible on the proposed objectives. I would encourage anyone who is interested to go to the CFRAM website and to make known their comments and observations, which can be done up to 5 p.m. tomorrow.

I wish to acknowledge the help of many stakeholders. I have had an opportunity to meet with chambers of commerce, business groups and the IFA, both locally and nationally. We have had a national stakeholders' consultation day in Dublin Castle. The role being played by community, business and agri organisations feeds into the process and stress tests it. Their members' concerns and input are important. I am grateful for the time they have devoted to the process.

The CFRAM management plans will result in a significant number of proposed measures to address flood risk in the locations covered by the programme. The cost of these measures will be substantial and it will be possible to implement them only over an extended time period. For this reason, the recommended measures will be prioritised on the basis of a multi-criteria analysis. This prioritised list of measures will essentially determine the medium to long-term capital investment programme for flood risk management in Ireland. There is no doubt that this process of prioritisation will be challenging, socially and politically, but it is an essential element of a properly structured and transparent flood risk management programme. The word "transparent" is important. When we start ranking areas of priority in terms of schemes once this process is completed, it is important that people can see the logic behind it. They must be able to see how we arrived at this area being No. 1, while another area is No. 161. Transparency in the consultation process of developing those criteria is important.

Obviously, we are not waiting and sitting idly by for the outcome of the CFRAM process to take practical action to defend against flooding. The Government has committed €225 million to flood risk management under its Infrastructure and Capital Investment 2012-2016 Medium-Term Exchequer Framework. This is a substantial capital allocation which is enabling the OPW to continue with its flood relief capital works programme in collaboration with local authorities. Under this programme major flood relief schemes in cities and towns such as Dublin, Clonmel, Carlow, Kilkenny, Mallow, Fermoy and Ennis have been, or are very nearly, completed. Other major projects are currently under construction at locations including Bray, Waterford and on the rivers Dodder and Wad in Dublin.

In 2015, we are aiming to commence construction, subject to procurement and statutory approval processes, on other major schemes including Bandon, Skibbereen, Templemore and Claregalway.

Many more schemes are in the pipeline. The largest scheme currently at design development stage is the lower Lee flood relief scheme, which will provide flood protection for the city of Cork, as well as Blackpool and Ballyvolane. The outline design of this scheme is currently being finalised following comments and views submitted at and since public information days held last year and earlier this year. I was in Cork with Senator Colm Burke recently to meet business groups to discuss it. This will be followed by a statutory public exhibition, which I expect will take place in February or March 2015. Detailed design of the scheme will be ongoing throughout 2015, and construction should commence early in 2016.

Apart from these major schemes, assistance is also available to the many areas of the country that are affected by more localised flooding events. Since 2009, the OPW's minor flood mitigation works and coastal protection scheme has provided funding to local authorities to undertake smaller-scale works to address localised flooding and coastal protection problems within their administrative areas. The funding allocated under this scheme now totals almost €30 million, involving almost 470 projects in total. The minor works scheme has made a very real and practical contribution to addressing flood risk in many communities throughout the country. Members of both Houses will have seen the practical application and often make representations to the OPW and work with the local authorities to arrange for applications to be lodged. Thus, a local authority can apply for an allocation of up to €500,000 to address what is termed minor flood mitigation works, although a minor flood can often cause major problems in a local community.

All works carried out or funded by the OPW, whether major or minor, are subjected to cost-benefit assessments, and only those schemes that are shown to be economically viable are proceeded with. Dublin city provides an excellent example of the value of good investment in flood defences. In 2002, tidal flooding in Dublin caused €65 million worth of damage. Since then, significant works have been carried out by the OPW and Dublin City Council on improving and strengthening the tidal flood defences, particularly along the tidal stretch of the Dodder river. I inspected these works a few weeks ago. At the start of this year, Dublin had a greater tidal event than in 2002, but the total damage on this occasion was less than €100,000. It shows the economic benefit of these schemes.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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In addition to its capital works programme, the OPW will continue to implement its programme of maintenance of arterial drainage schemes, entailing average annual expenditure of €17 million and maintenance of approximately 2,200 km of drainage channels annually. Perhaps I will return to the rest of my script at the conclusion of the debate. I very much look forward to the interaction with Senators on this important issue.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a chur in iúl don Aire Stáit as teacht go dtí an Teach arís agus as an obair chuiditheach atá ar siúl aige. The Minister is doing constructive work here on flooding. The OPW has always been a very constructive organisation and seems to operate well. Thinking back to former Ministers of State who have had responsibility for it, such as Noel Ahern, Martin Mansergh, the Minister of State's predecessor, Brian Hayes, and the Minister of State himself, they have been very involved directly on the ground in the various issues the OPW deals with, particularly flooding. I welcome the work the Minister of State has described, the studies being done, the public consultation and the CFRAM programme.

We look back in anger at those responsible for zoning land on flood plains because, by and large, it was known that they were vulnerable to flooding. It was no surprise to people who zoned the land that it would flood - for example, if it was in a valley with a river running through it, why would it not flood? Referring to a particular estate in County Meath, someone told me he used to shoot ducks there as a child. We did not need an OPW or CFRAM study to tell us that. That is the shame of those who zoned land. Every day, I thank God I was not a councillor. Those who zoned land on flood plains cannot have a clear conscience, no matter what the reasons for it. Since the first day I became a candidate it has been an issue. I react with deep anger when I see flooding in areas where houses should not have been built. There are many examples around the country. I am glad to see many new councillors on board and I expect, hope and know they are on board with the way planning should be done. Flood plains should be left for their purpose, which is to provide somewhere for water to go when heavy rain increases river levels. There should not be houses in the way.

Over the past few years, with our changeable weather, every so often storms and surging tides have inflicted severe damage on homes, commercial property and infrastructure. In some areas of Meath we have had flash floods, including in parts of Slane where we did not have floods before, not necessarily beside the river. There have also been flash floods in Ashbourne, about which I have spoken to the Minister of State. If he has an update on the situation in Ashbourne, I would be grateful. We have also had problems in Dunboyne, County Meath, and the OPW did a fantastic job there a number of years ago which, by and large, prevented the sort of flooding that happened before. Councillor Damien O'Reilly has asked me to ask where responsibility for the maintenance of the scheme lies. Sediment has built up, and the banks of the Castle and Tolka rivers are overgrown. This may be the only river system the OPW does not maintain. While I do not expect the Minister of State to have an answer directly, he could check it. We do not want these good works to become obsolete in a few years' time because nobody has thought to do anything about them in the meantime.

I pay tribute to the local communities, the Civil Defence, county council staff, the OPW, my party colleagues on the ground - Councillors Seán Smith, Damien O'Reilly, Wayne Harding and Stephen McKee - and other party councillors, who were out there with their communities and colleagues working on a cross-party basis, mucking in and trying to get some relief for the people affected in Dunboyne, Ashbourne, Duleek, Slane and Stamullen, where we had major flooding on that particularly bad night two weeks ago. Although Stamullen is not a place where people are used to flooding, there are problems there with drains and there was some frightening flooding.

We wish the Minister of State well. We want as much funding as possible. We want to put an end to zoning on flood plains and anywhere there is any doubt about flooding. There should be no pressure to zone or solutions offered. Councillors should not do it. It is wrong, it is dangerous and it still causes families the heartbreak of seeing a foot of water in their homes where it may have been avoidable.

Approximately two years ago, excellent work was done on the river in Drumconrath, County Meath - I think it is called the Neagh river, although nobody ever seems to be certain. I raised the need for it in the Seanad and the then Minister of State, Brian Hayes, undertook to do it. It was done, but it has caused problems elsewhere along the river, particularly at Corstown. Much work remains to be done. Apart from anger at the bad planning practices, we must also praise the people involved who are helping and trying to change things, the councillors, OPW staff who are working hard, county council staff, Civil Defence and local communities who were very active in County Meath two weeks ago. In his reply, could the Minister of State sum up the interaction between the OPW and the county councils, about which there is often confusion? The OPW has a direct role with the official OPW schemes. What is its role if a place floods that never flooded before?

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I agree with my good friend, Senator Byrne, particularly his comments on planning and what our predecessors across the political divide have done in zoning land on flood plains. They contributed significantly to the cynicism that people have about politics.

It is heartbreaking to see the flooding of houses that unfortunate people had purchased on known flood plains. This occurs because previous Governments and councillors during the years were not brave enough and lacked the conviction to refuse planning permission for such developments. In significant cases councillors overruled recommendations made by An Bord Pleanála that these areas not be zoned for housing. Similarly, people in coastal areas were granted planning permission to build houses too close to the sea, often following representations made by politicians. In many of these cases planning permission was granted in the face of opposition by planners. That is the negative side.

Since assuming office, the Minister of State, Deputy Simon Harris, has engaged positively with communities. He has a deep understanding of the effects flooding has on people's lives and shown great empathy for those he has met whose homes, businesses or farms have been flooded. We are moving into what I would describe as a proactive phase. Until recently, we reacted to flooding and dealt with its consequences. The mapping project in which the Minister of State and his officials are engaged is a proactive one. Let us identify zones where there are problems and implement a programme to address them. We should identify the areas at the greatest risk of flooding, start to address these problems and work our way down the list.

We all remember the scenes broadcast on television on 3 January and 1 February depicting the destruction of many homes along the coast and the erosion by the sea of significant portions of the coastline. As the Minister of State noted, this was an event that only occurs once in a number of generations. It focused the minds of the Government, the media and citizens on the need to implement a long-term solution.

We are an island nation surrounded by water and, as such, must invest in coastal protection works. Our European colleagues will understand the need for an island nation on the periphery of Europe to invest in coastal protection works. The Minister of State's mapping project, once complete, will equip the Government to make a case to the European Union for additional funding. The funding available in the future will probably fall significantly short of what is needed to successfully implement a comprehensive programme. For this reason, we will need to develop a partnership on the issue with our European colleagues.

I thank the Minister of State for providing funding for a feasibility study in the Clonahinchy area where a number of homes were flooded on 3 January and 1 February and his commitment to follow up on the study's recommendations. He will be made very welcome in County Clare tomorrow when he visits Ennistymon to perform an important function. I hope I will have an opportunity to brief him on a matter in Clehane, near Liscannor, where a similar feasibility study will be required to find a long-term solution to protect homes in the area. Much work remains to be done on flooding. During the Celtic tiger years, when we had an opportunity to do so, we failed to establish the necessary investment programme.

We must involve all stakeholders, follow through on the consultation process and take advantage of local knowledge. As the Minister of State correctly noted, engineers can go 80% or 90% of the way but incorporating local knowledge in an overall pathway will make a real difference. This is the type of consultation and engagement with communities that the people who vote for us expect. The Minister of State recognises this and is fully committed to acting in this regard. He went off script to make that point, which is welcome.

I am proud to live in a beautiful seaside area which attracts many tourists and generates significant tourism revenue. This year more than 1 million people visited the Cliffs of Moher, which are only a couple of miles from my home. This resulted in significant revenue and a considerable number of jobs in the general area. Unfortunately, there is also a downside, which we saw earlier in the year. What we need is a balanced approach and commitment from the Government which have been forthcoming. I look forward to working with the Minister of State to ensure we make coastal communities safer.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Simon Harris. My colleague, Senator Martin Conway, will be delighted to hear me make representations to the Minister of State to have the bridge in Ennistymon fixed. Perhaps he might visit the bridge on his visit to the town tomorrow. I made several representations to the Senator on the matter on behalf of people in my area. The problem, which is minor, has been ongoing for several years and I hope the Minister of State will look at it tomorrow, with a view to having it rectified before the 2015 tourism season commences.

The ongoing work on flooding, including the required mapping project, is very important. The Government has shown great commitment to dealing with the problem of flooding, as did previous Governments of all colours. There is nothing as bad as one's house being flooded unexpectedly or in the middle of the night. The Seanad debated this issue in February following the worst flooding in some parts of the country for 100 years. The debate took place during a nationwide emergency and €17 million was committed to address the problem in the week in question.

It is also good to debate the issue when we are not in the middle of the crisis. Thankfully, while we had severe weather conditions in recent weeks, we did not have major flooding. I propose to use my time to reflect on what is being done and what needs to be done. The Minister of State has clearly indicated that money will not be spent in areas where flooding occurs as a result of the rezoning of land in flood plains. If this were the only measure he were to take on flooding in his term, I would singularly commend him. Authoritative local opinion, including the views of officials of local authorities and An Bord Pleanála, has been disregarded in too many places in my locality and elsewhere in the country, with the result that housing developments are regularly flooded.

We still have a major problem with insurance companies refusing to provide insurance cover for houses that have been flooded previously. Carrick-on-Suir has one of the most successful flood mitigation projects in the country. The second most successful project is about to be completed in Clonmel, which also lies on the River Suir. Carrick-on-Suir and Clonmel were both destroyed in the 1990s as a result of flooding. I related a story during a previous debate about receiving a call from a cousin at 6 a.m. to attend the house of another cousin, since deceased. When we arrived on a dark morning in January 1995, the water was up to our waists in the kitchen and we carried out our cousin's belongings. This incident has stuck in my mind because it demonstrates to me how important it is that Governments, irrespective of which political parties are involved, deal with this issue as urgently as possible.

The late Hugh Coveney visited Carrick-on-Suir within two days of that flooding event and we set in train a flood mitigation project. The town has successfully withstood flooding for the past five years, including in January and February when the worst floods on the River Suir for more than 100 years occurred.

This is proof positive that it is possible to deal with these issues. There are a number of other things we can do outside of infrastructure changes and mechanical fixes. One involves afforestation. Currently, the rate of afforestation in the country, at under 10%, is the lowest in Europe. This day last week, Deputy Andrew Doyle, Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, launched a report on land usage. Integral to that was the need to encourage the agricultural community to increase levels of afforestation. Despite this, there is still a reluctance in farming circles to use lands for afforestation. It needs to be continuously encouraged as a solution, by virtue of the root infrastructure of trees, for the retention of water on land.

Re-afforestation is another big issue. I learned from Senator Comiskey, who being engaged in private business in this area is well versed in the forestry industry, that the roots of trees can now be eradicated while the trees are being cut down. An acid formula can be put into the root of the tree by the saw being used to cut the tree down. I did not know this and I am sure the Minister did not know this either. This means the fallow period is reduced. We need to get that message out there and we need to encourage more afforestation so that we do not have the same runoff from land into water, which we had previously, caused by less trees being on the land.

Following recent flooding, the systems in place by the Department of Social Protection are very much welcome across the country. Immediately after a flooding crisis, there are a number of services available to affected people. These include the provision of replacement clothes, food and furniture, funding for electrical equipment replacement and major housing repair. That is welcome but it is after the event. We should work towards preventing the event.

This week, at the committee on the environment, a presentation was made by the Irish Planning Institute. I have heard presentations by the institute at various events across the country, including when I was a councillor. Development on flood plains and how to prevent it is coming centre stage. Despite the existing legislation, we should constantly keep an eye on this. Development plans have to go to the Department before they are ratified. Changes have been made and some development plans have not been ratified by the Minister. If memory serves me correctly, the last time this happened it was in relation to the Monaghan County Council development plan. A greater responsibility should be placed on local elected representatives and a re-embellishing of the necessity to ensure flood plains are not interfered with.

During the terrible flooding in Carrick-on-Suir in the early 1990s, the late Noel Davern was a junior Minister in the Department of Agriculture. At the time, I put a proposal to him for a payment to farmers down river to set aside land. This would be for farmers in tidal water areas such as Carrick-on-Suir. I requested the Minister to look at this as a mitigating system. The late Minister, Mr. Davern, who was a jovial individual and with whom I got on very well, took it as a throw-away remark. I was extremely serious about it and I am still serious about it. We are channelling water and forcing it under bridges. The bridge in Carrick-on Suir was built before Columbus discovered America. That will tell us how old it is. That bridge sustains unbelievable pressure during flooding. Previously that water went into land and flooded land, naturally, down river. One half or a quarter of the money that was spent in Carrick-on-Suir is all that would be required to give the people who owned that land a set-aside payment. I ask the Minister to keep this in mind when dealing with projects resulting from this national survey. It is not a mad or half-baked idea. To echo the Minister of State's opening statement, it is something that I have discussed with the local people such as fishermen and farmers who own the land. It is something that can be done as a mitigating methodology for the future.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Before calling on Senator White, I welcome to the Visitors Gallery Fr. Bernard Shaughnessy from Tuam in County Galway who is paying his first visit to Leinster House. He is very welcome and I hope he enjoys his tour.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I also welcome Fr. Shaughnessy. My mother was Maureen Quinn from Tuam. I am delighted to see him here today.

I welcome the Minister of State. It is my first time attending here with the Minister of State in the House. I heartily congratulate him. He has had a meteoric rise, if I may so. Well done to him.

On coastal flooding, there are serious fears that Fenit Island could become separated from the mainland. On behalf of Councillor Tom McEllistrim, I wish to raise the matter of sewage seeping into the water regularly. The pipes are not able to cope with flooding. It is very serious and new infrastructure is required. There was heavy flooding two weeks ago. It is normally in January and February. It would be most helpful if the Minister of State could personally address the issue of flooding on Fenit Island. There is a beautiful 16th century castle on the island also. The island is accessible from the mainland but we want to ensure it remains so. I would be very grateful if the Minister of State could give his attention to it on my behalf.

I wish to raise the issue of the River Clare in Galway on behalf of Councillor Malachy Noone. I have visited the area a number of times. The Minister of State knows the situation there is very serious. Can the Minister of State give us more detail on when the intended works will take place?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator referring to Claregalway?

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. When will the works take place? A man died as a result of the situation. His house flooded and he took his own life about three years ago as a result. I saw the house which had been totally destroyed. The situation and the landmass is very vulnerable there.

It is also appropriate to mention the recent flooding on Friday, 14 November in Nutgrove Avenue. The flooding happened on the Thursday night. I was there myself mid-morning. I had never before seen flooding like that in Dublin. Having started a small business which is now a medium sized business, I know that every day in business there are challenges to be conquered. The flooding caused devastation to seven or eight small businesses in Ely House on Nutgrove Avenue. There are people working there who maintain cars, gear boxes and so forth. The machinery is very expensive and the place was completely flooded.

Having jumped the hurdles of business myself, I felt the pain they were suffering. It is hard enough for these people. They are self-employed. The Government wants them to keep going. Enough precautions were not taken on the Little Dargle River. It is a stream but it is called the Little Dargle River. It is a beautiful stream with crystal clear waters in Loreto Park. Mr. Robbie Campbell and Mr. Peter Phelan are still devastated about what happened to them. At the moment, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council are being very supportive and co-operative. It had workmen on the ground that morning.

They have been very co-operative with me in working on their behalf and will be putting in claims for compensation. A young man was fixing pianos in one of the buildings and my heart went out to him when he had to carry some out through the flooding. A lady who had set up a gym just a few months before had to take up wooden floor tiles. I empathise with them because I know how hard it is to do business in normal times and natural crises such as flooding make it so much more difficult.

Ms Philomena Poole is the brilliant CEO of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and one of the few female county managers in the country. I am hoping that council will put its heart and soul into helping to obtain compensation. It also forms part of the remit of South Dublin County Council. Two families at the lower end of Nutgrove Avenue are in the South Dublin County Council area. Their houses were flooded when water got in through vents at the perimeter. They were traumatised as a result.

Every precaution should be taken in advance of flooding. The Little Dargle River is able to make its way through Nutgrove Park and the culvert without being stopped by debris.

I appreciate the Minister of State's attention. I also thank the Acting Chairman.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State. I welcomed the report published in July on the lower Lee-Cork city flood relief scheme, which is long overdue. The report deals with the recent history of flooding in Cork city. In 1986 the Macroom, Ballincollig, Blarney and Cork city areas were badly hit. In November 2000 the same happened, as it did two years later. In October 2004 there was tidal flooding, which was different in terms of high rainfall volumes. Flooding also occurred in December 2006, November 2009, June 2012 and March 2013. Major damage was caused to properties on each occasion.

The most serious flooding in Cork city occured in November 2009, with attendant costs. My home place is one mile west of the Inniscarra hydro-electric dam. For the first time in 50 years since the dam was built, the road that divided my old house from the lake was flooded. It was a clear indication that water levels behind the dam must have been close to spilling over the dam wall if the flood gates were not open. That is how serious the position was. Water was allowed to build up in the previous few weeks and this was followed by heavy rainfall in November. Huge damage was caused as a result. UCC had built a brand new building to house its computer equipment which was located in the basement which was badly damaged. The paintings stored in Glucksman Gallery were badly damaged, as was the UCC sports campus. The insurance claim was for €25 million. The Cork city flood relief programme will come in at a cost of about €50 million. I hope it will come in under that figure, but I am being optimistic. That in 2009 the cost of flood damage to one institution alone was €25 million emphasises the importance of undertaking a proper flood prevention programme.

On the same night in 2009, walls were broken alongside the Mercy Hospital in Cork when water flowed down Shear Street into the courthouse which we had just completed refurbishing at a cost of around €24 million or €25 million. The courthouse was the last place anyone expected to be flooded. Computer equipment has been placed in the basement, but it was destroyed by the water which poured in. Substantial flood damage was also caused to many business premises which had not been flooded previously and it was all due to a wall near the Mercy Hospital breaking that night owing to the force of the flood waters which caused extensive damage. Businesses had to close because the cost of reopening would have been prohibitive.

I welcome the OPW's proposals for flood prevention works in Cork city. It is a comprehensive plan which it has opened up to consultation. It is important that people make their views known on what they consider to be the best way forward. They should become involved in the consultation process. I went to the open day held in Cork city hall and the people available were able to deal with questions or concerns the public wished to raise.

There is a long history of flooding in the Blackpool area of Cork, which reflects a lack of forward thinking on building projects. For instance, screens were placed in the river in Blackpool to stop debris from going into culverts. However, when debris accumulated at the screens, the water was forced out over the riverbank, down the road and into commercial premises. How did that occur? Would it have been better to place the screens further upriver on a phased basis, rather than having one at each culvert?

I do not understand some aspects of planning. Jury's Hotel was purchased by developers and rebuilt. They provided an underground carpark and on the night of the bad flood it was untouched. They was no flooding in that development, yet less than half a mile away the brand new complex in UCC was destroyed. Someone somewhere along the line did not consider the event that happens once every 50 years.

The new St. Finbarr's multi-storey carpark was built alongside the river. A brand new road was built to take traffic from Sharman Crawford Street onto the Western Road, which is under the flood level for the river. When the wall between the road and the river was built, railings were put in in order that when the tide was high the water would flow through the railings. These are simple things, but when those undertaking engineering projects do not consider the possibility of there being higher than normal water levels, adequate precautions are not taken to prevent flooding. St. Finbarr's carpark was built in the past ten or 12 years, but one cannot get in or out of it when the road is flooded. Someone has fallen down and such failings should be avoided in future urban developments. Even with flood defences in place, engineers should take into account what would happen if flood defences were to be breached. Are there adequate precautions on floor levels in new buildings?

There is a development proposal concerning the 500 acres of land stretching from Cork City Council's offices to Páirc Uí Chaoimh. The long-term plan simply states road levels must be raised by 3 m. This form an extremely important part of the planning process in developing the area which has huge potential. The plan drafted a number of years ago referred to 6,000 residential units, educational infrastructure and commercial development. However, as the area can be subject to flooding, it is important to do the right thing in undertaking the development. Those who designed the overall master plan had the foresight to know what needed to be done to prevent major flood damage being caused and that if the one in 50 year event happened, it would be adequately catered for.

I wish the Minister of State well in bringing forward the important project for Cork city. As the State's second city, it is important that business there is protected. We have a problem in the city centre at the moment in that we have created a doughnut effect. There is very good development in Blackpool with shopping centres and offices and it is likewise in Mahon, Douglas and Wilton. The result is a doughnut effect in the city whereby everything is happening outside the centre. Part of the problem is that if one rents a premises now on Oliver Plunkett Street or nearby, one cannot get insurance for the ground floor. It is therefore extremely important to have adequate flood defences if we want to grow and develop the city centre. That is why this is so important. While Patrick Street is not affected by flooding, some 16 ground floor premises are vacant due to the overall shortfall in footfall. That creates the wrong impression about Cork and we must do everything possible to encourage businesses back into the city centre. I note that four or five premises on Patrick Street are due to be occupied in the next few months and hope it is the start of a change. The key to the growth and development of the city centre, however, is having adequate flood defences in place and a planned programme and funding to implement that long-term plan.

I thank the Minister of State for the work he is doing and all those in the OPW for the enthusiasm with which they are now dealing with this matter. It is long overdue, particularly in relation to Cork.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for his contribution. I endorse everything Senator Colm Burke has said. There was a period when the lines "where we sported and played in the green leafy glade on the banks of my own lovely Lee" referred to sub-aqua sport rather than to any other kind. I look forward to the Minister of State or his successor singing the song when the scheme is completed. It is badly needed.

The matter requires some management. The Department must consider that there are certain times when the ESB must empty the dam, as Senator Burke has said, rather than to have it full and then to flood the city of Cork. To the outsider, it appears there is a game of pass the parcel between Cork City Council and the ESB as to who is responsible for what happened on that dreadful occasion. Cork is the country's second city and I commend the Minister of State as I commended his predecessor, Brian Hayes, for starting the programme.

Economists have a huge interest in this area. I remember reading an impressive book on water resource economics by Professor Otto Ekcstein of Harvard. The first adaptation of that thinking was when Colonel Rydell was asked by the Government in the 1950s to report on the Shannon where there had been severe flooding. His views were most interesting. He said the flooding occurred in winter when there was not much growing there. He suggested that a relatively small scheme of moving dwelling houses to higher points in the Shannon valley would provide most of the benefits without incurring vast costs. He thought that all the alternatives would cost too much. The Cork situation requires the Department, the ESB and Cork City Council to act in a co-ordinated way. The Minister of State's Department might be the one to do it as the other bodies did not co-ordinate on the dreaded night Senator Burke has described.

On page 6 of the document, the Minister of State lists schemes which have worked out well. I compliment him and his staff on the Dublin one. On the following page, it states that the damage was less than €100,000 from the flood in 2014 whereas €65 million worth of damage was done overall. The works that have been carried out around the city have provided a very good return. I hear similar reports from Clonmel and Kilkenny. Deputy John McGuinness's job as Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts is to dispute costs. He was annoyed about some of the costs and fish passes and so on, but they have kept Kilkenny in a state with which we are much happier. I note also Mallow and Fermoy but have not seen the Ennis one. The Cork one is definitely urgent.

There may be a case for co-ordination with planners on the likelihood of floods. There are 3,500 miles of sea to the west of us. During the floods over the new year, I saw interviews with people whose houses seemed to be on ground a couple of feet high beside the Atlantic. We must acknowledge those risks. There has been a great deal of coastal erosion between Greystones and Wicklow in the Minister of State's own county. People do not build there and the railway forms the boundary. We must have some common sense as well.

I hope that when we carry out an improvement, the insurance industry will pass on the benefit to people who have premises in the adjacent area. Insurers are inclined not to do so in the case of the work of the Road Safety Authority where we have reduced accident numbers dramatically and want to see premia come down. Where the OPW goes to a great deal of expense, we want to see reductions in the costs of insurance in places like Oliver Plunkett Street in Cork. We want to see the results for Kilkenny, Clonmel and the other towns also.

One of the concerns about some of the rural schemes proposed to the Minister of State were summarised. We could spend a great deal of money turning wet rocks into dry rocks. Where there is a land-price appreciation from a drainage scheme, some level of cost sharing should be considered. If it is successful, it enriches landlords and that is a measure of the benefits. There were some small schemes where cost sharing was considered in the past, but it should also be considered in respect of major schemes. Part of the problem we have all encountered since coming to the House in 2011 is that everybody is in favour of something for free. However, if a scheme benefits landowners in a certain valley who will obtain higher agricultural outputs afterwards, why load the entire cost on the taxpayer?

It is an important area and one the Minister of State has entered into with the enthusiasm he has shown in other aspects of his brief. The results can be measured and the benefit-cost ratios can be calculated. We can do a great deal of the work in advance. The immediate issue is that we know the rainfall level in the area west of the dams on the River Lee. Let us ensure that the area behind each dam has the capacity to avoid having to open sluice gates and flooding our second city.

One thing that was very controversial in relation to Dublin was the expensive proposal to deal with Clontarf. It annoyed many residents there that they would not be able to see the sea. A low-cost solution - and let us hope for the best - has worked so far. The damage caused by flooding on either side of Dublin Bay was much reduced in the beginning of 2014 and the flood control people deserve credit for that.

I note prospective schemes that were probably not worth carrying out as in the turlough areas in south Galway where streams go underground and come back up again. The solution lies with the planning regime in respect of houses in those areas. It would be extremely expensive to drain the turloughs and the gains are not there. It is a matter for discussion between the Minister of State's Department and planners. If there are areas where it is just not possible to protect people against flooding, why build there? That applies to certain coastal areas also.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for taking this important debate. We have debated the issue in the House on previous occasions following more serious flooding. Obviously, we have had flooding over the course of the last few weeks in some parts of the State as well.

I start with a positive experience which shows that flood relief measures work.

There was a huge investment in flood relief measures on the quay in Waterford, wrapping around the St. John's river, where the flood wall and a flood barrier was put in place on the quay. It was a part of Waterford city that was subjected to continuous flooding but since the alleviation measures were put in place, they have worked and there have been very few examples of flooding in many parts of the city.

We should first look to where measures have worked and then look at the areas where problems remain and invest. I know that is not easy because we have had planning problems in Cork and other areas where, unfortunately, development took place on flood plains, where it is much more difficult to solve the problems. The Minister of State's predecessor spoke at length about the problems in Cork, where he met with stakeholders across Cork city to come up with the best possible solution. I concede that is a difficult issue but it is one we must examine.

On the last occasion we raised this issue, one of the calls I made was that both the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government would have contingency plans in place to deal with severe weather, and that they would set up sub-committees. My understanding is that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has set up a sub-committee but the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has not yet done so. The Minister might look into that.

Many of the issues that arise with regard to flooding come under the control of local authorities but as a result of cutbacks in local authority funding over the past seven years we have roads which are in a very poor state, as is obvious to anyone who travels around the country, especially areas that are subject to flooding. Most local authority managers one talks to will say they do not have the money to keep the roads up to the required standard, and that is creating problems. Roads get washed away and damaged because of floods so we must ensure we maintain our roads in all areas. It is not just roads but bridges, signage and other infrastructure which is under the responsibility of local authorities. As the Minister knows, all of those have been subject to cutbacks and short-term savings in these areas lead to long-term damage. I would make that point with regard to funding.

I was at a meeting and therefore not here to hear the Minister's contribution but the issue of planning is important. He may have made reference to that already. Have we learned the lessons of the past in terms of building on flood plains, and what new legislation is planned by the Minister's Government to make sure we do not make the same mistakes again because at some point there will be a pick-up in development? Hopefully, at some point we will see movement in the private sector. Where new housing estates are built we will have more rezoning, and all that is necessary to meet the demand of citizens in terms of housing. That will happen at some time, although I hope not in the disastrous way it happened in the past for various reasons, but there will be private development at some point. What lessons have we learned from the past, from the Minister's perspective? What new measures from a planning perspective will be put in place by his Government?

I apologise again for not being here for the Minister's contribution but I will conclude the way I started. The Minister should look at the positive experience of Waterford city as a good example of where investment is made and we get a return. The people of Waterford and the businesses of Waterford have benefited hugely because of the investment made over a number of years in the city. I would want all towns and cities to get the same level of investment and the same level of protection against floods and flood damage.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have a lot to get through and I want to deal with it all. I thank Senators for their constructive contributions on this important topic. I have listened carefully to the contributions and it is clear that flooding is a problem that is at the forefront of the concerns affecting many communities throughout this country. Many issues and some specific local problems were mentioned during the course of the debate. I am aware of some of those already. I have taken note of those of which I was not aware and I will revert on them.

Flooding is a natural phenomenon. It has been always with us and we will continue to live with the risk of flooding into the future. The critical question for this House and for Government is the way we manage that risk. It is beyond question that we need to move to a more sustainable, planned and multidimensional approach to dealing with flood risk. That is a message and a call I heard from many Senators. This is what the catchment flood risk assessment and management, CFRAM, programme is about. We are adopting a strategic approach to managing flood risk, which will allow for the fullest possible assessment of the risks and consideration of the best possible options, both structural and non-structural, for dealing with those risks on a long-term basis. CFRAM does two things: it tries to identify the risks and then come up with the solutions to tackle and mitigate against those risks.

Many mistakes have been made in the past which have contributed to the flooding problems we are experiencing today. There has been insufficient co-ordination of the activities of the different arms of the State and this has led to bad decisions being made on where houses and business have been built. The development of a new strategy for flood risk management requires the fullest possible co-ordination between all the relevant stakeholders to ensure we can avoid poor decisions being made in the future. This greater co-ordination and consultation is happening under the CFRAM programme. As I said in my opening remarks and reiterate, the State cannot and will not continue to intervene to provide relief where development takes place in identified flood prone areas. Local authorities have a part to play. They need to step up to the plate. I have stood in a house that should never have been built. It is in a state of devastation. The family's lives have been destroyed. They have been moved out. That house should not have been built and, as Senator Byrne said, often local authorities are aware of the information. A lot of this is not rocket science and if local authorities wish to continue to go down this route, the taxpayer will not count such developments as part of a cost benefit analysis.

I made reference in my opening statement also to the need for greater understanding and awareness of the timescale for advancing with major flood relief capital works. It is worth mentioning again that it is not always possible to implement a quick solution to a flood problem. The engineering and environmental issues involved can be complex, and there is a process that needs to be followed. However, wherever possible, quick solutions will be progressed but in many cases the work needed to develop a full and proper solution takes a number of years.

I want to return to the issue of flood insurance because it was raised during the debate. That continues to be a difficult issue for a number of people and businesses experiencing difficulty in accessing insurance at affordable prices or at all. While I accept that insurance companies make their own assessment of risk in any particular case, and that is their own business matter, I cannot accept that in areas where flood defence and alleviation works have been carried out, properties protected by this significant public capital investment would not be able to receive a quote for insurance at a reasonable cost.

A huge effort has been made by the Office of Public Works, OPW, to engage with the insurance industry, and I have met with them, and agreed a format for exchange of information on completed flood defence schemes and the standards of protection offered by such schemes. This work was formalised in the production of a memorandum of understanding in March 2014, which set out the principles and arrangements to apply in the exchange of information on flood relief schemes. The OPW, however, can only go so far with the industry. The OPW does not have an oversight or regulatory role in regard to the insurance industry. I am calling on the industry to respond now. If the taxpayer is investing significant resources in flood defence schemes, and working with the insurance industry and making information available, we need to see progress on the side of the insurance industry. I call on them to do that today.

There is no doubt that the insurance industry has suffered substantial losses from major flood events in recent years, and I acknowledge that. Based on the industry's own figures the cumulative cost of the eight major flood events since the year 2000 has been €697 million. Against that, however, must be balanced the very significant investment made by the State in major urban flood defence schemes since 1995 and the huge benefit I outlined earlier, and which Senator Barrett reiterated, deriving from that investment in terms of properties protected and losses avoided.

Communities and the public in general have a significant role to play in the management of risk, and I am eager that we have their involvement in the CFRAM process. I again encourage people to make their views known through the online consultation process on the CFRAM website, which is open until tomorrow.

On some of the specific issues raised, regarding Dunboyne, I will revert to Senator Byrne on that. The basic answer is that it would depend on whether it was a scheme done under the Arterial Drainage Acts. If it was it is the responsibility of the OPW. If not, it will be the responsibility of the local authority or private landowner, but I will come back to the Senator on that.

The Senator asked the key question, which is the relationship between the OPW and the local authority. This is an issue that arises all the time. Local authorities are responsible for the maintenance of water courses and drainage channels under the drainage districts. The OPW is responsible for the maintenance of drainage channels and schemes done under the Arterial Drainage Acts. The local authorities can carry out flood works under their own statutory powers. I have seen that in Waterford, Bray and other areas but with OPW funding. The OPW has a close collaborative relationship with the local authority in terms of the development of schemes but it is important to remember that local authorities are responsible for urban drainage and for flooding which results from inadequate storm or surface water infrastructure. The minor flood works scheme is available to assist local authorities in devising flood solutions.

Senator White took me around the country; I think we were in Kerry at one stage, then Galway and then back in Dublin in a very informative contribution.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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She has a big support base.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State without interruption.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the islands, Kerry County Council needs to assess the problem and see if there is a viable solution. If it does, it is welcome to submit a minor works application which would then be assessed by the Office of Public Works, OPW, to see if there were cost-benefit elements to it.

I have seen the devastation experienced by businesses caused by flooding. In the case of Nutgrove Avenue, Rathfarnham, it is up to the local authority to devise a solution and then apply for funding under the minor flood works mitigation scheme.

I thank Senators Byrne and Burke for their acknowledgment of the good work of the OPW in this area. I am proud of the staff we have working in the OPW around the country and the positive contribution they make. I will revert to Senator Byrne on the recent flooding in Ashbourne, County Meath, with the most up-to-date information. OPW officials have met with Meath County Council to come up with solutions to the flooding problem there.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Was there any arterial drainage scheme there in the past?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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No, I would imagine there was not. If the local authority can devise solutions, it can then apply for funding for them under the minor flood works mitigation scheme. The OPW can provide a funding mechanism of up to €500,000 under the scheme.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We are grateful officials came to the town so quickly after the floods there.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Yes, they are very efficient.
I will look into the points Senator Byrne raised about the arterial river in Drumconrath, County Meath, which is known as the River Neagh, as confirmed by the Acting Chairman.
The Claregalway relief works are a major scheme and priority for my office. We have had many representations on it and are eager to progress it. Its EIS, environmental impact statement, is being evaluated by consultants hired by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I hope it can go to construction in 2015.
I was delighted to visit Cork city with Senator Burke recently and meet stakeholders there. I gave a commitment on that visit to return in January to have a further engagement on the flooding problems there. I am aware of the issues there and I am grateful to the Senator for outlining them again today.
Senator Barrett is correct that co-ordination between the various agencies is key to this. The whole purpose of the catchment flood risk assessment and management programme is rather than having an ad hocresponse, there is a proactive co-ordinated response. I am excited by the CFRAM process. I accept it will not be without difficulty but for the first time a national strategic approach to flooding will be in place.
I am eager we continue engaging with the insurance industry but also that it sees benefits for the taxpayer. We try to come up with flood relief schemes that are acceptable to communities, so there is quite a level of consultation in this regard.
I will check out the bridge in Carrick-on-Suir referred to by Senator Landy and look forward to meeting delegations with Senator Conway. Senator Landy's suggestion about CFRAM is not flippant. We will explore all options.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Will that include set-aside land?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Yes, as well as other measures such as natural flood plains, afforestation, deforestation and so forth.

I am pleased to hear of the success of the scheme in Waterford city. Lessons must be learned from the past and the taxpayer cannot continue to pick up the tab for failures to adhere to best planning practice. We are making as much information available as possible which is the purpose of CFRAM. There will be no doubt from the flood maps as to what areas are at risk. It is the responsibility of the local authority to respond accordingly.

Much has been achieved in tackling flooding problems. I pay tribute to communities which have worked with local authorities which, in turn, worked with my staff in the OPW on flood relief schemes. Hundreds of thousands of acres of agricultural land have been successfully drained to improve its productive potential while thousands of homes and other properties have been protected. Much still remains to be done and I will continue to give this area my full attention. I look forward to further updating the House on this in the future. My door is always open to Members for discussions on schemes.