Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2014 - Second Stage, to be taken at 1.45 p.m., with the contribution of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and all other Senators not to exceed five minutes. The reason the Bill is not due to be taken until 1.45 p.m. is because the Minister is not available until then.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I am disappointed to hear that. If the Leader was aware of the unavailability of the Minister until 1.45 p.m. perhaps he could have taken the opportunity to include statements on topical issues for an hour prior to that. If the occasion arises in the future, and if the Leader has been given sufficient advance notice, he might give consideration to such a measure, in particular on a Thursday.

The release by the ECB of the famous letter from the then President, Jean-Claude Trichet, has raised very important and serious questions about the role of the ECB at a time when the country was facing economic collapse. The then Minister for Finance, the late Brian Lenihan, was aware of the threat implied in the letter that has been released, that funding would be withdrawn from Irish banks that would inevitably lead to a collapse of the banks and, by extension, serious damage to the economy, which was already in serious free-fall. I am sure the public will interpret the letter in such a way as to suggest that the then Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, had little choice but to bow to what I can only describe as the bullying of the President of the ECB.

One can compare it to a normal bank dealing with the extension of a customer's loan. It would be an appalling vista for any bank to not only provide the loan but to then say that one would have to sell one's house and to take certain steps insisted on by the bank before it would extend the loan. That is exactly what the country was facing at the time. The questions that have been raised by the letter indicate that at a very minimum, the ECB should now instruct Jean-Claude Trichet to appear before the banking inquiry that is currently under way in this country, and that he would answer questions about the time.

I also understand that the letter in question is the first in a series of letters. At least three other letters were written to the then Minister for Finance, Mr. Lenihan, by Jean-Claude Trichet in his capacity as President of the ECB at the time. I call on the Government to release the letters into the public domain so that the public will at last have a full understanding of the choices that were then faced by the Minister for Finance.

The vote that was taken in this House yesterday was unprecedented not only in my time but in the decades this Seanad has been in existence. Not only did the dissenting Senators from the Government side cross the floor to support a Fianna Fáil motion but the entire Labour Party en bloccrossed the floor and voted against its Government and divided the coalition on that vote. I appreciate that the vote taken is not legally binding and that it has a moral rather than a legal force. I am aware, as the House will be aware, that legislation on a constitutional amendment cannot be initiated in this House and must be initiated in the Dáil.
Will the Leader explain to the House his intention and that of his Government to reflect the overwhelming voice of this House yesterday in regard to the holding a constitutional referendum? The Minister, Deputy Kelly, who has responsibility for water services, came to the House yesterday and acknowledged the importance of the vote, the will of this House and promised to convey that will to the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach. I understand that overnight the Minister, Deputy Kelly, was given a rap across the knuckles by the Taoiseach in regard to the indications of commitments he made that he supported the holding of a referendum.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is over time.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader inform the House what is going on in Government Buildings? Are we facing into an early election? Is there a split between the two parties?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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This is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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People are asking what is going on. I respectfully ask the Leader to give us some indication of that in his reply

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Before I call Senator Bacik, I am sure the Members would like to join me in welcoming to the Visitors Gallery Mr. Sonny Vu, who is a speaker at the web summit, and Mr. Nathan Bailey. They are very welcome and we hope they have a good stay in Dublin.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I also extend a welcome to delegates form the web summit here today. For next year's web summit, we might extend an invitation to delegates more generally to come into the Seanad, given that during the week we very much welcomed the fact the summit is taking place and is being attended by more than 20,000 delegates. We have commended the organisers. It is very good to see even a small number of delegates present.
In respect of yesterday's vote on the Fianna Fáil motion, the vote speaks for itself. The Labour Senators are very concerned that Irish Water would remain in public ownership. That is a concern shared across the Government. When the Minister, Deputy Kelly, came into the House to take the debate following that vote, he acknowledged the importance of the issue of public ownership. He gave a very firm commitment that Irish water would remain in State ownership and he said he would bring the decision on the motion back to Government and to the Economic Management Council, EMC, which is meeting this morning. We all very much hope and anticipate that a comprehensive package of measures will be announced on foot of the EMC meeting today and the ongoing deliberations to reassure people about the affordability of water charges and that Irish Water will remain in public ownership. That was the concern we had yesterday and the Minister acknowledged that, dealt with it very well and spoke eloquently in the debate. That was acknowledged by both sides in so far as we could during the debate given the high level of disruption. The Minister spoke very well and in his opening statement acknowledged the vote and said he would bring the decision on the motion back to Cabinet. He said that again later last night. That was a very clear undertaking by him.
In respect of the other matter Senator Mooney raised, the publication in today's edition of The Irish Times of Jean-Claude Trichet's famous letter to the then Minister, the late Brian Lenihan, I am not sure it was released. I think it was obtained by The Irish Times rather than being released formally by the ECB. I agree with the Senator that it would be very important, especially for the banking inquiry, to have sight of all these letters and that they would be put into the public domain. It was very instructive for anyone reading the newspaper this morning to read that letter in full, to appreciate the threatening tone of it and to see finally in black and white what it stated.
I thank colleagues who spoke on the debate on penal reform in the House last night on foot of a Private Members' motion I tabled along with my Labour colleagues calling on the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, to consider the two reports on penal reform that have been produced recently, one by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality in 2013 and the other by the Minister's strategic review group. We had a very good debate. The Seanad was united in calling on the Minister to implement progressive recommendations in the report. The Minister of State, Deputy Dara Murphy, who took the debate for the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, gave a very good response to the debate in which he laid out a number of commitments around implementation. I will be asking for another debate on this issue in perhaps six or eight months time to see what progress has been made in implementing the recommendations.
Senator Conway and I attended the launch yesterday of Ruhama's annual report for 2013 and I was privileged to launch the report in place of the Minister. It was very moving to hear the stories from front-line staff in Ruhama about working with women in prostitution who number 2,500 during the 25 years Ruhama has been in existence. We all joined in calling for a change in the law to ensure the purchase of sex is criminalised in line with the justice committee report from last year.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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Senator Bacik mentioned we might debate Irish Water again and I agree with what she said about the Minister, Deputy Kelly. If the approach he took had been the one adopted when this debate commenced, we would not be in the situation we are in now. When he introduced the Taxi Regulation Bill, he accepted many amendments and also tabled many amendments. Amendments to the water services legislation were comprehensively refused by the then Minister and we could see where that would end up. The notion of such equity investment off the balance sheet is a piece of economic hocus-pocus and I do not know why the Government bought into it. It is causing the problem. There are serious equity issues. A family of four on an income of €100,000 would pay approximately 19 times more income tax than a family on an income of €15,000. There is not that degree of progression in terms of the water tax, which is the reason people on low incomes with hardly any disposable income are protesting. It is regressive, it is like the poll tax and is based on economies of scale. The numbers in the McLoughlin report show that Leitrim, which is the smallest county, has one of the least leakages at 36%. Large counties such as Mayo, Galway, Donegal, Cork and Tipperary have ten to 15 percentage points more in leakages. If the Government is proceeding on the basis that small is ugly and big is beautiful and that we need one big organisation, that is not shown by the data. That aspect must discussed also.

I draw attention to the matters discussed at yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications chaired by Deputy John O'Mahony. I am glad that delegates from the Web Summit are present in the Visitors Gallery. The postcode system that Ireland is adopting was dismissed by everyone yesterday as being massively expensive and useless. The numbers are not sequential, is hugely expensive and is outdated technology. We have the technology that can recognise where letters addressed to Clones should go. There is no need to add seven digits. Concern has been expressed by people, including Deputy Olivia Mitchell, about the tendering process and the continuous payment for this outdated technology to a company which apparently was a consultant on the project. Let us not have two scenarios like Irish Water happening at the same time. I ask the Minister, Deputy White, come into the House to address this. We asked the former Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, to come into the House before we signed up for this system to outline what it is supposed to do. The view of the Freight Transport Association, the industry involved, unanimously was that the system was of no use and that the numbers are not sequential. There are also views from those in the civil rights sector that it will disclose information about citizens which should not be available rather like the request for PPS number in the case of Irish Water. I call for a debate on the postcode system before it ends up as an another economic disaster.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I echo what Senator Bacik said about the launch of the Ruhama report yesterday. I know people are very busy and Irish Water is a very important topic but I was disappointed that only two Oireachtas Members attended the launch of this fundamental issue of human rights. Irish Water is an important issue but the way women in prostitution are treated and trafficked into this country is a much more fundamental issue. The launch was held down the road in the Alexander Hotel and there was no excuse for there not being a higher number of Oireachtas Members in attendance. Having echoed my disappointment about that, I commend Ruhama on the amazing work it has done during the past 25 years. I have no doubt it has saved the lives of many women and has helped many women get out of prostitution. It is my contention and the contention of studies internationally that no woman enters prostitution as a free choice. It is always due to circumstances that are outside that person's control.

Unfortunately, the end result is drug abuse, violence and, in too many cases, young ladies losing their lives.

With this in mind, it is appropriate that the House should debate Ruhama's report and the work it has done for the past 25 years in order to put pressure on the Minister for Justice and Equality to introduce the legislation recommended by the justice committee that would criminalise the users of prostitution and decriminalise the unfortunate people who find themselves in prostitution. The committee published a ground-breaking report, but it has been sitting on the Minister's desk. I do not doubt her honour or integrity but, through circumstances outside her control, the lifetime of the Government might not be as long as we would like it to be. This issue needs to be addressed urgently.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator Bacik, in that an invitation should be sent to the group to attend the Houses during next year's web summit. I am not referring to all of the 20,000 people. I met the group last night. The city was humming. Business has been created. I wish to pay tribute to Mr. Paddy Cosgrave who initiated the summit.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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He is a great lad.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Government and President should commend him on his contribution. I met one of the exhibitors from Roscommon. She was networking in the city last night, in which regard we assisted her. Seeing that number of people displaying such good behaviour and with such spending power was a most exhilarating experience. Senator Brennan voiced his difficulty with hotels, which was fair enough, but people last night told me that the cost was competitive compared with other cities. We must allow for that as well. The web people have very deep pockets and are well funded, so I am sure that they are happy and enjoying themselves in Dublin.
I rise to discuss the letter published today by Mr. Cliff Taylor. The entire group of letters should be published by the Government, even though doing so would not seem to be in its interests. According to The Irish Times, Mr. Jean-Claude Trichet, then president of the European Central Bank, stated on 19 November 2010 that "further emergency liquidity assistance ... would not be provided for the Irish banking system unless Ireland applied for a bailout." On 18 November, Professor Patrick Honohan jumped the gun for his own reasons and appeared on "Morning Ireland" to pressure the Government into accepting Mr. Trichet's diktat. At that point, I believe-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is this relevant to the Order of Business?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is very relevant. The ongoing inquiry is a waste of funds, given how much information is becoming public. I was with Mr. Brian Lenihan when Professor Honohan rang from Frankfurt demanding that a Cabinet meeting be called. Brian Lenihan was not the Taoiseach and could not do so. He returned to our table at that point. I know exactly how the event happened. Brian Lenihan was making a last ditch attempt to burn the bondholders, but that was refused by Mr. Trichet, who had previously indicated that he would give some concession. The Government was pushed into a bailout on 21 November. History will show what really happened. Some 58 members of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party lost their seats as a result of those events.

John Whelan (Labour)
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There were far worse consequences.
I echo the sentiments voiced by Senators Bacik, Mooney and Barrett regarding the House's debate yesterday on Irish Water. I commend the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, on the good grace, dignity, poise and humility he displayed. He put his hands up and acknowledged that unacceptable mistakes had been made in the establishment and conduct of Irish Water. The House marked itself out on what was an historic day. Yesterday showed that we could think for ourselves and were not just the Government's puppets, but it did not necessarily reflect a split on the Government side of the House. I am certain that my Fine Gael colleagues are every bit as committed to retaining Irish Water in public ownership as we in the Labour Party and others are. However, there is a difference of opinion as to how best to achieve that. I am not a legal expert, but some argue that public ownership should be enshrined in the Constitution. I agree with Mr. Jack O'Connor of SIPTU and others in that regard. Elsewhere, people argue that such a measure could lead to unacceptable, unfortunate and "unforeseen" consequences. I would argue that there could be terrible unforeseen consequences of not doing so.
Will the Leader reconvene the debate at the earliest juncture so that we might have a proper and full discourse? Some 20 Senators had indicated their wish to speak, but most were denied that opportunity due to a blatant abuse of privilege and the blackguarding by one particular Member of the Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach. That is not acceptable.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

John Whelan (Labour)
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Yes. Can anyone explain to me how we can fix or replace lead pipes, stop pumping raw sewage into our rivers, streams and seas, replace 490,000 septic tanks, secure a sustainable water supply for this city, build new reservoirs and ensure a safe supply of water for companies like those attending the web summit about which we have been boasting without investing in a creaking Victorian infrastructure that is breaking at the seams or establishing an entity like Irish Water, one that is run properly and applies a fair and affordable water charge? It would be reckless and politically dishonest to try to fool people into thinking one could get that money without setting up Irish Water or applying a fair and affordable charge.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator could make those points during the debate.

John Whelan (Labour)
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We should reconvene the debate so that the House might continue teasing out these issues.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

John Whelan (Labour)
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We do not all have to agree, but we should at least show respect for the other person's perspective until we arrive at the right solution for the country's good.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I agree with a great deal of Senator Whelan's comments. Regrettably, many of us did not get an opportunity to debate the matter yesterday. I was impressed by the Minister, Deputy Kelly. He spoke well and was clear in what he stated.

I wish to address a specific point on which I want to reconvene the debate. According to the Minister, "over 800 km of the water pipes in Dublin are well in excess of 100 years old." It seems absurd that Irish Water plans to assign to customers responsibility for what is primarily a Victorian piece of infrastructure that has many leaks and could develop further ones. Irish Water has stated that it will repair a leak for free on one occasion, after which the householder is on his or her own. Anyone selling something must warrant it, be it a car, a television or a foodstuff. This policy should also apply to Irish Water and oblige it to give a ten-year guarantee on older pipers. Topics like this one have not been discussed but need to be. Whatever went wrong yesterday meant that many of us did not get a chance to do so. Many points could have been made. It is essential that the House get a chance to debate Irish Water in the near future.

It was correct of the Government to take steps to ensure that the ongoing scandals at some foreign language schools did not continue, but a number of legitimate schools have been hit as well. There seems to be a significant delay. One school with a large number of students has been waiting ten months for recognition. It will have to close this Christmas if it does not receive the permission it needs. There is no suggestion of the school not adhering to the rules and regulations that have been applied.

This something to which we should draw the Minister's attention and perhaps we should also debate it in the House.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We all share Senator Mooney's concern about the letter to which he referred. It was allegedly marked "secret" and I do not believe it is in the Government's possession to release it. I hope the ECB will make a decision today that the four letters in the series will be released. As the Minister for Finance stated this morning, they will be vital for the banking inquiry which is proceeding. From what I read in Cliff Taylor's report this morning, the Government of the day had no choice. It had a gun to its head. Emergency funding would have been cut off unless we immediately applied for the bailout. The Government had no choice. No Government would have acted differently. The country was on the verge of bankruptcy. It was very difficult. The Governor of the Central Bank spoke at the time, some of which we heard this morning on "Morning Ireland". We should temporarily park it and see what the ECB decides today, after which perhaps it can be revisited. It will be of paramount concern to the banking inquiry. We will have to reflect on how to deal with it. It is not a matter for us today.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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On four occasions since we returned from the summer recess, I have asked for a debate on water services. The Leader was kind enough to arrange the debate yesterday and the Minister came to the House to take what was to have been a two and a half hour debate. Many of us had developed a series of questions and put time and effort into preparing for yesterday's important debate. Those of us in opposition and many on the Government side had called for the debate but only four Senators had an opportunity to make a contribution, which is appalling. The blame partly lies with the fact we adjourned the Seanad for so long, but the primary responsibility must lie with the Senator who was disruptive, childish and irresponsible-----

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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-----and prevented us having the debate we should have had.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We will not discuss yesterday's business today. Questions to the Leader.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I do not intend to draw upon the Seanad a response from the Senator in question so I will leave it at that.

We need to reconvene the debate. I accept the Minister came to the House, spent time with us and made an open statement, but we did not have an opportunity to question him. It is not the fault of the Leader and it is not my fault, but we need to have another debate. Everybody accepts there is huge frustration and anger. We can disagree on many aspects of water services but we should at least have a respectful debate in the House and be in a position to question a Minister.

There seems to be agreement, at least on the face of it, on the area of public ownership of water. I cannot understand for the life of me why the political system as an entity cannot agree on how best to proceed on the issue. I commend the Labour Party on supporting the motion tabled yesterday. Next week, Sinn Féin will table a constitutional amendment Bill in the Oireachtas. I do not know whether the Government will support it. Whatever about the Bill, surely it is within the ability of all of the political parties to come up with a framework to protect the future of our water services. This is a question I would have put to the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, yesterday. I respectfully ask the Leader to reconvene the debate in the coming weeks because our questions have not gone away and will need to be answered.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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With regard to yesterday's debate, an intern from the US is working in my office at present. His response to yesterday was to ask whether it was the normal way we carry on business in the House.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are not discussing yesterday's business today.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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It was wrong it occurred. It sent out the wrong message not only to the Irish people, but also to people abroad. I ask that it never occur again during the lifetime of this Seanad.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the letters mentioned, which we anticipate will be released today, irrespective of the banking inquiry of which I am a member they should be debated in the House. We should have a general debate not on advocating withdrawal, but certainly our participation in the euro. One of the many reasons for our economic collapse, in my view, was the fact that we had 8% growth levels with 2% money available. We are already beginning to see it again, and while it is welcome because we are coming from such a low base we have 0% money coming into financial institutions and 6% growth rates forecast for next year. As a result of how the European Central Bank does its business, interest rates will never be where we need them to be because they focus on inflationary concerns rather than economic concerns. We need to debate this and it needs to be considered.

In asking the Leader to rearrange a debate on Irish Water, five minutes per speaker was not acceptable. A longer period of time was required. What the Minister, as a former Member of the House, had to say yesterday was welcome and a breath of fresh air. As somebody who is now a member of the Executive, we will see whether he can walk the talk. With regard to the constant interruptions during my address, I am long enough here to be able to accept them. I support robust debate and participate in it. I make no apologies for it. If the debate was not long enough for colleagues, the matter should be raised with the Leader rather than with somebody who participated in the debate yesterday.

Michael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Now that we are into the long dark winter nights, people find they are no longer safe in their homes and this is a real concern. The level of criminality in the Traveller community is now out of control. It is important to qualify this statement, because I do not want anybody to say I am against Travellers. I certainly am not. However, it is not acceptable that one sector of society seems to choose to ignore the boundaries by which we all live. The Traveller community today does not take responsibility for its own members. I have been informed by senior members of the Garda that very serious crime is occurring within the Traveller community at a level never before seen. I call on the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House to debate serious criminality, during which we can scope further the actions of the Garda to see whether they are able to impact on the level of crime in the Traveller community. It cannot be left unchecked because it is burgeoning and spiralling upwards in a way which is not acceptable.

David Norris (Independent)
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Yesterday, Seanad Éireann distinguished itself in a number of ways. The most important was the passage of the vote on the referendum.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

David Norris (Independent)
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There is also the question of the behaviour of Members of the House, which was regrettable and resulted in a situation where only one person from this side of the House was heard, and that was mainly in the form of interruptions. I was not the only person involved in the mess, but it was a mess and undemocratic. With regard to water, no one wants to pay for water and no one agreed to pay for water. What they are paying for is the treatment and delivery of water. The rain that comes out of the sky is free, and if this is all one wants that is fine, one should just stand outside and open one's mouth. We already pay for this water through central taxation. This is an additional tax. In light of the Trichet letter, obviously people in this country feel very strongly that it is yet another austerity tax, and that is what it is. This is being imposed on a country where a large number of people are put to the pin of their collar and are not able. They do not have the money. One cannot get blood out of a stone.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

David Norris (Independent)
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A very strong answer should go to Trichet. At that stage of course we had room for manoeuvre. We could have said, as Deputy Adams so eloquently stated, "bugger off" and let the whole European system collapse and bring the whole bloody lot down with us. That is what we should have done. It was a game of chicken and we chickened out first. This is regrettable. James Joyce's masterpiece, Ulysses, pays tribute to the establishment and completion of the great Vartry water scheme in 1904.

That is about the last time anybody did anything about it in this country, except for tinkering with maintenance. Here is another situation where we have got our independence and we have done diddly squat since the British left. It makes me wonder what we are celebrating in 2016. I will not be here for it as I am going abroad.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I wish to ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Education and Skills to discuss the future of the technological university. The subject has come up time and again. It is important to have the debate at this point because we are still not making progress on technological universities.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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There are a number of questions we ought to ask about how we want technological universities to be and even whether we want them. If we do, should they be markedly different from existing universities, and if so, how we make them different? We have a new Minister, and we agree there is probably a need for such universities. I live in Sligo and Sligo IT would like to be a lead partner in such a technological university. Questions must be answered as to how that might happen and whether the relationship between technological universities and industry is something we should develop more and allow universities as they are currently constituted to be places of research. We must examine how we can make the relationship work. I would welcome a debate on the matter.

If the Minister were to come to the House I would also like to raise a matter raised by other speakers, namely, the graduate medical programme and the difficulties facing graduates who now find the terms on which they got loans have changed and that they will be burdened with enormous loans they will struggle to pay. We will ultimately be the losers as young doctors will leave the country. That seems to me to be a terrible waste of good talent but also a very great difficulty for those people who would love to stay in Ireland and bring their expertise and education to bear on people in this country. One could ask why on earth would we contribute to something that makes it clear for them that they should not stay.

I appreciate they are separate issues but perhaps they could be addressed if the Minister is invited to the House. I am sure other Members might have other matters that might form part of the debate with the Minister.

John Crown (Independent)
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It is timely that we would ask the relevant Minister, who, in truth, would probably be the Taoiseach, to come to the House at some stage for a broad-ranging debate on political reform. At the time of the Seanad referendum last year substantial and welcome attention was paid not only to the need to reform this House, but a broader debate on political reform. We have been promised by the Leader we will see relevant, but limited reform legislation come before the House some time in the next year.

I was very impressed with the article written by Deputy Eoghan Murphy in which he pointed out the difficulty which the current Whip system, Cabinet power and the de-fanging of backbench Deputies is having on the conduct of public governance in this country. Those are issues which were very important to us last year because one of the key arguments which many of us on both sides of the House advanced last year in defence of the contention that the Seanad required reform and not abolition was the fact that until the Dáil was reformed, getting rid of this Chamber would not fix any of the substantive problems which were largely culpable for many of the difficulties we have found ourselves in recent years.

The Seanad is supposed to be a deliberative Chamber, one where less inflamed passions can sometimes inspire intellectual discourse on important issues. We did that a lot last year on the question of political reform at the time of the referendum and we should do it again. There is much to be said for blocking off a decent amount of time, in the cold light of day, perhaps some time in the new year for a debate on issues such as the Whip, the power of Cabinet, the role of economic councils, how we can encourage backbenchers from both Houses to take the opportunity to speak independently and how they can contribute their sometimes very considerable talent to the ideas which we need to generate. I formally make that request to the Leader.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
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In the aftermath of the release of the Trichet letter - the contents should not come as a surprise to anybody - there will be further recollection of the events of the summer and autumn of 2010 when the country reached its lowest economic point in many decades. It should lead us to reflect on what caused the problems in the period from 2006 to 2010, which was not caused by Europe, it was caused by domestic political decisions taken in this country. I refer in particular to a deliberately fuelled property boom which then became bust.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bradford's party did not object to it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Bradford should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
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If I could be allowed, I will try to make a constructive point rather than a silly political point.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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It is not a silly point.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Bradford should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
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We must try to learn from past mistakes. Anybody who read one of the main banner headlines in one of yesterday's daily newspapers in which we were informed that the Government coffers are being boosted once again by a property boom should think carefully as to whether that is good or bad news.

John Crown (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
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One could ask whether we are going to repeat the same mistakes again. I will not refer to short-term political advantage as the electorate has copped on but the question is whether we will seek to devise a short-term economic model incorrectly manufactured by a property boom. I previously called for the Minister of State with responsibility for housing to come to the House. We urgently need a thorough debate, not on the construction industry but on housing for families and individuals. We must have a debate on how we as a nation want to house people, not how we want to grow an industry or turn property developers into millionaires. We must examine what is our policy on housing people. The Government has come up with a strategy and the Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, is the lead Minister. We must have a debate on the property market and how we propose to deal with the housing crisis. I would be frightened if we were to cheer-lead ourselves into another boom and bust property cycle which might give us two or three years of false security but lead us back to the very same crisis that we experienced during the so-called Celtic tiger. Such a debate is urgently required and I ask the Leader to try to facilitate it at his convenience.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We need an economic debate in the House with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton. Last Sunday's The Sunday Business Postcarried a major feature on a financier speaking in this country at the weekend on the reason investors will not invest in this country. He gave two major reasons, one is because of our high level of debt-to-GDP ratio and the second one is because we are not able to keep talented youth in this country. He said that while we lose our youth we lose hope and DNA material we need for the future.
Let us contrast that with the fact that our growth is meant to be the highest in the eurozone this year. It reminds me of when a number of years ago we were held up as being top of the class in Europe and then we found that our foundation was bottomless. Something is not hanging together. We are told things are improving - I want them to improve - yet it is very clear from the mood of the people, not least on water because as we know that is about much more than water, that growth is not being felt on the ground by people and they are hurting too much. I would like the Minister to inform us who is investing in Ireland, how strong is our growth, how strong are the fundamentals underpinning the growth, what the threats are to it and what hope we an give the nation.

This must be balanced against the type of serious report in last Sunday's edition of The Sunday Business Postwhich stated the reasons investors are not confident to invest in this country. I ask for a serious debate on that issue.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senators Mooney, Leyden, Coghlan, Bradford and others raised the important issue of the Jean-Claude Trichet letter which will certainly form part of the banking inquiry. In my view those letters should be investigated by the banking inquiry which I am sure will deal comprehensively with them.

In the House yesterday the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, asked about the vote. Senator Bacik explained her position on the vote taken yesterday. The Minister acknowledged the vote. He said that he would bring the matter to Government and I am sure he will do so. I understand from Senator Cullinane that a Bill will be introduced next week in the other House proposing a referendum on that matter. I wish to state clearly and put it on the record of the House in case of any doubt from any source that it is the Fine Gael position that we are totally opposed to the privatisation of our water supply. It is a case of deciding how to deal with it, whether by means of a referendum or by the strengthening of legislation. Yesterday I asked for time to allow the Government proposals to be put in place before having a vote but that was not what happened yesterday.

Senator Bacik spoke about yesterday's debate on penal reform and she called for a further debate. We can consider that debate in six or eight months' time.

Senator Barrett made a number of points about Irish Water. He questioned the postcode system which was debated in committee. He asked that the Minister, Deputy Alex White, come to the House to discuss the matter. I will inquire from the Minister whether he will come to the House to deal with that matter.

Senator Conway called for a debate on the Ruhama report. The matter was discussed in the House yesterday on the Order of Business. A number of Senators raised that matter. I understand the Cabinet may be discussing this matter and there may be a decision in a number of weeks.

Senator Leyden complimented the organisers of the web summit. On Tuesday we complimented the organisers and welcomed all the attendees. I may have been confused but Senator Leyden mentioned that he was with the former Minister, Brian Lenihan, when he got the call from Jean-Claude Trichet-----

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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No, the call from Patrick Honohan.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is good to hear. I am sure Senator Leyden will be called to give evidence to the inquiry in that regard.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am ready, willing and able.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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He is ready to serve.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Whelan spoke about the debate on Irish Water and he highlighted the need to invest in infrastructure. A number of Members have asked for a further debate on Irish Water. When the Government has finalised its plans I will ask the Minister, Deputy Kelly, to come to the House. It was regrettable that we did not have a comprehensive debate. There was no objection to the Order of Business proposal that every speaker would be allowed five minutes speaking time which would have allowed 20 Senators to contribute. Unfortunately, Members were prevented from having their five minutes because of the antics of some people in the House yesterday.

In reply to Senator Cullinane I will certainly try to have a further debate with the Minister, Deputy Kelly, once the Government's proposals are announced.

Senator MacSharry asked for a debate on our participation in the euro. I will consider his request. Senator D'Arcy is probably unfair in targeting any one section of the community where crime is concerned. Crime is committed by many sections of the community and it will need to be tackled. Elderly people have been in fear of their lives but this problem needs to be addressed by the Government because the protection of people in their homes is paramount.

Senator Norris said that we were already paying for water. I agree we are paying a certain amount for our water but up to now this country has been spending €1.2 billion to barely maintain the broken pipes which cause leakages of 40% to 50% of water. Dozens of treatment plants are inferior and many kilometres of pipe work are broken. We have to fix the water system. As mentioned previously, this time last year the web summit had no water. At least €10 billion needs to be invested in the period up to 2027 in order to fix the system. Solving this problem will safeguard the investment and help to create jobs. It is disgraceful that today more than 20,000 people are on boil-water notices. The Government intends to address this issue.

Senator O'Keeffe spoke about the future of technological universities. The Minister spoke about the situation in the south east when he was responding to an Adjournment matter last evening. I will ask the Minister to come to the House for a debate on technological universities and their connection with industry. I am sure their mission is different to that of the existing universities. For example, Taiwan has up to 100 universities and there is currently a discussion about having technological universities rather than their existing universities which are among the best in the world. I will ask the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, to come to the House.

The graduate medical programme has been raised on the Order of Business on a number of occasions. It may have been raised during last Tuesday's debate - I am not sure - when the Minister was in the House for a debate on health.

Senator Crown asked for a debate on political reform. I will try to facilitate such a debate in the next term. Senator Bradford spoke about the dangers of the property boom and the difficulties that may recur. The Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, has responsibility for housing and he will be announcing a number of measures. I suggest we can have that debate when those proposals are in play.

Senator Healy Eames called for a debate on foreign direct investment with the Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton. This investment has been very significant in recent years and it has contributed to the growth of the economy. I agree the benefits have not filtered down to many parts of the country but the Government will certainly continue to press for more jobs. I have invited the Minister to the House to discuss the action plan for jobs and I am sure the debate on foreign direct investment could be included.