Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on Irish Water, to be taken at 11.45, with the contribution of all Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply to the debate no later than 1.50 p.m.; No. 2, Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2014 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 2.30 p.m.; No. 3, Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill 2014 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 2; and No. 56, motion No. 10, Private Members' business, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 3, with the time allocated to this debate not to exceed two hours.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that motion 11 be taken before No. 1. That motion states: "That Seanad Éireann requests the Government to initiate legislation to provide for a constitutional referendum to enshrine the ownership of Irish Water to the Irish people in perpetuity." One of the major issues with regard to the management of water charging has been the manner in which Irish Water is set up as a subsidiary of Bord Gáis Éireann. Effectively the sole shareholder in that is the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the equivalent Minister in any future government. He or she will be that shareholder and there is nothing to prevent the Government or any future Government from-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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For clarification, it is No. 56, motion 11.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is No. 56, motion 11.

There is nothing to prevent any Minister with responsibility for the environment from selling Irish Water. Water is not a utility that can be just sold; it is owned by the Irish people. That should be enshrined in the Constitution. The Taoiseach has mentioned his intention to introduce legislation on this, which he believes will strengthen -----

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We already have some.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien without interruption.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The problem with primary legislation is that it can be changed by any future Government. If legislation was introduced stating that a majority of two thirds of the Dáil and Seanad was required to vote for the privatisation of Irish Water, that can be changed by legislation should some Government in the future decide to sell Irish Water. This is not a political point to be made, it is a fact, but the concerns of thousands upon thousands of people do not relate solely to the charges but to the structure in which Irish Water has been set up and the fact that it is set up in such a way that in the future it could be privatised. It is not ours to sell.

Water is a resource of the Irish people. Something as fundamental as a right to water should be enshrined in Bunreacht na hÉireann. Next March, there will be a series of referenda on points that have come through the Constitutional Convention. I welcome that. Three referenda are planned. There is nothing whatsoever to stop this Government, to clear any doubt over this issue, from having a fourth referendum on that day. That fourth referendum would be to put the question to the Irish people that Irish Water and the water resource in this country stays in the ownership of the Irish people in perpetuity. That is what I propose today by way of an amendment to the Order of Business and that while we have the Minister, Deputy Kelly, here that, as part of the debate, one hour would be set aside for this specific issue. I urgently call and urge those on all sides of the House to support this. The Seanad will have stood up and done something real in this regard and will put it to the Dáil to initiate legislation. The Seanad cannot initiate legislation, unfortunately, to initiate a referendum. What we can do is speak very strongly as one, as the upper Chamber of the Oireachtas, and say that this is what we want, that we want to ensure that water is owned in perpetuity by the Irish people and can never be sold off to private interests.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I wish to start by commending Ruhama, an organisation that deals with women who are involved in prostitution, and congratulate it for its excellent work. It dealt last year with 305 women from 36 countries who have been affected by prostitution. Of those 305 women, 83 were trafficked into Ireland. It is the lowest form of reprehensibility to see women in this country treated in this way. Ruhama has called for us to change the law urgently, to criminalise the purchase of sex -----

David Norris (Independent)
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Rubbish.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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----- and that is something this House has many times debated.

David Norris (Independent)
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But not very honestly.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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Could we have an update on where we stand in relation to that particular proposal and, if necessary, a further debate in relation to the Turn Off the Red Light campaign?

Today Bank of Ireland announced that it had repossessed just over 300 homes from their owners in the first half of this year and another 300, there or thereabouts, buy-to-let properties. It is a matter of urgency that while we are all applauding the performance of the Irish economy -----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We are not.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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----- and the 4.7% growth announced yesterday, there are many people who are not feeling the benefit of this uplift whatsoever. Many of those people who are at the coal face of repossession are perhaps the most vulnerable. There are those who have experienced homelessness as a result of having their homes repossessed. I ask that we have an urgent debate in this House on the issue of repossessions and in particular to discuss the report of the joint Oireachtas committee on finance -----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I remind the Senator that she voted for the Land Law Reform and Conveyancing Act 2009.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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----- on the mortgage market and some of the measures it has proposed -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Hayden, without interruption.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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----- which made it easier to repossess homes -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Hayden without interruption, please.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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----- and for a watered down code of conduct on mortgage arrears -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien, please. Senator Hayden, without interruption.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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----- and she opposed the family home Bill as well -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, please.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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She can call for debate but she had opportunities to do something about it and her Government has made these reforms.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien, please allow Senator Hayden speak without interruption.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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No disrespect to the Senator, but there is a joint Oireachtas committee report on mortgage lending which was signed up to by all of the political parties involved in that committee, including that of the Senator. There are many excellent recommendations in that report and it deserves to be debated in this House. There are many issues that we would all agree, across the House, across party, and I do not think this should be consistently regarded by Senator O'Brien as a party-political issue.
Senator Darragh O'Brien:No, it is a fact that the Senator -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Hayden without interruption, please. Senator O'Brien, you have spoken already.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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The code on mortgage arrears is set by the Central Bank, which is -----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, but you -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien, please.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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Does the Senator have an issue with the truth?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, have you a question for the Leader?

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I have asked -----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has done nothing about it in the Seanad.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I have asked the Leader for a debate on the joint Oireachtas committee's report on mortgage arrears and the recommendations that committee has made in relation to some serious changes that could be made both to the code of conduct on mortgage arrears and to setting up an independent service to assist all mortgagees - not just the ones from AIB and EBS but all mortgage holders - to get independent advice and not to be at the mercy of individual banks. I am asking the Leader that we have that debate as a matter of urgency.

I welcome Deputy O'Sullivan's intervention to help unblock the process in relation to the merger between the Waterford and Cork institutes of technology to pave the way for a technological university in the south east. We are all well aware of the serious needs -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, you are way over time.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I would not be over time, if you do not mind, a Chathaoirligh, if I was not being constantly interrupted by my friend over there.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, you are way over time now.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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It is a matter of critical importance for the future of third level education in this country and there is plenty of evidence that the south east is suffering economically. The presence of a third level institution would help.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Norris.

David Norris (Independent)
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First of all, I would like to second the amendment to the Order of Business moved by my colleague and friend, Senator O'Brien. I think it is quite extraordinary that Seanad Éireann cannot propose legislation for a referendum. This is one of the things that needs to be looked at. If there was ever a chamber, a reflective chamber, that was appropriate to the proposal for referenda, it is this Chamber rather than the parties-driven Dáil.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

David Norris (Independent)
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I hope that in the forthcoming months, in the run-up to the next general election, there will be a commitment by all parties to a real and exhaustive examination of possibilities for reforming the Senate including allowing intervention with regard to financial matters and referenda.

I would like also to take up this business of Ruhama and Turn Off the Red Light. It is time this kind of nonsense was really honestly addressed. The situation in the North of Ireland is that legislation has recently been passed up there. An examination was carried out by Queen's University Belfast on this issue. It showed that despite the puppeteering going on by this middle class collection of ex-nuns and radical feminists, 98% of the women for whom voices are being articulated by this self-appointed group are opposed completely to it. They constitute 90% of the women working in this area. The Nordic experience is that prostitution is creeping back onto the street. The police are against it by and large. Everybody realises that it is going to be inoperable and ineffective and will lead to serious risks to the lives and welfare of the women and men involved in the sex business. Yes, prostitution is messy. It is regrettable, but it is a fact of life -----

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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On a point of information.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Hayden, there is no such thing.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I have to totally object to what Senator Norris is saying.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, please resume your seat.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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He is suggesting that women choose prostitution like they would choose to be an accountant.

David Norris (Independent)
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Could the Senator interrupt a little more clearly? I could not hear what she said.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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That is disrespectful.

David Norris (Independent)
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I could not hear what you said.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, through the Chair.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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You are suggesting that women choose prostitution like they choose to be doctors or accountants -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, resume your seat please.

David Norris (Independent)
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Read yesterday's edition of The Irish Times.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Norris, please.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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It is an outrageous -----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Norris, please.

David Norris (Independent)
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Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I am suggesting that a group of middle-class people are pushing an agenda without actually realising what the situation on the ground is. Prostitution has been here forever. It may very well be regrettable but the Senator needs to face the facts and this needs to be operated in a way that looks after the welfare, the health and the safety and security -----

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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Is Senator Norris suggesting-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Hayden, please.

David Norris (Independent)
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-----of the women and the men involved in this and not in this academic approach-----

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I am sorry but I cannot let that go.

David Norris (Independent)
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You have to. Let us have a debate and we can all have our views on it.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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No one wants to see Irish Water sold and I take on board many of the points made by Senator O'Brien. There is existing legislation and many issues to be examined. I am not stating the Senator is right or wrong. I do not think any of us can at this point be definitive, but I do not think we should rush into it. Senator Norris made a point on this being a reflective Chamber. On this issue we need to reflect a little.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We have a lot of reflection to do.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am not procrastinating, but I am opposed to rushing into anything.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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We are looking for clarity.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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What Senator Cullinane thinks might be clarity today might not be tomorrow, with respect.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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You might want to sell it off tomorrow.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane should look at what his leader said at the beginning and what he is saying now. We are all in solidarity with people who genuinely cannot afford to pay. There will be a scheme, whether a waiver or whatever, for these people. I accept what Senator O'Brien stated, namely, that everybody wants to do the right thing. I want to see this being a reflective Chamber. I want to see us doing the right thing.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Have a referendum.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I just do not think we can say definitively now what the right approach is.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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That is the right approach.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We need to examine things.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Provide clarity, please.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Pause a while on this. We will examine it. We will have a debate later today-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Make it meaningful by passing the motion.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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-----and perhaps some good suggestions will come forward. I appeal to Senators to reflect and give it a little time rather than rushing to a vote willy-nilly.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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As far as a referendum is concerned, and it is a matter to be considered later, those drafting it had better be aware that Veolia, which has major investments in water in this country, has already privatised part of the water system. In 2010 it was awarded a 20-year contract to design, build and operate Greystones wastewater treatment facility. Its largest municipal contract in Ireland is the Clareville drinking water treatment plant. It has water collection operations in Roscommon. It operates from Kilkenny and has offices in Sligo, Galway and Roscommon. Somebody tell me how we can have a referendum now on contracts already granted for more than 20 years. Would Veolia be excluded from a referendum or would its contracts be torn up in this regard?

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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They are also investments.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Be very well aware that contracts have been entered into with a private multinational company, Veolia, which now operates throughout the length and breadth of Ireland in treatment plants for water and sewerage. Let us get real about this. Privatisation has already taken place. I have no problem with referendums, but if one is drafted be very conscious of the fact there will be a constitutional-----

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Tell Senator O'Brien-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden without interruption please.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am informing the House of the realities of life with regard to a constitutional referendum. I support my colleague, Senator O'Brien, on a referendum, but there are private schemes in Glinsk and Oran in my area and in a sense they are in community ownership. Would these water schemes have to be taken back into public ownership or would they be excluded from operating these schemes? Bear in mind it is not a simplistic question. I just want to bring this to the attention of the House, based on my experience in both Houses and in dealing with Veolia, which is a very demanding operator-----

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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That is why we must examine it further.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Of course we will examine it, but I am alerting my colleagues to the fact that whatever constitutional amendment is drafted it will have to exclude those companies operating at present which have privatised supplies in various parts of the countryside, including Roscommon. I am aware of this information and I would not by carrying out my responsibilities if I did not bring them to the attention of the House. I have very detailed analysis on the amount of water being treated by Veolia in Ireland at present and I will bring it to the attention of the media today.

Lorraine Higgins (Labour)
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I wish to raise an issue relating to how medical cards are awarded to people in this country. Like many of my Oireachtas colleagues, time after time people come to my clinic with illnesses so grave that it beggars belief they do not satisfy the requirements for a discretionary card if they fail under other criteria. Numerous people have contacted me about the fact their cards have been taken from them. Recently I discovered that under Regulation (EEC) No. 1408/71 pensioners have an automatic entitlement to a non-means tested medical card if they are in receipt of a social security pension from another EU state or Switzerland and one is not subject to PRSI for earnings if one is not employed or self-employed in Ireland. If one has never contributed to the Irish social welfare system in any way one is automatically entitled to a non-means tested medical card, while those who have contributed are not. There is something fundamentally wrong with this and we must address it. It is why I want the Minister for Health to come to the Seanad to debate the issue and clarify what he will do to level the playing field in this regard.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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Yesterday a number of Senators raised the problem of diesel laundering in Border counties. The system we have does not work and we must do something about it. That part of the country is almost like mafia territory. The Revenue Commissioners estimate 150 filling stations do not obey the law and use fuel with a dye in it. We were told the new dye would work and that it would be impossible to remove, but clearly it is not working.

We need to find a different system to overcome this problem. I do not know what the answer is, but it has been suggested the Government should register and provide fuel free of dye to farmers and have them seek a rebate. This cannot be done on this side of the Border only; we must also get the North and Britain to do it. There is an answer, which is to do away with the dye in the fuel because it is making it far too easy to engage in diesel laundering. Once the dye is in the fuel it encourages the mafia-type behaviour taking place. We must do something about it. We have seen the amount of criminality taking place and the answer is in our own hands. We must not leave it in the hands of those gangsters, who use it at an estimated cost of €10 million per year to the Exchequer. We can do something about it.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the visit over recent days of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, to China. Yesterday he hosted a dairy conference. China imported €270 million worth of dairy products from Ireland in 2013. With our dairy targets set to increase by 50% in the coming years, it is crucial that we have more and more exports to countries such as China. There is also a market for beef, as China imports 5.6 million tonnes of beef annually. We have had our own problems in the beef sector in recent months. I hope with these new markets the price for beef here will increase. Joining the Minister on his trip to China are 37 companies, which in turn will create more and more jobs here, which I welcome.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the fact we will have statements on water services today and that the Leader listened to us and arranged the debate, which is important. I hope all Senators will be able to contribute to the debate, and I will not table an amendment to the Order of Business as the Leader signalled yesterday he wants this to happen. People will raise many issues and disagree on various aspects of water services and charges.

That is where we are politically, but the one point about which, given people's comments, there seems to be agreement is that water should remain under public ownership and not be sold. If we are genuine in this, I do not know why we cannot support the proposal tabled by Fianna Fáil Members today. A similar Private Members' Bill has been introduced in the Dáil by Sinn Féin and will be debated in three weeks' time. If we are serious about ensuring that our water services cannot be sold, what is the problem with saying so in the Constitution? In that way, only the people of the State could give permission for water services to be sold.

People want certainty, but there has been far too much confusion and too many mistakes have been made. Let us not add to the confusion further. I am sure that Government Senators will not support the amendment to the Order of Business, but they will have time to reflect in the coming weeks. If they want to ensure that water services remain in public ownership, they need to make proposals that satisfy people about that. We will disagree on charges and so forth, but I hope that we can reach an accommodation on the fundamental issue of water's ownership. I will support the proposed amendment to the Order of Business as well as the Bill that has been tabled by Fianna Fáil.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I wish to raise an issue that faces everyone in the Chamber regardless of whether we like it, namely, death. One of the most difficult actions taken during the reduction in budgets was the removal of the bereavement grant of €850, which took effect on 1 January 2014. The consequence for families trying to bury loved ones has proven difficult. It has also proven difficult for undertakers, particularly those in rural areas who are embedded in their communities. Indeed, many are also local public representatives. The quality of coffin used by undertakers has diminished radically. Most are imported. People are losing jobs across the country because families cannot afford to buy good quality Irish coffins. The cost to the Exchequer of replacing the bereavement grant in the next budget would be minimal in the overall context. At this early point in our preparations for the 2016 budget, will the Leader bring this matter to the attention of the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection? It has come to my attention that the matter has upset people to no end. Families in probate situations do not have money. Undertakers are doing their best. Something that we in Ireland always try to do is bury our dead properly, but some families are being denied this opportunity.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I support my leader's call for a referendum on protecting the right to water. The difficulty for the country and successive Governments is that the public does not trust Governments or what they do. According to Senator Paul Coghlan, it is already the law that we cannot sell Irish Water, but it is not sufficient merely to have a legislative provision.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It should be strengthened.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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A minimum requirement of two thirds of the Dáil and two thirds of the Seanad to override that provision should be enshrined in the Constitution. This should be our aim.

I thank the Leader for his response yesterday - unfortunately, I was attending another meeting - to my call for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, to attend the House to debate the farming and fishing industries. Even though we had a benign year in weather terms, I am concerned by the plight of inshore fishermen. I am referring to smaller fishermen, most of whom use open boats and fish during the summer for lobster and pollock and fish for shrimp and dredge for scallop during the winter. It is tough work. Many are family people trying to eke out a living.

It has come to my notice that the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority has applied strict criteria on the contamination of various fish stocks. In some respects, this is to be welcomed. However, the criteria applied to scallop are so severe that fishermen may not be able to fish them at all. Many who sent scallop to dealers last year were never paid because they failed a test. The test is different in France and Spain. The scientists should recognise that attached to the main body of the scallop that we eat is a little gut. This is the part that is contaminated, not the meat of the scallop itself. I will not move an amendment to the Order of Business on this matter, but will the Leader ask the Minister to consider how to reach out to these underprivileged and deprived inshore fishermen with small boats who are trying to raise families and make an honest living? I know from my own experience with fishermen that it is tough work. Raising the bar year on year will wipe out their livelihoods. We should reflect on this matter. Perhaps it could be encompassed in the debate the Minister is to take in the House.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I would have no difficulty with holding a referendum on Irish Water. As to Senator Leyden's comments, a 20-year contract was given because there was an investment in infrastructure. To ensure a refund on that investment, it was necessary to have such a contract. There is no reason that this type of system could not continue even if a referendum was held to ensure that Irish Water's infrastructure was not sold. It is not a major problem. This is a democratic state, and if that is what people want, I see no reason not to have it.

I wish to discuss an issue that I have raised numerous times. I have tabled two Adjournment motions but, three years on, the mess is getting worse. I am referring to our court system. We have set up the Court of Appeal, which means that the amount of work passing through it and the Supreme Court will increase dramatically. The taxation of costs, that is, deciding what costs should be paid to the legal practitioners involved in successful cases, has not been addressed. We have a problem, in that there are only two Taxing Masters. This week, only one of those is sitting and adjudicating on costs for the entire court system. It is wrong that this matter has not been resolved. I made the simple proposal two years ago that a third Taxing Master should be appointed, but it was not accepted. I am repeating my call now. The appointment will have to be made. Currently, three judicial review proceedings concerning disputes with one of the Taxing Masters are going through the High Court.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has gone way over time.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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This matter needs to be resolved. People are entitled to be paid for the work they do, particularly in the court system. Decisions on payment are being delayed for as much as four years.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciated the Leader's response yesterday to my remarks about the ongoing saga of the long wave 252 transmitter.

Earlier this morning, at the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications, I sought and received the unanimous backing of the committee for the newly appointed RTE board, which was announced by the Minister for Communications. Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, overnight, to reverse the decision to shut down the long wave 252 transmitter. The momentum has been building on this issue over the past number of weeks to the point where it is now a major issue for the Irish in Britain and also for those who are concerned about the transmitter in Meath, which was upgraded in 2007 and can be fully digitised. There are no technical reasons RTE should shut down this transmitter. It has not even answered the question as to what it will do with it if it shuts it down.

I congratulate the newly appointed chairperson designate of the RTE board, Moya Doherty of Riverdance fame. For the record, Moya Doherty and I go back a long way. She worked as my production assistant in the early 1980s in 2fm and she has done well since. She has done much better than I have.

John Gilroy (Labour)
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The Senator gave her good training.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Gilroy for that kind thought. She certainly has more money than I have but she deserves every penny of it. She is a very talented and committed broadcaster. Her appointment will enhance considerably the status of RTE. I call on Moya and the newly appointed members, when they take their seats on the newly appointed RTE board, to reverse the decision by RTE management to shut this transmitter down, and they can do so.

I applaud the initiative of several hundred British MPs who passed a motion in the House of Commons yesterday to clarify what is the illegal practice of gender abortions in the United Kingdom - in other words, women seeking abortions because they do not like the gender of the baby - which is an appalling vista. This particular illegality is promoted by British Pregnancy Advisory Service, which advises on 60,000 abortions each year. Its leaflet states it is legal to do this. The British Medical Association is also very fuzzy in regard to whether it is legal but the British MPs who voted overwhelmingly yesterday to clarify the law say it is an illegal act to have a gender-based abortion. It opens up the appalling vista that there could be in this country if there was abortion on demand. I applaud the British MPs on their initiative.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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I do not have a question for the Leader but want to address my matter to the Cathaoirleach. Will the Cathaoirleach ask Senator Mary Ann O'Brien who made a statement in the House yesterday under privilege to withdraw it in the House today? I will read what Senator Mary Ann O'Brien said in regard to a 238 year old bridge in the middle of the medieval city of Kilkenny.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is yesterday's business. We are not dealing with yesterday's business today.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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This must be corrected because Senator Mary Ann O'Brien said: "I am loth to say it but the fact is that corruption and brown envelopes are destroying one of the most beautiful cities in Europe." I was an elected representative on Kilkenny County Council and passed two county development plans, which approved this-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The record of the House will show-----

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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I want Senator Mary Ann O'Brien to come to the House to correct the record because she-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There was no allegation. It was a general-----

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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She made an allegation. She said it is a fact that corruption and brown envelopes are destroying-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Against whom did she say it?

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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She said it against every council official in, and elected representative from, Kilkenny over the past 30 years.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I do not think she did.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I asked that it be referred to the Garda.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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This has been-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are not discussing this issue. The Leader of the House said yesterday that it had been referred to the Garda.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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This protest has cost Kilkenny County Council €1.2 million to date.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are not discussing this issue.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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There will have to be cutbacks in Kilkenny due to this protest. I ask that Senator Mary Ann O'Brien come to the House. If she has her facts right-----

David Norris (Independent)
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A medieval city is being destroyed.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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-----she should state outside the House who was involved in getting brown envelopes and what corruption was involved so that she will not be able to use privilege. It is important the record of this House is corrected.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader of the House dealt with that issue yesterday.

James Heffernan (Labour)
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While the proposal from Fianna Fáil this morning may be a bit of stunt, it is no harm that people are finally starting to listen. A number of people and high profile politicians seem to be jumping on the water charges band wagon. To hear the leader of Sinn Féin say that he will pay the charge one minute and say he will not pay it the next in solidarity with people is a bit of a joke. However, it is good that people have responded to these protests by ordinary people who are sick to the teeth of being made to pay for the mistakes of bankers and bad governance. Having said that, our water services are being put on a privatisation footing and I will support calls for a referendum to be put to the people. It is well within our rights and the people should decide who runs the water supply.

There is a bit of push to try to get people registered to vote in the upcoming referendums. I was given a letter from Limerick County Council and I ask the Leader if this approach is being taken by every county council when reviewing their registers of electors. The letter stated that it appears the person is no longer resident at the above address - take note that this letter arrives at an address at which the person is no longer living. It states that if the council does not hear from the person to the contrary within the next ten days, it will assume that is the case and will make arrangements to remove the person's name from the register of electors. This is madness. A letter can arrive to a place where a person is no longer living and the person is told he or she must respond in ten days or else he or she will be removed from the register. It is a complete mess. Is anyone taking responsibility for this?

I have seen electoral registers where some people have a vote in a number of different areas. I have come across instances where people who have been dead 20 years have been sent polling cards and yet people who move house are taken off the register without them knowing it. There is utter confusion.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator looking for a debate on the issue?

James Heffernan (Labour)
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It is probably worthy of a debate at some stage. The register is not fit for purpose and it needs to be sorted out.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I support what Senator Heffernan said. The register is not fit for purpose. There has been much controversy in recent times about PPS numbers.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Linking the register of electors and people registering to vote with PPS numbers could possibly be a way to streamline it because there is no doubt with people moving house, flat or apartment quite often, many find themselves on the register in several locations.

I have no difficulty enshrining ownership of Irish Water in the Constitution but we need to tease it out and maybe get some legal advice on it. The issue raised by Senator Leyden probably casts some doubt on whether it is legally possible to do that. We need to copperfasten in as strong a way as possible the ownership of Irish Water to ensure it remains in the ownership of the people.

I renew a call I made recently for the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, to come to the House to give an update on the Action Plan for Jobs 2014. We should be really proud of the web summit as its success has given our country a major international boost. We would like to hear from the Minister how successful recent trade missions abroad have been. It is time he came to the House for a meaningful discussion on the Action Plan for Jobs.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I do not believe the Government will end up charging for this period of time at all. I do not believe I will pay because one of the principles of taxation, or one of Adam Smith's canons of taxation, is certainty of taxation. Under the Constitution, the Government must tell people what taxes they owe but it has not told us. Nobody knows and it is a complete shambles.

The Government must do what Fianna Fáil has asked and suspend the water charges. I do not believe that anyone is under an obligation to pay water charges for October or November while this mess and shambles goes on.

Let us not forget that this is a shambolic Government. Once the troika left town and once the excuses that the Government had were over, it simply has not been able to run the country.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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What is the growth rate at present? It is 4.7%.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator want to know about the growth rate?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne, please, without interruption.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Government side want to know about adding in prostitution and adding in illegal activities at the start of the year as the reason for economic growth? We can have a debate on that issue.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne, please, through the Chair.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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It is €1 billion more in tax. Please, continue.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne, please, without interruption.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Thanks to calculating the income from prostitution, we have economic growth.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne, please, through the Chair.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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This Government has made a shambles of it. There is no public support for Irish Water at the moment and I urge all Members not to wait for legal advice.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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It is our duty to look at these motions and then vote on them in accordance with what we want. Let us forget about legal advice. There is nothing to stop us maintaining the ownership of Irish Water in the hands of the public. It is essential that everyone here does this. If Members vote against this motion today-----

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden seemed to think there was.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I am speaking, Senator.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne, please, without interruption.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Some Senators think if we say "pretty please", things can be sorted.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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If Members vote against this motion they are essentially supporting the privatisation of Irish Water.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Next it will be the ESB network.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We will not take any guff from the Taoiseach and his promises to tighten up the legislation. That is nonsense, as I said yesterday. We must have a referendum.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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If Members support the maintaining of Irish Water and the maintaining of a healthy and safe water supply to the people, they must support this motion.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I wish to comment briefly on the Irish Water issue. Can Senator Cullinane explain whether he was talking about all the water of Ireland or just water in the Twenty-six Counties?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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All our rivers run free, even in the harbours.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I fully agree with Senator Feargal Quinn's comment about laundered diesel and both of us have raised the issue before. It is a bit like Italo Calvino's story about the Argentine ants. Everyone has a solution for how to get rid of them but none of them works. As the Senator said, we must remove the dye from diesel and give VAT rebates. Unfortunately, the British Treasury is blocking such an initiative.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I spoke to Mr. Danny Kennedy, who is the Minister for Regional Development in the North, and I know that diesel laundering is not a Northern issue but a Treasury one. We also need to raise the issue at the British-Irish Council. I have raised the matter with British parliamentarians, including very recently with Sir Roger Gale, and he said he will bring the matter to the attention of the British Treasury and George Osborne. We need to act fast.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Bring him into the House.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Laundered diesel has led to Revenue losing approximately €1 billion over the past five years. Coincidently, that is the investment we need to make in Irish Water over the next two years and it would also more than pay for the A5 motorway. This is a very serious issue and I ask the relevant Minister to come into the House to give us an update on where we are at the moment.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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In anticipation of a later debate on water, I shall not mention it. Senator Comiskey mentioned that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine is in China at present. I wish him well and hope he can make progress in broadening markets for Ireland, which clearly needs to be done. Not enough is being done in that regard in the Department, unlike the previous Secretary General who spent much time going around the world trying to broaden the markets available to Ireland.

I wish to refer specifically to the two weeks of talks, which in my view are superficial, that are taking place between the industry, representatives of the Minister and the farm organisations. Our focus has been incorrect in terms of dealing with the beef crisis. We need engagement directly from Government level with the European Commission, specifically with DG Enterprise and Industry and DG Competition, to change the rules that allow companies such as large multiples like Tesco and to a lesser extent large processors in Britain and Ireland to erect barriers to trade and impose anti-fair trade practices which prevent farmers in the South of Ireland from gaining a fair price for their produce. This right is enshrined in Article 39(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, and we as a Government, or this Parliament and its Government, have done nothing about enforcing it.

On one hand, it is good to see the Minister broadening our horizons in terms of seeking to open new markets. Engagement between all sectors of the industry is welcome. On the other hand, the talks are superficial window dressing. Both the Government and farming organisations, in terms of their leadership in negotiations with the multiples and processors, have done nothing in real terms to address the incomes of small farmers. I call on the Minister to make himself available to the House as soon as he returns to update us on these talks. I want him to tell us what tangible actions he will undertake to ensure fair trade exists once again on the islands of Britain and Ireland.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
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Will the Leader request the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to come to the House to discuss his ongoing efforts to assist the undocumented Irish in the United States? It is appropriate that the Government would renew its efforts because the political map of the United States changed very significantly last night due to a significant swing to the Republican Party, which means the Obama Presidency has come to an absolute end. President Obama has been completely neutralised and, therefore, political initiatives will come from the other side of the House.

It is also important that we all reflect on the fact that tens of millions of Irish Americans voted for the Republican Party last night and yesterday, as they have done so for many years. We have a dewy-eyed vision in Irish politics sometimes that Irish America means the Democratic Party. Irish Americans think differently from the way we expect them to, however, and they vote in large numbers for the Republican Party. We must recognise that fact and build strong links with that party which is now the dominant party in the United States.

The immigration issue has been a significant problem for the past 25 years. The Kennedy Bill has been mentioned but a former US presidential candidate, Senator John McCain, was the man who pushed most strongly for the entitlement of Irish people to remain in the United States. Now we must renew our efforts, especially with the new US House of Representatives and Senate. I ask for the Minister to come to the Seanad to give an account of what the Government is doing. We must reflect seriously on the fact that the politics of the United States and of Irish America is significantly different from what some in this country wish it to be. We should acknowledge the new thinking among the Irish community in the United States.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I wish to follow up on what Senator Bradford has said. Such a debate is worthy of consideration. In a way the vote is collapsing for the Democratic Party because President Obama has not been the Messiah people expected him to be based on all his original promises. Everyone needs to learn from that situation.

Will the Leader tell me when the Minister for Education and Skills will come to the House to debate statements on education? I do not believe she has debated the issue in the House. She may have been here to debate a Bill but not this issue.

I do not know whether people have noticed the number of international schools that have closed suddenly leaving students high and dry. Do we care about international foreign students? One would have to wonder whether we do because truly they have made complaints regularly to the Garda about their concerns. I have been told by a very reliable source that the Garda needs to start treating complaints from these students very seriously because they can see a pattern and doubt emerging in a school. These are our students. The message needs to go out internationally that students we take into this country have a right to learner protection within this State. We need to know whether such colleges are regulated and bonded in a secure enough manner to reassure families overseas when they hand their money over to the colleges. Many of these are very vulnerable students. I believe these people have been let down and I ask the Leader to respond to my query.

I support Senator MacSharry's call for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to come to the House for a debate. We need to look at the way farmers are being manipulated by factory monopolies in this country in terms of the price of beef.

I have met many of those farmers. Things have not got better despite the moves that seemed to have been made to make them better. I do not believe anything has really happened to protect farmers or give them a boost. In the UK, the same animal will get an additional €1 per kilo. This amounts to a difference of approximately €300 for the same animal, depending on whether it is processed in the UK. That facility is not available to the Irish farmer. There is something fundamentally wrong in this regard.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I support the call made by my colleague, Senator Darragh O'Brien, for legislation to be drafted to provide for a referendum to enshrine the entity known as Irish Water into the ownership of the Irish people. We are dealing with the supply of water, which can be defined as a public good or as a necessity. I am not sure whether it would be known as a public good in economic terms. According to the World Health Organization, for the existence of human life an individual needs access to between 50 and 100 litres of water each day. In 2002, the United Nations prepared a document which outlined that water is a basic necessity for human life. If we accept that, surely we have to make sure the entity charged with drawing up a pricing policy and controlling this basic necessity for human life cannot be allowed to be sold. We cannot allow venture capitalists to come in with private equity to fund the resource or the company known as Irish Water. I know Sinn Féin has proposed this. If there are shareholders coming into a company, the shareholders are going to dictate the terms. They will seek profit, which will involve screwing the customers.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill must be mixing us up with somebody else.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I am not.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Of course that is what the Senator is doing.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Cullinane should read his party's document.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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What document is the Senator referring to?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, without interruption.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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He is talking nonsense again.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Ó Domhnaill have a question for the Leader?

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We are having a debate today on Irish Water. If all Senators in this House look into their own hearts, I am sure they will find they do not want a Chinese investor, an American billionaire or someone from the Asian stock market running and controlling water, which is a finite resource and is a basic necessity for human life. That is what is going to happen here, whether we like it or not. My core belief is that Irish Water as an entity should be disbanded forthwith.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator can make those points during today's debate.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It is not fit for purpose. We can discuss this matter during the debate.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The Senator is making it up as he goes along.

Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's party is looking for private investment.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business calling for legislation to be introduced to provide for a referendum on Irish Water. I do not doubt that water is a resource of the Irish people. I do not think there is any doubt about that. The Taoiseach has stated on the record that the Government has no intention of privatising Irish Water in any way. The Opposition has no such intention either.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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That does not prevent it from happening in the future.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I do not think the Labour Party, Fianna Fáil or Sinn Féin have any intention of privatising the water supply. The Government is still preparing a package of reforms on water. The Taoiseach stated yesterday that his preference would be to strengthen the existing legislation that already prevents the privatisation of Irish Water. I think we should wait and spend a little time in advance of next week considering the Government's stance on the matter. It is preparing to strengthen the existing legislation, which already prevents the privatisation of Irish Water. Perhaps Senator Darragh O'Brien can wait and raise the matter again next week-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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No.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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-----if he feels that what the Taoiseach and the Government have come up with is not strong enough. I ask the Senator to postpone any move, given that we are having a debate on Irish Water today and in light of the fact that the Government will clarify its stance on many issues next week.
Senators Hayden and Norris expressed significantly differing views on Ruhama, which certainly does a great deal of good work to help women in both jurisdictions - in Northern Ireland and here in Ireland. Obviously, the Senators do not agree. They have different views on Ruhama.
Senator Hayden also called for a debate on the Oireachtas committee report on mortgage lending. I will certainly try to facilitate such a debate.
Senator Hayden also commented on the question of a technological university being established in the south east. I understand that Senator Cullinane has an Adjournment matter today on that matter, which will certainly bring clarity. There is a pressing need for a university in the south east. It is Government policy. I am sure the Minister will give a full reply to Senator Cullinane this evening.
Senator Coghlan urged us to take a festina lenteapproach to the matter of a referendum on Irish Water. He said we should reflect and hasten slowly. Senator Leyden pointed out that private companies are providing services for water treatment plants, etc.
I remind Senator Higgins, who spoke about medical cards, that we had a debate with the Minister for Health yesterday. The Minister gave clarity on many issues that were raised by Senators yesterday.
Senators Quinn and Jim D'Arcy spoke about the issue of diesel laundering, which was also raised by Senator Darragh O'Brien yesterday. Great strides have been made in this regard as a result of the great co-operation between the customs services, the police forces and the laboratories in the UK and Ireland. I understand they have been successful in many instances. I have asked the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State at the Department of Finance to come to this House to update Senators on the matter. I hope we can have such a debate before this session finishes. It would be beneficial at this time.
Senator Comiskey outlined the benefits that might accrue as a result of the visit of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, to China. Senator MacSharry also commented on that matter.
Senator Healy Eames spoke about the beef crisis. I gave a comprehensive reply on that matter yesterday. I pointed out that the Minister, Deputy Coveney, has chaired the third meeting of the beef round-table between processors, farm bodies and other stakeholders in the beef sector. All the stakeholders, including the farm bodies, the meat processors, the Government agencies and representatives of Tesco and McDonald's, were present. The Minister has secured a strong endorsement from all the stakeholders for the establishment of a farmer-owned producer organisation in the beef sector. It is hoped that this will help to rebalance the negotiating powers of farmers.
In this year's budget, the Minister announced details of a beef investment package worth €74 million. The beef genomics payment will increase by €100 per animal for the first ten animals. The remaining animals will be eligible for an €80 payment per animal. The Minister is aware of what is happening. He is working to the best of his abilities to address the problems that obviously exist in the beef sector. The opening of further markets in China will certainly assist in improving prices for beef

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Not if the factories are still in control.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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If the Senator is not happy with the reply, I cannot do anything about it. That is the reply I have given her.

Senator Cullinane spoke about Irish Water. I think I have addressed that matter.

Senator Landy called for the restoration of the bereavement grant.

That is a matter he can raise with the Minister for Social Protection in the course of the social welfare Bill which will come to the House in early December.

Senator O'Donovan raised the difficulties experienced by inshore fishermen in particular. We will have the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, in the House for a debate in the next week or two to speak on fisheries, which the Senator sought some time ago.

Senator Colm Burke spoke about the courts system and the need for a third Taxing Master. He outlined the difficulties in the courts system. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald. A number of justice matters are due to be dealt with in the afternoon.

Senator Paschal Mooney also raised LW 252 and called on the new RTE Authority to reverse the decision taken. I note his points also on gender-based abortion in the UK, and the overwhelming vote of MPs in the UK yesterday.

Senator Pat O'Neill called for clarification on the matter raised by Senator Mary Ann O'Brien yesterday. She referred to brown envelopes and the fact that corruption might have taken place in Kilkenny. I informed her yesterday that if she had any information on the matter she should pass it on to the Garda. It is essential that people who make allegations and raise such matters should give the information to the Garda as a matter of urgency.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear, on all issues.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senators Heffernan and Mullins spoke about the review of the electoral register. It is not fit for purpose at present and there is a need for local authorities to get their act together and to take a unified approach to the problem because as Senator Heffernan mentioned, there are people on the register who died a number of years ago and people who were removed from the register when they moved from one house to another. Difficulties have existed with the register for some years and the matter must be addressed.

Senator Thomas Byrne called for the suspension of water charges. That surprises me. Fianna Fáil seems to be panicked into a new position of abandoning water charges.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I called for it weeks ago in this House.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I am responding to Senator Byrne in his absence. Fianna Fáil has been panicked into a position to abandon water charges for an undefined period, a position not accounted for in the party's pre-budget submission. Typically, Fianna Fáil is just making up a contradictory policy as it goes along. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that radically reforming the water system for the benefit of society is a challenging task. It is the type of reform that was purposely ignored by Fianna Fáil during its 14 years in power when the country was awash with money. Fianna Fáil does not have a coherent policy on water charges.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We do. We have been very clear.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Its original deal with the troika envisaged a €400 annual charge dating from last year with no allowances. Fianna Fáil does not know where it is on the matter.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Cummins for his critique. We have a very clear policy on water. We will take what he said on board.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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If the Senator thinks there is confusion on Irish Water within the Government, there is no policy where Fianna Fáil is concerned. The party has dithered from one way to another on numerous occasions and will continue to do so.

I referred previously to what Senator MacSharry said on the beef crisis. Senator Bradford called on the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to come to the House for a debate on the undocumented Irish and the need for stronger links with the Republican Party as a result of its success in the mid-term elections.

Senator Healy Eames called on the Minister for Education and Science to come to the House to address the issue of international schools and the damage it is doing to our reputation abroad. I agree that is the case. We have seen many vulnerable students lose their money. I am aware the matter is one the Minister is attempting to address, but I will endeavour to bring her to the House to discuss the matter in early course. Senator Ó Domhnaill also made points about Irish Water.

I replied to a number of speakers who made points but who are no longer in the House. I will not do so in future. I will do my best but it is difficult. I do not wish to look across to the Opposition and see those who are missing when I cannot see who is missing from this side. It is not very nice that people from whatever party would come to the House and try to make a political or other point and then run to the media to give a press release and not listen to a response.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Senator Cummins is correct.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That has gone on in this House for far too long. I cannot solve the issue. Members should look into their own hearts and examine the manner in which they conduct themselves in the House.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 56, motion 11 be taken before No. 1 for one hour". Is the amendment being pressed?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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In the interests of clarity it has been agreed that the motion will be discussed during the debate on Irish Water which will be taking place fairly soon.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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For the first hour.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The motion is not being discussed; it will be voted on.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Silence, please. The House has decided that the first hour will be for discussion of the motion.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, does that add an extra hour to the debate? If not, that is not what is being voted on.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Order of Business-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will be here today. That is what we want in order that we can have a meaningful debate. The motion is now on the floor for the first hour and the motion will be voted on or agreed in the first hour of that debate. That is better than having statements. It is realistic and a message from the Seanad will go out about Irish Water and our resource staying as a public resource owned by the people.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Order of Business, as amended, agreed to?

Denis Landy (Labour)
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On a point of order, will the Cathaoirleach to clarify what process the debate will now take seeing as up to-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Please, resume your seat, Senator. I am asking the Leader to clarify for the House how the debate will proceed for the rest of the day and the speaking time arrangements.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The time arrangements will be the same as those I outlined. It is now midday. The Minister will be called to reply to the debate no later than 2 p.m. with the contributions of Senators on Irish Water and on the motion not to exceed five minutes.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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For the sake of clarity, the first item on the floor now is the motion which I will move. People can speak in the first hour and in the second hour. They are two separate items, one being the motion. I will move the motion at the start and the Minister will reply to the motion. The second hour will be a general debate on other issues related to Irish Water.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, that would mean that some people will not get into the debate at all and it is unfair as some people will be speaking twice.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is a matter for the Chair and the Chair is tied by the decision of the House.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I appeal to the Cathaoirleach.

David Norris (Independent)
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May I point out to the House that this means a reduction of three quarters of an hour in the total speaking time because it is stated in the Order of Business and it was agreed that the debate would commence at 11.45 a.m. and conclude at 2.30 p.m. Now it is starting at noon and ending at 2 p.m.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The House has made a decision.

David Norris (Independent)
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I am pointing out that there has been a substantial reduction and that some people will speak twice while others will not speak at all. I think that is wrong.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is not true.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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To move this on, we will work out that people on the Opposition side will not speak twice. We will work out that as many people as possible from the Opposition side will have an opportunity to speak. I do not envisage any of our speakers speaking twice. They are two distinct debates.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, I appeal to the Leader and to the House on an issue as fundamental and important to the nation as water-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order. Please, resume your seat.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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-----that adequate time is given to this debate. It is not mathematically feasible to achieve what is being proposed.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Please, resume your seat. You are wasting time. The Leader has said the Minister will be called upon to reply at 2 p.m. instead of at 1.50 p.m. Is that agreed?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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That is with regard to the statements. Will the Minister be responding to the motion?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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At what time will he respond to the motion? There will be a vote on the motion after one hour.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I ask if it could be agreed that the vote on the motion would be taken at the end because it will cut into the time.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The House decided it has to be taken after an hour.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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In that case, would the Opposition be agreeable to taking the statements first and the motion in the following hour because otherwise we will be cutting into the time for the statements? The House can decide again to change its mind and take the motion in the second hour which would be more suitable.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader will have to put that proposal to the House.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I propose that with the agreement of the Opposition, the debate on the motion will be in the second hour of the debate. I propose that statements be taken first, with the motion in the second hour, followed by the vote. If we take the motion, first we will be cutting into the time for the statements.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We want to get this very clear.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is this a point of order?

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is a point of order. The amendment to the Order of Business was that this item be taken before No. 1, statements on Irish Water, and for one hour. Therefore, the motion must be taken first because this is what the House has decided. We will work out the speaking arrangements here. It is open to the Leader to ask the Minister to extend the time he can give to statements but the motion is to be first.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Minister cannot do so.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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If that is not possible for him, so be it. However, the motion as passed by the House must be taken in the first hour.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Will someone tell me why we cannot have a vote on this now since every one of us knows our thoughts on it?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Exactly.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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All it allows is one hour for people to make their contributions about a referendum.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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They can make their contributions by their vote.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Resume your seat, please, Senator.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I will make a proposal.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Resume your seat, please, Senator.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I am only trying to help.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader has to make any proposal to the House. Does the Leader wish to change anything at this stage?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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As I said previously, I propose that with the agreement of the House we would have the two-hour debate, with one hour, being the second hour-----

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I will respond to the Leader.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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-----and that we would have the vote on the motion at the conclusion of the debate rather than cutting into the amount of time for statements.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I have a proposal that will assist. As we have tabled the motion, I propose that the motion be taken first without debate, that the two full hours be allowed for statements on every aspect, and that we first take, without debate, the motion on the referendum and the people's ownership of water in this country.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Yes. Hear, hear.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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This means that everyone would have an opportunity to speak.

David Norris (Independent)
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I second that proposal. We now have a situation where we have an hour and three quarters-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Resume your seat, please, Senator Norris.

David Norris (Independent)
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-----as opposed to the original proposal of two and a half hours.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Leader wish to make the proposal put forward by Senator Darragh O'Brien?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I will agree that it be taken without debate to get it out of the way.