Seanad debates

Wednesday, 5 November 2014

11:55 am

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, to the House for statements on Irish Water.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am pleased to have this opportunity to contribute to what is a timely debate, as I am sure we will all agree. The scale of the endeavour to set up this utility is enormous. I want to say this quite publicly because when I became Minister I wanted to show this. It was completely underestimated. It is time to hold hands up and admit that. While the timelines may have been dictated by the troika, we all accept at this stage that they were overly ambitious and unachievable. One cannot do things in two years which really will take five or six years in my opinion. I fully accept both of those. I fully accept that the scale of this project, which is the largest utility created in the history of the State, and the timelines associated with doing it were wrong.

While I was not a member of Cabinet and was not part of that decision-making process, I am now and I am responsible. I hold my hands up and admit that errors and mistakes were made regarding both of those. The complex nature of the set-up, the way that was dealt with, the charging structure and the communications of Irish Water were not what they should have been. We must now take steps to address all those issues in an open, honest and frank way, and I have to take responsibility for leading that charge.

The timelines have led to confusion, uncertainty and huge frustration for the public. Again, I fully accept this. It is time for the Government to listen and to ensure we have learned from those mistakes. We need to bring about a utility that is fit for purpose and that can develop a quality water supply for future generations. That is the critical issue. We need to develop a utility that can develop our water system for future generations. I am the father of young children; I know the requirement we have. In ten years we will have issues all over the country if we do not do something about it. We already have serious issues all over the country as it is.

As a Government, we are working on a package to bring the necessary certainty and clarity to the charging structure in particular, which has been an issue of huge frustration. I want to ensure clarity that when the public are facing into charges they are modest and affordable. Based on the experience of my clinics in County Tipperary - in Nenagh, Roscrea, Thurles, Clonmel, Tipperary Town etc. - and from what I hear from all my colleagues in the Labour Party and across other parties, including my Government colleagues in Fine Gael, there are people who are worried about preparing for potential bills in the region of €500, €600, €700 or €800. Let me be quite clear on this; this is essential. Under the package the Government is preparing, nobody will be paying these levels of charges in any way, shape or form. They will be modest and will be set out over a defined period. Nobody will be paying such charges for their water services or anywhere near that.

I fully acknowledge there have been huge failures in communication. I am personally trying to improve on that. I have to lead from the top, as the Minister with responsibility. Along with its parent company, Irish Water needs to ensure it communicates correctly and appropriately.

Irish Water has apologised to its customers and elected representatives throughout the country for the failures of the past. Many steps have been taken to rectify the position and I hope to hear from some Senators that they have witnessed the relevant changes being implemented in a positive way.

The transformation programme under way in Irish Water is significant. It involves both funding and organisational changes. Each of these is important undertakings in its own right. As a Government, we made many mistakes throughout the process. As a former Member of this House, I always like to engage in quite open debate with Senators. I acknowledge that mistakes were made but establishing Irish Water as a utility was not one of them. The latter was not a mistake; it was and remains the right thing to do. That is why I say to Senators that we need to support Irish Water.

I wish to address, first and foremost, the reasons we have set up Irish Water and why I am of the view that it will deliver long-term benefits for taxpayers and its customers. Operating water services through approximately 34 local authorities - this number changed over the years - was wholly inefficient. This was despite the major efforts made by those authorities and the people who worked for them, many of whom I know. Imagine what the ESB would be like if it was divided into 34 separate companies all developing their own plans independently, with little or no integration of planning or investment. It would not be future-proofed - it is as simple as that. Power shortages would be a regular occurrence and there would be calls on Government to rationalise and improve the system. This is what we are doing in the context of Irish Water. In other words, we are rationalising and improving the system for the future. If I could ask people to cast their minds back to two years ago, when, on the previous occasion on which the very successful web summit was held in Dublin, there were severe water restrictions in place across this great city. Some of the largest and most powerful investment companies in the world sent their representatives here on that occasion and these individuals were faced with the fact that water supplies were restricted each night. Hotels could not provide water for people to take showers and restaurant owners were restricted in terms of how they could use water on their premises. That is not the type of message we need to send out from this country to anyone.

To put matters simply, if the previous situation had been allowed to continue, our operational costs would be out of line with those of other countries and the burden of these costs would be borne completely by taxpayers. Furthermore, it was difficult to make soundly-based investment decisions through a fragmented system such as that which previously existed and which did not have a national and regional perspective on the condition of water services infrastructure and the overall priorities for investment and planned maintenance. Essentially, this is the reason that over 800 km of the water pipes in Dublin are well in excess of 100 years old. However, I will say this to those Senators who are present for this important debate that we need to reassess the role of local authorities. I am of the view that they need to be retained as a source of information and that they are a key cog in the wheel relating to local water services. As the Minister with responsibility for local government, I assure the House that this issue is being addressed. Local authorities have community connections which Irish Water has not developed and which it will not develop very quickly. They are also better equipped to communicate locally in the event of burst mains, floods and many other water-related issues.

There has been huge emphasis on the start-up costs relating to Irish Water. I accept that it was a mistake for the latter to be referred to as "consultant costs" on a couple of occasions in public. All of these costs were assessed by the utility management experts in Commission for Energy Regulation, who found that 95% of them were justified. Again, this is not the opinion of me, as Minister, or the Government, rather it is the express opinion of the independent regulator. Independent regulation is an important element of the utility model because it ensures that Irish Water's costs are scrutinised and that challenging efficiency targets are set. A major element of the operational cost of providing water services relates to energy and consumables such as chemicals for the treatment of water, etc. Already this year, through a national procurement of goods and services, Irish Water has made savings in excess of €12 million. That is the type of change a utility of this nature can bring about.

All citizens nationally deserve the same quality of water services and we must address - as a matter of urgency - the situation of people who are on boil water notices. It is completely insane that such notices have been in place in many counties for in excess of ten years. Some of these notices are in place in my county but in this regard I refer to Roscommon and other counties in particular. The current position cannot continue to obtain.

Irish Water has already adopted a new approach towards asset management and capital projects planning. Evidence of this, which needs to be aired publicly, is the targeted €170 million saving through the proposed upgrade of the Ringsend wastewater treatment plant, which I visited yesterday, as an alternative to extension previously proposed by Dublin City Council. As a result of this development, the plant will be able to treat the wastewater of in excess of 2.1 million people as opposed to 1.65 million as is the case at present. The €170 million, which relates to one project, is a major saving. It is ironic that it equates to the set-up costs relating to Irish Water in their entirety.

Historical under-investment mean that we have a water services system which is failing both customers and taxpayers. The level of investment required to bring our systems up to date runs to billions. It is expected that we will need to invest between €600 million and €1 billion in water infrastructure each year. The new funding model, which includes domestic water charges, allows us to address these legacy issues and provide new infrastructure for the future. I am excited about this new infrastructure. I travel throughout the country receiving representations from Senators and meeting members of local authorities, both collectively and individually, fellow Deputies and Government colleagues. Everywhere I go, there is a need to improve the infrastructure relating to water. To be frank, some issues relating to said infrastructure across have only come to light since Irish Water was established. Those issues relate to many local authorities and they would not necessarily have been placed overtly in the public domain.

As a commercial utility and similar to the ESB and Bord Gáis, Irish Water can borrow from the markets. In broad terms, if Government support is not more than 50% of Irish Water's operational revenue, then it will be considered under EUROSTAT rules to be a commercial undertaking. This is critical because it will mean that debt raised by Irish Water to fund capital will not count as part of Government debt and will be more favourable in terms of the general Government deficit than would be the case with moneys obtained through direct Exchequer funding. The Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, has permitted Irish Water to spend up to €1.77 billion on its capital programme in the period ahead if funding can be accessed. We simply must access such funding because we could not afford to provide the necessary level of investment through the traditional model without significant budget impacts in terms of taxation or cuts to other areas of spending. In political terms, we can all argue about the percentages, etc., involved but that to which I have just referred is a fact. It is for the reason I have outlined that we need to move to a system where funding will come directly from those who use this precious and expensive resource. The latter will create a real emphasis on the need for sustainable use of said resource.

Through the domestic metering programme, we are already seeing an emphasis on identifying customer-side leakage, which accounts for some 5% of the national leakage rate of up to 49%. Before Irish Water was created, the latter percentage was assessed as being much lower. This emphasis on reducing leakage has never before been seen and will be accompanied by a customer focus on conservation and sustainable usage in the long term that should reduce consumption by an estimated 10% to 15%.

I assure the public that the Government is working to bring clarity to how much people will pay for water. Changes in charges are coming about. Charges will be modest, fair and affordable. Householders will have certainty within the next two weeks or less about how much they will pay and those facing the greatest challenges from water charges will receive adequate affordability supports. Payment options and so forth will be flexible.

Preceding these statements on Irish Water, the House had an intense debate on the issue of privatisation. I watched it from outside. This is an emotive issue. Given my political lineage, privatisation is not something that I would tolerate or in which I believe. The commitment to public ownership of water services was enshrined in the 2007 legislation and reaffirmed in the legislation passed last year. I wish to be clear - Irish Water will remain in public ownership, full stop.

The public has the right to honest debate on this issue. There is no evidence to support the propaganda of a privatisation agenda. Devoid of any substantive argument, however, many people are still propagating this myth. Both Houses and all parties have stated that they are in favour of public ownership. If any individual in either House believes that we should privatise Irish Water at some point - I have met no one, nor do I believe I will even though I could be wrong, who believes this - will he or she please say it so that we might get a feeling for the percentage of people in question? My party would never agree to such a thing. Fine Gael has publicly stated that it would not. Sinn Féin has publicly stated that it would not. Fianna Fáil has stated publicly that it would not. Many Independents and smaller parties have done likewise.

I accept the motion that was passed by the Seanad and the House's right to do so. I welcome the debate, as it is appropriate. While I will not rule such a referendum out, given that this is an issue of public concern, I will make two remarks. First, the manner in which the Seanad voted today must be digested. I will bring that message to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste. It is my duty to do so. I will speak about it with the Cabinet. Second, we must consider other issues. For example, were we to hold a referendum on Irish Water, would we also need to hold a referendum on many other utilities? A broader debate on this question may be necessary. I am not claiming to have all of the answers. Although it is possible that we should not do so, could the Oireachtas use other mechanisms to give the assurance and clarity that people need if we are to close out any thought, however minuscule, of a privatisation agenda?

In parallel with the Government's work on water charges, Irish Water must improve its engagement with customers and public representatives. I have stated this publicly, realising the level of engagement that local authorities have had with communities about water services down the years. I was a part of that mix myself for many years. Importantly, Irish Water needs to fill that role in a way that supports the work of public representatives. It has already adjusted resources in its customer call centre, which I hope to visit in the coming days, so that the public receives quicker response times when calling to register or seek information. This re-allocation of resources has resulted in average customer response times dropping to below 20 seconds. Irish Water is also strengthening its engagement with elected representatives in other ways. It has opened dedicated telephone lines for Oireachtas Members and councillors. This evening will see it host its first weekly clinic for Oireachtas Members in the AV room, an important outlet for Members of both Houses to work with Irish Water, ask questions and get clarity on behalf of their constituents about many issues. In particular, I invite Senators to consider the issues of capital improvements and how to improve drinking water quality. Future capital investment in Irish Water has been underestimated. The scale of that investment will be colossal, but the critical elements are where the investment will go, how we will prioritise projects, how we will ensure that, for example, raw sewage no longer flows into the Avoca river in Arklow and what the timelines will be. This covers small and medium-sized issues all the way up to the significant water requirements of the conurbation that is this great city and its surrounding counties in respect of which I will have to make major decisions on how to supply water so as to ensure an adequate supply. Dublin has an excess water capacity of between 1% and 4%. It should have an excess water capacity of 20%. During the summer or when the weather otherwise affects supply, there is trouble. That is what happened two years ago.

The establishment of a unified Ervia-Irish Water board presents an opportunity to reinvigorate the organisation so that it becomes considerably more customer-focused in its operations and communications. This is a significant opportunity. I have stated publicly that the board needs expertise. I expect to see changes on the board. I am working intensely with my colleague, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, in that regard. I will speak with him again today. I expect to see advertisements for the board in the near future. The Government will identify the types of people required on such a board and ask anyone who is interested to apply through the new public appointments process. We will assess who are the best people to support this vital utility.

The Ervia group and Irish Water are actively reviewing their communication strategy to reflect the needs of all stakeholders better. I also recognise that the particular pay model in the Ervia group has been the subject of much comment and criticism. The new board's first action will be to deal with issues that are in the public's consciousness concerning pay structures and bonuses. As Minister, that current situation is not something I tolerate. If mistakes have been made, we must fix them. The board will be mandated to do so in whatever way it must.

The Government's vision is for a country in which every household connected to the public water system has a high-quality, reliable water supply and a relationship with the new, national utility based on good customer service and reliability. We need to get to that point. I will not stand here and claim that all mistakes will be wiped out overnight, as I do not want to give hostages to fortune. Mistakes will probably be made, but all I am concerned about is that they are honest mistakes and not of a scale that results in hardship.

It is a massive utility.

It is a vision for a well-funded public system in order that the utility can upgrade public water supplies, achieve low leakage levels and provide adequate levels of wastewater treatment to protect public health in the decades ahead and to keep our rivers, lakes and coastal waters free of pollution, thereby helping to maintain Ireland's image as a clean, green country, which is absolutely central to the Government's desire to promote tourism. This is essential from a tourism point of view and I certainly speak on this issue with some knowledge given my previous employment. It also is a vision for a water-secure country, notwithstanding the challenges of a rising population, economic recovery and the real concerns with regard to climate change. It will be a water-secure country in the context of global water demand being likely to exceed supply by 40% by 2020. It will be an Ireland that has a security of water supply that will guarantee current and future competitiveness for industries such as agrifood, ICT and the pharmaceutical and chemical industries, which combined provide well over 200,000 water-intensive jobs in Ireland. Such security of supply will attract further water-intensive industries to Ireland as other countries experience growing water shortages, thus creating further prosperity for this country. Ireland hopefully will address these issues quicker than anywhere else.

I genuinely look forward to the ensuing debate. My Department, my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, and I, as well as every member of the Government, will take on board the decision the Seanad made today, as well as the contributions Members are about to make in this regard. This subject matter is of great importance and it is critical that the Government makes the right decisions in this regard into the future. I am determined to promote the fact that this utility is needed but that it is needed for the right reasons. This is about the future, about water provision and about ensuring that future generations will have what this generation has had as we improve the services. While mistakes have been made, the Government will ensure that into the future, they will be addressed and we will have a utility of which everyone can be proud and which can deliver for the country. I again thank Members for their invitation.

12:20 pm

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. Each speaker has five minutes and as 19 Members are offering, I will be sticking to the clock quite rigidly. I call first Senator MacSharry, who has five minutes.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and thank him for his comments. An historic thing happened before he entered this House today, which he mentioned. I ask him to assure the House that instead of treating this engagement as little more than superficiality, he intends to bring forward legislative proposals, as voted for by his colleagues, to put this squarely in the ownership of the people. The Minister's Fine Gael colleagues did not see fit to support that motion and, clearly, they have different views. It is clear they are not as committed as the Minister's colleagues appear to be in the context of having this in the ownership of the people. I hope that whenever the Minister has finished laughing, he might listen to the point-----

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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As I was not laughing, the Senator might correct himself.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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-----which is that as an institution, as a House of the Oireachtas and as representatives of the people, Members have voted unanimously to call on the Government to initiate legislation to enshrine the ownership of Ireland's water by the Irish people. It will require a little more than looking at it, considering it or having a word with the Taoiseach. Members need that commitment from the Minister. Furthermore, the Minister stated that mistakes were made but the Government would now put things right. As the Minister was speaking in this House today, Members could see from media tweets that while he was telling them that he would be in a position to give costs within the next two weeks, 90 minutes ago he indicated it would be next week. The goalposts are changing all the time. Last night, it was the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, giving a sum of €200. Since October, there have been nine adjustments by the Government to the stated charge template of Irish Water. Frankly, the Government has joined Irish Water as a bottomless pit alive with the din of headless chickens. That is what the people think of this process.

I will make a few brief points of rebuttal. The Minister invited Members to imagine if the ESB had been split up into 34 different companies. The difference is, albeit not to the highest quality, these 34 companies are in the ownership of the people because they are housed by those who are representing the people as elected councillors. They were delivering water to every community in this State and flawed as it was, people could get quick answers. Somebody could get a connection, would pay fees and the process one followed to get it was clearly recognisable. Today, we do not have a clue although we have spent hundreds of millions of euro.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The Government is in disarray. The Labour Party has, quite rightly, shown a little bit of leadership in supporting Fianna Fáil here today but Fine Gael is nowhere to be seen. Are there any Fine Gael Members in the Chamber?

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Excuse me.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise; there are two present.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has a few facts to correct.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Two of 15. The Senator no doubt will get her opportunity to speak but in the meantime, let me say another few things. The Minister spoke about the €180 million or the €10 million about which the then Minister, Phil Hogan, lied to the people. I am using the word "lie" by using privilege in this House, which I am allowed to do. I am not abusing it but I am using privilege to say-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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A Leas-Chathaoirligh, the Senator is accusing the former Minister of lying. You could ask him to correct that.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, it is not appropriate to use the word "lie" in the House.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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No, I will correct you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. The reality is that it is appropriate to use the word "lie" when that is the truth. I merely am using parliamentary-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Withdraw the word "lie".

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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No, I will not withdraw it.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Senator, I think you should withdraw the word "lie".

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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There will be no withdrawing it.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Withdraw the word "lie".

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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But if I could finish-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Nobody lied.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I think you are out of order in using that word. That is my ruling.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate your personal view on that.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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You have one minute left.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I have chosen to use-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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This affects the House.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I have chosen to use parliamentary privilege to say the then Minister, Phil Hogan, lied to the people.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I have chosen to ask the Chair to ask the speaker to withdraw the word "lie".

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I have asked him and he has refused.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, and I will not be withdrawing it.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, it is an abuse of privilege.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I have chosen to use parliamentary privilege, which is my right. I am sure that senior Members in the House can acknowledge that.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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No, Senator, you are actually abusing your parliamentary privilege.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Can I please get on with the debate?

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is getting away with abusing his parliamentary privilege.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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This is filibustering.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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What is his mandate for abusing parliamentary privilege?

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, you have only a few seconds left in which to finish.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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No, I do not have a few seconds left.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Yes, he has abused parliamentary privilege.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I will now continue. I have-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, you went down the road of using the word "lie".

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Chair has ruled.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I will disrupt-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, please-----

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I will disrupt this entire debate.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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-----stop interrupting me.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I will disrupt this entire debate. A Leas-Chathaoirligh, let me tell you again-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Listen, Senator, I am in the Chair.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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-----former Minister Hogan lied to the people. He lied to the people by saying it was €10 million.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, I have already told you not to use that word in the Chamber.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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He told them that they had the opportunity to bill and he lied again to Deputy Cowen in the other House.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, you are abusing your privilege and your time is up.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I am using parliamentary privilege to use that word. The Minister would say-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Keane.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Excuse me, I am not finished here at all.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Your time is up.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator's time is up.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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You should have manners and let people speak.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Keane.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I was being interrupted constantly. Unless you want her contribution to be interrupted-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, you created the interruptions yourself. I call Senator Keane.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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-----you will give me some leeway here, because I will continue to speak.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, your time is up. I warned you at the outset that I would be rigid. I call Senator Keane.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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No, you did not warn me. You did not allow me to use parliamentary privilege-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Keane.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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-----to say that the former Minister, Phil Hogan, lied about the costs of Irish Water.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane has five minutes.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator-----

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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He told lies about it.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator MacSharry, please resume your seat.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not want the clock to start until he sits down.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It now is €180 million. If I could just say to the Minister-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator MacSharry, please resume your seat.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, please do not allow the time he wasted.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----the only opinion that matters-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator MacSharry, please resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are going to be obliged to suspend the House because the only opinion that matters-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, please resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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-----is that of the people, not the opinion of the regulator.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator, resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is the people who require value for money.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have been called to speak.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator, please resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is the people who require value for money, not the regulators.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have been called to speak.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator MacSharry, please resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is the €180 million about which former Minister Hogan lied.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Respect the Chair and please resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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No, I am not finished at all.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have been called to speak.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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This person has chosen to interrupt and disrupt the leader of the Opposition on this issue and on this spokesmanship.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have been called.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will continue to speak to make my point.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Your time is over the limit.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is abusing the House.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no question of me stopping to speak.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please resume your seat.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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This person disrupted the House in a filibuster and would not allow a point to be made.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, please respect the Chair.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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Suspend the House.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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So I intend to continue in this regard. I will continue by saying-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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He is abusing the House.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----what the Minister did was-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator MacSharry, as Leas-Chathaoirleach I am suspending the sitting for 15 minutes until you calm down.

Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 1.15 p.m.

12:30 pm

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, to the House. We will resume. I ask Senator Keane to proceed. She has five minutes.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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On a point of order, I am appalled by what happened here this morning. Fifteen minutes of our valuable time has been lost. The Minister is now gone.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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That is not a point of order but I note the point.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Some 150,000 people marched at the weekend.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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We are again wasting time. It is not a point of order.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I would appreciate it-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not my time Senator Craughwell is using.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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-----if those on this side of the House were allowed to finish what they have to say.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Craughwell will have an opportunity to speak on that.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Senator Keane should proceed. She has five minutes.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I would have expected the protection of the Chair to be allowed speak for five minutes when I was being constantly filibustered.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a point of order. Senator Keane should proceed.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Clearly, it is how the Leas-Chathaoirleach wishes the debate to continue and we will ensure that Senator Keane has plenty of assistance in her own address.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Starting now, I welcome the Minister of State to the House-----

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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We are not starting now. Senator Keane took up everybody else's speech.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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-----to debate what is a worrying issue for everybody.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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That is right, Senator Keane will be telling more lies than her colleague.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like the protection of the Chair.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that what Senator Keane intends to do?

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senator MacSharry allow the Senator to proceed.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Senator Keane tell the truth about Irish Water-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A lot of people are worried about Irish Water.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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-----and the quango that they set up to pay bonuses to people?

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to ask the Chair to protect me.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane to proceed.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I cannot speak.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Some 150,000 people who were protesting at the weekend are supposed to be paid up.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is totally out of order.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Just as out of order as Senator Keane was the previous time.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I propose that the sitting be suspended until 1.45 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 1.16 p.m. and resumed at 1.45 p.m.

12:35 pm

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Keane has four minutes remaining.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I have five minutes. I did not get to speak earlier.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane has four minutes.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Okay. I again welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, to the House to discuss a very serious issue which many people are worried about. I heard people express their fears on the ground recently and the situation has been ongoing since the local elections. The Government is examining the issue since last May. It will not make any rash decisions but it has been listening to people.
It has already been stated by the Government that the way Irish Water was set up and its communication leaves a lot to be desired. The Minister has apologised for that and John Tierney has apologised for it. However, it was the correct decision to set up Irish Water. People who cannot afford to pay for water will get assistance as part of the household benefits package. The Government has said the situation will be addressed for poorer people. People who pay taxes, who pay for everything in this country, will also have to be helped. The Government has said that also. Many issues relating to Irish Water must be changed.
Nobody has a monopoly on doing everything right. The previous Government agreed with the troika that there should be water charges. Fine Gael and the Labour Party agreed to set up Irish Water and the methodology for same. It is obvious that everything was not done correctly and that must be fixed. It has been agreed that Ireland has the biggest water use per capitain the EU. The EU and IMF programme of financial support for Ireland both contain commitments to reintroduce domestic water charges. Ireland is under a legal obligation from Europe to implement cost recovery. This morning when Deputy Adams was asked on the radio what he thought about the EUROSTAT arrangements and how the amount was moved off the balance sheet, he said he did not know about it. He told the EU to bugger off. I do not think we can afford to tell the EU to bugger off on such issues.
The directive from Europe must be followed and the polluter-pays principle is also important. It appears that we could be in trouble on the issue. The people have spoken on the charges and the Taoiseach has listened. Fine Gael, the Taoiseach, the Labour Party and the Government have said Irish Water will not be privatised.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Why did the Senator not vote for the referendum?

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We are sick of this. We do not believe the promises.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It was stated in the legislation that Irish Water would not be privatised. If we have to strengthen the legislation in that regard I would be in favour of spelling the situation out further in black and white. The Fine Gael position is that Irish Water will not be privatised. It will never be privatised while we are in government.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Yes, while Fine Gael is in government.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I say that loud and clear and Members opposite should take it on board. I support the setting up of Irish Water.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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More jobs for the boys.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The best way to proceed is to have a semi-State company independent of Government that can borrow on the markets, off balance sheet.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I must shout to be heard above the ignorance of the House, I will do so.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane has one minute remaining.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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If we must borrow at the rate of €1 billion a year-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane has had her say.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If we have to raise €850 million, my question is where we would get the money. Under EUROSTAT rules one cannot use funds directly-----

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I wish to raise a point of order, a Chathaoirligh.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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-----that one must pay for capital purposes unless-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane can make his point of order.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It is absolutely disgraceful that Senator MacSharry has ruined this debate today.

12:40 pm

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order. I ask Senator Cullinane to resume his seat.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Dozens of Senators will now not have an opportunity to speak because of his selfish antics here today.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Senator Cullinane to resume his seat.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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He should be ashamed of himself.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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If it was not off-balance sheet, where would we find the money for social housing, health and education? Those people who are agreeing to break the law are not coming up with that. How will they? Personally I would recommend-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have to ask the Senator to conclude as her time is up.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister. I think we should pay for water and we should pay for it when it is fair and when it is just. However, we should only pay for water when it is entirely and distinctly our own in perpetuity. It is interesting that we were never taught the words "preserve", "purify" and "supply"; we were taught the words "install" and "meter". I wonder what Irish Water was paying its PR company for that mistake. Water is number one. It is not just a right to life; it is life. We are all 60% water; our hearts are 73% water; our lungs are 83% water; and everything we eat is 93% water. So water is life; without it we cannot exist. There is nothing to compare to it. All those arguments that if we enshrine it in the Constitution, other things will get enshrined with it are puerile and facile. It is the only thing; it is liquid gold.

The World Bank has privatised water in hundreds of countries in exchange for loans. Nestlé bottles African water and calls it "Pure Life". Imagine privatising pure life.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call for silence in the Chamber. Senator O'Donnell is speaking.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Countries have been brought to their knees by vulture funds, bank speculators and corporations which put up bills, beggar the poor and rape those countries of their natural resources. The privatisation of state waters around the world has one common denominator - it always happened under pressure of international lenders. Some 34% of water throughout the world is privatised and we will not bring it up to 35%. Privatisation is always about hard technology and water rights. They privatised water in poorer areas of South Africa and disconnected it. They privatised it in Tanzania and the people had to buy it back. They privatised it in the Philippines and it gave rise to cholera. They privatised it in Paris and it took it back. They privatised it in Germany; it is now owned by the public. In the EU the selling of water supply for a financial bailout is part of the Greece and Portugal negotiations.

The Minister says it can never happen here and he is right. I know it will not because the people will not let it. Standing beside the Minister the other day, Mr. Tierney said he would like to apologise to his customers. I do not know to whom he was talking because I am not his customer. I do not know why he was even speaking like that. He was addressing the Irish public. It is true we have legislation to protect Irish Water for the people, but the legislation is loose and wayward. It can be interpreted or realigned to suit a purpose. I do not trust it and the people do not trust it. I stood alone here when we discussed the national lottery and the legislation was changed. The beet went; the infrastructure of our telecommunications went. We do not trust it.

It is also entangled with a private-public company, Bord Gáis Éireann. What is it doing with a private-public company, Bord Gáis Éireann? Bord Gáis Energy was sold to Centrica for €1.12 billion and there is much to be said on that. Fine Gael claims it will not sell it and I believe it. The Taoiseach says - I respect and admire him - he will not sell it and I believe him. Fianna Fáil claims it will not sell it and I believe it. The Independents say they will not sell it and I believe them. Sinn Féin claims it will not sell it and I believe it. However, I am not too sure I trust the future. I have hope for it, but I do not trust it because no one knows what will happen in the next five months, let alone in the next five years.

I want my child, my grandchildren and all of our grandchildren to know it will be enshrined - that is the word - in the Constitution for the people in perpetuity. It is my only message to the Minister this afternoon. There is no comparison to anything else. That is why the vultures, the swagmen and all these corporations are standing at the seashores; it is because it is like oil. It should be preserved, purified, supplied and paid for. It should be fair, just and affordable. It should be ours and not semi-ours, not private-public ours; not under the wing of Bord Gáis Éireann ours; not a bit of ours; and not half-ours. It should be constitutionally "referendum-ly" ours.

Then the Minister might start talking to the people about three things: what they should do with it; how they can best do it; and why they should personally invest in it. We cannot treat water as the largest company on earth as is being done all over the world because when we view water in economic terms we make a fundamental change about ourselves.

I ask the Minister to relay this message to the Lower House because there was a whisper from a Member here this morning when we won the vote in the House. The word was that it would not pass in the Lower House. I am not too sure about that if there are major changes. I think the Minister can enshrine it in the Constitution. He can be brave, creative, worthy of his position, and valiant.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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Following on from my vote this morning, I want to say I support the retention of Irish Water in public ownership. However, I want to put to bed a number of issues with regard to how Irish Water was structured. First, when I stand up here I always defend workers when it is justifiable. In this instance I will defend public service workers. Some 4,000 people transferred to Irish Water from local authorities. I spent almost an hour this morning on the telephone with the chief negotiator on behalf of SIPTU. I want to set out the facts of what happened. This is very important. Many so-called political commentators on the right have maligned these people.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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On a point of order, I inform the House that I am now withdrawing from the House over fact that-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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-----during this debate, apart from Senator MacSharry the only Senators being heard are on the Government side.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Landy.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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That is not democracy. It is a disgrace. You are appointed by the Government - of course you are.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask Senator Landy to resume.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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This is an absolute limitation on democracy. Closing the House down over a little spat for three quarters of an hour is complete nonsense.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Senator Landy to resume.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I am withdrawing in protest at this infraction of democracy

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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On a point of order, I am not a Government Senator.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order.

Photo of Marie Louise O'DonnellMarie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I am an Independent Senator and voted as such this morning.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy, without interruption, please.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator MacSharry is.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Keane took up a lot of the time.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Landy without interruption.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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There is one rule for Fine Gael and a different one for the rest of us.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy without interruption.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry; I have been here for too long to accept that.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy without interruption.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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Irish Water approached the representatives of the workers in the local authorities.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Senator MacSharry should be ashamed of himself; that is what I am talking about.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's colleagues are walking around with rapists.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We will have no crossfire across the Chamber. Senator Landy.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Senator MacSharry should withdraw that remark.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy without interruption.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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He is a disgrace to himself and his party.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Cullinane should deal with his own questions.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator MacSharry, please. Senator Landy, without interruption.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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It is a pity the Chair did not give me the same respect while I was trying to speak.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It is a pity I did not get the same respect.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy without interruption.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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This is the third time I will-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy, through the Chair, please.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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This is the third time, a Chathaoirligh, through the Chair-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Can I ask you to finish your contribution?

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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No, you cannot, because I have only spoken so far for 40 seconds.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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That happened to me earlier on. The Senator should talk to his colleague.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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If you are going to deny me because of this gentleman here destroying this debate-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy, please.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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-----and other Members of the House blaming us for it-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy, can you finish your contribution, please?

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister will be happy.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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If I can continue my contribution-----

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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It would be better than going around visiting call centres. He should be in here listening to people.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask Senator MacSharry to have a bit of respect for the House.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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I put the House on notice. If I am interrupted once more, I will walk out.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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Representatives of the workers were approached by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to get buy-in, support and co-operation for the setting-up of Irish Water. The staff transferred across at the request of the Department and Irish Water. Some of them are doing the same job as they have done for 30 years. For some reason, some political commentators have now decided that they are surplus to requirement in the organisation.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has one minute left.

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
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John Fitzgerald, the eminent economist-----

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Why are they getting bonuses for the same job?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Landy has one minute left.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The next speaker.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Senator Landy is right. What is happening here is a disgrace. Senator MacSharry should hang his head in shame. He is a disgrace to the Chamber-----

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Good luck.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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-----and a disgrace to his party.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call the Minister. By an order of the House the Minister is to be called to reply at 2 o'clock.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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You could extend it.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I cannot extend anything.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The Acting Leader could extend it.

12:50 pm

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister is to reply to the debate at 2 p.m.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. In deference to all of us in this House who have burst ourselves to look for this time, could I ask the Cathaoirleach and the Leader to organise an extension of time?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I cannot do so. The House decided.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The Acting Leader could propose it. I am sure we would all agree.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I would add to that.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Why does the Acting Leader not make such a proposal?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I am operating on the basis of the order that was passed by the House.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister does not decide. The Acting Leader decides.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Do not even ask me that.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Minister has been called to reply and he is on his feet.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Acting Leader to be fair on this point.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should resume her seat.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I am looking for what the Irish people need.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I would simply like to make a calm point of order. This is a hugely critical issue.

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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For God's sake, you have no credibility.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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You are adding to the reason that we are not having a debate.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, resume your seat.

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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The Senator has been blackguarding the House all day.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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You are exactly fuelling the reason that it is cut short.

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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The Senator cut short the time.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Come on, you do not want a debate.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, resume your seat.

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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The Senator has no manners. He has no respect for anyone.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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You do not want a debate. That is why you shout us down when we speak.

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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How dare you talk about the House.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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It is a bloody disgrace.

Photo of John WhelanJohn Whelan (Labour)
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You are a disgrace.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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They do not want a democratic debate in this House. They shouted down Senator MacSharry. They shout us all down because they do not want to hear what the people out there are saying.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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That is incorrect.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael and the Labour Party are a bloody disgrace.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, resume your seat.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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They are facilitated by the Cathaoirleach.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Senator MacSharry abused the House.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask Senator Ó Domhnaill to withdraw that remark.

Photo of Marie MoloneyMarie Moloney (Labour)
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Can he clarify who he meant when he said "they"?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, resume your seat.

Photo of Marie MoloneyMarie Moloney (Labour)
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None of us shouted down Senator MacSharry. He should clarify that.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I am asking the Minister to reply to the debate.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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He could extend it.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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He does not want to extend it because he does not want a debate.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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You were shouting.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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You are the one who did all the shouting.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Can we have the Minister to reply to the debate?

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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We did not have a debate. The Government would not let us have a debate.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, do you want to hear the Minister?

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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They shouted down people and now they will not extend the time.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Senator MacSharry would not let us have a debate.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, do you want to hear the Minister's reply?

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I do not particularly. I wanted to hear the other Members.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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You did not.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I wanted to hear my colleagues contribute to the debate.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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You wanted to hear yourself.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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That is what the people wanted to hear too.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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That is all you wanted.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael will not facilitate an extension.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I am suspending the House.

Sitting suspended at 2.05 p.m. and resumed at 2.15 p.m.

1:00 pm

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I wish to address issues raised in the brief contributions from Senators, which is unfortunate, in my view, but that is the way it has been, unfortunately.

I remind Senators that we need Irish Water; it is a necessity as a utility. Put simply, if we do not have Irish Water, we do not have the capacity to borrow the money to invest in much needed infrastructure to provide a water supply for future generations for domestic use, for future industrial development and many other reasons that are clear to everyone in this House. Irish Water is completely necessary. The alternative is direct funding through the Exchequer. I remind the House of the scale of what is required - €600 million to €1 billion a year - which is not a viable option.

I will address a number of issues raised - or were not raised but would have been raised probably - I wish to be fair. The issue of privatisation was raised by a number of Senators. I appreciate what this House decided and I respect this House. As a former Member of the House I always respect the debates in this House which contribute substantially to the body politic. Sometimes debates in this House can contribute in a way that is not necessarily seen in the Dáil. I will bring the decision of the House to the attention of the Government and to the attention of the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste in particular. I will not rule out that this is the road we should go. I say that out straight. It is something that will need to be digested because it is not a decision one can make very quickly but we will need to digest it.

I have some questions. First, the legitimate concern is where do we join the line as regards other areas and other utilities. I wonder whether we would have calls or cause to do the same with regard to other areas such as electricity and other areas I mentioned previously. It is a genuine issue which we may need to debate further or at least to analyse. Senator O'Donnell asked whether the Oireachtas could use other mechanisms to close off this issue. I believe the issue is closed off but it may be necessary to give extra strength to it. The Government will need to consider the possibilities. We will need to take legal advice on the matter as it is not something that can be undertaken quickly, needing, as it does, an in-depth consideration. I will make the commitment to the House that I will bring the decision made by the House today to the attention of the Government. I will explain and emphasise the nature of the decision. However, we need to look at the impact of any decision if we were to go down the road of holding a referendum. We must consider whether other mechanisms could be used to do, more or less, the same thing.

The second issue raised concerns the charges. We need to bring clarity to the issue of charges very quickly. I am wishing to do so very soon. The Government will make a clear announcement on this and other issues relating to Irish Water. However, I do not apologise for saying that my primary motive is to get this right, whether that is achieved today, tomorrow, next week or whenever. It is a case of making sure we get everything right.

The charges must be affordable and modest and they must reflect the concerns of families. They will need to be set out clearly for a number of years and this is what will happen. As I said in my opening contribution, issues relating to the pay structure and bonuses and the board of Irish Water will be dealt with in co-operation with the new board.

I expect advertisements to be made soon. I am working with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White. Through the newly created public advertisement process, we will ensure the best calibre of people. The process is an open one. We need people with defined expertise and the Government will define the type of individual we need. To be honest, this should probably have been done with greater vigour previously.

Customer communications and stakeholder management are critical issues and will improve because they must. Stakeholders across the country need to be managed better by Irish Water and the communication strategy must improve, particularly as it relates to customers. I welcome the fact that the chief executive, Mr. John Tierney, has apologised for certain failings by Irish Water in that regard. It was appropriate of him to do so.

As Senators know, representatives of Irish Water will attend Leinster House this evening. It must and will improve its stakeholder engagement. It is critical that all of the issues relating to Irish Water be explained to people, for example, why it is doing certain work, and that the necessary capital investment programme be promoted. Irish Water must also deal with the resultant inquiries. This will be done.

The capital investment programme is considerable and Irish Water needs to borrow money to implement it. The programme will fix many of the country's problems with water that are often raised in Adjournment debates or, in the Dáil, Topical Issue debates. We need a programme lasting a fixed number of years if we are to show people why we have embarked on the road of Irish Water, what charges are necessary and what results will emanate from same. This is a question of ensuring those results, for example, having the clean water that is necessary to achieve our goals.

Reference was made to Irish Water's setup costs. The independent regulator assessed 95% of those costs as being real and necessary. We must respect the regulator's independence and reflect its advice instead of trying to overshoot something that is not a genuine issue. Through the development in expertise of Irish Water, we have a better wastewater service management process, located in Ringsend in Dublin. The saving from same equals the setup costs of Irish Water, which shows the latter's value.

The next issue was not raised but, to reflect my expectation that it would be, I will address it. I understand that the use of PPS numbers is a concern. However, I must also acknowledge that our country is allocating €300 million in allowances. We need a system to verify whether they are being used correctly. Many other companies use PPS numbers. One is often asked for a PPS number in one's weekly or daily life. I am aware of Senator's Quinn proposal, which will be dealt with in the normal way of democratic debate.

I appreciate what Senator Landy began to say about the workers. It is probably something that I should have acknowledged. I believe in the democratic right to protest, etc., but I hope that every Senator will respect the fact that those workers are only trying to do their jobs to the best of their abilities. Be they local authority or Irish Water public sector workers or private subcontractors installing meters, everyone should be respected when doing this work.

An improvement is necessary and expected in the relationship between Irish Water and local authorities and in the communication of issues at local level. The process by which the changeover to a utility like Irish Water is managed needs to be improved, given the fact that customers on the ground have been dealing with local authorities for many years.

I acknowledge this debate and wish there had been more contributions. I have reflected on a number of issues that were not raised but that I anticipated would be raised. Every matter that was mentioned is being addressed. The Government has large decisions to make and is in the process of doing so. We will make an announcement on Irish Water in the near future and address people's concerns, which have been reflected in this and the Lower House and in the marches of recent weeks.

Sitting suspended at 2.25 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.