Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, with whom we served in the Seanad from 2000 to 2007.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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This is my fourth time in the Seanad this week.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is welcome back. I served, although not quite in the same capacity as him. It is nice that he had experience in the Seanad and I wish him every success in his Department which is a very important one. I know he will do an excellent job.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The purpose of the Bill is to provide that the Clerk Assistant of the Dáil will perform the functions of the Clerk of the Dáil under the Electoral Acts whenever the post of Clerk of the Dáil is vacant or the Clerk is not available through illness, absence or other cause to fulfil the relevant duties and that the Clerk Assistant of the Seanad will perform the functions of the Clerk of the Seanad under the Electoral Acts whenever the post of Clerk of the Seanad is vacant or the Clerk is not available through illness, absence or other cause to fulfil the relevant duties.

The Electoral Acts provide in many sections that, where the office of Clerk of the Dáil is vacant, the Clerk Assistant of the Dáil shall perform the duties of the Clerk of the Dáil. Similar provision is made in relation to duties of the Clerk of the Seanad. For example, section 4(4) of the Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act 1947 provides that whenever the office of Clerk of the Seanad is vacant or the Clerk is unable through illness or other cause to fulfil his or her duties, the Clerk Assistant of the Seanad shall act as Seanad returning officer. Another example is the provision in the Electoral Act 1997 for the establishment of a constituency commission to report on Dáil and European Parliament constituencies. Section 7 of the Act provides that the Clerk of the Seanad shall be a member of the commission. Section 8 of that Act provides that whenever the Clerk of the Seanad is unable to act as a member of the commission through ill health or other cause or where the office is vacant, the Minister may appoint the Clerk Assistant of the Seanad to be a member of the commission.

The Electoral Acts are not, however, consistent in making such provision and this short technical Bill addresses this anomaly in the Acts. The anomaly came to notice when consideration was being given to the making of the by-election order to fill the vacancy in the Seanad arising from the election of Senator Deirdre Clune to the European Parliament in May. The vacancy has arisen on the Oireachtas sub-panel of the Cultural and Educational Panel. The legislative provisions on filling the vacancy are set out in Part 5 of the Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act 1947 which requires the Clerk of the Dáil to perform specific functions in the by-election process. These include sending to the Seanad returning officer a "statement of the names, addresses and descriptions of all the members of the Dáil who are then entitled to sit and vote in that House". On receipt of that statement, the Seanad returning officer prepares a list which forms part of the electoral roll for the by-election.

As the office of Clerk of the Dáil is vacant and there is no provision in the 1947 Act for a person other than the Clerk of the Dáil to furnish the necessary statement to the Seanad returning officer in relation to the electoral roll, the by-election could not proceed in accordance with the Act. This anomaly came to light when notice was given last month under section 55 of the Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act 1947 of the casual vacancy in the Seanad arising from Senator Deirdre Clune's election to the European Parliament. This is an unsatisfactory and anomalous situation which is addressed in the Bill.

Rather than just dealing with the immediate difficulty of the Seanad by-election, the Government decided to examine the issue more widely. Therefore, the Bill addresses the entire electoral code where similar difficulties could arise in the future, both in regard to the Clerk of the Dáil and the Clerk of the Seanad. It provides that, in certain circumstances, the Clerk Assistant of the Dáil will perform the functions of the Clerk of the Dáil and that the Clerk Assistant of the Seanad will perform the functions of the Clerk of the Seanad. These circumstances arise where either the office of Clerk of the Dáil or the office of Clerk of the Seanad is vacant or the Clerk is unable through illness, absence or other cause to fulfil duties under the Electoral Acts and no provision is made for another person to perform the relevant functions.

I will outline the details of the Bill. Section 1(1) provides that if and so long as the office of Clerk of the Dáil is vacant or the holder of that office is unable through illness, absence or other cause to perform his or her functions under the relevant statutory provisions, the Clerk Assistant of the Dáil shall perform these functions. Section 1(2) lists the "relevant Acts" and "relevant statutory provisions" referred to in section 1(1). The functions are those in the Electoral Acts that are the duties of the Clerk of the Dáil and where no provision is made for any other person to fulfil the duties in the absence of the Clerk. Section 2(1) makes similar provisions for the Seanad. It provides that, if and so long as the office of Clerk of the Seanad is vacant or the holder of that office is unable through illness, absence or other cause to perform his or her functions under the relevant statutory provisions, the Clerk Assistant of the Seanad shall perform these functions. Section 2(2) lists the "relevant Acts" and "relevant statutory provisions" referred to in section 2(1). The functions are those in the Electoral Acts that are the duties of the Clerk of the Seanad and where no provision is made for any other person to fulfil the duties in the absence of the Clerk.

Section 3 contains standard provisions dealing with the Short Title, construction and collective citations.

This is a short technical Bill. The goal is to ensure Dáil and Seanad elections can proceed in accordance with the legislative provisions and requirements when there is a vacancy in the office of Clerk of the Dáil or Clerk of the Seanad or the Clerk is absent for one reason or another. The Bill takes a sensible and pragmatic approach to addressing the inconsistencies in the Electoral Acts on this point and I commend it to the House.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Fianna Fáil supports the Bill, but it is outrageous that the situation is allowed to continue where no Clerk of the Dáil has been appointed. It is outrageous that the Bill must be brought before us and the Minister, whom I should welcome in his new job-----

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Just before giving out to him.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I am not giving out to him. It is not his fault, as he has only been in the Cabinet since this week. It is the fault of the Government, including the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin; the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, and the Taoiseach. Senators cannot blame Fianna Fáil for this one as the issue arose last year. The Minister is new to the job, in which I wish him the very best. I am delighted he has been appointed to it.

It is amazing to see newly appointed Ministers coming into the House this week, whom we all wish the best of luck, who have not had the chance to take a second look at the legislation put before them. I see Ministers in the Dáil answering questions on issues about which they cannot know much in their first few days in office. They should have taken a breather on legislation and questions to apprise themselves and look at matters afresh in the Department. They have the summer to do so on most issues and I urge them to take that opportunity. They are elected to give their views and appointed by their leaders because of their talent and insight and their parliamentary party members, as well the public, expect this from them.

This is stopgap legislation while the position of Clerk of the Dáil remains unfilled. This issue came to light last week when the Government lost a vote and, all of a sudden, legislation is being rushed through. What has happened between the Ceann Comhairle and the Government is an unseemly spat that is continuing and does not reflect well on the day-to-day running of the national Parliament. No Clerk of the Dáil, a critical member of staff, has been appointed. While we are talking about the post of Clerk Assistant of the Seanad, I congratulate Mr. Martin Groves who was recently appointed to the position.

I would love to oppose the Bill, but I cannot stand in the way in holding a by-election to the Seanad. That would be undemocratic, but we need answers on what is happening between the Government and the Ceann Comhairle. Legislation such as this which has an impact on the workings of the House should not come from the Government but from the Houses. Part of the problem is that, despite all the talk, we do not have a separation between the Government and the Parliament. The work of the Parliament on a day-to-day basis is mandated and directed by Ministers and officials in Departments. I say this with no disrespect to them because that is the system we have in place. We would like to see a Clerk of the Dáil being appointed in the proper way, respecting the independence of the Parliament. We will support the Bill and will not stand in the way in holding a by-election which the Government will surely win owing to the electoral system. I hope, however, that there will be competition within the parties for the seat and that there will not just be one candidate. Under our stewardship, there was more than one candidate from Fianna Fáil running for these positions.

I would like the Minister to address the issues raised, but we genuinely wish him the best of luck. The Bill should have been held off until he had had a chance to look at it over the summer and discussed it with his colleagues.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister. What is proposed in the Bill must be done because the need for it dates back to 1947, when the principal Act was brought into force. I do not know who was in power at that time - perhaps one of my colleagues can inform me - but whomever it was left an anomaly in the original legislation. As matters stand under the existing Act, if the Clerk of the Dáil or the Clerk of the Seanad becomes ill, there is no one to take his or her place. We know that those who have occupied those positions in recent years are great people. I pay tribute to Mr. Kieran Coughlan, the former Clerk of the Dáil who retired recently. His shoes will be hard to fill. I also pay tribute the very fine Clerk of this House. There may have been times when neither she nor Mr. Coughlan were available to fulfil the duties assigned to them under the 1947 Act and the fact that, under the Act, no one would have been available to take their places is an anomaly. The Bill before the House provides that the Clerks Assistant of both Houses can step into the breach if the Clerks are indisposed.

Under the 1947 Act, by-elections cannot currently take place because there is no Clerk of the Dáil in the aftermath of Mr. Coughlan's retirement. As the Minister indicated, the Bill is a technical amendment to the existing Act. I accept that there are other changes which must be facilitated, including appointments, etc. I do not know when the position changed in respect of Government seats in the Seanad becoming vacant and the matter being referred to the relevant panel in order that it might elect a replacement Member. Perhaps we should consider re-empowering the various panels again in this regard. The latter has never been done and it is not facilitated under the legislation before us. Perhaps the matter could be dealt with in the context of Seanad reform. It is not on the agenda for today and it would be leading people astray if we were to pretend that it is.

I thank the Minister for coming before the House. He outlined what is involved here and I will not repeat what he said. I commend the Bill to the House.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, back to the House. He and I served together for a period in the Seanad not that long ago and I am delighted to see him back. I am also delighted by the colourful ties he wears. People in this House usually wear ties that are very dull.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Minister is like the Senator, he goes in for style.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I like a bit of competition.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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My daughter bought this one for me.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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This is a very interesting debate.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I am opposed to the Bill. Senator Byrne explained his concerns very well in respect of it. Why has the position of Clerk of the Dáil remained vacant for over a year? I just cannot understand why that is the case. Now, we are changing the law. The Minister has explained why the latter is happening but he did not indicate why the position of Clerk of the Dáil, which was previously held by Mr. Kieran Coughlan for quite some time, has remained vacant. The atmosphere in the Seanad has become very healthy in recent times. This is a result of the fact that we are obliged to debate everything because the Government does not have an automatic majority. That has been a welcome development. Last week, Senator Crown tabled a very sensible amendment and won the ensuing vote in respect of it by a margin of one - 27 to 26. This makes the Seanad very sound and democratic. We debate every matter in the knowledge that the balance could go one way or the other.

In the period 1994 to 1997 one Government fell and was immediately replaced by another without an election. The previous Taoiseach's nominees remained Members of the Seanad and suddenly there was no longer a Government majority here. That was particularly helpful to the five Independent Members of the House - there had been six of us but one of our number became the Labour Party Whip - because we held the balance of power in many instances. This meant that Ministers were obliged to take account of our views. I recall on one occasion being approached by the then Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Mervyn Taylor, who sought to convince me that we needed to change something we had done the previous week. The debates which took place in the House at that they were both robust and good and this was due to the fact that the Government did not have an automatic majority.

What the current Government is doing in the form of the Bill before us is changing the law in order to regain its majority in the Seanad. That is a disgraceful affront to citizens who were promised more democracy when the Government lost the referendum on the abolition of the Seanad. What is being done here is hypocritical, particularly in view of the fact that the Taoiseach promised a "democratic revolution" in 2011. We have been waiting three years for real Seanad reform. It is extremely regrettable that the Government has resorted to this solution which is being rushed through the Oireachtas and about which, as Senator Byrne indicated, we only found out last week. I wish the Government would place as much emphasis on concrete reform of the Seanad. One of the simplest and most straightforward ways in which we might improve democracy in this country would be by making the Seanad more democratic and giving it increased powers in order that it might take a second look at legislation and provide the necessary counterweight to the Dáil.

The group Democracy Matters, of which I was a member, campaigned in last October's referendum on that basis. We did not campaign for the House to be retained in its current guise, rather our aim was to have it reformed. Our goal was to create a new, democratic Seanad in respect of which everybody would have a vote. Last year's referendum was, unfortunately, the first occasion on which many citizens had been in a position to cast any kind of vote in respect of the Seanad. How long will they be obliged to wait until they can do so again? The Government must extend the right to vote in respect of elections to his House. Senator Crown introduced a Bill on the matter, which was accepted, as have Senator Zappone and the Fianna Fáil Senators. All three Bills provide solutions that can work. We can and should have a democratic Seanad, without the whip automatically forcing everybody on the Government side to vote in a particular way on each occasion. One Government Senator indicated earlier that he has, on occasion, been obliged to vote against his own best judgment because he was instructed to do so and did not want to lose the whip.

David Norris (Independent)
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What about those in Fianna Fáil today?

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I suppose the situation is the same. What is being done here is undemocratic and unhelpful and it will make the atmosphere in the House less healthy. The only way such an atmosphere can be maintained is if we retain the current system.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister, Deputy Kelly. This is the first time he has come before us since his elevation.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not. He has been here previously.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I apologise. This is the first occasion on which I have been in the House when the Minister has been present.

As the Minister stated, this Bill is a technical measure to ensure that democracy can be seen to be working to its fullest in this House. I am pleased Fianna Fáil has decided to support the Bill. All of those who are elected to serve, either here or at some other level, believe in democracy. I cannot understand why anyone would oppose the Bill on the basis that it does not uphold democracy. There is a vacancy in the House and it should be filled. The reason it has not yet been filled is outlined in the Bill. As such, there is a need for us to tidy up matters and get our house in order.

I completely respect the views expressed by Senator Quinn in respect of the broader issue of Seanad reform. As he is aware, I canvassed alongside those in Democracy Matters in the south east during last year's referendum. However, the Bill relates to filling a vacancy in Seanad Éireann and providing an enabling process in that regard. It does not relate to the bigger issue of Seanad reform. I urge all Members to support this Bill because it will allow democracy to be upheld and ensure that the vacancy which currently exists is filled.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister, Deputy Kelly, to the House and wish him well on his appointment. I hope his presumably happy memories of his time in this House-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Absolutely. Very happy memories.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
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-----will cause him to look kindly on it and its future. Along with his Government colleagues, he should treat seriously the decision of the people last autumn not simply to retain the Seanad but to seek actively to develop it, particularly by having elections to it based on a universal-suffrage arrangement.

I do not have to cover again the ground covered by some of my colleagues but must point out that the Government is considering a number of Bills at this stage. Most Ministers will tell us the next general election will not take place until the spring of 2016, which gives the Government sufficient time to carry out real, meaningful Seanad reform if it is serious about it. The next time we will be debating Seanad politics in this House, I hope it will be as a result of the Minister having taken seriously what the people said last autumn, namely, that they want an updated, modernised Seanad playing a role in the democratic process of the State, with every citizen having an equal vote in Seanad elections, irrespective of what system we devise.

There is a technical Bill before us today to allow the by-election. Obviously, it will be approved and the by-election will take place. I have been around the Houses long enough to know how by-elections are conducted. With the overwhelming Government majority in both Houses, a candidate representing a Government party will obviously win the seat. There is a Fine Gael vacancy. I am not sure whether the strategy for the seat is part of the revised programme for Government but I presume it will go to the Fine Gael Party. While I am not in a position politically to lecture the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party or its managers, I certainly hope that whoever puts his or her name forward for election to this House will at least have been neutral during the Seanad referendum campaign last autumn. It would be grossly hypocritical if somebody who pronounced opposition to the Seanad last year and went on the record to suggest it should be abolished now sought election thereto.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Paul Bradford (Independent)
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It would be deeply hypocritical not only on the part of the candidate but also on the part of the political party standing the candidate. There are very many elected members of the Fine Gael Party who are deeply opposed to the party's position on the abolition of the Seanad. There were many Fine Gael public representatives, particularly councillors, who not only opposed the referendum but certainly voted against abolition. I hope the successor to Ms Deirdre Clune will be from the ranks of people who supported the Seanad last year.

It would just add to the public's already deeply cynical view of politics if somebody who said the Seanad should be abolished sought election to it. I know from my knowledge of the Fine Gael organisation and Fine Gael local authority members across the country that a majority of the latter were opposed to the abolition of the Seanad. I hope it is from the ranks of those people who supported the Seanad that our new Senator colleague will emerge. The successful candidate will enter a Seanad system that is still operating under the old electoral process and old view of what the Seanad is or should be. I hope the main substantive debate on the Seanad over the next 18 months will not be about by-elections or a by-election-facilitating Bill but about the reform of the House.

Just as all of us in politics have a shelf life, the Minister will have a shelf life in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. He may transfer to other positions - I had better not say better positions. His time in the Seanad was brief and he moved on to European politics. In the European Parliament, he met colleagues whose parliamentary systems had two houses equivalent to the Dáil and Seanad. He met people who believed parliaments should be debating fora rather than dictatorial fora. He will have met Members of the European Parliament who did not simply chant party lines but thought and voted in a very independent fashion. I hope the Minister's experience in this regard will lead him to believe we could have a much better Seanad and that the starting position will have to be based on an electoral system in which every citizen is respected and has an entitlement to vote. I hope that will be his Seanad project between now and the next election.

I wish the Minister well with his endeavours. I appreciate what the main Opposition party, Fianna Fáil, has said on this particular proposal. If that is the Fianna Fáil view, this Bill will certainly be passed. I hope the Seanad seat vacated by our friend and colleague Deirdre Clune will be occupied by somebody who at least supports the Seanad, not by somebody who opposed it and its existence.

John Crown (Independent)
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I really warmly welcome the Minister, Deputy Kelly. Minister of State, Deputy Coffey informed us yesterday that the Minister was seriously examining the issue that has arisen with respect to the SSNO grant from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It was encouraging, cheering and heartwarming to hear this will be considered. Nobody here believes that the Minister, or any other, operates in an economic vacuum, and we understand that for every cent spent on one thing, there is an opportunity cost such that it cannot be spent on another. I was asked to raise the issue. The response I got was one of the more positive ones I have received. It was nice to hear one that did not give the usual turgid, Civil Service reason the Department must sadly say "No".

I am not really a politician. What I do here comprises approximately 45% of my life. I still think of my day job as the big job. However, I revere democracy and the process of democracy. One does not have to read the newspapers to learn how gruesome all the alternatives are and how much democracy can be under threat in so many parts of the world. It is in this regard that I found myself in an awkward set of circumstances, somewhat similar to that experienced by Senator Byrne and, I suspect, other individuals on this side of the House. I do not want to stop an election but I will not support this Bill. The Bill will pass and mine will be a protest vote. I will outline why I must oppose it. First, we hear that the original legislation that requires amending has been around since 1947. Perhaps a little lesson is to be learned regarding the alacrity with which we spot deficiencies in our legislation if we are now considering legislation that was passed when Truman was US President, Pope Pius XII was Pope and Stalin was still in the big office beside Red Square. Things need to move a little faster.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator was not born at that stage.

John Crown (Independent)
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I was not. My father had not left Leitrim at that stage to go to New York.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Let us not go into the details.

John Crown (Independent)
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I do not believe my vote or that of anybody else is blocking the election. The people who are blocking it are those who have not appointed a clerk to the Dáil for the past year.

David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

John Crown (Independent)
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This could be fixed on picking up the telephone. No disrespect whatsoever to the office of the Clerk of the Dáil but I strongly suspect the problem has not been finding a suitably qualified person. I do not believe it is a case of finding someone uniquely qualified. It is impossible to escape two conclusions, one being that the problem has not been fixed because of a manifestation of some kind of power struggle between official officers of our democracy - not including the Minister - or those who represent the highest levels of government and those who represent the Chair of the Dáil. There is a somewhat less savoury interpretation, which is that because so many of these jobs sadly become a manifestation of political patronage, there is no concordance regarding the one or two people earmarked for the job. I have real difficulty in understanding why this matter should be regarded as an emergency today and why it could not have been fixed earlier. I am not an obsessive, nerdish follower of the arcane processes of parliamentary procedure. I looked up today the date on which the last incumbent resigned and saw July. I believed movement was pretty quick until I saw the date was July 2013, a year ago. It was all over the newspapers that this was happening a year ago. Why is it becoming such an issue today? The Minister has been given the thankless job of representing a policy that clearly has been in place but which is wrong. It is just not the way this should happen. The job should have been filled a long time ago.

I have a very specific question that the Minister probably cannot answer today.

What level of expense is involved in passing a legislative measure, rather than just appointing the person last year?

There is also an opportunity cost associated with passing legislation because other legislative measures will not be passed or will be delayed or will not be drafted because the expertise of the people who draft and scrutinise legislation must be used in drafting this legislation. I know from experience that a Bill we tried to pass two years ago on something as simple as banning smoking in cars where children were present which we had hoped would be in place to stop children being exposed to cigarette smoke during their summer holidays in 2012 was delayed for two years because we were told the people who drafted Bills were desperately over-worked and understaffed. I will seek a division to make a tetchy protest "No" vote on this issue. The message must be conveyed that this is an illustration of something that is wrong with the political process.

Again, I thank the Minister for his attention to the SSNOs. My colleagues in the Neurological Alliance of Ireland were very encouraged by the fact that somebody as senior as him was giving it attention. I wish the Minister the best with his new responsibilities.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Minister on his elevation to the post of Cabinet Minister.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I used to sit in the Senator's seat.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I know. I believe I sat in front of the Minister in the last Seanad. It is good he has this role because he has an understanding of this House, what it can do and what it could do, if it was given teeth. It is good that this is now in his remit and I believe history will be kind to him if he grabs hold of it. Let us face it, the Government has been less than decent in how it has perceived and handled the Seanad. The Minister now has a leadership role in that regard. I also take the opportunity to congratulate my former colleague, Deirdre Clune, on winning a seat in the European Parliament, thus vacating her seat in the Seanad.

I wish to make three points. Undoubtedly, other Senators have asked this question, but why has the post of Clerk of the Dáil not been filled? As Senator John Crown said, the post was vacated one year ago, but it had been flagged for months in advance. We knew the vacancy would arise. We have read the speculation that the Ceann Comhairle, Deputy Sean Barrett, had a disagreement with the Taoiseach, that there was jockeying for the position and about who should get it. Fundamentally, until we get rid patronage and favouritism and bat for professionalism and competence, we will not be in touch with what the people want. This cute hoorism must leave politics. We all know that it is happening every minute of every day. We need only look at how the positions were allocated in the reshuffle. I spoke this morning about the three Gs - how geography lost out in terms of those from Galway and the west; how the Gaeltacht and Gaeilge lost out and how gender lost out in terms of women losing out. However, that is not the reason I am contributing to this debate. I have asked my first question as to why the post has not been filled and when we will start to bat for professionalism and competence.

In conversation with a person outside the House last night I said one of the things that made me have a great deal of confidence in Ireland was the hearings we held last year when we invited professionals to appear before Members. They were psychiatrists, doctors and legal professionals. When one leaves the professional world and comes into this one, one is in danger of forgetting the professional standards in society. While the post in question remains unfilled, the same is happening here. We are saying there are no competent professionals among the public, which is not true. I agree with Senator John Crown. The Government is blocking the Bill, not the Members of the House who vote against it, although I do not doubt that it will be passed.

The second point that must be made concerns the importance of listening to what the people said in the referendum. They said they wanted this House to be retained and reformed. They want it to have adequate teeth to hold the Executive to account. That means, at least, a vote for every person. The Minister's big challenge is to ensure there is universal suffrage, not just university suffrage which, while it would benefit me and others, would still leave 75% of the population outside the loop. It also still leaves the House at risk of being called elitist, something I abhor. Unless we heed the result of the referendum, we are answering in the negative the question, "Do people and democracy matter?"

A new job has come into existence that is becoming very important to companies. It is about analytics in the social media world. People are being hired to see what is being said about companies. Big companies such as Vodafone, Meteor and others are investing in people to engage in analytics to get to the back story of what the public thinks about them. We have been told by the public what it thinks of this House and that it wants to retain it. Can we, please, just pay the public a little respect and enact legislation?

I support what Senator Paul Bradford said. When the candidate is nominated by the Government parties - I do not doubt that it will be a Fine Gael candidate - I hope it will be a woman, given that a woman vacated the seat and in view of the poor gender allocation we saw this week. Second, above all, let it be someone who is not hypocritical and wished to abolish the House. It really is outrageous that Senators on the other side of the House openly campaigned to abolish the House but still remain in it and take a salary. That is the utmost hypocrisy. I wish the Minister the best of luck.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I support the Bill which is a technical measure. The issues raised by my colleagues concern the need for wider reform and to bring forward the reforms needed to ensure universal suffrage. When the Bill dealing with the university Senators is brought forward, we must ensure there is a proportionate balance when we examine it. However, I support this technical Bill as we must fill the vacancy.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator David Norris. All Members are delighted about his return to good health.

David Norris (Independent)
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I do not support the Bill. I do not believe there is a huge variety of talent among the public that is equipped for this task. I remember that when I was elected to the House a number of years ago, there was a very distinguished Clerk of the Seanad, Mr. Kieran Coughlan, who went on to become Clerk of the Dáil. He played a very significant role in a quiet way. However, the tradition, practice and law up to now has been that the Cathaoirleach wrote to the Taoiseach with a name and the Taoiseach nominated that person. This Bill represents a very significant and dramatic stripping away of the powers of this House. I oppose it for that reason alone. It is clear - it is a fact - that the Taoiseach is intent on grabbing as much power as he possibly can. That is very undemocratic.

On the question of reform of the Seanad, the Government's moves in this regard have been laughable. It has done absolutely nothing. It has looked at tinkering with the university seats in a disastrous way. The only element that is democratic, in which the ordinary members of the nominating body are enfranchised, is under attack. We are already democratic, but the Government is expanding the electorate to 850,000 voters for six seats.

In respect of the next group of 43 Senators elected by delegated universal suffrage there are fewer than 1,000 voters, all of whom are politicals instructed by their parties how to vote. They have 43 seats. Then one has the golden ticket of the Taoiseach's nomination. He nominates 11 Members without even a farce of an election. By its alleged reform, the Government is increasing and maximising an already glaring discrepancy. My colleague, Senator Sean Barrett, introduced legislation which would have increased the university seats satisfactorily while taking a seat here or there from some of the other groups. That was defeated on the instructions of the Government. People have talked about whipping and it is clear that the Government has handed down instructions on how to vote in this matter to its own side. It is also clear that Fianna Fáil Members have been instructed how to vote. It is extraordinary that the overwhelming majority of Members of this House have been instructed by the Dáil what to do to strip away the Seanad's powers. Anyone talking about hypocrisy, as one of the preceding speakers this morning has, can see it there. For those clear and simple reasons, I will vote against the legislation.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, back to the House. The legislation has come about as a result of an anomaly which means a by-election cannot be held in respect of a seat in the House where a vacancy has arisen as a result of the election to the European Parliament of our former colleague, Deirdre Clune. I wish her very well in her role as an MEP.

The main question on this side of the House is why the vacancy which arose on 5 August last year has not been filled. There has been a public spat between the Ceann Comhairle and the Taoiseach, which has done nothing for the lower House and democracy in the State. If the Bill before the House was introduced after the filling of that vacancy, there would not be a difficulty. It makes perfect sense to me that in the absence of the Clerk of the Dáil through illness or otherwise, the Assistant Clerk should be able to carry out the same duties. The Bill is being supported by Fianna Fáil for that reason. It is also being supported because we do not want to prevent a by-election in respect of a seat in this House. We want to know from the Minister why the position of Clerk of the Dáil has not been filled for almost a year.

We support the Bill to facilitate a by-election. Like Senator Healy-Eames, Senator Bradford and others, I hope the Fine Gael candidate is a supporter of the House and not someone who campaigned to abolish it. I hope that happens. If the Taoiseach follows his usual protocol, however, he will put in someone who actively campaigned to get rid of the House. We do not want to prevent the by-election and note that it makes sense that the Assistant Clerk should be able to carry out in full the duties of the Clerk of the Dáil in that official's absence.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I sincerely thank everyone for his or her good wishes, which I appreciate. The Bill is very technical. I ask for support for it on the basis that whether one likes the legislation or not, the democratic process must continue. We can debate the merits and demerits of the process in place, but that is what is there at the moment and it must be initiated. I thank the Members who are supporting the Bill. I understand the frustrations of the Members who referred to the non-filling of the vacancy and the ongoing debate over years on Seanad reform. As someone who sat in the House for a couple of years, I have great respect for the Seanad. It had a huge influence on me and my career. It also had a huge impact on me regarding the debating process. It is quite healthy and I am very much a supporter of it.

I have been in the post since last Friday and I do not want to indicate that I can change the world. It would not be right to say that. However, I note that I will look very closely at what is achievable as regards reforming the Seanad in a positive way in the next 18 to 20 months or other period the Government is in place. I am determined to look at the matter in depth and to take on board everyone's views. I am determined also to use my experience of the Seanad, which was not that long ago, to influence and change positively the way things work. We have learned a great deal about the Seanad in recent years and we must embrace change. Everyone needs to pull together. There are elements of what many speakers said today that I endorse.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Well said.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is time to move on the debate to what we are going to do rather than to shout about various options. I intend to push up the ladder the agenda of Seanad reform instead of talking about doing something. There has been enough debate and commentary on it.

David Norris (Independent)
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I hope that is not just the university seats.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will look at everything. Colleagues will know as I have sat among them and sometimes get into trouble for it that I am a straight shooter and say things as they are and as clearly as I can. I will continue to do so. That is a commitment I make. I will not sit here and say I can change the world in relation to Seanad reform, but I say that I will look thoroughly at the matter. I was appointed only last week, but this is something I have always felt was necessary. It would be wrong of me not to look thoroughly at it given the space I am in. I fully intend to do so. However, I want to move on the agenda from talking about this to embrace everyone's thoughts, not just those from the Government side. This needs a holistic approach. I thank Senator Crown for what he said on SSNOs. I hope to have more definite details in the next day or so.

This is not about patronage, favouritism or jobs for the boys. It is a very technical issue we are trying to sort out. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, will put in place arrangements for the filling of the position of Clerk of the Dáil almost immediately. I expect the post to be advertised publicly very soon. That negates the view that some sort of patronage will be involved. It is fair to say that there were issues in relation to the filling of the vacancy. While I will not go into the matter in detail, it was probably part of the reason the legislation was delayed. It is regrettable that it took this length of time. I have to be straight about that. However, the matter is being dealt with and I expect the appointment process to go ahead speedily, which is very necessary.

I ask the House to support the Bill and I make a broader commitment to Seanad reform.

I will not leave hostages to fortune and claim that the Seanad I would like to see will develop in the next 20 months, but I will put in place the process by which the reform agenda will enter into action. We will deliver change for the Seanad in terms of how it operates, its electoral process and its place in the democratic process. It is necessary that the Seanad be different than the Dail. I have sat in both Houses as well as the European Parliament. Senator Bradford suggested that my time in Europe might influence me. It very much will, as I learned much about how debates should be handled, issues could be addressed across groupings, the question of whips and so forth. My experience will inform my agenda now. I do not have a monopoly on good ideas, so I will embrace suggestions from every side of the political spectrum.

On that note, I hope Senators will respect the fact that I have only been in this position since Friday and these are my initial thoughts on the Seanad reform matter. I ask them to support this technical Bill. The Bill is necessary, which is the only agenda at work.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Heffernan voted in the wrong space but it does not alter the vote result, Tá, 37; Níl, 6.

John Crown (Independent)
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The entire other side voted in the wrong space.