Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to have the opportunity to visit the Upper House today to hear Senators' views on the serious matter of mother and baby homes, following the significant decision of the Government yesterday to approve my proposal for a commission of investigation.

At the outset, let me say that we are now at a planning stage. Yesterday, the Cabinet agreed that the complexity and gravity of the issues raised by Tuam required a commission of investigation which would look at a broader range of issues and would not be confined to Tuam alone, but a great deal of additional groundwork is required before that commission is established, notwithstanding my commitment to have it established before the Houses rise for the summer recess in late July.

Of course, we are all mindful of the revelations that led us to where we are today, namely, the publication of revelations about the Tuam mother and baby home that identified a high rate of infant and child mortality combined with uncertainty and disturbing suggestions about the burial arrangements that may have taken place in or adjacent to that home over the years. The genesis of those revelations lay in the work of local historian, Catherine Corless, who felt that the dignity of the deceased children had to be recognised and respected.

I have great admiration for Ms. Corless's work and commitment in this regard and I share her views in respect of the need for the dignity of deceased children to be respected. Indeed, yesterday in the Dáil I made the point that we must be careful in our use of language and mindful of the fact that while the figure of 796 children has been almost casually referred to in some quarters, the reality is that each of those 796 children was an individual, a citizen, a son or daughter. The matters now under consideration concern real people and I am appealing for this fact to be borne in mind at all times. We are dealing with personal histories here and it is not the time for sensationalism or political grandstanding.

Similarly, I have made the point from the outset that it is mistaken to rush to simplistic judgment on these matters. That is part of the rationale for a commission of investigation. The situation pertaining to mother and baby homes is complex. It is often harrowing. It is highly personal for those involved. It defies a simple explanation. It warrants far more than a simplistic analysis.

As Senators will be aware, I established a cross-departmental group of senior officials and involving other agencies such as the National Archives, for the purpose of performing a scoping exercise. This committee has been meeting for the past ten days. I understand it will be meeting again before the end of this week. Tuam brought to the fore the issues of infant and child mortality and burial arrangements. These are but two of the issues that I would like to see examined in the context of mother and baby homes. Questions remain unanswered about the nature of adoptions and the issue of vaccine trials. Significant legal difficulties have been identified in seeking answers to these questions in the past and it is my intention that the commission of investigation can make progress where past investigations have failed.

The work of the interdepartmental group is continuing and this work will play a crucial role in informing Government decisions regarding the terms of reference for the commission of investigation. As I have said, I would like this commission of investigation to examine a number of matters. Equally, I am a realist. I want this commission to be able to conduct its work in a timely and efficient manner. I do not want to see it descend into a bottomless quagmire. Therefore, I am committed to clear and reasonable terms of reference. I accept that there are many questions to be answered about aspects of our history. However, I also believe that the reasonable person will accept that if a commission of inquiry is to complete its work in an efficient manner, its terms of reference must be realistic. However, I do not want to prejudge the outcome of the deliberations and information gathering by the interdepartmental group, comprising people from almost all Departments with the exception of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Departments of Health, Education and Skills, Children and Youth Affairs, as well as the Departments of the Taoiseach and Tánaiste and including agencies such as the National Archives.

Yesterday, I welcomed the fact that a number of church leaders had spoken positively about the concept of an investigation into mother and baby homes, among them a number of senior figures in the Catholic Church, including Coadjutor Archbishop of Armagh, Eamon Martin, Archbishop Neary of Tuam, Archbishop Martin of Dublin and Bishop Buckley of Cork and Ross. I also welcome the comments of the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin and Glendalough, Michael Jackson. I welcome the support that church leaders have offered and I am calling on them and on all those in religious institutions with access to records and documentation to co-operate fully with the commission of inquiry once it is established.

It is my contention that yesterday's Government decision to establish a commission of investigation underlines the seriousness of our approach to the matters raised in the context of mother and baby homes. Since coming into power, this Government has shown its willingness to confront and shine a light into the dark aspects of our recent social history.

Clearly, a number of options were before Cabinet yesterday. These included a tribunal of inquiry. The difficulty with this approach is the huge costs associated with tribunals due to the constitutional protections that create a need for legal representation for all parties giving evidence. Moreover, we have seen over the years, it is the nature of tribunals to meander into areas that were not part of their original remit, thereby slowing down the process of reaching conclusions very considerably. Options such as an inquiry by an Oireachtas committee was also an option, but would be unsatisfactory in the light of the possible legal obstacles concerning some of the matters at issue. Therefore, Cabinet deemed a commission of investigation to be the preferred approach to this matter of urgent public concern. Under the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004, a commission has the power to conduct its investigation in any manner it considers appropriate within the parameters of the Act. It must seek and facilitate the voluntary co-operation of people whose evidence it requires. It is entitled to compel witnesses to give evidence. It can direct a person to provide it with any documents in the person's possession or power relating to the matter under investigation.

If any person fails to comply, the commission can apply to the court to compel compliance or it may impose a costs order against the individual for the costs incurred by all other parties arising from the delay.

It is also of significance that the approval of the order establishing a commission must be approved by the Houses of the Oireachtas. In this context, I welcome the support of colleagues on all sides for the Government's commitment to investigate matters relating to mother and baby homes. Yesterday in the Dáil, Deputies were positively disposed to the Government's decision. I am hopeful that Senators will share that spirit of co-operation. I look forward to hearing the views of Senators on these issues. I expect that the contributions made this evening will be taken into account by the intergovernmental group, which continues to meet and will meet before the end of this week.

I would like to conclude by reiterating a point I made yesterday in the Dáil. I welcome what I see as a growing national consensus in politics, in churches and among the public. That is absolutely essential if, as a people, we are prepared to face up to our past rather than shying away from the issues at hand. We must implement transparency in governance as we move forward, while also seeking to bring transparency and openness to the actions of the past. The agreement reached by the Government yesterday to establish a commission of investigation represents an historic opportunity for this country to take a united approach to dealing with one of the most tragic and traumatic chapters in modern Irish history.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. I welcome the announcement of the establishment of a commission of investigation to examine what happened in the mother and baby homes. It is important for us finally to uncover the whole truth about what went on in those institutions, the circumstances in which women were sent to them, the conditions in which they and their children had to live, the high mortality rates, the medical research that was carried out on children without their parents' consent and the forced separation of mothers and babies through adoption. It is essential for the commission of investigation to consider the role of all bodies - the orders that ran the homes, the State agencies that interacted with them, the Department of the Environment and the local authorities that funded them. We have to recall that these homes were set up at the instigation of the local authorities, which wanted people to be moved from the county homes into separate mother and baby institutions. The roles of all the players involved need to be investigated. We need to uncover the full truth.
I echo the Minister's closing remarks about the importance of justice finally being offered to those affected by this issue. This horrible and dark aspect of our past is part of the daily existence of the many people who went through these homes. The mothers who were forced into the homes and separated from their children have been living with that hurt since then. The children who have never had the opportunity to track down their parents are living with the agony of separation and the denial of basic aspects of their identity. It is important for the Government's response to these issues to be wide and comprehensive. It is not just about realising the truth; it is also about finally doing justice to all of those separated by adoption.
It is right that there has been a significant focus on illegal adoption in recent days. There has been a particular focus on cases of illegal birth registration and on the practices that were followed when children were born. The general practitioners, solicitors and others who falsified birth records thereby deprived children of their identity from the day of their birth. To this day, the State has refused to assist those whose rights were signed over by people who pretended they had been born to another family. I have been looking back on the replies given by Governments in the other House when the issue of illegal adoptions has been raised. Ministers have tended to say it is a private matter.
The State needs to do everything it can to assist these people. That is what finally needs to happen. The State should bring together all the records from the offices of general practitioners and solicitors. Nurse Doody's record book, which listed 1,000 babies and their birth families, was found by her grandson in the attic of a house ten years ago. I understand it is the only record of the truth of those babies and their circumstances, such as the details of their natural mothers. There are records like that all over the country. It is important for the Government to act now to seize all of that information, bring it together and make it available to families. It should also act to ensure all information relating to adoption - I refer to illegal birth registrations, for example - is centralised.
Reference is often made to illegal adoptions. I would widen it out in the way that has been argued by the Adoption Rights Alliance. It is not just about illegal birth registration, which may have been the most straightforward form of illegal adoption that took place in the past; it is also about the many cases of women being forced under duress to give up their babies and to sign consent forms. The Adoption Rights Alliance has examples of many cases of women who signed forms before the legal limit, as set out in legislation, had been reached. Some women were forced to sign forms within three or four days of giving birth. These forms were put in front of them when they were still in shock and did not know what was going on. In those circumstances, it is an absolute fallacy to say that there was anything that could come close to amounting to consent.
The former Prime Minister of Australia, Julia Gillard, recognised this fallacy when she apologised for illegal adoptions in that country:

We say sorry to you, the mothers who were denied knowledge of your rights, which meant you could not provide informed consent. You were given false assurances. You were forced to endure the coercion and brutality of practices that were unethical, dishonest and in many cases illegal.

Imelda Henry (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, on his appointment to the Cabinet. I am aware that he worked on children's issues in the past when he was in opposition. I am delighted that he has been appointed as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. I commend him on his decision to establish a full commission of investigation with full statutory powers. He acted promptly and swiftly when he set up a cross-departmental group involving eight Government Departments. Following a preliminary update from this group, the Cabinet agreed yesterday to establish a commission of investigation with statutory powers to investigate mother and baby homes. The commission will deal with issues of highest sensitivity, matters of life and death, the high mortality rate, the burial practices, the issues relating to adoption and the issue of clinical trials.
As the Minister said, this country has a history of tribunals that go on for years and cost millions of euro. He has assured us that this will be a focused investigation with clear terms of reference and realistically achievable goals. The sole focus here is on the mother and baby home investigation. A reasonable time frame has been set.

The Government's decision to establish a commission of investigation underlines the seriousness of our approach to these matters. As the Minister said, since coming into power, the Government has shown its willingness to confront and shine a light into the dark aspects of our recent social history. State and church were responsible for the mismanagement and neglect of these mothers and their babies. While it is difficult to understand how it was allowed to happen, it was due to the attitude of society at the time to the women and their babies. We cannot forget the fathers who were responsible for the women and their babies. Although they are seldom mentioned they, like all fathers, have responsibility.

Many issues are not clear as of yet, particularly regarding consent for adoption and experiments, and if consent was given it was done while women were stressed, emotional, under pressure from parents, church and society, and made to feel ashamed of their situation and their children. Some of the language used to describe these mothers was appalling. The term "fallen women" is upsetting and sad. I hope many women who had experiences in mother and baby homes will come forward and tell their stories so we can finally bring the harrowing facts into the open. Although it will be difficult for many of them, I hope they have the courage to do so.

We cannot deal with what happened and move forward until we return to those dark days, bring it all into the open and acknowledge that it was wrong and shameful and that we treated women, children and precious human life appallingly. While there has been much analysis of the cause of the problem, the root of it was the attitude of society and the Roman Catholic Church to women and their role in society. Although the attitude of the Roman Catholic Church has moved on a bit, it has not yet moved into the 21st century. Although women constitute over 50% of the world population, they still have no role to play in the Roman Catholic Church. If women had such a role, the church could move forward and renew itself. This is an issue of our dark past and I hope the investigation will give us the answers we need.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I warmly welcome the Minister to the House. Everyone in the Chamber will agree that the recent revelations are yet another deplorable stain on our collective conscience. In preparing for my statement, my personal shame as a member of the collective that turned a blind eye to the abuse and suffering of women and children, out of fear and deference to the powerful, is as acute as ever before. It is the same shame I felt reading each of the reports - Ferns, Ryan, Murphy and Cloyne - into the systematic abuse and exploitation of vulnerable children in State and church institutions in Ireland. It is the same shame I felt reading the harrowing testimony from survivors of the Magdalen laundries and symphysiotomy procedures performed by medical professionals in Irish hospitals.

I share the overwhelming sense of shame and compunction over the unthinkable fate suffered by our sisters, cousins, friends and daughters labelled "fallen women" by church and community for becoming pregnant out of marriage and sent to these homes for their sins and rehabilitation. The isolation, hardship and suffering to which these young women were subjected in the name of honour and respectability is almost unthinkable in contemporary Ireland. How many of these young women fell pregnant against their will, by way of rape, incest and familial abuse, and found themselves arbitrarily and extra-judicially detained in these homes? It is the worst injustice imaginable when the victim is punished. It reminds me of punishment by stoning for adultery under Sharia law for women who have been raped.

Due to the time limit, I will limit my main observations to the issue of adoption, including the legality of adoptions prior to the Adoption Act 1952. Although the national adoption contact preference register contains data on only a small number of adoptions, the 2011 Adoption Authority of Ireland audit of the records found 50 cases of illegal adoptions. Given that the vast majority of adoption records are held by the Health Service Executive, HSE, and Child and Family Agency, CFA, we have seen only the tip of the iceberg of illegal adoptions. The area of adoption legality is extremely complex and technical and the commission will need an expert on adoption law to deal with what is likely to be a huge body of work. The Mahon tribunal had two to three experts working together.

So many of the issues thrown up by the mother and baby homes are not just legacies of the past but prevailing issues today, from which an examination of the past can yield lessons for legislation and policy today. Earlier today, I met several survivor groups, and we must ensure any inquiry, and the process to establish it, will hear their voices and involve them. The latest revelations have once again brought to the fore the trauma and suffering of many of the survivors. We must ensure we care for the living. I welcome, so early in the Minister's new term of office, his speedy and committed response to establish a statutory commission of investigation. We are all waiting to find out the scope of the inquiry and which homes and what period will be included. Will the State take responsibility for collating all the records or will it do the same as in the report into the Magdalen laundries, namely, receive the records and then return them to the church-run institutions?

The inquiry must deal with many inter-related matters. The prevailing issues are adoption, the right to identity, lone parents, the role of women, poverty, social strata, and the rights of unmarried fathers, whose names are still not necessarily recorded on birth certificates. Will the investigation have the resources it needs and the appropriate expertise to deal with the myriad issues I have outlined? We must find a way to prioritise the truths from which there can be learning. We have recently seen the role social historians and archivists have played and can continue to play in investigative teams. Can we learn from the Murphy report experience? Should the inquiry find a way to do its work by sampling to find the appropriate balance between truth, expediency, bearing witness, and establishing and identifying causal and contributing factors, thereby maximising the scope to learn lessons?

Lest we forget, each and every one of these children had a name, and to ensure they get the memorial they deserve, their names must be listed in their honour. They are the children we promised, at the formation of the State, to cherish equally.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister and congratulate him on his elevation to the Cabinet. From his speech and how he delivered it, I know he has a lot of compassion and will deal with this compassionately. Many of us here are privileged to be parents, either by birth or adoption. I have no doubt we have all showered our children with love, affection, good education and the material things in life. Let us imagine an Ireland without televisions, mobile phones, iPads, iPods, computers and certainly without Google. Let us imagine an Ireland of naivety, ignorance of the ways of the world, social conservatism and devout Catholic ideals but, sadly, without compassion and lacking in Christian values, where a young girl could be turned out of her home to face the unknown.

Let us imagine the fear in that young woman - or rather, usually, young girl - who did not even know what was happening to her body. Let us imagine the terror, loneliness and isolation such a young girl endured, disowned by her family, shunned by the neighbours and an outcast from the community for having brought "shame on herself and her family". She faced the ordeal of giving birth not knowing what would happen to her or her unborn child. She was penniless, alone and totally dependent on those in charge of the mother and baby homes. This is the horrific situation in which young girls found themselves between the 1920s and 1960s in a country where these women felt, as the Taoiseach said, ashamed, suppressed and dominated. What happened to these girls once they walked, or were dragged, through the doors of these homes?

We all know of the dreadful and harrowing stories of the Magdalen laundries women, the residents of the Bethany Home and industrial institutions. If those walls could talk would they tell us what happened to the babies? Were their births recorded and were birth certificates ever issued? Were they baptised, are there records of baptismal certificates and were their deaths recorded on death certificates? Is there anything in this world to say these innocent babies ever existed? Is their only legacy a pile of bones laying discarded in an unmarked grave or, as suggested in media reports, in a septic tank?

What of the fathers of these babies? They were not cast out from their homes. They were not left to fend for themselves and they were not made take responsibility for their actions. They were allowed skulk away and pretend it had nothing to do with them. They were considered to be merely sowing their wild oats. They lived in a country where laws were made by men and ruled over by men to protect men. Thankfully that has changed and today's men are more responsible and are willing to lead the charge in obtaining the truth and justice.

I would use the word "shameful" to describe us as a nation and as a society that allowed this to happen. When we hear of mass graves in other countries we immediately react with horror. Here it is on our own doorstep. We owe it to these women and the innocent babies found in that mass grave to find out exactly what happened. There may be more such cases around the country, many babies who were the subject of forced adoptions and illegally registered, and we owe it to them all. We must discover what was endured by the women in Tuam and all over this country.

I welcome the establishment of a commission of investigation with statutory powers and the Minister's swift actions. The investigation must expose the injustice, the abuse and the appalling treatment of these women. Shame on us as a society and shame on all politicians who stood over the appalling treatment of women and children during those years. Shame on the organisations, both State and religious, into whose care these young women were placed - they let them down so badly. Most of all, shame on the men who got these women pregnant and then abandoned them.

I welcome the fact that all parties are willing to work together to see justice is done rather than make a political football out of sensitive and emotive matter.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim céad fáilte roimh an Aire. Ba mhaith liom mo ghlór a chur leis na glórtha atá anseo go dtí seo ar an ábhar fíor-thruamhéileach seo.
I would like to start by commending Catherine Corless, the researcher, and Teresa Killeen Kelly, the chairperson of the Tuam mother and babies committee, on bringing the recent revelations to light and working so hard.
There is an element of déjà vuabout this as we are again discussing an issue that, at its core, relates to the treatment of Irish women and children by religious orders and the State. Not so long ago the Taoiseach stood in the Dáil Chamber and apologised on behalf of the State to the women of the Magdalen laundries. Before that the Ryan report gave shocking revelations of what life was like for young men and women in the industrial schools and orphanages that marked the landscape of every city and town in Ireland. In lifting the veil on this horrific aspect of our past we are now faced with the prospect of a Pandora's box that is characterised by violence, terror, abuse, shattered lives and broken people. In this system of gulags death, both real and metaphorical, was the order of the day. We now know hundreds, if not thousands, of children died in these centres of detention otherwise known as mother and baby homes. We also know babies were wrenched from their mothers in a most coercive and manipulative manner. The mothers concerned were virtually powerless, rendered sinful and outcast by a society steeped in a cruel and conservative Catholicism. As has been mentioned, they were ostracised and condemned as fallen women.
Their punishment was cruel and terrifying. Shut away behind thick and high convent walls these women scrubbed and polished convent floors while heavily pregnant and did so until immediately before they were due to give birth. Once in labour they were refused access to pain relief. As if to remind them that in the eyes of the Irish church, State and society they were somehow not respectable and less than whole, they were denied stitches after childbirth. The barbaric theft of women from these vulnerable women and the cruel and inhuman way they were treated is a stark warning to us all of what happens when fear and conservatism rule the body politic and church and State collude. Designated outcasts by society and brutalised by terror, these women were cruelly estranged from an essential part of themselves. Forced to live sad and secret lives where, for them, their young babies never grew old, they experienced a form of social death.
Immediate action is now required in order to uncover the full truth. Foremost in our thoughts should be the surviving mothers, who endured what was effectively incarceration in the institutions, and also the surviving adopted children who wish to discover the truth about the identity of their parents, siblings and wider families.
One of the shocking aspects of mother and baby homes that requires answers is the use of children for medical experiments. Vaccination trials were carried out on 58 children in 1960 and 1961. Those children were from the mother and baby homes at Bessborough in County Cork, Castlepollard in County Westmeath, Mount Carmel Industrial School in Moate, County Westmeath, Dunboyne and Stamullen in County Meath and St. Patrick's on the Navan Road in Dublin.
That brings us to the question of why these crimes were perpetrated and why were they allowed to happen. There have been attempts to place the blame on wider Irish society dating back some time, and this has occurred again in recent days, because of the deeply conservative social attitudes that dominated in those decades. It should be acknowledged that the social attitudes of the times were disdainful of great numbers of people and cast them out of society. However, this can too easily be twisted into a view that since everyone was to blame, no one was to blame. In turn, this allows the powerful in Irish society to evade accountability and responsibility once again. The reality was that there were powerful social and economic forces. Powerful men of church and State ruled this society and ensured women, children, the poor and the marginalised were kept in their place, or what those same powerful men decided was their place.
Much has changed for the better but much has yet to change. The onus is now on the Government to act. I would urge the Government to include the Magdalen laundries, as a matter of course, in any commission of inquiry. I would also like to take this opportunity to raise the issue of direct provision and I know the Minister is aware of this. This issue must be discussed on another occasion because it must be addressed. The young women in mother and baby homes who were once so full of promise and life deserve justice. Their lives were shattered and the State and Irish society can no longer claim ignorance. It is time to act and to demolish the official wall of silence that the State itself played such an active part in constructing.

Hildegarde Naughton (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, for attending today in the House where this issue was first raised. In fairness to the Minister, on first becoming aware of this issue he has expressed a willingness to deal with it and I welcome the establishment of a statutory commission of inquiry. This is the proper course to take.

The treatment and neglect of children in mother and baby homes has been known and the subject of criticism for many years. Parliamentary debates, health board reports, newspaper articles and local knowledge on this topic goes back to the 1930s. Some of the parliamentary debates, both from the knowledge exposed and the language used, would make one's hair stand on end. We really did not care for these children at all. It both saddens and annoys me that we as a community and as a political and civil society will only agitate for action when a shocking episode such as the allegations in Tuam come to light. They then, belatedly, receive international media attention.

It is a truism that sweeping secrets under the carpet will only make them fester and become a scandal. While the comely maidens were dancing at the crossroads thousands of unmarried mothers were dancing into institutions and homes and their children were dancing towards early deaths. Nobody in this House can afford to be political on this issue. This shameful past is shared by all of us. All of us know a party member, a family member, a friend or a neighbour that has been complicit in this through act or omission.

This shameful social history was to a large degree directed by the church and wilfully followed by the political establishment. Sometimes the actions of the political establishment and citizens exceeded those of the church. We in these Houses of the Oireachtas are all too familiar with examples of important social policy being blocked, either directly or indirectly. This was done to the great detriment of our citizens. These actions were accepted by citizens, no matter how harsh the consequences. The mother and child scheme is an obvious example and its pious and unforgiving politics are still within living memory. When Brendan Corish introduced the unmarried mother allowance scheme in 1970 he was castigated for creating a licence for fornication by his fellow parliamentarians.

While we await the outcome of pending investigations into allegations relating to the Tuam case I will not comment further on specific matters. It is incumbent on us to reflect on the conditions endured by those in mother and baby homes. In general, it seems the mortality rate for what were called "illegitimate children" was far higher than the norm at the time. The rate of incarceration in mother and baby homes was even higher.

Some have postulated that in one home the mortality rate was as high as 50%. In any event, it is simply not true to say, as some have, that all children were malnourished at the time, given the relative rates of poverty, and that these children were no worse off than others. That is simply not true. The simple fact is that all the research done to date has illustrated that being born into one of these homes significantly shortened a child's lifespan.

The religious undertook a duty of care in regard to these children. They had a duty to protect and care for them. They acted, effectively, as agents of the State which also failed them. Church and State failed. We are told that the cause of death of some of those 796 children was malnutrition. How many Bon Secours nuns died of malnutrition in Tuam from 1925 to 1961? How many town councillors and national politicians, who complained about the cost of those incarcerated in the place, died of malnutrition?

An additional matter was raised in the repeated episode of the "Prime Time" programme on Monday last, namely, drugs trials conducted on people in such homes, orphanages or other State institutions without the consent of those involved and, seemingly, with the connivance of the State at the time. There seems to be much documentation in existence on the issue. I note the promise of the drugs companies to co-operate and I am very pleased that the matter will be investigated.

Third, and finally, there is the issue of alleged forced adoptions in America and elsewhere of our citizens. The option was suggested to adoptive parents who were already considered unsuitable by their respective authorities. It is good that the matter will be finally investigated.

Perhaps the Minister will consider a constructive suggestion. The inquiry seems to have three distinct elements as follows: the treatment in homes and the disposal of the bodies of the children involved; the issue of medical research and drug trials; and the issue of forced adoptions. Would he consider having three separate inquiries with each headed by a different individual with separate staff? To be frank, the numbers and nature of the allegations are too vast for any one inquiry team or head to consider in any meaningful way or timeframe. Perhaps it cannot be done but I ask the Minister to consider my suggestion if he has not already done so.

I cannot say that I look forward to the results of this inquiry because the findings may well be horrific. However, I thank the Minister for coming to the House and dealing with this matter in such a speedy manner.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Crown and he has two minutes.

John Crown (Independent)
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I shall speak briefly because I want to give one minute to Senator Healy Eames.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry but we cannot do that. We will just take the Senator himself and he has two minutes.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order-----

John Crown (Independent)
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I will yield my time to Senator Healy Eames.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I am very grateful to the Senator. This issue is so important that the time allocated should be extended.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Is that possible?

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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We must finish at 7.15 p.m. Therefore, we have only two minutes and the House has not given us any more time.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Minister has heard my request also, and so has the Acting Chairman. This issue has touched many people.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Excuse me, a Chathaoirligh. In so far as this issue refers to me, can I say I have absolutely no jurisdiction over the Standing Orders.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I would ask the Senator to be reasonable in the circumstances.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry but it is the order of the House. We must finish at 7.15 p.m. and the Minister has to reply.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Only having 45 minutes to debate an issue as deeply moving as this is inappropriate in Seanad Éireann.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, Senator.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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We must raise the matter on the Order of Business. Is the Minister willing to come back here for a debate?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Many of us have been deeply shocked by this issue. Everybody across the Houses has expressed shock. My entire family was born in the Grove Hospital in Tuam which was run by the Bon Secours nuns. I have wondered since this story broke whether we were born alongside some of these children who were condemned to the mother and baby homes. Subsequently, I went to boarding school in Tuam and I taught for some time in Tuam. What I am trying to get at here is that never in my living history did I know about this issue.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, Senator. We have called on Senator Crown to see if he wanted to speak but he indicated he did not and Senator O'Keeffe did not get to speak. Therefore, we must finish and I call on the Minister. Senators can raise the matter on the Order of Business tomorrow morning if they want to continue the debate.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is appalling for such an important issue in our social history and living history-----

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, I suggest that the debate be resumed because I am sure that a number of other Members of the Seanad would like to speak on this issue.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I am sure the Minister could make time available.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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We will raise it on the Order of Business in the morning.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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Certainly, that can be ordered by the House in the morning at 10.30 a.m. but it will be up to the Leader.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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It needs to be suggested this evening.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I support the suggestion.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I call on the Minister to speak and we will raise it in the morning.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is very important that we think carefully about the terms of reference. I also welcome and thank the Minister for the commission of investigation.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I call on the Minister and we can raise the matter in the morning.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I very much regret that there have been appeals made to me to extend the debate here. That is not part of my jurisdiction and I do not have any power over the Seanad.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I accept that.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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When I looked at the clock or screen at 5 p.m. this evening the Seanad was not in session. It is a bit unfair to point the finger at me and expect that I can deal with this issue-----

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I was not saying that.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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-----when the matter of time is entirely under the Seanad's Standing Orders.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I accept that.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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If the debate is to be adjourned now, I have no difficulty in adjourning my remarks until we have a further opportunity of dealing with the issue.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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That would be appreciated.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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That would be appreciated.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I suggest that Senators order their own affairs without appealing to me to come to their aid. I can be back here at 9 p.m. this evening.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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The order for today is that statements conclude at 7.15 p.m.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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Can I clarify something because I was the first person here to ask the Minister if we could stay? We did not blame him, by any manner or means. We know that it is not his duty to set the schedule for the House. However, we felt the time was too short and not everybody had an opportunity to contribute. We did not blame him or appeal to him. We just wanted to know if his time was tied up. If he was available to stay on we would have proposed an extension. Obviously he has another schedule but we did not blame him.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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It is the order of the House

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I agree with that point.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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We can do that business tomorrow morning.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Clearly, I am required to be in the Dáil to deal with a Private Members' motion.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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The Minister has offered to come back here at 9 p.m.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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For the record, I acknowledge the invitation of Senator Hildegarde Naughton to be here. She contacted me earlier in the week and asked me to set aside time. I told her I would and I did.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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That is the end of statements for the time being. I thank the Minister for being here.