Donate now

KildareStreet is supported only by donations from people like you.

This site has served over 1,820,000 people since the 2011 election with zero government or institutional funding.
Please make a monthly or one-off donation to support KildareStreet.com in the future.

Seanad debates

Wednesday, 16 April 2014

Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2014: Committee and Remaining Stages

 

SECTION 1 Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

12:25 pm

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I note our amendments have been ruled out of order because they are not relevant to the subject matter of the Bill. We wanted the amendments to be within the scope of the Bill which is why we proposed a change in the Title of the Bill to hold a plebiscite on whether an office of a directly-elected mayor with authority for the Dublin metropolitan area should be established. On that basis we oppose section 1.

Dublin has four mayors, none of whom has any real powers. The offices are rotated between the dominant political parties. I am probably one of the last of the Members of the Seanad to formally welcome the first citizen of Dublin, Lord Mayor Oisín Quinn. Cuirim fáilte roimh an ardmhéara.

The rationale for the office of a directly-elected mayor relates to the need for strong coherent local government and accountability for the Dublin metropolitan area. Such an office is critical to the lives and well-being of Dubliners and Ireland as a whole. There are currently four Dublin local authorities and a multiplicity of national and State agencies. The system of governance for this city is not sufficiently robust to make strong, clear and accountable decisions as required by a modern city region. In particular, not only do many members of the public not have a clear sense of who is responsible for many of the decisions that affect the way the city and county is run, many councillors are at a remove from these decisions, particularly in areas such as transport. Clear, strong, robust and accountable leadership is needed-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator's comments on the Title of the Bill-----

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am speaking on section 1. I just made a comment about the Title but I am speaking on section 1.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator's comments are ultra viresas that matter is not contained in the Bill.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to speak on section 1 and I am entitled to speak on section 1.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator must stick to the matter of the Bill and not introduce extraneous matters.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am speaking on the amendment of the Electoral Act 1992 and all other Acts related to this Bill.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will allow the Senator a small amount of latitude but I am ruling that he is ultra vires.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am referring to several Acts, including the Registration of Electors Act, the conduct of Dáil elections and several others. I do not wish to bore the House with a list but there are several Acts.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before we go down this road, this is a very specific Bill on a very specific issue and I will not allow speakers to debate the provisions of other Acts.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the spirit that this is a very swift, pragmatic and important Bill I refer to the case of Godsil v. the Attorney General. The citizens of this city require and need to be directly involved as to whether they should have a directly-elected mayor.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not within this legislation. The Senator is endeavouring to bring it within the legislation but-----

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am endeavouring to widen the scope of the Bill and I am trying to set out my argument under section 1.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator has made his point. The rule is quite clear and what he is saying is ultra vires-----

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How can I make my point if I have not put forward the full argument? The Minister needs to hear the whole argument.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator is going down a road I have already suggested he should not pursue because it is outside the scope of the Bill and outside the scope of section 1.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to make the argument that the scope of this Bill should be widened. We have both Committee Stage and Report Stage to deal with it.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have made the ruling and I have given the Senator some latitude. I have ruled that this is a very specific Bill and introducing the issue of the plebiscite is ultra viresto the Bill and to section 1 of the Bill. Therefore, I cannot allow a full debate on it.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it is a point of order.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope it is a point of order and I believe it is. I have raised this matter on another Bill. It seems to me to be very odd that a Bill is presented before this House with the view that it should be reviewed and changed but certain sections of it are automatically immune. I do not see why the Title of the Bill should be immune from scrutiny in this House or from amendment. The Chair's ruling is ultra viresto the power of this House. We have the power to change the Bill.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a point of order. Furthermore, there is no amendment on section 1.

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But we can speak about an amendment.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but I am not allowing the Senator to go all over the shop on it.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are required to speak on an amendment if we want to put in an amendment on Report Stage; if we are not allowed to speak on it at this stage then we cannot put it on Report Stage. We are going around and around.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator has gone beyond his point of order.

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With respect, section 1 deals with the amendment of the Electoral Act 1992 which is quite a wide-scoping Act dealing with referenda, European, Seanad and local elections. It is on this basis that my colleague, Senator Mac Conghail, wishes to speak on the amendment of the Electoral Act 1992. In my opinion he is speaking within the scope.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ruled on this point. This is a specific item which is set out clearly in this short, specific Bill. The 1992 Act is a very broad Bill. I am not allowing the Senator to debate that Bill in the broad sense because this new Bill is so specific on the matter in question.

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Section 1 of the Bill deals with amending that Act.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Amending it in a specific way.

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are denying people in Dublin and we are denying the Seanad.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In my Second Stage contribution I referred to the Local Government Reform Act among many other Acts. I have no issue with the pragmatic and swift response to the Godsil case and we should look at a pragmatic and swift response to the fact that the citizens of Dublin are being denied the right to have a direct say on whether-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are on section 1.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----they wish to have a directly-elected mayor. I would like to continue to make my argument and to hear the Minister's response.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Minister, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government; Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Lord Mayor to the House. I can understand the reason Senator Mac Conghail and others would wish to amend the Bill on a very important issue which the Government supports. Regrettably, the manner in which the forum came to its conclusion did not include a consensus from all four local authorities in the Dublin region. Local elected members are close to the people and understand the people better than anyone. They were given the opportunity to bring forward a consensus through this forum and failed to do so. They failed to get agreement from the four local authorities. I will not hold a plebiscite on 23 May 2014 but I will look at the situation immediately after the elections to see if the proposals which the local authorities did not agree to can be revised. The Government is very committed to the notion of a directly-elected mayor of Dublin but it is back to us to come up with an initiative because the democratically-elected people in the four local authorities were unable to reach a consensus.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister has outlined the situation.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for his courteous response. There is a sense that he is disappointed with the vote. I do not wish to single out one council over another but the combined vote in all four council areas is 98% to 19%, which is significant. I do not wish to put words in the Minister's mouth but there may be a legislative opportunity for the plebiscite to happen in the lifetime of this Government.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Minister, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government; Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am prepared to consider that.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister has been very fair in his response. He is on the Senator's side but this is not the appropriate time to raise the matter.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Minister, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government; Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, the Senator is on my side.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Either way it fits neatly together.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sure I will fit neatly as well; we can make it a threesome. I welcome section 1, as does everyone. I am very glad that tribute has been paid to Jillian Godsil who was a student of mine in Trinity. If anybody deserves a second chance and if anybody deserves a chance to run, this woman does. She is very brave and courageous and I wish her well. I am very glad that this is being put through quickly by means of a motion for early signature meaning that these people will be allowed to stand for election.

I thank the Minister for very clearly opening up the discussion on the question of a plebiscite by way of his reply to Senator Mac Conghail.

I would welcome a strong mayor in Dublin with real power, as is the case in London. At the moment, a plebiscite would be a slam dunk and a foregone conclusion. If the people were given the opportunity, there is no question they would go for it. How democratic is it? We are talking about the city, but Fingal, for example, is not part of the city. It is a rural area and they have special interests and special problems. They had a very good special programme of bringing business incentives into the area-----

12:35 pm

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Minister, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government; Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are Dublin people.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are and they are not. They are County Dublin people. If the Minister comes to my area of the north inner city and asks if those in Fingal are country people, he will be told they are.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Minister, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government; Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am often in it in the daytime.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did the Minister say he would only visit it in the daytime? My goodness.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Norris and the Minister should respect the Chair.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but the Chair was inactive at the time, and now that he has resumed his volcanic activity-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am very diligent.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would support a plebiscite, but only if the opportunity were given for secession by Fingal, because it has very special needs and I do not see why we must ram it through. Ninety-eight percent of people in Fingal voted against it; where is the democracy there? Why not let them develop organically in their own way as a small unit? It might be a template for allowing more local democracy, of which we see very little. Let the people of Dublin decide, but if the people of Fingal want to stay out of it, let them do so. They will probably do a hell of a lot better on their own than they would if they were meshed with Dublin, as their interests do not automatically coincide with the urban area of metropolitan Dublin.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to finish off-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On point of order, I would like to contribute to this important debate.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am speaking-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As it was ruled out of order, I am respecting the rules of the House.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are debating section 1.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know Senator Keane is anxious to help me-----

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not going to sit here like ducks while an important debate is taking place around us.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a point of order.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is either in order or out of order. I would like it to be debated.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like a duck-----

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator should allow me to chair the meeting.

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Taking all Stages of a Bill on one day presents a problem if Members table amendments, because we cannot respond. I accept the ruling on this but my concern is not so much about the councillors but that the citizens, residents and electorate of the metropolitan area have a direct say in how their city is run. Some may disagree with the idea of a directly elected mayor, but a plebiscite would resolve that point. On that basis, I will oppose section 1 on the basis that we have not had an opportunity to debate the important point, but I am supportive of the overall Bill.

Question put:

The Committee divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 9.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden; Níl, Senators Fiach Mac Conghail and Jillian van Turnhout.

Question declared carried.

Section 2 agreed to.

12:45 pm

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Cathaoirleach of Seanad; Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Amendments Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, in the names of Senators Fiach Mac Conghail, Jillian van Turnhout and Katherine Zappone have been ruled out of order.

Amendments Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, not moved.

Section 3 agreed to.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Cathaoirleach of Seanad; Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Amendment No. 6 in the names of Senators Fiach Mac Conghail, Jillian van Turnhout and Katherine Zappone has been ruled out of order.

Amendment No. 6 not moved.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Have all of those amendments been ruled out of order?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Cathaoirleach of Seanad; Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I suggest it is a waste of time printing them, if we are going to rule out a raft of them out of order. When they were trying to abolish the Seanad, 71 amendments were ruled out of order.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Cathaoirleach of Seanad; Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are printed for information purposes.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why waste the public's money in printing stuff that is not in order?

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Cathaoirleach of Seanad; Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are printed for information purposes.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Photo of Fiach MacConghailFiach MacConghail (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Government for introducing this pragmatic Bill. We are all in unison about its importance and the pragmatism in swiftly enacting such a Bill. We are proud to have been a part of it. We thank a citizen who moved the Oireachtas to introduce a Bill that will enhance the democratic right of a citizen to become a Member of this House or the European Parliament. I do not know her, but I commend Ms Jillian Godsil for her enlightened role in inadvertently forcing the Government's hand through the case she took. I assume it will now be struck out. She rightly argued against discrimination on socioeconomic grounds, particularly bankruptcy, and is to be congratulated. The Bill is being passed in her honour.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, who was here previously for bringing forward this legislation. The speed with which it has been enacted shows that the Government does listen, see where change is needed and promptly make changes. The Government can be noted for this. In my contribution I mentioned the changes made by the Minister and the Minister of State. Who said women do not matter in politics? Of course, they do. Ms Godsil's name has just been mentioned. I add my voice to Senator Fiach Mac Conghail's.

12:50 pm

Photo of Denis LandyDenis Landy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State for taking this issue and I greatly appreciate the Opposition's response to this legislation, both in the Lower and Upper Houses. As the Minister of State indicated in the opening statement, this is something which should have been done years ago. We can only do this when in government but it is important that the Opposition has supported the Bill. I support what Senator Mac Conghail was trying to do earlier and perhaps it could be the subject of further legislation. I acknowledge that the Minister of State is prepared to revisit the subject, and I hope there will be a resolution to the issue. It would represent an opportunity for the public to have a say in the matter in the not too distant future.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, in his brief visit to the House. Like other colleagues, I welcome the swift passing of this legislation. As the Minister of State and other colleagues have already stated, this legislation is long overdue and should have been completed many decades ago. The attitude to bankruptcy in this country is slowly changing and if somebody falls on hard times and must go down the road of bankruptcy, it should not prevent him or her going for election to this House, the Lower House or local authorities.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Senators on all sides for supporting the Bill. It is a good and brave step forward for democracy that anybody who wishes to stand can do so despite having a financial issue like bankruptcy. An existing public representative may become bankrupt and it is important that he or she can continue in the work as well, as the people should ultimately decide on their representation. This legislation is well executed.

Question put and agreed to.