Seanad debates

Wednesday, 18 December 2013

10:30 am

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) (Amendment) Bill 2013 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil] - Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 11.45 a.m. and to conclude no later than 1.30 p.m.; No. 2, Companies (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2013 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil] - Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 1.30 p.m. and to conclude no later than 2 p.m.; No. 3, Water Services (No. 2) Bill 2013 - Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stages, to be taken at 2 p.m. and to conclude no later than 4 p.m.; No. 4, Local Government Reform Bill 2013 - Committee Stage, to be taken at 4 p.m. and to adjourn no later than 5 p.m.; and No. 5, Protection of the Public Interest from Tobacco Lobbying Bill 2013 - Second Stage, to be taken at 6 p.m. and to conclude no later than 8 p.m.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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On Monday in this House I raised very serious allegations in regard to the culture, procedures and operation of the National Asset Management Agency. Later that day the agency issued a statement to the effect that it was aware of only one ongoing investigation into such practices. It has since transpired that there are two such investigations taking place. I put it to colleagues that this information would not have emerged if we had not raised it in the Seanad.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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As I said on Monday, I have been made aware of very serious allegations concerning the deliberate undervaluing of loans at pre-sale, with a view to turning over a profit for public relations and political reasons and conferring advantage to certain bidders. It is a very serious situation if taxpayers are to be on the hook for the sale of performing loans at a discounted rate to preferred bidders. In fact, it is so serious that it requires an independent investigation and a statement from the Minister for Justice and Equality or the Minister for Finance. I understand the Garda Commissioner has had this information since early December. If even part of these allegations is true, it will undermine the entire operation of NAMA.

I have come into possession of documentation which I will lodge with the Garda Síochána this afternoon so that it can be dealt with by the proper authorities. The following will give colleagues a flavour of this documentation, without mentioning any names:

These people from NAMA have lost the plot. They forgot about the legislation and when Fine Gael came into power they forgot about transparency and freedom of information, which they spouted before the election. Senior people in NAMA got it into their heads that they had to make a profit and they nearly drove me to suicide on valuations. They were hell bent on destroying the banks on valuations so that they could be shown in a good light later. There were perfectly good loans written down on the banks to keep the NAMA dream alive. I was the one they relied on to get massive low valuations. I destroyed people with those valuations.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I do. That is just a flavour of the allegations which, if true, go to the very top of NAMA. There are questions to be answered regarding the interaction between the Department of Finance, senior NAMA officials and international vulture funds and investors.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Senator put his question?

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I am proposing an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister for Finance come into the House today to make a statement on oversight of NAMA, with reference to the questions that have been raised through the freedom of information process regarding senior officials in his Department leaking private commercial information to preferred bidders who were selected by NAMA and the Department. I do not raise these matters in the House lightly. I have read the documentation and, as I said, intend to lodge it this afternoon with the Garda. I am asking that the Minister for Finance come into the House today and make a clear statement about oversight of NAMA and its interaction with the Department at senior levels.

Photo of Deirdre CluneDeirdre Clune (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader arrange a debate with the Minister for Finance in the new year on the mid-term economic review that was published yesterday? The report has been criticised by some for not being ambitious enough and by others for not being sufficiently cautious. The projections contained therein seem to me to be very realistic. The House should avail of an opportunity to discuss that document, together with the ESRI data that were published this morning. The ESRI is positive in its outlook, predicting that increased domestic demand and reducing unemployment will contribute to greater than expected growth. There is much food for thought in these reports.

A "Prime Time" report last night outlined how a charity that provides residential places for drug addicts subjected some of those individuals to serious abuses. It is completely unacceptable that the operations of such organisations should be entirely unregulated. That situation must be rectified.

Photo of Sean BarrettSean Barrett (Independent)
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I welcome the confirmation by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, of the appointment of Mr. John O'Connor as chairman of EirGrid. I attended the Oireachtas committee meeting at which Mr. O'Connor remarked that he himself would not like to live close to a pylon. I hope he brings that approach to the affairs of EirGrid. My correspondence in recent weeks certainly suggests that his is the majority view on this issue.

I second Senator Clune's proposal that the Minister for Finance come into the House in the new year to discuss the medium-term outlook. The Federal Reserve in the United States is holding a meeting today on tapering or the reduction of quantitative easing, which is essentially the banker and stockbroker dole. A potential consequence of that will be the end of five years of virtually zero interest rates. The Department of Finance must re-evaluate its forecasts and investment appraisals to take account of these changed circumstances.

Photo of Tony MulcahyTony Mulcahy (Fine Gael)
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I begin by suggesting to Senator O'Brien that he call to mind who set up NAMA.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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My concerns relate to its operations.

Photo of Tony MulcahyTony Mulcahy (Fine Gael)
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Nevertheless, I echo his concerns. A Member of the other House, Deputy Mick Wallace, has stated publicly that the people he was dealing with before the crisis are the same people he has dealt with since the crisis. I was very worried to hear that comment. I do not condone whatever the Deputy might have done, but it is disturbing to discover that the same people are sitting on the other side of the table. It seems to be a case of gamekeeper turned poacher. I have exactly the same concerns as Senator O'Brien in that regard.

I seek an update on the implementation plan the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, has put in place for the individualisation of funds in the disability sector. I ask the Leader to facilitate a debate on that issue early in the new year, with a full statement by the Minister of State as to how she proposes to roll out this project in the coming years. The idea here is that the money follows the client, with funding assigned to clients to select services according to their requirements. If we are ever to break up the current model of service provision in the intellectual disability sector, this is exactly the way to do it. The cost of the current system is simply too high, as I have outlined on several occasions.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by my colleague Senator O'Brien in respect of the startling revelations he has brought forward.

It is worthy of an urgent debate.

I also wish to pay tribute to the Garda Síochána for the tremendous work it does in keeping our citizens and homes safe each day and keeping the criminals off the street. Sometimes we take gardaí for granted and we seem to hone in on the perhaps 0.5% of people who might have caused a bad name to be given to the Garda. I was startled by a headline and story in the Irish Examinerthis morning. Yesterday, Garda intelligence foiled the springing of a dangerous criminal from the Circuit Court in Limerick. The plan was that six armed gunmen on motorbikes would storm the courthouse, which normally has two unarmed gardaí. Judge Moran was sitting. One can imagine the devastation that would have caused. The audacity, cheek and tenacity of the criminals who would do such a thing would put Al Capone in the ha'penny place.

10:40 am

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Well said.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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That is what our gardaí are dealing with. I am sure the Acting Leader, on behalf of the House, will convey our sincere gratitude to the Garda for what it has done this year and wish the force a successful Christmas. All over the country this year there have been examples of the success of the Garda in preventing crime and murders and keeping our homes safe. That is my prime point.

Second, I call again for an urgent debate on fishing quotas. In this regard, I move an amendment to the Order of Business, that the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Coveney, come to the House today, as a matter of urgency, to discuss the news that 300 jobs in our decimated fishing industry will be lost in the southern part of Ireland because of a reduction in quotas. There have been severe reductions in quotas for plaice, haddock and prawns. This is a serious issue in the south. The Minister tries to put forward a positive spin by pointing to a 25% increase in a certain quota, but that is a 25% increase on an extremely low base. It is appalling that we are losing through a reduction in the very valuable prawn quota, for example. The French have ten times our quota for fishing in our seas, but they are only using a small amount of it.

Successive Governments, including past Fianna Fáil Ministers, have neglected to act properly for fishermen in this country. It is a shame to see the French, Spanish, Dutch and other nationalities, who hardly know where Ireland is on the map, coming to our shores and taking away our valuable resource. I demand that the Minister come to the House today for an urgent discussion on the decimation and decline of our fishing industry.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is piracy on the high seas.

Photo of Michael ComiskeyMichael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the newly elected president of the IFA, Mr. Eddie Downey from Meath. I started my public life with him in 1997. I also extend my congratulations to the deputy president, Mr. Tim O'Leary from Cork. We look forward to working with them over the next four years. Many of the issues are out of the way but we look forward to the finalising of the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, arrangements and, hopefully, the announcement shortly of the Pillar 2 funding. Farming is facing exciting and challenging times in the future and there are great prospects as we move forward to implement the proposals in the 2020 plan.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I support Senator Darragh O'Brien. He did the Seanad and the nation a great service by raising the issue of the apparent corruption in some areas of NAMA. The Seanad should be given full credit for this. I noticed that throughout the media it disappeared and that it was suddenly credited to the Dáil, but it was Senator Darragh O'Brien and this House that really exposed it. The House owes the Senator a vote of commendation for this. Also, the issue in this House in terms of the legislation on that body was the series of Chinese walls, the privacy, the lack of freedom of information and the lack of openness and transparency throughout NAMA. From now on it should be far more accountable.

I was very disturbed to hear the reports about vegetables such as brussels sprouts, potatoes and so forth being sold for about 6 cent in the supermarkets. That is below-cost selling. I was probably the only Member of this House who opposed the removal of the groceries order, and it was for this reason. I knew that small Irish businesses would be driven out of existence by multinational conglomerates. I am sorry to inform the House that on Christmas Eve the oldest shop in Parnell Street, which is my newsagents and is almost a community hub, will close its doors for the last time. It is partly due to this practice. It is an absolute shame. We should be looking after our communities, particularly at this time. The blather of the Minister today about regulating this, that and the other is not enough. What is required is something to stop these big companies crucifying the small suppliers and putting them out of business if they do not play ball and become their single supplier.

I second Senator O'Donovan's amendment requiring the Minister to come to the House. I know it is unrealistic because the Minister is over in Brussels, probably counting the sprouts, but it is a very important matter. Senator O'Donovan has been leading on this. He is one of the most important people in either House to raise these issues. It is a type of European piracy, because we were too stupid to realise the resources we had. The Minister might not be in the country but as a protest against the betrayal of the Irish fishing industry and the loss of 300 jobs, I second the amendment and I hope Senator O'Donovan calls a vote.

Photo of Colm BurkeColm Burke (Fine Gael)
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If there are genuine issues and concerns in respect of NAMA, and it appears there are, the appropriate authority to investigate them is the Garda. Any information people receive should be conveyed to the Garda. It is important to bear in mind also that valuations carried out even six months ago are now out of date because the market has changed.

I received a telephone call in the last week regarding a property that was sold at a public auction. A large number of properties were being sold, but the property concerned was not on the catalogue and was not advertised, yet it was purchased at the public auction. That raised concerns. Certainly, the person who contacted me raised concerns as how a property could be sold at a public auction without it being on the auction catalogue. Perhaps there is a logical explanation, but it raises questions. If anything untoward is happening in respect of what are now State assets, there must be transparency and full disclosure. It is important that valuable information is not leaked to a small number of people who can gain financially from that. Anybody who has relevant information should not hesitate to contact the Garda and the Garda Commissioner and convey that information, so a thorough investigation can be conducted into the matter.

Photo of Trevor Ó ClochartaighTrevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Deirtear sa Ghaeilge, cuir síoda ar ghabhar agus is gabhar i gcónaí é. Sílim go bhfuair muid léiriú eile de sin inné leis an bplean eacnamaíoch a chuir an Rialtas seo amach, mar níl sa bplean eacnamaíoch ach píosaí tarraingthe le chéile ó ráitis éagsúla agus seoltaí éagsúla a déanadh le bliain anuas. I ndáiríre, tá sé scanallach gur chosain sé €70,000 ar an gcáiníocóir leis an PR pack sin a chur le chéile.

I echo the support voiced this morning for Mr. Eddie Downey, the new leader of the IFA. I wish him well in his new role.

Like Senator O'Donovan and Senator Norris, I have grave concerns about the deal that was done overnight on the fisheries quota. As has been said, the Irish fisheries industry has been decimated over a number of years. The EU has been very detrimental to the fishing industry in Ireland, which is the reason so many young people have left the industry. I was talking to fishermen this morning and they are totally frustrated by the deal that has been made. They believe it will be detrimental to them, as they have lost important quotas that they needed to keep. They are also very frustrated by the broader picture. They still see huge factory ships sailing off our coasts which are taking huge amounts of fish. There appears to be scant policing of them, while the authorities here are very strict on the Irish fleet.

As Senator O'Donovan indicated, fishermen here are frustrated when they see boats from other EU countries being allowed to catch much larger quotas of fish in Irish waters. Those involved are particularly worried about the proposals in respect of whitefish stocks and the lack of progress on a deal between the EU, Norway, the Faroe Islands and Iceland regarding quotas. Vessels from the latter countries are entering our waters and fishing them at will. I accept that the Minister, Deputy Coveney, is quite amenable to coming before the House but an urgent debate is required on this matter. The "Ho, ho, ho" was taken out of Christmas for most fishermen when they heard the details of the agreement that has been reached. It had been stated that, based on science, we would receive a much better deal. However, it appears we have been completely let down by science in this instance. It is very important we debate this issue as a matter of urgency.

10:50 am

Photo of John KellyJohn Kelly (Labour)
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Like previous speakers, I congratulate Mr. Eddie Downey on his fabulous achievement. I was delighted by the stance he took during his election campaign to the effect that he is opposed to both wind turbines and pylons. This proves that the majority of farmers do not support the various projects which are proposed and which will lead to the landscape being destroyed.

Photo of Sean BarrettSean Barrett (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of John KellyJohn Kelly (Labour)
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I support the call made earlier in the week by Senator Cullinane for a debate on poverty. When one comes to work each morning, one is struck by the number of people begging and each evening one is confronted by many individuals seeking money. In addition, every morning one can see many people lying in doorways. I have raised this matter in the Chamber on previous occasions. It is outrageous that people should be obliged to sleep rough. I have heard radio interviews in which people who are self-employed are claiming to be in poverty. During the Seanad election campaign in 2011, I campaigned on the basis that the self-employed should be catered for and should be eligible for jobseeker's benefit. The individuals I have heard speak on radio have indicated that they are self-employed, that their wives have no income and that they have absolutely nothing. These people are being refused social welfare. That should not be the case. Those to whom I refer are entitled to social welfare payments-----

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of John KellyJohn Kelly (Labour)
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-----but apparently they are not receiving them. When one takes everything I have just stated into account, it becomes clear that there is a need for a debate on this matter. The facts must be placed on the record and if it requires bringing the Minister for Social Protection before the House to explain the position to the people, so be it. The various parts of the social welfare system appear to be adopting different stances. A debate is required and I appeal to the Deputy Leader to facilitate one in the new year.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I was going to propose an amendment to the Order of Business but two have already been proposed in respect of very important issues and I do want to compromise the possibility of their being accepted. In such circumstances, will the Deputy Leader indicate whether time could be made available tomorrow, if not later today, for a debate on a particular matter? It seems that the HSE's national service plan, which seeks to take €619 million out of the health budget, was approved by the Minister for Health yesterday. I am glad that the mythical figure relating to the cull in respect of medical cards has been reduced from €113 million to €23 million. It is vital that we debate this matter, particularly as the number of services which are going to be cut is very worrying. I cannot help thinking that the delay in publishing the plan until now was specifically in order that we would not be in a position to engage in a debate on it before Christmas. The approach appears to have been that delaying publication would in some way make it go away. As far as I am concerned, it is not going to go away.

This matter must be debated. The level of savings being sought in respect of the area health is far too high. Many of the targets set by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, such as those envisaged in respect of the medical card budget, were completely unrealistic and picked out of the air. Far too blunt an instrument is being used with regard to the assessment of medical cards, particularly those of a discretionary nature. This morning I have been working on the case of a lady in her 30s who has cancer and whose medical card has been taken away. I do not understand how anyone with any level of compassion or understanding could remove such a person's medical card. We must begin to look at matters in a more compassionate and humane way. I may table an amendment to tomorrow's Order of Business in respect of this matter. I trust that the Deputy Leader will try to make some time available between now and the end of the week in order that the House might discuss the HSE's national service plan.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The one matter on which I can agree with Senator Darragh O'Brien is that he should go to the Garda with whatever information he has in his possession. We all have a duty under section 19 of the Criminal Justice Act 2011 to report any impropriety of which we might become aware. In so far as the Senator is aware of some allegation that has been made, it is proper that he is going to do as he intends. Those in the print media will sensationalise matters as best they can, within the parameters of the law, in order to sell newspapers. As politicians, however, we have a duty of care and the one thing we must studiously avoid is being seen to jump on bandwagons. Of course, we are often, and quite typically, accused of doing the latter. Allegations have been made but it should not be further alleged that there is something rotten or wrong with the culture and that this goes to the very top. We should not be impugning the integrity of the board, the chairman or the managing director of NAMA, which is a very important State agency.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien did not do that.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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No, he did not. However, reference was made to the culture that obtains. I am not being critical.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Paul Coghlan is inferring that he said that.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am merely sounding a warning to the effect that we need to be careful. We are aware that NAMA operates within the law on a competitive basis and that it obtains independent valuations. I accept that the market is changing and that, as a result, valuations also change. I am sure those in NAMA are conscious of these matters. NAMA only employs properly qualified people to deal with the assets for which it has responsibility. I urge more care, more caution and less haste.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Transparency and integrity.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Garda bureau of fraud investigation is dealing with the matter and it should be allowed to carry on with its work.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I did not know-----

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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With respect, the investigation has been going on for the past year or two.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is the second investigation. It was one investigation when we discussed the matter on Monday, now it is two.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Somebody gave the Senator information a couple of days ago. That is what happened.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Now it is two.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Bradford.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I ask Senator Bradford to forgive me for impinging on his time.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Senator Paul Coghlan should put his whip back in his pocket.

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Minority Whip is fully forgiven.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I like that touch.

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I am normally hesitant to support requests to the effect that Ministers be brought before the House at short notice. It is generally impractical for them to appear in the Seanad with a few hours notice. It is important, however, that between now and Friday afternoon - when the Seanad is to adjourn for the Christmas recess - a Minister should come before us and outline his or her response to the allegations made in the House in respect of NAMA. This is Ireland's first week as a so-called free economy in the aftermath of its exit from the bailout. Apparently, we are in a position to run our own affairs. If the Oireachtas is to ensure the country does not end up in another bailout in the future as a result of bad economics, bad governance or bad politics, it must guarantee that all activities - be they public or political in nature - are carried out in the most transparent and honest fashion possible. I know nothing about NAMA other than what I have read in the newspapers but it is not unfair to suggest that questions must be answered. Taxpayers will eventually foot all of the bills in and we must ensure their money is not wasted. Public reassurance is required. Creating the type of good governance and good politics this country requires to allow it to grow in the future would be best facilitated by ensuring the questions raised by Senator Darragh O'Brien and others, both here and elsewhere, are comprehensively answered. There must be no shred of doubt with regard to an organisation as large as NAMA. The taxpayer has footed the bill to date and will continue to do so in respect of any problems that arise. It would not be practical for the Minister for Finance to come before the House today.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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If I receive a commitment on this-----

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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However, I hope he will appear prior the House adjourning for the Christmas recess.

11:00 am

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I would also like to hear a debate on wind farms. Senator Sean Barrett referred to a comment by Mr. Eddie O'Connor that he would not like to live beside a wind farm. Mr. O'Connor added, however, that he would not mind living 500 m from a wind farm.

Photo of John KellyJohn Kelly (Labour)
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He was referring to pylons rather than wind farms.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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In fairness to Mr. O'Connor, his entire statement should be cited if consultations are taking place on wind farms or electricity pylons.

Last July, I raised the issue of a pilot training college in Waterford that entered the liquidation process. Students at the college are still out of pocket to the tune of more than €80,000 and some of them had to raise more money to continue their training elsewhere. The Irish Aviation Authority licensed the training college in question. The Joint Committee on Transport and Communications was to carry out a forensic examination of the liquidation. I do not know the reason this examination did not proceed.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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If the Senator submits the matter for debate on the Adjournment, I will accept it.

Photo of Caít KeaneCaít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I will do so. I am bringing to the attention of the House the lack of any action on this issue since the training college went into liquidation in July 2012. I would like to find out if the joint committee did a report on the issue.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The Health Service Executive national service plan has been published. While next year's cuts have been reduced slightly from €666 million to €619 million, we can safely state that the HSE and hospital managers will find it very difficult and highly challenging to implement them. I am astonished that the service plan makes provision for a reduction of €294 million in expenditure on primary health care given that the Minister of State with responsibility for primary health care stated in this Chamber only weeks ago that greater investment in primary health care is needed. She also stated that primary health care was the focus of the Government. One of the core and continuing election pledges of the parties in government was to make free general practitioner care available to all by the end of the next Government term, presuming this Government will be re-elected. How does this commitment sit with the decision to reduce expenditure on primary health care by €294 million?

The health service plan states that expenditure on health care has been reduced by €3.3 billion since 2008 and this figure is set to rise to €4 billion by the end of 2014. Under the plan, the number of whole-time equivalent posts in the health service will also fall by 2,600 next year, having been cut by 12,500 posts since 2007. How, in God's name, can hospitals and the health service continue to function and provide the services people need with almost 13,500 fewer staff and €4 billion less in funding? This is the reason wards and theatres are closing and hospitals are under pressure.

The HSE will find it very difficult to implement its national service plan. The proposed adjustment in expenditure on medical cards has been rolled back already, which is a welcome decision. Sinn Féin stated it was not possible to implement the proposed level of cuts in the medical cards system.

I seek a debate on the HSE national service plan at the earliest possible date. Senators signalled that the plan should not be published at the end of the session as Christmas approaches because it is one of the most important annual plans published by the Government. The Seanad and Dáil must have an opportunity to properly scrutinise each and every saving or cut that is proposed. I call for a debate on the service plan to be scheduled as soon as possible.

Photo of Lorraine HigginsLorraine Higgins (Labour)
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Given what has evolved in the past two days in respect of the National Asset Management Agency, I am surprised the Minister for Finance has not been brought into the House to explain what precisely is going on. We have to remember that-----

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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An amendment to the Order of Business has been proposed on this issue.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Higgins should support the amendment.

Photo of Lorraine HigginsLorraine Higgins (Labour)
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I wish to make a point. Earlier in the week, NAMA stated that if people had information, they should bring it to the attention of the Garda Síochána. It deliberately muddied the waters in the aftermath of contributions on the agency made by Senator Darragh O'Brien and me in the House. Less than 24 hours after the Senator and I had spoken, the agency reported individuals to the Garda Síochána. This begs the question as to why it sat on that information until political pressure was brought to bear. It is clear that NAMA not only misled Members but also misled the Minister for Finance through its initial inaction and subsequent action. An inquiry is needed into this matter. We must make the board of the National Asset Management Agency more accountable to the Houses of the Oireachtas and review the draconian powers available to the agency. The Minister for Finance must come into the House in the immediate future to restore some confidence in what is a State agency of which proper accountability is required. An urgent debate is needed on this matter.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate Mr. Eddie Downey on his election as president of the Irish Farmers' Association. Mr. Downey has proved himself to be a doughty fighter for the farmers of his area and nationally in his previous role as deputy president of the IFA. He will probably recall that one year ago today, he addressed a meeting I organised in his home parish of Slane with the Fianna Fáil Party spokesman on agriculture, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív. He put it up to the Deputy that day and I know he is strong enough to do the same to the Government and challenge politicians and other leaders on behalf of IFA members. I am sure Senators will join me in wishing him the best of luck in his duties in the years ahead.

Photo of Michael MullinsMichael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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On the National Asset Management Agency, I welcome the statement by Senator Darragh O'Brien that he will pass on the information in his possession to the Garda Síochána. To restore confidence in NAMA, it would be appropriate for the Committee of Public Accounts to call in the executives and board of directors of the agency and question them on their stewardship of the organisation.

I join Senator Byrne in congratulating Mr. Eddie Downey on his election as president of the Irish Farmers' Association. The IFA is a significant representative organisation of the farming community. I am sure Mr. Downey will follow in the footsteps of his illustrious predecessors and do an outstanding job for the agricultural community.

Like my colleague, Senator O'Donovan, I extend good wishes to the Garda Síochána. It is appropriate that Senators acknowledge the significant achievements the Garda has made in combating serious crime in the past 12 months. People in our communities are safer in their homes at night because of the outstanding work done by gardaí. It is regrettable that a small number of elected representatives in the other House appear to be constantly attempting to undermine the force. If some issues need to be cleared up, it is incumbent on the Garda Commissioner to do so as a matter of urgency. The House should give its unqualified support to the Garda Síochána, which works on behalf of citizens 365 days of the year.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I ask for three debates to be arranged in the early new year, preferably in January. The first debate I seek is on the Legal Services Bill. I am disappointed to learn that the Fine Gael Party is rowing back on its position on this Bill to keep the Labour Party happy. I also seek a debate on the proposal to reduce the age of consent from 17 years to 16 years and the potential effects any such change would have. The third debate I seek is on junior certificate reform as I wish to raise serious concerns about the introduction by the Minister of a school certificate which would reinforce inequality among schools.

I echo the concerns expressed across the Chamber about the National Asset Management Agency. In the interest of openness, transparency and truth, the absence of which brought the country to its knees, it would be wise of the Minister for Finance if he were to make a statement on the issue before the House rises for Christmas. I have been receiving e-mails for a long time about secret deals, hidden facts and a lack of accountability to the House on NAMA's write-downs for developers. Data protection is to some degree mitigating against the truth emerging. NAMA is a State asset management agency owned by us, the taxpayers, and we deserve to know what is going on. If secret or hidden deals are taking place and people in the agency are under pressure, that is wrong.

This House and the public deserve to know the truth. It would be wise if the Minister for Finance were to address these serious allegations this week.

11:10 am

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I agree that we need to be very careful in what we say about NAMA. Senator Darragh O'Brien has done the State some service.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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When things go wrong and are not done the way they should be done, the people deserve to know. Senator O'Brien has fulfilled his responsibilities as a Member of this House.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We do not know if it is new information.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Of course he would pass information on to the Garda. He would always do what is right.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Maith an fear.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I thank him in that regard.

In the week that is in it, I support Senator Kelly's call for a debate on poverty. In each of the past two years, I have spoken in the run-up to Christmas about a homeless gentleman I used to see on the steps opposite the front gate of Leinster House. I have not seen him there so far this year. I shudder to think where that poor man might be at this time. Homelessness is a big problem. Representatives of many charities have spoken about the challenges facing homeless people and highlighted the increase in the number of homeless people in Dublin. Regardless of the state of our economy, we have a responsibility to ensure we eliminate homelessness. As a country, we have the ability to do so. There should be no need for people to beg on the streets of Dublin or any other city or town in Ireland. I do not know how we will go about the elimination of homelessness, but there should be a discussion on it. This House should be challenging the Government, and Senators as citizens, to come up with better ways of doing business and better ways of eliminating homelessness. All of this feeds into the completely new approach to charity that is needed in this country. I believe donating to charity should be seen in the same way as paying tax. When we pay tax, we expect full accountability. When people donate to a charity box, they should also expect full accountability. At the end of the day, it is the citizen's money. Next year will pose challenges for this House. We should embrace those challenges on behalf of the Irish people and come up with solutions. If that involves organising public consultation processes, as have already successfully done on other issues, we can do a good year's work in 2014.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I join my colleagues in commending the leader of our group, Senator Darragh O'Brien, on highlighting the concerns that have been raised with him privately regarding the way NAMA conducts its business. While I appreciate Senator Coghlan's comment that these are mere allegations, it is unfortunate-----

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I remind the Senator that some people, including some politicians, have agendas.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has spoken already.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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The less he says, the better.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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While I appreciate Senator Coghlan's concerns, I emphasise that every Member of this House who comes into possession of information of major significance to this State has an obligation to put it on the record of the House and hand it on to the appropriate authorities.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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That is a sine qua non.

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think anybody should be condemned for doing that.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am condemning nobody. Senator O'Brien knows I have great respect for him.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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It is not like Senator Coghlan to be interrupting.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Santa might not come to him.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Can we have Senator Wilson without interruption?

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Acting Leader to ensure that when we come back in the new year, we will not be bullied by the Government into ramming through legislation in the manner that has been happening this week. I know I am pushing an open door with this request. It should be one of the main resolutions of Members on all sides of the House. The guillotining of legislation in the last week before the Christmas and summer breaks has been going on since I became a Member of this House. It was an even greater feature of the approach to legislating of the Government I represented in this House. It is unfortunate. There is a clear mandate from the people of Ireland for the existence of this House. If we are to exist in a meaningful way, we should be prepared to tell the Government when we are not finished with legislation that we want to take the time to debate it properly and amend it if necessary. It is not good enough that the deadline for submitting amendments should pass before the Second Stage debate starts, but that is what we have seen again this week. The Government wants us to get our amendments in before the deadline, even though it has no intention of looking at them, because it sees us as a rubber stamp. It is not fair on the Leader, the Cathaoirleach, the staff or, in particular, the Members of this House. It should stop. We should make a resolution to that effect when we come back.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I remind Members that the NAMA legislation was designed not to be open or transparent. People should remember that. The Minister for Finance does not work for the Garda Síochána or the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. The exclusive role of certain bodies that are in place is to deal with any wrongdoing that might occur.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It is a question of the separation of powers.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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This week marked the 20th anniversary of the Downing Street Declaration. I was in the car the other night listening to the presentation from Iveagh House. I have to say it was one of the better moments in public broadcasting. I listened to the former Prime Minister, John Major. Now that our nation and the United Kingdom are just about at the position of having normal relations for once and for all, I suggest it would be appropriate for this House to invite the former Prime Minister, John Major, to address Senators at the earliest possible opportunity in recognition of his role in the Downing Street Declaration.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to bring his suggestion to the Leader of the House so that it may be considered by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is an excellent suggestion.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator could write to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges separately.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Actually, I do not think I need to write to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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You do. There is a procedure to be followed in these circumstances. The Senator needs to write to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I am putting it on the record of the House that I think 2014 will present a perfect opportunity for the former British Prime Minister, John Major, to address this Chamber on his role and the role of others in this regard.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The request has to come to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien spoke about the further allegations that have been made regarding NAMA. I join others who have commended the Senator on raising this issue. This is an illustration of the importance of the Seanad as an appropriate forum for highlighting issues. Clearly, these are serious matters that fall within the remit of the Garda. Like others, I am glad to hear that Senator O'Brien will be lodging the documents he spoke about with the Garda this afternoon. That is indeed the appropriate course. The Senator also asked for the Order of Business to be amended to bring the Minister for Finance to the Chamber today. I cannot accede to that request because the Minister, Deputy Noonan, is in Brussels at an ECOFIN meeting.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Brian Hayes, could come to the Chamber instead.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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In any event, I am not sure it would be appropriate for the Minister to debate the matter with us. Senator Mullins, who was one of the many Senators to speak on this issue, sensibly suggested it would be more appropriate for the board of NAMA to be brought before the Committee of Public Accounts or the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform to be interrogated and to answer questions. That appears more appropriate to me. The Government has said that it takes the allegations and accusations about NAMA very seriously. As others have said, anyone who has evidence of impropriety is legally obliged under section 19 of the Criminal Justice Act 2011 to bring that to the immediate attention of the Garda Síochána. I was glad to hear Senator Darragh O'Brien saying that the Garda Commissioner has had the information in question since early December and that he will be supplying the extra information today. Of course it is important to point out that neither the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Minister for Finance, any Minister of State nor the Government itself may be involved in carrying out criminal investigations.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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Such investigations are solely matters for the Garda Síochána. Any person who has information that might be useful should make it available to the Garda. People have been critical of the NAMA legislation. I think that is fair. There are specific offences under the NAMA Act in relation to the inappropriate disclosure of confidential information.

11:20 am

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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This is just a clarification. The Deputy Leader should not forget that NAMA denied there was a second investigation until we raised it in the House.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has already spoken.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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Dealing specifically with the state of the investigations, I understand an investigation by An Garda Síochána into a complaint made by NAMA against a former employee some time ago is at an advanced stage. I know colleagues will be relieved and glad to hear the investigation by An Garda Síochána into that former employee is at an advanced stage so it would be inappropriate for anyone, including a Minister or Leader in the Seanad, to say anything further about an ongoing investigation. More recently, I understand that in August 2013, An Garda Síochána received a separate complaint from a firm of solicitors acting on behalf of a client relating to the alleged disclosure of information by NAMA and that the Garda has been awaiting receipt of further documentation from those solicitors and will, of course-----

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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With all due respect, that only came to light after it was raised in the House.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Bacik, without interruption.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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As I said, I appreciate that and have acknowledged the role played by the Senator and the Seanad, but the Garda will investigate fully any allegations of criminal activity. I am sure we will be glad to receive any further documentation the Senator may have.

Senator Clune raised the issue of the mid-term economic review and called for a debate on that in the new year. I would agree with that and think it would be very appropriate, particularly in light of the positive ESRI projections. Senator Clune also raised the issues highlighted in "Prime Time" last night on what appear to be abuses and inappropriate practices by a charity that provides residential places for recovering drug addicts. I saw the programme and I know many others will have seen it. It raised some very serious issues relating to the need for the regulation of charities and the charitable sector, for which many of us in this House have called. That would be a good debate to have in the new year.

Senator Barrett was looking for a debate with the Minister for Finance in the new year. Again, I will pass this on to the Leader.

Senator Mulcahy was looking for a debate with the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, equality and mental health on the disability sector, in particular on how to roll out the individualisation plan in the new year. Again, I will pass that on to the Leader.

Senator O'Donovan complimented the Garda on foiling the plan to spring an individual before the courts from a courthouse. We all join Senator O'Donovan in conveying our gratitude and appreciation to the Garda for that apparently very successful operation.

Senator O'Donovan proposed an amendment to the Order of Business to bring the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to the House today to speak about fishing quotas and the ongoing negotiation. I cannot accept that amendment. The Minister spoke on "Morning Ireland" this morning about the deal that has been done. He says that, overall, the agreement is positive,the quotas are higher than they were a few years ago, particularly in the vital area of prawns, there have been increases in the quotas for fish like monkfish and hake, and he does not accept claims that this will cost jobs. He accepts there are cuts to cod, whiting and haddock but suggests it is a good deal overall. I accept that others have pointed out there have been difficulties for the fishing industry in Ireland for many years because of EU quotas. I think we all accept that but the Minister has been very good about coming to this House to talk to us about agreements reached at EU level. I am sure he will have no difficulty coming to the House in the near future. I just cannot accept that amendment for today. I ask colleagues to look at the Order of Business for today, see the amount of legislation we have and note the change made by the Leader last night in recognition of points raised by Senator Wilson, as a result of which the Order of Business today has changed. I will come to that later. We have a very full legislative agenda today.

Senator Comiskey was looking for a debate on agriculture in terms of Pillar 2 funding and I will pass that on to the Leader. Senator Norris spoke about the reports today about the pricing of vegetables. I know the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine has spoken about this matter this morning. Senator Norris will be delighted to hear that the Minister has said new legislation will be introduced within weeks if not months to bind supermarkets to the terms of contracts they have signed with food producers. He said the legislation will protect primary producers to ensure the contracts they have signed are fully respected. Clearly, there is an aggressive price war that is a matter of concern, but there is a response to that. I know Senator Norris also spoke about the oldest shop in Parnell Street and I share his view on that. He also spoke about the fisheries quotas to which I have responded.

Senator Colm Burke spoke about NAMA and the concerns raised by many. I have dealt with that.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh congratulated Eddie Downey on his election as the new president of the IFA. I think all of us will share the Senator's sentiments. Others have also expressed their congratulations and support for Mr. Downey. Senator Ó Clochartaigh also spoke about the fisheries quotas. I think I have answered that. I will pass on to the Leader the fact that there have been a number of requests for a debate with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine in the near future and we will try to arrange that as soon as we can.

Senator Kelly congratulated Eddie Downey and spoke about the need for a debate on poverty. In particular, he raised a question about self-employed persons who should not be refused social welfare. There are perhaps two debates here. There is certainly a debate on poverty. I will pass that on to the Leader because I know others have been looking for it. The Senator and others called for a debate on homelessness. Perhaps a question needs to be asked about the regional differences in respect of social welfare entitlements, which might be raised as a matter on the Adjournment if there are specific cases where that has arisen.

Senator MacSharry called for a debate on the HSE health service plan. I will pass that on to the Leader. I know the Senator is not proposing an amendment today. I am sure we will have the opportunity to debate that in the new year, if not this week. There are two health Bills before us tomorrow and I know colleagues will be raising some issues with the Minister for Health then. We all welcome the adjusted reduction in savings from medical cards contained in the plan announced yesterday.

Senator Coghlan spoke about NAMA and the duty to report. Again, I think I have dealt with that. Senator Bradford also spoke about NAMA. I will pass that on to the Leader but there have been other suggestions about more appropriate places to raise the issues.

Senator Keane spoke about wind farms and the pilot training college in Waterford. The Cathaoirleach has suggested that this would be a good topic to raise on the Adjournment and I would agree with that.

Senator Cullinane spoke about the HSE service plan and primary health care. Again, I will pass on to the Leader the fact that there has been a request for a debate on that as early as possible.

Senator Higgins spoke about NAMA. I think I have responded to that. Senator Byrne congratulated Eddie Downey and we would all share in that. Senator Mullins spoke about NAMA. I have pointed out the useful comment that the Committee of Public Accounts or the Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform might invite in the executive board of NAMA to question it about all the matters that have been raised by Senator Darragh O'Brien and others. Senator Mullins also congratulated Eddie Downey and the Garda. Again, we share in that.

Senator Healy Eames was looking for three debates. One of them was on the Legal Services Regulation Bill. There has been no dropping back by Fine Gael to keep the Labour Party happy on amendments to the Bill and the Senator should not believe everything she reads in The Phoenix. I also read that article. The Minister for Justice and Equality has utterly refuted the claims made in the article.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Deputy Leader, without interruption.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I should say that the Oireachtas Select Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality will continue to deal with the Legal Services Regulation Bill in the new year. I know it will be before us. I imagine it will probably be February or March 2014.

We can certainly have a debate on the idea of a drop in the age of consent. I know the Government has confirmed that the general scheme of the criminal law (sexual offences) Bill will be published in January so we might have a debate on that. The Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality will be looking at the heads of that Bill. Senator Healy Eames also called for a debate on education reform. I am sure we can accede to that in the new year.

Senator Conway spoke about NAMA, complimented Senator Darragh O'Brien and supported Senator Kelly's call for a debate on poverty. Again, I think there are two debates for which Senators Conway and Kelly are looking for. One is on poverty, perhaps with the Minister for Social Protection, and the other is on homelessness, which should be a separate debate with the Minister of State with responsibility for housing and planning. I know the Minister of State has been developing a plan. I think Senator Conway is quite right. We need to challenge the Government on the plan to eliminate homelessness, particularly on its implementation. This is not the first Government that has sought to eliminate homelessness but it is a matter of grave concern to see how many are homeless - those who are visibly homeless but also those who are homeless on waiting lists. We need to have that debate in the new year.

Senator Wilson commended Senator Darragh O'Brien and asked for a new year's resolution to be adopted in this House. As the Senator said, he is pushing an open door. He is right in saying that successive Governments have been guilty of trying to ram through legislation at the end of the summer and Christmas terms in particular, and that it is not good legislating, as I said on the record of this House last night. We should all join in commending the Leader on listening to and taking on board what we all said last night and changing the Order of Business in the course of the debate last night in order that Report Stage of the Water Services (No. 2) Bill did not conclude last night but has been included on today's Order of Business. I remind colleagues that there are changes to the schedule in the Order of Business that I announced this morning. These changes are very positive in terms of giving us more time to debate legislation when it had originally been sought to push through this legislation much more quickly. Other colleagues will be interested to know we had a meeting on Seanad reform with the Taoiseach. These are very useful and positive developments.

Senator D'Arcy spoke about NAMA legislation. He made the point that the Garda Síochána investigates allegations rather than the Minister for Finance. Senator D'Arcy very helpfully suggested that John Major would be a very appropriate person to invite to speak to the House as a distinguished speaker, in particular as it is the twentieth anniversary of the Downing Street Declaration. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges considered the matter of distinguished speakers and agreed to consider a list of potential distinguished speakers at its first meeting in the new year. We will add John Major to that list. That was a very positive and good suggestion from Senator D'Arcy.

11:30 am

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Darragh O'Brien has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for Finance on the oversight of NAMA and the interaction of senior officials in his Department with NAMA and the leaking of confidential information to preferred bidders be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.

The Seanad divided by electronic means.

11:35 am

Photo of Diarmuid WilsonDiarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Under Standing Order 62(3)(b) I request that the division be taken again other than by electronic means.

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 20; Níl, 28.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Ivana Bacik and Paul Coghlan.

Amendment declared lost.

11:40 am

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Denis O'Donovan has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine on the decline and decimation of the fishing industry, due to the reduction in quotas, be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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In view of the fact that on Christmas morning the aristocrats in Ireland will be eating Irish prawn starters caught by French fishermen, I think I will have to put this to a vote.

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 29.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Ivana Bacik and Paul Coghlan.

Amendment declared lost.

Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

The Seanad divided: Tá, 29; Níl, 17.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ivana Bacik and Paul Coghlan; Níl, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson.

Question declared carried.