Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the new children's hospital, to be taken at 3.45 p.m. and conclude not later than 4.30 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed five minutes and the contribution of the Sinn Féin Member not to exceed two minutes, with the Minister to be called on to reply not later than 4.25 p.m.; and No. 2, statements on the economy, to be taken at 4.30 p.m. and conclude not later than 6 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed six minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed three minutes, with the Minister to be called on to reply not later than 5.50 p.m.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the passing of the children's rights referendum. We all have many lessons to learn from the referendum. The low turnout was, whether we like it, an indictment of the political system and how all of us in all parties and none - I will not apportion blame - worked towards the referendum. The result was not a resounding "Yes" but I still firmly believe the changes to be brought forward in the Constitution will be important to protect children. When the dust settles the House should examine and debate in a calm and clear way the advice the Attorney General gave the Government on the publication of the Government's booklet to ensure we do not make again the mistakes we made in this referendum. I believe the turnout was low for various reasons and I will not apportion blame in any way, shape or form. We must look back and wonder why only 32% of our people voted in the referendum. We must look with a critical cold eye at what we can do differently and how we can represent and present a referendum in future.

I wish to follow up on several issues which I have raised on a number of occasions. The Minister for Health will come to the House this afternoon, and I am sure our health spokesperson will also raise this matter with him. Where stand the cuts to home help with regard to the 950,000 hours which have been taken out of the system this year? A cut of 450,000 home help hours was signed off by the Minister in mid-October for a paltry ¤8 million saving. All of us receive letters, telephone calls and e-mails from families about home help hours being arbitrarily cut.

I asked Senator Bacik if she had raised the issue with the Minister for Health last week and she said that she had. I am sure Fine Gael Senators have also raised the issue with him. I have written to him as many of my colleagues in Fianna Fáil have done. Will the cuts stand or will the Government reverse what I am sure we all agree, if we leave politics at the door, are the most unfair and unjust cuts to people who badly need assistance and want to be cared for at home? The financial argument for the cuts simply does not stand up. The less care people receive in their homes will mean that more of them, mainly elderly people, will end up in hospitals. They do not want to be there. They do not want to be cared for in hospitals and we all know this.

Will the Government reverse the cut of 950,000 hours introduced this year? I remind Senators that, on page 38 of the programme for Government, Fine Gael and the Labour Party signed up to not only maintaining home help, carers' allowances and home care packages, but to increasing them. Savage cuts have been made in the sector that affect people throughout the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland. I believe the Minister will take the opportunity today to clarify once and for all whether he will proceed with the cuts and whether he will admit that a mistake has been made and decide to reverse these utterly unjust cuts.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I join in Senator Darragh O'Brien's welcome for the result of the children's rights referendum and agree that lessons must be learned. There is a concern for us as politicians and wider civil society that a large portion of civil society could support such a measure, yet there was a low turnout. I suspect that the last couple of days of the campaign brought about a change of heart on the part of some persons who would have voted for the referendum. I strongly agree that we need to reflect.

I also agree with the Senator about the cuts to the home care package. The House needs a wider debate on the budget and budgetary measures. Perhaps we could have a full session, in the same way that committees have done, where Members of all parties could express their full and informed thoughts on various aspects that are under consideration for the upcoming budget. I believe the House has something to say on the subject.

I welcome Ireland's appointment to the United Nations Human Rights Council. It is a great achievement for the country and is an endorsement of our history of human rights advocacy. I congratulate the Tánaiste, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, on the part he played in bringing about that appointment.

I also welcome the Tánaiste's comments on gay marriage and the need for a constitutional referendum in this regard. We have made progress in the recognition of non-formal couples in recent years. As the Tánaiste rightly pointed out, however, it is merely a halfway house and does not represent equality.

I note that eight Irish authors have been longlisted for the IMPAC awards. It is a great achievement for a country of this size that our mark on the world of literature is so strong. I hope the eight authors who have been longlisted will be shortlisted.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I congratulate the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, his Department, the permanent missions of Ireland to the United Nations in Geneva and New York, and everyone else involved in Ireland's successful bid to secure a seat on the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva. It will be an interesting three years and I look forward to Ireland's renewed focus on the implementation of the Human Rights Council's universal periodic review recommendations now that we have member status.

With very warm wishes I say "well done" to everyone involved in the successful passage of the referendum on children's rights, especially to the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald. This is a gratifying time for me personally and professionally.

I have campaigned for many years for this referendum and I anticipated the margin to be much more narrow as this is a difficult issue involving profound social change. Much comparison has been taking place in the media with previous referendums and I note this referendum pertained to social change. As this was a major difference from previous referendums, it is difficult to make comparisons. I believe this referendum will be transformative and the full extent of its impact is not yet known. A case will appear before the Supreme Court in ten or 20 years time, after which people will know that on Saturday, 10 November 2012, they made a difference. However, I also urge caution in dismissing the "No" vote. I spoke at many meetings throughout the country and some of that "No" vote reflected a real fear of the social services and this is something to which Members must listen. One cannot simply dismiss the "No" vote by suggesting they all were anti-government. People have had negative experiences, in the current period or previously as children or as family or friends. Consequently, the Leader should facilitate the appearance in the House of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs at the earliest opportunity to discuss in particular the report of the task force on the child and family support agency, which was published in July. Members must play a role in shaping that new agency and they should address the fears people have raised. In addition, they also could discuss the fifth report of the special rapporteuron child protection and the Ryan report implementation plan, on which a three-year progress report was published earlier today. I also ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to introduce the adoption Bill to this House first. This issue is intricate and some of the relevant concerns were raised ensuring the debate. This legislation will require timely and well thought out debate.

I ask the Leader to schedule a debate in a timely manner after the Supreme Court judgment is given on 11 December. As the date on which the Supreme Court will give its detailed judgment is known, Members should have a timely debate to discuss the full implications.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I also congratulate the Government on the passage of the children's rights referendum and acknowledge Senator van Turnhout's particular role. I also congratulate and wish well those on the different sides who brought the benefit of their life experience and expertise to sincere contributions on the debate. Unfortunately, I cannot congratulate the Government on the manner in which it treated taxpayers' money. The Government must have been in some kind of cocoon of unreality in which it deluded itself into thinking it could spend taxpayers' money in whatever way it wished.

I also was struck by the comments made this morning by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, on his hopes for a referendum on redefining marriage in effect because there also appears to be an air of unreality about that. One must be clear about a couple of points. The Tánaiste claims that gay marriage is a human right and while that might be what he thinks, it is not what the Universal Declaration on Human Rights says about marriage. It is not what the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights says about marriage and it is not what the European Convention on Human Rights states about marriage because each of the aforementioned human rights documents understands marriage to be the union of a man and a woman. Moreover, each of these documents is many times more important than is Deputy Eamon Gilmore's declaration on human rights.

That said, I am not afraid of a debate. Bring it on and let us have a full and open debate about this. One could call it the second children's rights referendum because central to that debate will be the right of a child to be brought up by two biological parents in a low-conflict marriage and that the State shall not do anything to lessen the preference for that situation in the laws that apply. I make this point with full regard of course to people's rights to protections of various kinds that already have been passed in the law, in however flawed a way notwithstanding.

David Norris (Independent)
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What about the rights of children of these arrangements? They have no rights at all.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mullen to continue, without interruption.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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However, the Tánaiste appears to have learned very little from the children's rights referendum debacle. The history of referendums dealing with social and ethical issues is interesting because there is a pattern. The political elite convince themselves of the necessity of liberalising stupid old traditional Ireland. Opinion polls appear to heavily support them in the early days and the media all are onside. Two months before the referendum polling, opinion polls are even more emphatic in suggesting the constitutional change will go through. Thereafter however, there is debate and the final result is either a terrible shock to the political and media elite or an almighty scare, such as was evident last weekend. If the Supreme Court has adjudged the Government of the day to have acted unconstitutionally, no matter, because even if the referendum had not succeeded the other day, we probably would have a second bite of the cherry in due course. The Government should brush up on its social history before running in blithely with naive claims about what constitutes authentic human rights, as it certainly is not a version supported by the international human rights instruments.

On the subject of children's rights and children's welfare, it is astonishing that although 12 Senators raised the issue of the illegal and dangerous advice being given by counselling clinics to women seeking abortion, the Minister has still not seen fit to come into this House to make a statement, or to go into the other House to which he is even more accountable under the Constitution. On five occasions, women were told to hide their abortions from their doctors. One woman was told twice that if abortion complications arose after her surgical abortion, she needed to tell medical staff in the hospital that she had a miscarriage. In the HSE service, the woman was told that in the case of any future pregnancies after abortion, she could tell her doctor that this was her first pregnancy. I am afraid that I, and I think other Senators, will not be able to let this go until the Minister faces up to his responsibilities and makes a statement about his concern on this issue. I will ask the Leader again what I asked him last week, namely, for the Minister to come to the House on the matter.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator Mullen's last point that the Minister owes this House an explanation on what is going in regard to the Irish Family Planning Association clinics, which are funded by the State, the health and pregnancy of pregnant mothers and the advice they are getting.

Congratulations are due to the public who voted children's rights into the Constitution. We have done something good for society and we can stand proud on that. We must await the Supreme Court decision, as others have said, but the Government faced a terrible dilemma in the past few days. The question arises as to why we need a Government booklet. Are we now saying the Referendum Commission's booklet would have been adequate? Perhaps that is the case but we must recognise the Government has a duty to inform and clarify. From the start, it was clear to everybody that the Government was recommending a "Yes" vote. That is something which needs to be teased out. I do not want to see ¤1 million thrown away if the Referendum Commission booklet will do. Let us have that debate in mid-December, as Senator van Turnhout said. It would be very welcome if the Leader put it on the agenda.

The public is seething about pensions to bankers in banks bailed out by the taxpayer. Given the fear about home help cuts, mortgage and household debt issues, the Government must find a way around this. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, to look at this because together we must act for the people? We should put a surtax on everyone in receipt of a pension above ¤100,000 or we must have preconditions to bailout money. Anyone who is getting a hand-out of that nature, which is taxpayers' money, should not be getting it free gratis and there should be conditions to prevent it being used for pensions for bankers who let us down.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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We should have a debate after 11 December when the decision of the Supreme Court is made known and we see exactly what went wrong. There is no question but that the Government made a hames of this referendum because the booklet sent was costly, unnecessary and biased and it caused so many people to stay away from the polls last Saturday. The reaction to it was unbelievable. People felt they were being misled by the document sent by the Government and, in the circumstances, voted "No" or stayed way. Fortunately, enough people went to the polls - roughly 33.5% - and voted "Yes". It is a vital amendment of the Constitution and it is has been a success from the point of view that it has passed.

The Government has learned lessons. One lesson it has learned is that in the next referendum it holds - there have been approximately 80 proposed amendments of the Constitution - it may be beaten but so be it. That is another day's work and we will debate that again.

I commend the country for getting a seat on the UN Human Rights Council, which is very worthwhile.

I commend the efforts of people in the Government like the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, as well as Bono, who secured it.

I resent the fact that the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs has stated that we are restoring our good name around the world. There is nothing to restore and our position regarding human rights is second to none as far as we are concerned. We won a seat on the UN Security Council on 1 January 2001, when Fianna Fáil was in power and Mr. Brian Cowen was Minister for Foreign Affairs. The Tánaiste has gone on television and radio to say that "our reputation is being restored." How can a reputation for human rights be restored when it has not been damaged?

John Whelan (Labour)
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With great difficulty.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Did we ask for the Senator's advice?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is a very important decision for the United Nations that Ireland has a seat on this body. I also reject the criticism of Trócaire by the chairman of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Charles Flanagan-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is way over time.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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He criticised the excellent work of Trócaire in the Middle East and its very honest approach-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is way over time.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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------to the intrusion of Israel into Palestinian lands.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Moloney.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I hope members of the Fine Gael Party will bring this up at the meeting this evening and tomorrow.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is way over time.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Is Senator Leyden leading for Fianna Fáil today?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I raise the issue of analysis of death by suicide figures, which indicate an alarmingly high rate of suicide in Kerry, Cork city and Offaly, at 50% above the national average. I also commend our colleague in the House, Senator John Gilroy, who has been travelling around the country, meeting interested parties and collating information on suicide. He is a rapporteur on suicide for the Oireachtas health committee and doing some great work.

It is a pity it has taken so long to fill the post of director of the National Office for Suicide Prevention following the resignation of Mr. Geoff Day. I call for the formation of a task force to probe the issue and determine why rates of suicide are so high in these areas. I know the answers are difficult to find and neither I nor other Members in the House have them. We should at least try to do something to determine those answers.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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As the Cathaoirleach was not here last week, he may be glad to hear for the first time-----

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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He will take up the Senator on her remarks last night.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I was standing up for the Leader last night.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator did it very well.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I thank the Senator very much. I have said that if we are to play and beat the banks at their own game, we must possibly take our business elsewhere. I suggest to the Seanad we start with the post office and credit unions. As a Senator, I cannot accept that the Government is unable to do anything about the pensions of the great, the good and the Gods. Why are we part of a Government that is unable to do anything? It seems to be a massive contradiction, as the purpose of a government is always to do the right thing and bring about the right type of action. There was plenty that could be done to the ordinary worker, such as the introduction of the universal social charge at the stroke of a pen. I suggest the Government should introduce the solidarity social conscience claw-back, SSCCB, or a moral duty. If we cannot do anything, we should not be part of the Government. Banks are what they are because they get what they want from people and use it as they wish. Are we to say that the Government should have the same privilege?

Senator John Whelan is entirely right in saying that if the cap fits, we should wear it. There are unctuous payments and handshakes for incompetence. Obscene payments, whatever the job, organisation or quarter, must be challenged, particularly when made outside the retirement age. I would like the Minister for Finance to come to the House to explain exactly how we will act, especially if we are to call ourselves part of the Government or Members of the Upper House.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Like others, I congratulate the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, on the magnificent success she has had with the recent referendum. The people, particularly the children of Ireland, will forever be in her debt.

We have talk of another referendum but there should be a moratorium on referenda for four years because referendum fatigue is setting in.

Will the Leader inquire from the Minister for Education and Skills whether he intends to urge Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, to speed up the grant application process for third level students? Students and their families are reaching the end of their tether on this issue, which is leading to great distress. Members of the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection met SUSI officials this morning and while I appreciate there was a large number of applications this year, with more than 65,000 first-time applications, and it takes a long time to get through them, of the 20,000 determined so far, more than 9,000 have been refused, which leads me to the conclusion that with the centralisation of the system everyone is trying to secure a grant. It is difficult but it is imperative that students receive their grants before Christmas. Will the Leader ask the Minister about this because, otherwise, students will have to leave the third level system?

David Norris (Independent)
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I add my voice to those welcoming the historic election of this country's representatives to the human rights council of the UN. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade urged this to every incoming delegation and perhaps that played some small role in this.

I also very much welcome the result of the referendum on children's rights and draw attention to the fact that this House played a significant role. Last Thursday, a large number of Members changed their arrangements to take part in an historic debate to give the first opportunity for the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to put the Government's position clearly before the public, which was important.

Both of these developments make it opportune for us to have a debate on human rights and what exactly they are. There are some in this House, such as my colleague, Senator Mullen, who feel that they are either static or can be rolled back. I take a different view. My opinion is that human rights are something that are capable of continual expansion as our understanding of the human personality grows. Within my lifetime, a referendum on children's rights was seen as impossible and regarded as outlandish. Children were supposed to be seen and not heard. Gay rights certainly were not as part of human rights and they certainly are now, whatever the technical definition that mean-minded people will seek to impose upon and to limit human rights. Human rights should be expanded as far as possible. Legislation is needed to flesh out the children's rights referendum. We need it to be resourced properly. At the time of the Roscommon incest case, we had the guardian ad litem programme which I was involved in through this House. It was not properly resourced, and, therefore, it did not operate properly.

Taking into account the business of human rights, what about the issue of suicide, which was so correctly and courageously raised on the other side of the House? Where is the national suicide prevention officer? Nothing has been done about this for the past year. The Government motion tabled about suicide does not mention the post; it just congratulates the Government here and there. I will table an amendment asking for this officer to be appointed. As a European and not just an Irishman, I am bitterly ashamed that we see today that in the wake of yet another suicide in Spain, this time of a prominent political figure, it has been acknowledged for the first time that Spanish banks have put 400,000 people out of their homes. Where are the human rights in this when people on a mass scale all over Europe are being ejected from their homes while in this country, where we fought for centuries against eviction, we are having evictions? Let us have a stop to this and let us confront the banks-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

David Norris (Independent)
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Let us confront the banks.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

David Norris (Independent)
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I seek a debate on human rights and would like this included in it. As the IRA said in the old days, "We have not gone away." The money has not gone away either. It has gone into the pockets of billionaires in America and Europe and it should be taken back from them to rehouse the people who have been evicted.

John Kelly (Labour)
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I support my colleague, Senator Jim D'Arcy, with regard to the delays in processing third level grants. I can only describe it as scandalous that, at this stage, between 25% and 28% of the grants have been approved. What is annoying is that Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, is blaming the applicants, suggesting they did not dot the i's and cross the t's. As a result, SUSI kicks the can down the road and sends the applications to an appeals process when applicants do the smallest thing wrong. The appeals process works on the basis that the file will be parked for one month before someone looks at it. That is wrong and we seem to have learned nothing about centralising anything. We should have learned from the centralisation of medical card applications at the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, that it does not work. We have proved that centralising third level grants does not work. I agree with Senator Jim D'Arcy that students are being deprived of services in colleges. Some of them are considering leaving college because the grants have not been approved. This morning I listened to the representative of SUSI clapping herself on the back and saying SUSI is doing a great job, with only 28% of students having received approval for grants as we approach Christmas. The Minister for Education and Skills needs to step in and set a deadline for when all grants will be approved. I ask the Leader to progress that matter.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom iar-úair teachtarach a thuairt go dtí an seanad inniú. Bhí mé ag criunniú poibli i nGaillaimh leis na draonn a bhíonn sa phlé le cursaí pobal agus cursaí deonach. At a public meeting in Galway last night, we were asked to draw to people's attention that everything is not hunky-dory in Galway, even though it has a great reputation for festivals, celebrations, the arts and culture. A budget submission entitled "Protect Communities-Protect Galway", about the community and voluntary sector sinking under the cuts, outlines the difficulties the sector faces. I would welcome any Senator reading the submission in the run-up to the budget. Representatives of all areas, from the disability sector, older people and the LGBT community, said they are under immense pressure and want Senators and the Government to take on board their concerns.

We might be able to do so by examining the regime of oil and gas licensing in the State following the wonderful find of oil off the coast of Ireland. On a number of occasions, I have called for the Minister to come to the Chamber and give us his thoughts on the proposal by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources on the licensing regime. By international standards, the regime is very favourable to oil companies. Although the Minister told us finding oil off the coast of Ireland was like looking for a needle in a haystack, we have had two big finds over the past couple of months. It is more important than ever that we discuss the licensing regime and see what tax revenues we can get from the resources and how the moneys can be used to offset problems in the State.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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I support the call for grants to be issued to students more quickly. The delay in processing grant applications beggars belief. Thousands of students throughout the country have been waiting for so long that such delays are unacceptable. I listened to the SUSI spokesperson say this morning that 20,350 applications have been approved but only 3,010 students, 5% of those who applied, have been paid. Students and families are encountering hardship.

We have had delays in the past - we have had 32 concerns dealing with applications prior to this. Surely before issuing or accepting a tender from a single VEC all aspects should have been thoroughly covered to establish what could and could not be done. The VEC has now outsourced this to a private company. Was it involved in the tendering process? Did it envisage the number of applications? It is unacceptable that students waiting for their applications to be processed telephoned only to find that the application had not been received and they were asked to submit a second one.

A Senator:

The same thing happened with medical card applications.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Where am I going as a Senator?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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I want the Minister to come to the House to tell me if this is a sign of things to come for many years ahead. We appear to be going backwards.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator MacSharry.

David Norris (Independent)
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Excuse me, a Chathaoirligh, I wish to raise a point of order, which is of significance to all Members of this House. I submitted an amendment to No. 15, the motion on suicide. My office was informed that it could not be accepted because it had missed the deadline because it had to go to the Cabinet. Since when do Members' individual amendments to Government motions have to go to the Cabinet? I do not seek or request or want the permission of the Cabinet to put a resolution before this House or to amend the Government's business. That is my right attaching to my position as an elected Member of this House. It does not need to go to the Cabinet.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Norris-----

David Norris (Independent)
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I resist that and would like a ruling from you on this, a Chathaoirligh.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I have ruled on it. The Senator's notice should have been submitted by 11 a.m. yesterday and it was late.

David Norris (Independent)
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I wish to ask whether this was because it was a Cabinet matter.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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It was late.

David Norris (Independent)
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I find that very difficult to believe.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I join others in expressing grave concern at the incompetence of SUSI and whatever officials are involved at organising this process. The older analogue version organised on a regional basis was much more effective. We were all given an undertaking last year that it would be much quicker this year and that it was in students' interests. We now have anecdotal evidence that students are packing in courses as a result of not being able to secure the necessary finance to go on. I join other Senators in expressing dismay at the attitude of SUSI and the witnesses who appeared before the committee this morning. They outlined how they were doing their best. With an appeals mechanism now open to people, how many months will it take for appeals to be processed? Appeals in the case of, for example, carer's allowance and farmers' payments, can take nine months to a year. Is it the intention of SUSI and the Government that if my student grant is declined, provided I can get money from banks - which apparently have no money to lend and only have money to give for pensions and so on and will not give anything to students - I will not be able to continue with my education? If, somehow, the money is to come out of thin air while my appeal is to be adjudicated on I might find myself in second or third year of studies. There are many reasons for failure but there are no excuses. Effectively the Minister and whichever of his colleagues can best assist with this will need to manage this personally. He needs to make a statement on when funding will be made available and how quickly appeals will be heard. He needs to ensure this process is completed expeditiously because it has been an unmitigated disaster, as was seen from the contributions at today's committee meeting.

I seek a debate - this is close to the Leader's heart - in advance of the Minister's announcement of the hospital groupings nationally. There is a suggestion that the Leader's local hospital, Waterford Regional Hospital, will be linked to Dublin and I do not know how the hospitals in the north west will be linked. I have serious concerns as to the criteria being used.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is way over time.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that but I am conscious that others were afforded-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Higgins.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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If the Cathaoirleach would not mind, I will not be a moment.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We have a rule that Senators may raise only one issue.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that but others were afforded these opportunities. This is an issue close to the Leader's heart. The criteria being used to match these hospitals have more to do with saving money and medical politics than preserving what are the best pathways for outcomes for patients. It is very important that we have a debate in this regard in advance of the Minister's announcement of the groupings.

Lorraine Higgins (Labour)
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I call on the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to come to the House to discuss an issue relating to the single payment scheme application form and its associated terms and conditions. There appears to be a degree of ambiguity in the application of the law referred to in the form. This ambiguity relates to farm inspections. Page 22 of the form states that in submitting a single payment scheme application applicants agree to permit officials or agents of the Department to carry out on-farm inspections with or without prior notice at any reasonable time. This gives the impression to farmers that inspectors can carry out inspections at any time without giving notice to the farmer. However, we all know departmental officials must abide by requisite time periods and notice periods. For example, 48 hours notice must be given for inspections to be carried out on cattle and sheep tagging and inspections on land eligibility require up to 14 days notice. I have raised the issue of the inspection regime in Ireland previously and I have highlighted the fact that the law is being flouted by some, but I stress not all departmental officials.

Understandably, there is a huge element of fear throughout the community. Often farmers are afraid to stand up for their rights for fear of detrimental action being taken against them. It is unacceptable to have such a reign of fear over the farming community, and for the State to collude in it by allowing this ambiguity on the single payment scheme form. In the interests of doing what is right and informing farmers of their rights, it is imperative we clarify the position and have no grey area. We owe farmers a duty of care to enforce the law of the land and any EU laws and regulations in a fair, reasonable and unambiguous manner. To achieve this I call on the Minister to clarify the position and accordingly change the wording on page 22 of the form to reflect the law as it applies to each of us.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Like other Senators, I add my voice to welcoming the outcome of the children's rights referendum. The outcome was much closer than I thought it would be and there are a number of reasons for this. We need to interpret the results, including the reasons so many people voted "No" and ensure their concerns and issues are addressed. Somebody mentioned a lack of trust in social workers. What also came across was a lack of trust in the Government. This was well defined by the Tánaiste today when he spoke about redefining marriage. This is one of the concerns which affected people who voted "No". They questioned whether the Government was genuine in its approach to protecting children. A plethora of international reports and research and analysis conducted in this country clearly show the best interests of the family lie within the married family. The Minister acknowledged the importance of a father and a mother both playing a role in the development and rearing of children when we debated the issue. I call on her to return to the House soon to debate the issue again.

Concerns were also raised about the assurances of the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, to Deputy Mick Wallace that he would introduce abortion based on the X case, which would be very liberal. This concerns many people. I have asked in the House previously whether the children's rights referendum was about some children or all children. We need to focus on these issues.

With regard to the ¤1.1 million misappropriated by the Government in spending on the referendum, I will not criticise Ministers of Fine Gael or the Labour Party for campaigning strongly, but like other parties, they should fund it themselves. I call on the Minister to come to the House to give us an assurance that the ¤1.1 million will be refunded to the Exchequer.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil would have an awful lot to refund.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We funded the "Yes" campaign ourselves.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It resonates with the ¤1.1 billion misappropriated-----

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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What about all of the money that was misappropriated when The Senator's party was in government?

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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----with the knowledge and acquiescence of the officials in the Department of Finance and put into a pension fund. The moneys could have been used to assist distressed mortgagees. That would have been a much better way to use the money.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the result of the referendum. I thank the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs for introducing it after 20 years of debate and a number of reports, including by the Oireachtas. I also pay tribute to Senator van Turnhout. She has been involved in the area for a long number of years and has made a great contribution to moving the campaign forward. I also thank every Member for participating in the campaign.

It is important to note that the people who voted "No" had genuine concerns. In my area of Cork North-Central one box of ballot papers showed that 90 people voted "No" and 12 people voted "Yes". People have genuine concerns about dealing with the social services and we need to deal with the issue. Social services provide the best service they can within their remit and we must send out a positive message about that work. I shall touch on the issue that relates to the Supreme Court.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It is irrelevant.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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Let us remember that the High Court approved the Government's decision on the challenge made. The High Court favoured the Government in that decision but the Supreme Court made a different decision.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, the Senator has brought the Supreme Court into disrepute. He has questioned the Supreme Court's decision.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order and I ask the Senator to resume his seat.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is. Senator Colm Burke referred to the separation of powers.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has said nothing about the Supreme Court yet.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is stating the obvious.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Colm Burke has only mentioned the High Court.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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He mentioned the Supreme Court.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The Supreme Court is the highest court in the land and he discussed it.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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If the Senator does not want to hear the truth, then that is fine.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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My question relates to future referenda. Under the Constitution there is a mechanism that when a Bill is passed by the Oireachtas, the President has a right to refer it to the Supreme Court to be tested. The last time that happened was for the nursing homes Bill. I want to make a similar proposal for future referenda. Before a referendum is held I want the Government to refer documentation to be used for a referendum to the Supreme Court for adjudication. That would mean there would be no outstanding issues to be dealt with and would prevent what happened on this occasion. The same mechanism is in place for legislation and there is no reason we cannot do the same for a referendum.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the comments made, particularly by Members on the other side of the House, on the bungling incompetence by Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI. Senator Whelan's contribution was particularly good and I agree with him. Many Senators could not wait to get out the door to criticise local authorities and VECs on what they deemed to be the incompetent handling of student grants over the years. The proof has been laid bare. Where is the incompetence now? The buck stops with the Minister and he should come here to answer my query.

Members will also be aware that in the past few days there have been a series of parliamentary investigations into the payment or non-payment of tax by multinationals in Britain. The matter is of particular importance to this country because some of the companies seem to operate successfully here yet pay very little tax. Amazon, Starbucks and Google have been the subject of parliamentary investigations in the UK primarily because they have paid no tax. Corporation tax is a sacred cow and one never hears it being raised by politicians in either House. The defence used is that they create a large number of jobs in this beleaguered economy and contribute tax domestically due to their large workforces. I applaud that but I do not want my remarks to be misinterpreted. Storm clouds are gathering in Europe while the Government attempts to get a modus vivendi from its European partners in order to reduce an unsustainable bank debt. In the past few weeks during discussions with the Minister for Finance, Ireland's corporation tax has been raised again. That pressure will continue. There has been a deafening silence, not only from these Houses, but by the Irish media on the question that was asked by Deputy Boyd Barrett which revealed that the multinationals do not pay 12.5% in corporation tax.

They are paying as little as 4% or 5% tax. Were I asked the question-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are stuck for time today.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The question I am putting to the Leader is that the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State should come to this House to provide some clarity, in light of the investigation that is going on at Parliament level and the discussions that are under way in Europe to try to get our European partners to reduce our unsustainable bank debt, as to exactly what is the reaction of the Government to the 4% or 5% tax that is being paid by multinationals.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is eating into the time of other Senators.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Were I asked the question as to whether I should take the money from those in receipt of home help or who are disabled-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is way over time.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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----- or should I take another couple of bob from multinationals, I know what the answer would be.

John Gilroy (Labour)
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Senator Rónán Mullen called for a debate on marriage equality in this Chamber this afternoon and while his call was reasonable, the words he used were not. Members should have a debate on this issue at the earliest possible opportunity because during such a debate, the intolerance at the heart of Senator Mullen's argument will be exposed. However, that is not the reason I speak today. I welcome the news this morning that Bank of Ireland has returned successfully to the markets with a bond sale of more than ¤1 billion. It secured three-year money at 3.2%, which is a full ten points lower than the level of interest we were being charged 12 months ago. This is a small but significant step and signals a returning of confidence to the market and the economy. Notwithstanding the presence of the Minister for Finance in the House today, the Leader might organise a debate about banking, banking debt and banking practices in Ireland. While the news from Bank of Ireland today is very welcome, I very much doubt whether it will do anything to reduce the level of arrogance of that same organisation, as evinced in the buildings of Leinster House in the past week.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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It would be helpful for Members to have a debate at an early stage on the recent referendum. When all the congratulations have evaporated, there will be much soul-searching and analysis of the conduct and outcome of that referendum. To change the Constitution at any time is a momentous occasion and it is a momentous decision for the citizens as well. The recent amendments had the support of each political party in the State, yet the bottom line is that 80% of those entitled to vote did not support the referendum. This means that only approximately 20% did so.

As for the Supreme Court decision, I am disappointed at the casual response to that decision. I always understood that as legislators, when a decision came forward, Members not only accepted it but did so magnanimously. While I do not refer to any speaker today, references to the High Court in that context are not correct. The bottom line is the Supreme Court made a unanimous decision.

The second point I find worrying - again I make no reference to anyone who spoke on the issue today because it has been on the public airwaves up to now - is the suggestion the Government should be allowed to spend money on a "Yes" vote. This is exceptionally worrying, because it misunderstands and misinterprets what sovereignty means when it comes to a change in the Constitution. In this case, it would have meant that one would have been spending ¤1.4 million on behalf of 20%, because one certainly could not state one was spending it on behalf of the 80% who did not support it. I hope that particular debate does not gather any weight. However, in a positive sense - I do not say this in a confrontational way - an early debate would be important. Very important messages, as distinct from the result, are emerging. If I may conclude on this point-----

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is out of time.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Many people have been saying in recent times that many more referendums should be held to give the people an opportunity to speak. In light of what happened in the last referendum, we now must find out why that has not been taken on board by the people.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I have no difficulty in supporting Senator Ó Murchú's call for a debate in the aftermath, when the dust settles, on the referendum.

I congratulate the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, on successfully steering through the referendum. It is the culmination of 20 years hard work on the part of many Members in all parties and all-party Oireachtas committees. I also acknowledge the work and support of Senator van Turnhout.

There are many lessons to be learned from the referendum. One of them is whether our methods of communication to the public are adequate or effective. I was surprised to hear the vox pop on radio yesterday and over the weekend in which many people indicated that they did not have a clue what the referendum was about. They decided to either vote "No" because they did not understand what it was about or they decided to stay away, and that was despite the fact two booklets were sent to every household. Either people had a lazy attitude to finding information or they were disinterested and used the excuse that they did not know what it was about; therefore, they did not bother to vote. We need to analyse all of those issues. I might be wrong, and Senator Ó Murchú might correct me if I am, but I think a previous Government spent money on the second Lisbon treaty referendum; therefore, there is a precedent for doing so. The McKenna judgment and all of those other issues need to be debated.

I have a final comment on the SUSI debacle, and there is famous song with the lyrics, "If you knew Susie like I know Susie." I was one of the Senators who warned that it was a bad idea to take the processing of those grant applications away from the local authorities and the VECs.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is out of order in mentioning SUSI.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I am disappointed the assurances we were given of a better system have not come to fruition.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I pay tribute to the 15,000 people from the south east who marched over the weekend in defence of Waterford Regional Hospital and services at the hospital. There were a number of meetings today between Oireachtas Members, consultants and clinical directors across the south east, the Minister for Health and the Secretary General at the Department of Health. It is very clear opposite views are being expressed by all parties. The Minister and the Secretary General said Waterford Regional Hospital will not be in any way downgraded and that tertiary services, such as cancer care, cardiology and trauma, will not be affected by changes which will, effectively, break up the region, yet people who work in the hospital and in other hospitals in the region, including a cardiologist in Wexford and consultants and others who work in Waterford Regional Hospital, are saying that is not true.

In that environment, I am sure the Leader would agree that the best thing to happen would be for the Higgins report to be published in order that we can all see exactly what is in it and make up our own minds about how all of this will play out for the patients of the south east. We all want to ensure that at the end of this process, we get the best structure for the people of the south east and not just Waterford. Given that opposite views are being expressed by people who work in those hospitals and by the Minister for Health and the Secretary General, it only adds weight to the view that the report should be published.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are way over time and five Senators have indicated that they wish to contribute. I will take Senators Jimmy Harte, Paul Coghlan, Martin Conway, Mary Moran and Eamonn Coghlan first tomorrow.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senators Darragh O'Brien and van Turnhout and many other Senators commented on the children's rights referendum. The result is a momentous one and it reflects many years of work on the part of the Oireachtas and others. What is clear is that the electorate has endorsed the proposition that children's rights and protections be expressly recognised in the Constitution. This is part of a wider change in the process being led by the Government which recognises the failures of the past and puts in place more robust child protection laws and services.

The Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill 2012 has been enacted and the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill 2012 will be brought before the House soon. The heads of a Children First Bill have been published and debated by the Oireachtas committee dealing with health matters. An amending adoption Bill has been published to inform referendum deliberations. In the coming week the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs will publish the child and family support agency Bill to provide for the establishment of a dedicated child welfare and protection agency early next year. That is what will happen in the future.

I agree with Members who have called for a debate on the Supreme Court judgment when it is published and I will have no problem in facilitating such a debate. There is no question that it is regrettable that only 32% of the electorate voted. People have spoken about Saturday voting and the jury is still out on the issue. When the Supreme Court judgment is published, I will facilitate a debate in the House on the matter.

The issue of home help has been raised for the past three weeks by Senator Drragh O'Brien and others. As I stated in the past three weeks, the Government is committed to supporting older people to live in dignity and independence in their own homes and communities for as long as possible. It has invested approximately ¤320 million in home help and home care packages this year. A review of individual needs is ongoing. I have spoken at length on the subject in recent weeks but the position has not changed. The process will be reviewed in the new year and it is the Government's position that people should be supported with dignity and independence in their own homes. That is the way to go.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Will the cuts be reversed?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That will be reflected in the budget for 2013. Senator Hayden spoke about budgetary debates, of which we have had a number of these on areas such as social welfare. There will be a debate on the economy this afternoon. The Senator and others complimented the Government on receiving a seat on the executive of the Human Rights Council in the United Nations, which should be welcomed by all.

I take Senator van Turnhout's point on the referendum and compliment her on the part she played during that campaign. I note her points on the periodic review.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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She was the only good turn-out on the occasion.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I have already addressed the point on the adoption Bill. Senator Mullen spoke about human rights and marriage equality, which is a debate for another day. With regard to the alleged information on family planning clinics, the Senator has mentioned that the matter is in the hands of the Garda.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Some of it.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Any malpractice in clinics must be investigated by the Garda, which is charged with investigating any such malpractice. As I stated last week,I have the utmost confidence in the Garda in the matter.

Senator Healy Eames spoke about banker pensions and there is no doubt that there is anger and resentment among the public and politicians about the matter. I am confident a way will be found in next month's budget to address the issue.

Senator Moloney spoke about the report on people dying by suicide, mentioning in particular those in the Cork, Kerry and Offaly areas. It makes for very hard reading. We have had many debates in the House on the subject and I am sure there will be similar debates in the future.

With regard to Senator O'Donnell's comments, we should await the budget on 5 December for a response by the Government on the issue of bankers' pay and pensions.

The Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will be in the House later and I am sure any question that needs to be asked of him can be asked during that debate.

I was disappointed by the number of Members who contributed last week when the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform attended the House. Some Members obviously tried to ruin it for others but there were not many in the Chamber for the debate which had been sought by between 15 and 20 Members in the past number of weeks. A total of 11 took part in the debate.

Senator Jim D'Arcy called for a moratorium on referenda for the next number of years. I am sure he will have almost the full support of Members for that proposition.

The issue of student grants was raised by Senator Jim D'Arcy and many other Senators. We all agree with the Minister for Education and Skills that the delays many students face in the processing of their applications are unacceptable. The Minister has requested that City of Dublin VEC which operates SUSI, the new single grant awarding authority, increase its staffing to deal with the backlog. As of yesterday afternoon, the position of 66,000 applications was as follows: 20,000 had been completed, awarded, provisionally awarded or refused; SUSI was awaiting documentation on almost 21,000 applications, for which 15,000 applicants had provided no documentation whatsoever; and 26,000 were awaiting processing. I agree with Members that this is too many but we should not rule out centralisation of this system. We had 66 local authorities and VECs and some of them were excellent at processing applications, while others were not as good and students would still be waiting if that system was still in place. Let us give the system a chance. I am as critical as anybody else of the centralisation of services when they do not work. This is not working as we want it to but let us give it a chance. Having one authority deal universally with grant applications is the way to go but I accept it must be done in a more professional and efficient manner, which is what the Minister is trying to ensure.

Senator Norris commented on human rights issues and the children's rights referendum. We owe a debt of gratitude to him for the debate we had last Thursday at short notice about the Supreme Court's decision on the referendum. It was an excellent debate which was a great advertisement for this House.

Both Senator Norris and Senator Moloney raised the issue of the national suicide prevention officer. The position has been filled and the person concerned will start in the coming weeks. That will be welcomed by all.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh raised the issue of the funding of community and voluntary bodies. We have had debates with various Ministers on the budgetary process and this matter can be raised in that context. With regard to oil, we still have not brought anything ashore. When we bring something ashore, we can begin to generate revenue at that stage.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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It will be too late. The licences should be put in place.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is a gas man for raising the issue.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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What about bringing gas in off the Mayo coast? Has the Senator forgotten about that? We will be waiting years with all his party's punters stopping gas coming ashore.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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The Government will be pumping out the profits.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Leader to continue, without interruption.

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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If Sinn Féin had anything to do with it, there would be nothing coming into the country at all.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senators MacSharry and Cullinane called for a debate on the hospital groupings report when it is published.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Before would be better.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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How can we have a debate on a report before it is published?

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I am sure views have been articulated to Members on how they should be formed.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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We cannot debate something that has not been published and put before us but I assure the House that when Professor Higgins's report is published, we will have a debate on it.

Senator Higgins raised the issue of inspections by officials of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister if she provides me with the details she outlined.

Senator Walsh referred to the rights of the family. They are clearly enshrined in the Constitution and will be protected by the Supreme Court.

Senator Mooney raised the issue of corporation tax. The Government has made its position clear on this issue for many years. That remains the position. The issue of companies or individuals not paying sufficient corporation tax could be raised with the Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform when he attends the House later.

Senator Gilroy commented on Bank of Ireland being back in the markets. This is encouraging but it is only a first step and we have a long way to go in that regard.

Senator Cullinane mentioned the march by 15,000 people in Waterford on Saturday last. I was among those who marched. We will have a debate on the hospital groupings as soon as the Higgins report is published.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader should have been on television.