Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Health Service Executive (Governance) Bill 2012 - Report Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 22, Private Members' business, motion No. 10, to be taken at 4.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 6.30 p.m.; No. 2, motion on tribunals of inquiry, to be taken at 6.30 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed three minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply no later than 6.55 p.m.; and No. 3, statements on social protection (resumed), to be taken at 7 p.m. and to conclude no later than 8 p.m., with the contributions of Members not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply to the debate no later than 7.45 p.m.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I will use two phrases in respect of No. 2, namely, "We told you so" and "Here we go again". This pertains to the Smithwick tribunal, where the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, came in like the new sheriff in town and cut short the tribunal. This is the second or perhaps the third time he has come back subsequently to lengthen the term of the tribunal to allow it to do its work independently. It is a shame that the Minister, Deputy Shatter, decided to put politics before finding the truth about the situation that obtained there-----

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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New information emerged.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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----- when he first came into office. However, he appears to have learned his lesson and appears to have copped on.

It has been more than six months since An Bord Pleanála refused planning permission for the children's hospital. An independent report was to be undertaken by the Government and subsequently by Mr. Dolphin. At the time, people were promised the report would be drawn up within one month. It is somewhat similar to the Slane bypass, in that when it was refused planning permission, people were told there would be a report within 90 days but nothing has happened. Members were told it would be a month and then, when the report was received in June, they were told a decision would be taken within weeks. In July, they were told the decision would be taken by October. When the capital programme was announced, there were told that this project - the flagship project for the capital programme - would be paid-----

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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If the previous Government had not picked the wrong site, there would not be a problem.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's party colleague, the present Minister for Health, agreed with the Mater Hospital site.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Who was Taoiseach at the time?

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The aforementioned Minister decided to go ahead with the Mater Hospital site. In July, Members were told this would be financed through the sale of the national lottery. Yesterday, one learned that not only was the Dolphin report extant but that apparently, there also was a Labour Party report. Subsequently, one learned that Mr. John Fitzgerald had been asked to review the sites in the findings of the Dolphin report. It is important that the Seanad and the Oireachtas finds out who commissioned Mr. Fitzgerald and for what purpose. Was it the Minister for Health or was it the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade? What are his assessment criteria?

He is a former county manager, but not a planning expert. Will his advice be in addition to the Dolphin report? Last night, a respected journalist stated on the news that the report could be reworded to fudge the issue and make it look as though whatever decision was made was independently recommended. Was Mr. Dolphin aware that his report might be subsumed by a further report by Mr. Fitzgerald?

What is the status of the national children's hospital, the position of the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, within the Government and the relationship between the Labour Party and Fine Gael on this important issue, the flagship project of the Government's capital programme? Given the number of questions still outstanding, I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to the effect that the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade attend the Seanad today to inform us of the hospital's status. There would be no point in asking the Minister for Health to attend. He seems to be out of the loop and the matter seems to be in the Tánaiste's hands. Is it constitutional or legal for the Tánaiste to take over the Minister for Health's functions and role? We should also consider that issue.

It is important that we get the information I am seeking. The children of Ireland deserve their hospital and the people deserve clarity concerning what is occurring.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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We are all frustrated that a further extension to the Smithwick tribunal has been sought, but I understand that there is new information and that justification-----

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The children will be grown before it is built.

John Gilroy (Labour)
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Senator Bacik is not discussing that issue.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bacik without interruption, please.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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-----will be provided for it. I will welcome the debate this evening.

On the Dolphin report, we are all agreed on the importance of the flagship children's hospital project going ahead. It did not do so under the last Government, but this Government is committed to proceeding with it. It is an important project and everyone will agree that we must get its location right. In response to yesterday's Order of Business, I stated that the report would be going to the Cabinet and a decision would be made shortly. I now understand that time to be within the next two to three weeks. The Government members are as one and there is no division between Fine Gael and the Labour Party on this issue. We are committed to the hospital going ahead. It should be co-located with a maternity hospital and adjacent to an acute hospital, but we need to explore the different options and choose the right one.

I welcome today's switch from analogue to digital. It occurred at 10 a.m. following a large information campaign. I anticipate that everything will go smoothly. I commend the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, on leading the well-run information campaign.

A couple of weeks ago, I asked for a debate on the purple flag initiative under which urban districts can apply for an award showing that they are safe and pleasant places in which to socialise in the evening. I wish to mention another initiative in the same sort of spirit. Dublin City Council is carrying out a major rebranding of Dublin in advance of the Gathering and the plans for 2013. As part of that work, the Little Museum of Dublin has launched a uniquely Dublin competition, namely, to get Dubliners to answer the question, "What is so unique about Dublin?" I am privileged to be taking part in this wonderful initiative and I urge colleagues, particularly those based in Dublin, to get involved. It is a great campaign. The Olympics were a major boost for London this year in terms of regenerating disadvantaged areas and increasing tourism. Something similar could happen to Dublin in 2013 if matters are handled correctly. I commend the city council and the Little Museum of Dublin on their initiatives.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not like to see conversations being held in the background. I will name those who continue if they do not respect the Senators speaking. Some people will be surprised when I mention their names later. I call Senator Hayden. It is an ongoing problem. Members should have respect.

David Norris (Independent)
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I am glad the Leas-Chathaoirleach is not naming Senator Hayden.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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No. I am calling her to contribute.

Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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I support the call from the Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, for a root-and-branch review of the Department of Social Protection's appeals procedures. According to FLAC's survey, not only are there lengthy delays in appeals against decisions, but a perceived lack of independence. To be fair to the Department, there were 51,000 appeals last year, twice the 2007 figure. Clearly, the Department is dealing with more people than used to be the case and seems to be doing so at a greater speed, given the numbers.

However, every Department must be open and transparent, particularly concerning a core issue like social protection payments. I am reminded of recent court decisions involving Dublin City Council, one that also relates to other local authorities. The issue is one of being judge and jury in one's own case. The Department of Social Protection is no different. FLAC has called for the establishment of a statutorily independent appeals process. We should give this request serious consideration. Will the Leader ask the Minister, Deputy Burton, to attend the House for a debate on social protection and to explain the appeals process and provide her opinions on whether a statutorily independent body to conduct same would be better for those who depend on social welfare payments?

David Norris (Independent)
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In recent days, the foreign affairs committee has held informal meetings with, among others, the head of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, UNRWA, which is in charge of the situation in Palestine, to discuss the issues of the educational and medical needs of that vulnerable group of people in the Middle East. Yesterday, we met a group from the UK Parliament. One of its leaders was Sir Gerald Kaufman, a distinguished Jewish Member of Parliament. That group expressed great concern that Palestine had slipped off the international agenda. This would be dangerous, given the pressure being applied to people in Gaza, for example. We could be facing into another intifada if we are not careful and do not give people some degree of hope. This is particularly so given the volatile situation in neighbouring countries, especially Syria.

I am concerned by the rebalancing of priorities within what is now the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. A previous manifestation of elements of this Government ensured that human rights were given a high priority, but that seems to have slipped.

Will the Leader bring this matter to the Government's attention? The Tánaiste is on board, but people do not realise. The European Parliament rewards Israel every time it misbehaves. This is astonishing. Operation Cast Lead was immediately followed by an improvement in trade relations. Human rights protocols have never operated. In the European Parliament today, there will be a vote on a pharmaceutical agreement. Israel is one of the largest producers of generic drugs, yet many of them are produced in settlement areas, which makes them illegal, yet favourable treatment is being given. We need generic drugs, but we cannot sacrifice human rights in this way. I am concerned and hope that people will keep this situation to the fore of their minds, even in these difficult times.

I am also concerned about the financial situation. The House could have continued monitoring the situation on a day like yesterday when we had little to debate. Perhaps the Leader could set an hour aside to review the financial situation. I was horrified at yesterday's news of 1.3 million Irish citizens having ¤50 or less disposable income at the end of each month. We are facing into a budget that will crucify them again. How can such people face tax increases and income cuts? I do not know. One cannot get blood out of a stone. Not even Chancellor Merkel can perform that particular miracle.

I will be distressed if there is no movement on the Mater Hospital. We must move. The children of Ireland are waiting and politicians are dithering. After reviewing the situation, I believed that the Mater Hospital was a good site that provided many co-location possibilities. When that option was thrown out, 30 proposers of various types came to the top of the pond like piranhas at the scent of meat. There are only two or three options. Let us make a decision.

I do not see any difficulty in the Tánaiste - who is coincidentally Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and the leader of the junior coalition party - reviewing the issue. We would be holding him in contempt if he did not inform himself. There is nothing unconstitutional or illegal about it and it is a nonsense to suggest there is. This view was supported on the radio within the past hour by a spokesperson for the principal coalition party. Let us not make mischief about the children's hospital; we should make a decision and go ahead to build it.

Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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I ask that a debate be arranged on the sentencing of prisoners. In this country we, as legislators, have a duty to the 99.99% of the population who are law-abiding, and we currently have a revolving door system in place in the prisons. People in this country, particularly those in rural areas, live in fear, as people who are out on bail can continue to commit offences. Moreover, people can be tried on five, six or seven offences and still receive a sentence that runs concurrently. This process must be reviewed because we, as legislators, have that duty to our people.

During the terms of previous Governments and even this Government, we have heard about zero tolerance but it is not evident in this country. People deserve to be protected by the law so we must review sentencing. There is also a revolving door process whereby we send young people to prison as young offenders and they come out worse because we do not have a proper education system in prisons.

Last week, the wife of a publican in Kilkenny died. When he was burying his wife, a van arrived outside his pub, which is 200 yards from the Garda station. The thieves cleared out all the alcohol, cigarettes and televisions from the pub before going upstairs to the living quarters and clearing out furniture and jewellery. That is a cold and callous act, and people should not suggest that these people are not repeat offenders. Such thieves should be dealt with properly by the law and not allowed on our streets. I ask the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House for a debate, as it is an important issue.

I compliment Senator Byrne on his theatrics about the children's hospital. This Government will get it right, with a decision in two or three weeks. If this House is abolished, there will always be a place in the Abbey Theatre for the Senator.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I second the amendment to the Order of Business. I seek a debate in the near future on the supports being given by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport to the sporting organisations in the country, particularly the Football Association of Ireland, which in 2011 and 2012 received in the region of ¤3.4 million. As a soccer fan I know the Leader will be aware that at the weekend Sligo Rovers will receive the league trophy for the first time in 35 years. I will not dwell too much on the local aspect and there is a very serious point to be made in that the prize fund made available to Sligo Rovers as league champions is ¤100,000. That is a pittance that does not reflect on the professionalism of a team, the community effort in fund raising and spending ¤1.6 million throughout the course of the year. This is not just about Sligo Rovers but rather the entire League of Ireland.

The prize fund for the entire league is merely 25% of the salary of the chief executive officer. We can compare this to the counterparts in other countries, such as Spain, the 2012 European Championship winners, whose CEO receives ¤150,000, and the runners up, Italy, whose CEO receives ¤150,000. The CEO of the FAI is a fine man doing a good job but surely he could survive on ¤160,000 and increase the prize fund available to the league champions to ¤300,000. It is unacceptable for us to make a mockery of the genuine efforts of communities and footballers in this country, insulting them and calling ¤100,000 the prize fund for such a mammoth effort by an entire community. We give ¤3.4 million in State money to an organisation that pays some of its staff and managers well in excess of European norms within the sport.

John Gilroy (Labour)
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I rise to support Senator MacSharry's call to invite a Minister or Minister of State to the Chamber for a full debate on the issues he is raising. The Minister of State, Deputy Ring, is probably the best Minister of State responsible for sport that we have had in the country. He is very passionate and knows what he is on about. The Minister of State would be very interested in that debate.

The state of some our sports in the country leaves much to be desired sometimes, and we can see this from recent results of our national soccer team. I am involved at a grassroots level in coaching and sports administration and I can see at first hand the benefits of a small investment. Elite sports form an important element of the issue but to bring forward elite athletes, the investment must be made at a grassroots level. I support Senator MacSharry's call to ask the Minister of State to the Chamber.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the report published yesterday by the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, on private pension scheme charges, and we should discuss the issue in this House. It is very obvious that there is a wide variation in charges and individual pension schemes are particularly expensive. The report indicates that a final pension fund of ¤400,000 could lose up to 30%, or ¤120,000, in charges. Occupational scheme charges are more reasonable but anything up to 15%, or ¤60,000 from ¤400,000, goes in charges.

We are in a time when people are living longer and it is very important that people plan for and have decent pensions. It is particularly worrying that such a large portion of a pension pot is going on charges. I am concerned that individual members of schemes and pension scheme trustees are not particularly aware of the level of charging that is taking place. We must have a debate on the issue and ensure the pension industry is properly regulated. People should not be losing unnecessarily large chunks of their pension pots.

In commissioning this report the Minister has done a great service for individuals and the pension industry. It is a report worthy of much debate and consideration in the House. I hope we will get a much better regulated pension industry, with more realistic charges so that people will not lose such a large amount of their pension investment. In these very difficult times we must encourage people to invest in pension schemes but I am worried that many young people are now either not in a position or are not inclined to invest in pensions for the future, given how the pension industry has performed over a number of years. It is particularly worrying as people are living longer; we must provide for people's livelihood and income into the future.

John Crown (Independent)
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I preface a request to invite the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to the House with a brief statement. Yesterday was the 37th anniversary of the murder of Gordon Hamilton Fairley, the only medical doctor to die in the Northern Ireland Troubles. He was a medical oncologist and leader of the cancer medicine movement in the UK. He was walking down a street in London when a bomb intended for an elected representative who was his next door neighbour went off prematurely. The bomb was planted by the so-called Balcombe Street Gang and killed Dr. Hamilton Fairley at the age of 45. It causes quite a bit of appropriate soul searching for Irish cancer specialists every year when we go to the major European cancer meeting as there is a memorial lecture in which European oncology honours the greatest achievement of one of its leaders from the previous year. It is known as the Gordon Hamilton Fairley lecture.

I wish to ask two questions of the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. Will he express his concern to our Italian European colleagues about the conviction yesterday of a group of scientists and seismologists who committed the offence of not being able to predict an earthquake?

This is perhaps one of the most bizarre bits of modern jurisprudence I have heard in any western country and it speaks far more eloquently than anything else I could say to the need for having widespread science education incorporated into every day of everyone's education so that we have an informed citizenry who can make informed and logical decisions.

One cannot predict earthquakes and six scientists now face prison and financial penalties because they are being held responsible for an earthquake which caused the deaths of several hundred Italian citizens. While it is perhaps out of order for us to criticise our European colleagues on issues which relate to their own judiciary, I believe our concern should be expressed. My own sense is that international scientific authorities would want to think long and hard about siting meetings in Italy and supporting a regime, or a government, which can be so illogical in the way it handles scientific fact.

I would like to ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to clarify what follow-up has been done on the issue of the Bahraini doctors. On 2 October it was reported that the sentences of several of these doctors were less than they had been threatened with at the time of their involvement in the Bahraini riots - their involvement being medical, or looking after rioters. They were arrested and accused of taking part in the events, even though they had just followed their professional and ethical responsibilities. One of them is Dr. Ali al-Ekry, a senior orthopaedic surgeon, who trained in Ireland and who was sentenced to five years in prison. This is absurd and we cannot let this go off the boil. A motion was tabled in the Seanad in 2011 on this issue. I would like the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to maintain the pressure on the Bahraini authorities - I am not even sure whether a diplomatic representative is accredited to Ireland - to discuss this and to express our ongoing concern.

I would like the Leader to consider asking the Minister for Health to come to the House for a fundamental and far-reaching debate on how, during his term as the head of the EU's health operation during our Presidency of the EU, we can try to institute a widespread and fundamental change in the EU's attitude to the tobacco industry and, in particular, to look at the notion that we should pick a date in 2025 or 2030 and put the tobacco companies, the tobacco farmers, the investment funds and the nicotine addicts on notice that it will no longer be legal to profit in death and addiction from tobacco.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Like Senator MacSharry, I congratulate Sligo Rovers on their magnificent achievement in winning the premier league after 35 years and I agree with his call for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to come to the House to talk specifically about soccer in this country. A club like Sligo Rovers, which qualifies for Europe, can market Sligo as a town and area. I hope it draws a top club like Juventus, Borussia Dortmund or some large team in Europe which has a huge audience. People do not realise the potential a League of Ireland club has if it draws a big name in Europe in that it can market its area there. People coming here can see Sligo in its splendour. I hope that when the draw takes place, Sligo Rovers gets a good club.

The Minister should come to the House and maybe give us an idea as to whether he has a plan with the FAI on the future of grassroots and League of Ireland football. The League of Ireland has struggled on for many years. I was involved with Finn Harps for many years and people do not realise how difficult it is to keep a League of Ireland club going.

I again congratulate Sligo Rovers which has shown the rest of the country how to do it properly. It has a good set up and a good stadium. With teams like Finn Harps, Sligo Rovers and Derry City in the north west, there has always been a very strong soccer tradition there but we must grasp that. In this context the Minister does not realise the potential we have in going abroad. The national team has done much with the fans to promote the country and Fáilte Ireland should go with the fans and the FAI to the next venue. We are going to Sweden and Austria next year and we will be in London in May of next year. There are countries in which we can market Ireland through soccer. I agree with Senator MacSharry that the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport should come to the House to give us his thoughts and ideas on the future from grassroots level upwards.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I take this opportunity to welcome a decision by the European Parliament to grant additional funding to former TalkTalk workers in Waterford as part of the EU globalisation fund and to praise the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, officials in his Department, all the public representatives in Waterford, European Parliament Members, the employee representative groups and the body set up to represent the former workers for the part they played in making this happen. Much good work has been done and the hope is that the money will be used in a very efficient and targeted fashion to ensure that former TalkTalk workers can avail of opportunities so that they can get back into the workforce. While I am on the subject, I commend Senator Colm Burke on the role he played previously as a Member of the European Parliament in ensuring that Ireland accessed funding under the European globalisation fund.

We must, however, remind ourselves that mistakes were made in the past and I accept the Minister with responsibility has certainly learned from those mistakes and wants to ensure that best practice is put in place in terms of how this money is spent and utilised in the interests of the former workers. That has to be a good step forward. Again, I welcome the funding that has been announced. Can our appreciation for the work done on behalf of those former workers be passed on to the Minister?

On nine occasions, Senator Kathryn Reilly has called for a debate on youth unemployment, and I think this is the tenth time Sinn Féin has called for one. It is one of the big issues in Europe and in Ireland. We should have a stand-alone, full and proper debate in this House. If it could be arranged between now and the end of this session we would all benefit from it given the high levels of youth unemployment we have, which is clearly being linked to emigration. I respectfully ask that the call made not only by Sinn Féin but by several Members of this House for such a debate would be acceded to and that it would happen as soon as possible.

Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I agree with my colleague, Senator Hayden, in regard to the whole area of social protection and the survey done by FLAC. It is unacceptable that people, who have a social protection need, must wait 32 weeks for an appeal. If there is an oral hearing, it takes up to a year. This is putting undue pressure on people who are in that difficult position. The same applies to disability appeals, of which we have some experience. Something should be done to speed up the process.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I invite the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House as a matter of urgency to explain his decision to repatriate David Brozovsky, aged 23, who is in the Midlands Prison for the murder of Sharon Coughlan on 15 September 2007.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not mention names.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think a convicted murderer and rapist should be protected by this House. He has no right to be protected by it. He is the subject of repatriation by the Minister to the Czech Republic.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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It would be more appropriate to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I hope the Leas-Chathaoirleach will accept that but I will await the outcome of my proposal that the Minister come to the House. At 19 years of age, David Brozovsky was convicted to serve 20 years and 13 years concurrently for the murder and rape of this young mother of two children now aged 15 and 12.

This is a dastardly situation. The Minister has not consulted the family or got their approval for the repatriation of this murderer to the Czech Republic. There is no guarantee that the Czech Republic will not release this man prematurely, which has happened in other repatriation cases. The only guarantee is if he is held in the Midlands Prison until he serves his sentence for the acts of murder and rape, for which he has expressed no regrets or sorrow. We do not know the contacts he has-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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-----in the Czech Republic. If the Coughlan family were from Dublin South, this man would not be repatriated to the Czech Republic.

There is one law for the rich and one for the poor. I can guarantee the House that the Minister knows his people in his constituency and he would never repatriate this man.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should be made to withdraw that comment.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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He will get his line in the newspapers tomorrow.

David Norris (Independent)
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On a point of order, despite my long-standing friendship with Senator Leyden, that was a completely inappropriate remark and I ask him in a spirit of gentlemanliness to withdraw it.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Under no circumstances will I because it is a fact.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should reflect on what he said. I will come back to him shortly.

Deirdre Clune (Fine Gael)
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That was an outrageous comment.

David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Deirdre Clune (Fine Gael)
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The Minister made the reasons behind his decision clear on RTE last Thursday night; I was watching.

I would like to raise the issue of the clocks going back an hour on Sunday morning according to daylight saving time. I acknowledge Senator Conway raised the issue yesterday but this change is inconvenient and confusing and I wonder what it is worth. This time last year, a Bill passed Second Stage in the House of Commons which asked the British Government to examine this issue. We should also engage in such a process. The reason for these changes goes back to end of the First World War when adequate daylight for rebuilding across Europe was needed. However, nowadays, we have street lighting and every house has electricity and, therefore, we do not need an additional hour in the morning. It is also important to examine this issue from a leisure point of view and from the point of view of those doing business across Europe as it would avoid confusion and make life easier for them. An additional hour's daylight at the weekend would be good for sports participation, walking, gardening and other outdoor pursuits while more light in the evenings would make more sense for children and, in particular, elderly people who are confined to their homes. I am not sure whether the Minister for Justice and Equality or the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has responsibility in this regard but will the Leader schedule a debate on this? We should consider this in order that we do not return to this again this time next year with a Member raising it on the Order of Business. We should get to grips with it and examine whether daylight saving time serves a purpose in 2012.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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Two former senior civil servants, John Lumsden and Pat Mangan, wrote strongly in the latest edition of The Sunday Business Post about the need for Civil Service reform saying,

It is important to foster a culture in Departments that questions conventional wisdom. Officials should be encouraged to act as effective devil's advocates and this role should be positively reflected in their performance reviews...If we continue with our existing arrangements, absolute clarity as to the role and accountability of senior civil servants in Ireland will remain elusive. We worked with many Ministers of various political parties and, with one or two exceptions, they showed little interest in reforming their Departments of the wider Civil Service. This must change."

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I support the call by Senator Michael Mullins for a debate on pensions. The Minister for Social Protection said yesterday that she would like to impose a cap on tax relief for pensions in excess of ¤60,000 annually. That is a commitment in the programme of Government but I would like the debate to focus on charges given some pensions have fallen in value by 31%. I commend the Senator on raising the issue.

I refer to the children's referendum about which there has been little debate in the media. An all-party Oireachtas event had to be cancelled because of the McKenna judgment. We all value democracy but we also value common sense or, as Senator Barrett said regarding another sphere, conventional wisdom. I commend the ICA and many other voluntary groups on coming out in favour of the referendum but the media seem to be neglecting the campaign. What is their duty in providing informed academic discussion and information to the public in general? The referendum is news. The Irish Times MRBI poll showed there is conventional wisdom in the country but people like to hear this reported in the media. Common sense has gone out the window and I would like to have a debate on common sense, conventional wisdom and the McKenna judgment. While we want to protect it, we have to use common sense as well.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday, Senator Reilly and I informed the Deputy Leader and others that yet another factory, Co-operative Poultry Products Limited in Cootehill, County Cavan, had gone into receivership on Monday last, potentially threatening 90 jobs. Unfortunately, yesterday evening those jobs were lost and the 90 workers were informed. They have been forced into occupying the factory to ensure they receive the entitlements they are due. I do not want another Vita Cortex or Kingscourt Bricks scenario to develop and neither do the other Members or the 90 families involved. The Kingscourt Bricks workers had to occupy the premises in which they were formerly employed for up to eight months until they finally received their entitlements. Will the Leader please intervene with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to secure a resolution to this difficulty as quickly as possible? It will have to be resolved at the end of the day and I implore him to intervene with the Minister as soon as possible today to ensure this happens.

I compliment the Minister for Education and Skills on his comprehensive contribution to the debate on the changes to the junior certificate examination and the literacy and numeracy strategy. Would it be possible to invite him back to the House in the near future for a discussion on the adult and continuing education sector with particular emphasis on the VTOS and Youthreach programmes?

Lorraine Higgins (Labour)
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I welcome Senator Keane's comments regarding the children's referendum. A cross party referendum event supported by female Oireachtas Members will be held in Merrion Square Park at 12.30 p.m. I seek everybody's support later.

David Norris (Independent)
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The Senator cannot have everybody if it is only females.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I am sure there was some discussion yesterday regarding the costs attaching to pension funds and the deterrent they are to people investing in them. There is also speculation regarding changes that might be made in the forthcoming budget. Will the Leader arrange a debate on pensions? It is extraordinary that less than 50% of people have occupational pensions.

Given the change in demographics, there is a major potential liability being built up for the future, both in the public service and in the private sector, as people reach retiring age. There appears to be no planning and the Government is so oblivious that the Minister for Social Protection made changes to the State pension last year that mitigated against the interest of women who must leave the workforce during their careers, particularly during periods when they have children. That should be recognised in the system. We need a genuine debate on the issue. As part of that, and arising from the report, there should be a system of financial regulation with some fairly effective independent ombudsman.

We should have some debate on the Personal Insolvency Bill before it comes before the House. Provision should be made for adjudication so that banks do not have a veto. A plethora of families are buried under a spiral of debt from which they will never be able to extricate themselves. Unless we address the issue, there will not be growth in the economy. It would be useful to debate those issues.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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Following the comments of Senator Thomas Byrne on the children's hospital, yesterday I raised the point that we must consider this in respect of the coming 20 years and long-term planning. It is important the decision is reached on that basis rather than on current requirements. There has been too much delay going back over ten or 15 years and the wrong decision was made because we did not consider the long-term issue when the initial decision on location was taken. It is important to look to the future, not just at 2012 and 2013. When the decision is made, the Minister should come to the House and give a full explanation on how he proposes expediting delivery of the project. Once the decision is made, it is important all political parties and the people involved get behind the project rather than making it a political football. Too many people are directly affected by this and it is important to work together.

Speaking of working together, Senator Cullinane referred to the European globalisation fund. In 2009, when Dell let go 2,000 people, the globalisation fund structure in Europe meant that Limerick did not qualify for funding. There had to be a loss of 1,000 jobs in an area and the jobs had to go to a destination outside Europe. A number of us approached the Commission and, within six weeks of Dell being closed, the Commission adjusted the rules to accommodate funding for Limerick. At the time of the loss of jobs at Waterford Wedgwood, 1,000 jobs had to be lost. In that case, the Commission adjusted the rules so that it applied to where more than 500 jobs were lost in an area. This is an example of working together, to which Senator Cullinane referred. All political groups from the political parties in Waterford, along with Departments and people at European level, worked together to help those who had lost their jobs to get back to work. We should all be trying to make sure that, where jobs are lost, we provide the necessary training to ensure people can return to employment in the shortest period. I congratulate those in Waterford and those who worked together at European and departmental level for their work to ensure funding could be made available at the earliest possible date.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden lost it with his outburst against the Minister and he did his argument no favours. The Leas-Chathaoirleach was quite correct to ask him to reflect and I am sure he, being an honourable man, will do so.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Not the person in jail-----

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Regarding Senator Thomas Byrne's comments on the Smithwick tribunal, it is well documented that vital new information became available from the PSNI and another source. In addition, a key witness became ill. He stopped giving evidence for more than one hour a day and his evidence was spread over a period.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but the Minister was informed of that by the judge and did not inform the Seanad at the time.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Coghlan without interruption.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator was rather blunt and he wronged the Minister. There is an exchange of correspondence and I have not seen it.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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It was not revealed to the Seanad when the Minister came into the House to discuss the Smithwick tribunal.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Byrne can make the point later.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne is incorrect. The Minister was not aware, no more than Judge Smithwick, of the availability of the new information. Let us be calm about the matter. Words will be spoken about it later. We must be even-handed and the tribunal is conducting important work very well.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Before calling on the Leader, I asked Senator Leyden to reflect on what he had said.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I had indicated that I want to contribute.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I will allow Senator Noone to contribute.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Regarding pensions, I join colleagues in calling for a debate. I would like a wider debate because there is a problem with the amount being paid into pensions and a cap is an idea that must be entertained. My generation has a real problem with pensions because so many people are in negative equity. Paying money into a pension fund is not a priority and it is easy to kick it down the road. That applies to individuals and also to the Government in the sense that it will not be a problem for a number of years. We need to be planning for it now and we could usefully debate the matter in the House.

With regard to future planning, I join Senator Burke in his comments on the children's hospital. Some 50 years ago, we did not know that the Baggot Street and Adelaide hospitals would not be of the requisite size. Space and planning must be considered. I am not trying to influence the decision but it is a sensible suggestion that the Minister for Health comes to the Chamber to explain how the decision was arrived at.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I asked Senator Leyden to reflect on his comments. He raised an important issue and the unfair remark was his comment that the Minister would take a different view if the victim was from his constituency. That is unfair and unfounded and I asked Senator Leyden to reflect on it. I do not want him to make further comment unless he wants to withdraw the remark.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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To clarify----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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No, the Senator will either withdraw the remark or not. I am not allowing further debate on the matter.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I have reflected and the proof of the pudding will be in the eating when the Minister decides not to repatriate the man.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Leyden is being disrespectful to the Chair and is adding insult to injury with that comment.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The acting Leader of the Opposition, Senator Thomas Byrne, raised the question of the Smithwick tribunal. We will have a debate on the matter today. Further delay in the tribunal hearings is a matter of concern but vital new information has come to hand. The Government is anxious to ensure the tribunal is facilitated in carrying out its work as fully and expeditiously as possible, consistent with a fair examination of the facts. I am sure the Minister for Justice and Equality will explain the point in the course of today's debate on the topic. He always said he would provide an extension of time if it was necessary to deal with any matter that arose.

Regarding the children's hospital, the Taoiseach has explained that the decision will be made in the next two to three weeks.

There is no conflict between Government partners on the issue. Speculation appears to be rife in Fianna Fáil, including that former city manager, Mr. John Fitzgerald, has been consulted on matters. Mr. Fitzgerald has stated that nobody has contacted him on the matter. Fianna Fáil should not be engaging in speculation like this. The decision will be made in the best interests of children, as it should be. As has been stated, we should all get behind the decision when made, irrespective of where the hospital is to be located.

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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If the Senator had taken that view when in opposition the hospital would be up and running now.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader, without interruption, please.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Bacik raised the purple flag initiative and also complimented Dublin City Council on its recent initiative, which it is hoped will bear fruit next year during The Gathering. It is also hoped The Gathering will be a successful event not alone in Dublin but countrywide.

Senator Hayden called for a debate on the need for an independent appeals process in respect of social protection issues, as proposed by the Free Legal Advice Centres. The Minister, Deputy Burton, was in the House last week for a debate on social welfare issues. We will shortly resume that debate, at which time the Senator could make her point.

I can assure Senator Norris that there is no slipping of standards or lack of emphasis on human rights in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The Senator also raised budgetary matters. Members have had ample opportunity, and will have further opportunities, to raise budgetary matters with various Ministers.

Senator O'Neill called for a review of prison sentencing in terms of consistency and ensuring punishment fits the crime. A number of Members also called for such a debate last week. I will request the Minister for Justice and Equality to come into the House to discuss the matter which is of concern to many people, not alone in urban Ireland, but in rural Ireland.

Senator MacSharry spoke about the FAI and the ¤100,000 prize fund. There was a time when no prize fund was available within the FAI. The provision was only recently introduced. I agree with Senator Gilroy and other Members that we should discuss this issue by way of a debate on sports funding rather than on the FAI. As someone involved in administration of the FAI at schoolboy and youth levels for many years, I believe we should not confine the debate to soccer but should focus on funding of sports in all areas.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Not too many sporting organisations are in receipt of ¤3.5 million.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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We can discuss that matter in the context of the capital programme and funding for all sports bodies.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Gilroy can outline how good the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, is.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader, without interruption, please.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Gilroy also made the point that funding at grassroots level for sporting organisations is of paramount importance. I am sure we are all agreed on that.

Senators Mullins, Walsh and Noone raised the issue of private pension schemes, the report on which was published yesterday. The Minister, Deputy Burton, is to be complimented on commissioning the report on pensions. In addition, the Minister stated that as the report is a fact-finding study, which is technical and complex in nature, she would like to give interested individuals and bodies an opportunity to consider it and its recommendations, following which she would welcome their response during the next three months. The Government will then propose policy and regulatory action as necessary. I agree with Members that we should have a debate on the report during that three-month period. I will ask the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, to come into the House for such a debate. I am sure the Minister would welcome comments from Members during that debate.

Senator Crown spoke about the situation in Italy in terms of scientists being held responsible for not forecasting earthquakes, which is crazy. I will bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Prior to the Order of Business, I had a meeting with group leaders. Members will be pleased to note that we have agreed an all-party motion on the Bahraini doctors, which we hope to include on tomorrow's agenda. It is a matter about which we are all concerned and one which should not be let lie.

I will bring to the attention of the Minister for Health the attitude of the tobacco industry and the need for him to press the matter at European level, in particular during Ireland's presidency of the EU.

Senator Harte also raised the issue of sports funding. I will try to arrange that debate. Senator Cullinane raised the issue of the globalisation fund. I appreciate his positive comments in that regard. I am sure we all share the view that the workers of TalkTalk should receive the necessary training to allow them return to the workforce. I compliment Senator Colm Burke who, as a former MEP, was the first to push for access to the globalisation fund by Ireland following the situations in Limerick and at Waterford Crystal.

The issue of training and youth unemployment has been raised on a number of occasions by Senator Reilly. I agree that we should have that debate. Professor Pissarides will be in the House on Thursday, 8 November to discuss youth unemployment in Europe. I am glad an opportunity has been afforded to us to discuss this important issue which has been called for by Senator Reilly on a number of occasions.

Senators Comiskey and Hayden raised the issue of an appeals process for social welfare benefits and the unacceptable delays in this regard in the system, including in respect of the carer's allowance and invalidity pensions and so on. The Minister for Social Protection will be in the House soon, at which time Senators can raise this issue with her. There is no point in Members making these points on the Order of Business. They should relay their points to the Ministers in question when they are in the House.

Senator Leyden referred to the situation of a convicted rapist and murderer and made outrageous comments in relation to the Minister for Justice and Equality. I am disappointed the Senator has not withdrawn those outrageous comments.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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On the transfer of the gentleman in question, the Act provides that non-nationals serving sentences in Ireland may apply to serve the remainder of their sentences in their own countries, where those countries are party to the Council of European Convention for the Transfer of Sentenced Persons. During the period from 1995 to 2011, approximately 140 Irish citizens were transferred to Ireland from abroad to serve their sentences here, including 39 Irish citizens convicted of murder in other states. A similar number of foreign prisoners were returned to their home countries to serve their sentences there.

In this particular case, the Czech authorities have given assurances that the man concerned will continue to have his sentence of life in prison enforced and that he will serve at least 20 years of that life sentence before being considered for conditional release. Furthermore, the serving of an exclusion order, which will require the man to remain outside Ireland, is currently being considered and processed through normal channels.

The Minister was at all times conscious of the dreadful events in 2007 and their impact of the victim's family members. On becoming aware of these concerns, the Minister decided to defer the transfer last May and subsequently had a lengthy meeting in Longford with members of the Coughlan family.

Since then the Department has been in extensive correspondence with the family's solicitor and has provided detailed responses to the correspondence received. When the Minister made his recent decision to transfer Mr. Brozovsky to the Czech Republic, he directed that in advance of the implementation of the decision the family be informed of what that decision was. In making his decision, the Minister stated the family should be told of the circumstances, including the guarantees of the Czech authorities with regard to serving the minimum sentence of 20 years. In view of these facts I will give Senator Leyden an opportunity to withdraw the outrageous comments made in respect of the Minister. I outlined in detail some of the circumstances of the situation which I hope will be helpful to the House.

Senator Clune spoke about European summer time, a matter which has been raised by Senator Quinn every year I have been a Member of the House. It was being examined by an Oireachtas committee and also by the UK authorities. It would be very important, in view of the common business interests we have, that the UK would jump at the same time. I do not know what conclusions the UK authorities reached in this regard. The matter should be considered and acted upon, if we can get agreement between the Irish and UK authorities in particular.

I note the points made by Senator Barrett on Civil Service reform. The Croke Park agreement is one thing but there is also a need, as he mentioned, for a broad range of Civil Service reform. The Minister for Public Service and Reform will come before the House soon to discuss this matter and it will be an opportunity for the Senator to raise these points.

Senators Keane, Higgins and others spoke about the children's rights referendum and outlined its importance. I agree with the comments that we should all ensure people are informed of what is happening in this regard. It is our duty as Members of both Houses to inform people about the referendum and ensure they come out and vote.

Senator Wilson spoke about Co-operative Poultry Products in Cootehill. As he stated, Simon Coyle of Mazars was appointed receiver on Monday afternoon. A total of 90 people were employed there and 40 were let go. It is likely the receiver will let go the remaining production staff, which has probably already happened. The receiver will try to find a buyer for the business, and a number of potential buyers examined the operation recently with a view to purchasing it but no firm offers have been made to date. A representative of Enterprise Ireland is on hand and has met the executive chairman of the co-op and is also in contact with the receiver. Every effort is being made to sell the business. I agree with Senator Wilson that the workers there should receive their full entitlements. I hope many of them will return to work if the co-op is sold. It is the wish of all to have the co-op back up and running with people employed.

Senator Burke spoke about the children's hospital. We all agree the timeframe should be spelled out when a decision is made and we should all get behind the project.

I do not propose to accept the amendment to the Order of Business.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Thomas Byrne has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a debate with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade on the proposals for a new children's hospital be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.