Seanad debates
Thursday, 22 March 2012
Order of Business
10:30 am
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Finance Bill 2012 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude no later than 5 p.m., if not previously concluded.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I raised the issue of the household charge yesterday. Every day that passes shows the current method of attempting to collect it is failing. The information campaign is negligible and the Government is not speaking with one voice. The Tánaiste seemed, to put it mildly, confused yesterday afternoon when answering questions about how individuals would go about paying the charge
To be constructive, I call on the Government to support the call from the Irish Postmasters' Union. Its general secretary, Mr. Brian McGahan, has asked that the 1,100 post offices in the country be allowed to take payments in cash across counters. We have a post office network which should be used. I am getting calls, as I am sure everyone else is, from people all over the country wondering how, when and where to pay the charge.
This is an unmitigated disaster and does not give me any confidence in how the Government can manage in the future with a fully fledged property tax. It is the first year of payment, but the Government has to realise the current system is not working. Fewer than 20% of households, or 300,000, have paid. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business, which will be supported by my colleagues in Sinn Féin, that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, comes to the House and explains to us whether he will extend the deadline, which he should, and allow people to access the 1,100 post offices around the country to pay the charge. A law has been passed by the Oireachtas and should be abided by. The campaign has been a disaster.
I welcome the comments of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, yesterday that some progress appears to have been made on the promissory note payment due at the end of this month. I and my party welcome that. There is an important meeting of the ECB governing council today. We need to see the detail of this. The Minister seemed quite confident yesterday that some arrangement would be made. We will obviously reserve judgment on the arrangement until it comes to fruition. I wish the Minister and the Governor of the Central Bank well today in their negotiations with the ECB governing council.
Yesterday was an important day in the Seanad. We had a very good Private Members' debate which became a bit heated at times. Some people got a little hot under the collar.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, we did the Seanad some service yesterday by informing and educating some Members on the other side of the House, particularly some of the newcomers to Fine Gael who may have learned some lessons.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I was not talking about the Senator. Yesterday's debate was important and covered new politics. I mentioned the breaching of pay caps for special advisers. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, has a great friend, Mr. Fergal Leamy, who was his special adviser and is an eminent individual. He said he would come on board as his patriotic duty and left after six months. He breached the pay cap. Another colleague in Glanbia, Mr. Ross Mac Mathuna, has now been appointed as the Minister's special adviser. What happened to the pay cap?
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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It is inappropriate to name people. It might be prudent to conclude.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the new special adviser to the Minister, Deputy Coveney. Ms Mary Minihan and The Irish Times gave us a very clear insight into the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party meeting yesterday evening when the matter was discussed at length. I ask my Fine Gael colleagues on the other side of the House to consider the fact that the most recent adviser appointed to the Government has once again resulted in a breach of the pay cap. A man is being paid €110,000, which is €18,000 above the cap. It shows that the pay cap is a nonsense and joke, and another example of pure spin and PR. The Government's policy is not being adhered to in this regard.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank Senator O'Brien for his very constructive comments on a number of issues. I agree with him that it is people's duty to pay the household charge. I disagree with him on the numbers paying. Over the coming days before the deadline of 31 March we will see an exponential rise in those paying. People always leave any payment until they absolutely have to pay it.
I thank him for his constructive comment on the Anglo Irish Bank promissory note. All of us here, whatever our political affiliation, must be hopeful of good news on that front from the Minister, Deputy Noonan. We all wish him well in the deal he is seeking to finalise on the deferral of payment of the €3.1 billion to 2025. It is a very welcome development.
In response to an issue raised by the Opposition on a number of occasions, I welcome the fact that the Minister, Deputy Noonan, announced the matter in the Dáil yesterday. It is appropriate that such an announcement is made in the Oireachtas. It was welcome, both in terms of where it was made and its substance.
Senator John Whelan yesterday called for a debate on banking. We might very usefully have such a debate. It should consider the broader issue of not just salaries paid to bankers, but how the banks are being financed, particularly in light of the announcement by AIB that there will be no such thing as free banking for its customers.
I call for a debate on the Mahon tribunal report. It has just been published and nobody will have had a chance to read or digest it in any detail, but it would be very useful for us to debate its findings when we have had a chance to consider the very large number of findings and conclusions the report is likely to draw.
Mary Ann O'Brien (Independent)
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I wish to bring two matters to the attention of Senators. Some may be aware of the European Court of Justice ruling last week that could see hoteliers being required to pay for their guests' use of copyrighted material. This means any hotel with radios and televisions in its bedrooms would be forced to pay royalties.
I was under the impression that a hotel bedroom was a private space. Understandably, the judgment has been met with criticism by the Irish Hotels Federation chief executive Mr. Tim Fenn. He said the outrageous ruling will result in an additional layer of costs being imposed on hotels and guesthouses at a time when many businesses, as we are all aware, are struggling to survive. If introduced in Ireland it has been reported hotel owners may have to pay up to €1 per day per room, regardless of whether the room is occupied. In case of a 50 room hotel this will cost €50 a day, €350 a week or €18,200 a year. It is madness.
Is this a bill the struggling hotel industry can afford? The judgment stated the broadcasting of phonograms or musical performances by hotel operators is of a profit-making nature. The action of the hotel by which it gives access to the broadcast work to its customers constitutes an additional service which has an influence on the hotel's standing and therefore on the price of the rooms. It said, in the explanation for its ruling, that equitable remuneration of the broadcast must be paid by the hotel in addition to that paid by the broadcaster. I ask the Leader to bring this to the attention of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar. It will have a major impact on our tourism sector which is one of the more positive stories emerging from our economy.
I also echo a call from IBEC earlier this week for the Government to set up a single web portal for companies to access information on research and development funding and funding in general. A wide range of supports are available from a variety of agencies and programmes, which is wonderful, but one would want to have ten degrees as well as a master's degree from Trinity College, UCD and ten other universities to find one's way through the maze.
To help companies navigate the maze, IBEC has published a new guide to research and develop opportunities available to Irish companies. Unlock the Opportunities identifies over 30 specific supports available for research activities from over 14 State and semi-State agencies and over €11 billion has been made available by the European Commission.
Almost 50% of companies in Ireland are now carrying out some form of innovative activities. We all know innovation is a way forward for most of our businesses. Evidence shows that use of these types of support have boosted the export resilience of companies, making them more competitive in the global marketplace. Companies can use the information contained in the guide to select the approach-----
Mary Ann O'Brien (Independent)
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I would like to hear the reaction of the Leader to the suggestion that there be a one-stop shop for businesses. I encourage him to speak to the appropriate Minister, probably the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, with a view to setting up such a system.
Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I condemn the actions of AIB in requiring its customers to have €2,500 in their current accounts to avail of free banking. How many people in Ireland today can afford to leave that amount of money sitting in an account? We are hearing every day of the week that people cannot afford to pay the household charge and the registration fee in respect of septic tanks yet AIB is now requiring its customers to have €2,500 in their accounts in order to avail of free banking. The bank needs to get real. It is no longer a private entity; it is in State ownership. It is time the Government stepped up to the mark and took that bank to task.
I call on the Leader to ensure AIB is called to appear before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and Public Expenditure to account for its actions. This is not fair. While members of Government are in Europe trying to negotiate a break for taxpayers AIB is turning the screws on its customers. It is time for action. It is time for the Government to step in and ensure no more of this nonsense. I call on people to move their accounts to banks offering better deals, which information is available on the national consumer affairs website. The people of Ireland need to stand up and be counted. They are constantly complaining about the introduction of the household charge. The people need to resist this charge by the banks and if necessary move their accounts to another bank.
David Norris (Independent)
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I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that No. 17 on today's Order Paper be taken before No. 1, which amendment I understand will be seconded by Fianna Fáil.
I call on the Leader to find a method of conveying to the Papal Nuncio here our concern, on a humanitarian basis, in regard to a report which appeared in yesterday's edition of The Irish Times, by which I was thunderstruck. As far as I am aware the report was not taken up by any other media outlet. I heard nothing about it on radio or television. The report relates to the castration of up to 100 teenage boys in Holland during the 1950s who showed evidence of homosexuality, one of whom was in an institution, the chairman of which was the head of the Catholic People's Party and then Dutch Prime Minister. One of the boys, a 16 year old called Henk Hethuis, reported sexual abuse to the police. He was the first selected for castration. None of the parents was informed of this operation. Apparently, representatives of the Dutch State attended board meetings at which this was discussed. I believe we should also express our humanitarian concern on this matter to the Dutch ambassador. It is extraordinary. We all recall what happened to gay people during the Second World War, the hatred shown towards them and how that was covered up. We are due an apology from the Christian churches for this. Our concern in this matter should be brought home to the Dutch ambassador and ambassador of the Vatican.
I congratulate Senator Moloney on her contribution in regard to Allied Irish Bank, with which everyone in this House agrees. It is a colossal impertinence that Allied Irish Bank, which has been bailed out by the Irish taxpayer, is demanding that its customers have €2,500 in their accounts in order to avoid bank charges, which money the bank reinvests free of charge.
I give a guarded welcome to what has been arranged by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan. All he has done is transform what was a challengeable debt into a sovereign debt from which there will be no escape. The amount of saving involved will be approximately €120 million per year. That is it. Let us not exaggerate it. It is a small move. We should be careful and only give it a guarded welcome.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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This is a good day for Ireland. I do not agree with Senators Darragh O'Brien or David Norris that we can have no confidence in how the Government can manage into the future.
The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has struck a significant deal for Ireland. We will have 13 years to pay off a legacy debt, which along with growth and inflation will go a long way towards helping us address it. We need that time.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I am confident the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, will now focus on addressing our large banking debt of €30 billion. I know from speaking to him that that is his intention. Our country is in safe hands.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I expect Sinn Féin to welcome this announcement today and to acknowledge that it is what it wanted.
David Norris (Independent)
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The Opposition does not want to pay any debt which the people did not incur.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I hope Sinn Féin Members will be positive and grateful.
David Norris (Independent)
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If the Government wants to repay other people's debt off it goes.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Does Senator Healy Eames have a question for the Leader?
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I would welcome if the Minister, Deputy Noonan, could come to the House for a debate on banking in general, including the recently announced unreasonable charges which AIB proposes to impose on its customers and the commitment of banks, some of which have been nationalised, to this country and its people.
It is timely, in the context of this good news, that the Minister would come into the House.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I second the amendment proposed by Senator Norris.
It would be churlish of anyone in this House, in particular Members on this side, not to welcome the initiative of the Minister, Deputy Noonan.
11:00 am
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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We have all been aware during the past couple of weeks of his efforts in terms of relieving some of our debt burden. As stated by Senator Norris, the Government and Members on the opposite side of this House would be well advised to be somewhat cautious. This is not a panacea for the ending of our sovereign debt.
In an insightful article in today's Irish Independent, Mr. Brendan Keenan, whose articles I always recommend people should read as he gets to the nub of a matter, refers to a report by Goodbody Stockbrokers which states that while there will be a considerable saving over the period in question in terms of a possible reduction in the budget deficit, the gap between income and expenditure will remain. The Government will continue to have to borrow €15 billion per annum. It is important that the message that goes out from Government does not give any indication that there will be a weakening of its resolve in terms of reducing the budget deficit. As has been often said in this House, in particular by Members on this side, while austerity measures might work in the long they cause enormous pain, suffering and distress to people in the short to medium term.
It is important that the Government, in putting forward the view that it has been victorious - I do not wish to dilute the efforts of the Minister, Deputy Noonan, in this regard - it sends out the message that sadly austerity will continue. It would be irresponsible of Government and its representatives to say that because of the savings and technical nature of this financial transaction there will be a lot of money floating around. That would not in the best interests of the country in the short term.
I call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Deenihan, to the House. I acknowledge the Minister is always happy to come into this House to discuss his brief. However, following statements in yesterday's House of Commons budget speech by the Chancellor of the Exchequer there is a real possibility that the competitive edge which Irish television drama producers here have enjoyed is under threat. According to a report on this morning's "Morning Ireland" current television production in this country on behalf of the BBC provides more than 200 jobs. I would like the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, to come to the House to inform us how he intends to respond to this new initiative from the UK Government which will have a direct affect on television drama production here and jobs.
I formally second Senator Norris's amendment.
John Gilroy (Labour)
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I wish to add my voice to the comments made by my colleagues on the deal made on the promissory notes which it seems will come our way this afternoon. This is a great day for Ireland. No matter which way one looks at it, and one can hold it upside down or inside out, the fact we will not pay €3.1 billion on Saturday week can only be seen as a good thing. We cannot overstate how important it is, not only from the point of view of saving money, which we will, but also the further flexibility it gives the Government and the improvement in our reputation due to it.
I call for a debate on ethics and corruption in Irish politics in light of this morning's Mahon tribunal report. Another Fianna Fáil leader has been disgraced. There are very few of them who have-----
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order this is not in order.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think it is relevant to the Order of Business.
John Gilroy (Labour)
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I think it is very relevant in light of the publication of a very significant report after 15 years.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Is Senator Gilroy seeking a debate on it?
John Gilroy (Labour)
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Yes and this is the context in which I seek the debate.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We can have a proper debate on it after people have had a chance to read it. This would be the best way to do it.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I call for respect for the Chair. Is Senator Gilroy calling for a debate?
John Gilroy (Labour)
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Having read a summary of the Mahon tribunal report this morning I call for a debate on it to highlight what was wrong with the body politic in the past in Ireland. That is all.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Speakers should be called from alternate sides of the House.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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-----the Minister, Deputy Noonan, on the deal and I hope we hear more of the details on the promissory notes. We have seen how the Government has brought stability-----
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order speakers should be called from alternate sides of the House. I am confused as to why two speakers in a row were called from the Government side of the House.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I am calling the rota that was agreed.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It is not the rota which is followed every day.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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We have already wasted a minute.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It is important to put on the record that the stability and confidence the Government has brought to the country since it took office has been further enhanced today. It is what people have been speaking about for some time.
If I heard Senator O'Brien rightly he said yesterday's Private Members' debate did a service to the State. I am afraid Senator O'Brien and Fianna Fáil are suffering from a more serious form of delusion than even I thought possible if they imagine the quality or substance of the debate yesterday was high quality. It was a disservice to the country.
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Does Senator Keane want to debate it again?
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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That is only because you did not----
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Keane is sore because she got cut short.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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It is not relevant to today's Order of Business.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I got shouted down yesterday and I ask for the protection of the Chair. It is disgraceful.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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With respect, Senator Keane, it is a matter for me to decide what is relevant and yesterday's debate was had. Does Senator Keane have a question for the Leader?
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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With respect I am trying to save the Seanad from absolute extinction-----
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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-----because if that is the quality of debate it is right that we should go. We should do what we were elected to do. We should have quality and substance. We need good opposition but we need realism and a good dose of it.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Let us save the Seanad. Let us show we can.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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That is the road I want to go down. When I put up my hand initially-----
Marie Moloney (Labour)
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Let her speak. She was being interrupted.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I ruled her out of order and she did not accept my ruling. I am moving on to Senator Feargal Quinn.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I was raising the matter of AIB. Bank of Ireland has done the same thing-----
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry Senator Keane, you are out of order. Please respect the Chair. For the record, what was debated yesterday was agreed by the House and the Leader and I do not want to revisit issues. When somebody stands on the Order of Business it is to raise a question and not to go into another debate.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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When the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade came before the House a few weeks ago I raised the question of an Irish citizen who has been imprisoned in Sri Lanka for quite some time. This Irish citizen has been locked up for four and a half years, which is 1,674 days to date. He has not been charged. It is fair to say he is kept in desperate conditions. I am not sure where we go from here. What more can we do? The Tánaiste stated he would make the case and have the ambassador make the case also. This is longer than Terry Waite was imprisoned on his own some years ago. I will not mention the man's name but we should mention the case and think about him. His wife and children are here in Ireland and are worried about him. We must do something. I do not know what one can do except bring it to light. Therefore, I ask the Leader's advice in this regard. I will pass on the man's details to the Leader to ensure we continue to draw attention to the case, remember he is there, have sympathy, and not only this but act to ensure his release comes about.
Senator Mary Ann O'Brien mentioned hotel charges. I do not understand how we can treat hotel bedrooms as something to which we can apply the copyright charge. When we introduced the ban on tobacco we excluded hotel bedrooms, but now we state hotel bedrooms are to be regarded as something not private to the extent that each hotel bedroom will have to charge a tax on copyright. Something must be done about this. The charge on hotel bedrooms will take us another step towards our tourism businesses no longer being competitive.
Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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Like a number of other speakers I welcome the move on the promissory notes and the recognition internationally that we are making an effort as a country and that we need movement to allow the country to grow and move on. More than 100,000 families would like the same type of consideration. These are the 100,000 families in mortgage arrears who cannot move on with their lives until we come to a settlement about these mortgages. I call for a further debate on the Keane report. We have been waiting for a considerable period of time to see real movement on the measures proposed in the report such as split mortgages and debt to shared equity. The Government has had its share of understanding and it is time we gave the same understanding to the households in this country which face disaster every day.
I am disturbed to see how lending institutions use any opportunity to remove people from tracker mortgages. I agree with the call for a wide debate on the Keane report and on the behaviour of the banking sector. I am also concerned to see calls for wider access for lending institutions to those in mortgage arrears, in other words that they should be allowed to speak on a more frequent basis with mortgage holders in arrears and also with mortgage holders whom they believe will fall into arrears. There is a dangerous suggestion that lending institutions should have wider access to accounts not related to mortgage accounts to identify customers in pre-arrears situations. We should be quite vigilant when dealing with financial institutions. I call for an emergency debate as soon as possible on the Keane report.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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For the last year or more, on behalf of my party I have been calling in this House for a full write-down of the debt of Anglo Irish Bank. I wish the Minister for Finance well during the current negotiations on that matter. From what we are hearing, the negotiations are not centred on a debt write-down, unfortunately. My understanding is that two things are being sought, the first of which is that we turn the debt into sovereign debt in the form of a sovereign bond. Such a measure would mean future generations of Irish people would have to pay that back. It would no longer be toxic private banking debt - it would be sovereign debt for which this country's taxpayers would be liable. It would also mean we would be kicking the can down the road. It is now 2012 and we would be talking about 2025. I have a son who is five years of age. When he turns 18, he will be one of a generation of young people who will be asked to pay that debt back.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Is it better to pay next week or pay in 12 years' time?
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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We are not talking about a debt write-down, which is what we should be talking about.
John Gilroy (Labour)
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Good news becomes bad news when Sinn Féin gets its hands on it.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Only Sinn Féin could turn it bad.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Cullinane, without interruption. Does the Senator have a question for the Government?
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Government representatives need to be very careful.
John Gilroy (Labour)
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If the country was cured, Sinn Féin would be out of business.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Senator Healy Eames said this was a "good day" for Ireland.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Senator Gilroy said it was a "great day" for Ireland
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It gives us important breathing space.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Regardless of the deal that is concluded, it is neither "good" nor "great" that Irish taxpayers and the citizens of this State will be lumped with having to repay private banking debt.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Senator knows well that it is better than paying it next week.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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A write-down of that debt is necessary.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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We need to remind ourselves of what the Anglo Irish Bank promissory note was. The European Central Bank gave money to Anglo Irish Bank to write down private banking debt.
Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Let us have a debate and hear what Sinn Féin has to say about it.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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That is not what the Government parties were saying when they were in opposition.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I will finish by saying I welcome the negotiations.
Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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Let us listen to Sinn Féin's cloud cuckoo land policies.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I am concerned that there will be no write-down of the debt. My worry is that we are kicking the can down the road. This proposal has the potential to cost us more. If we pursue it, we might end up paying more in interest in the longer run.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator saying we should not pay it?
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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We do not believe we should pay it at all. Why should the taxpayer have to repay private banking debt?
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is living in never-never land.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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How is it never-never Land to say the taxpayers of this country should not have to pay private debt?
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Should I pay the private debts of individuals in this House? Should we start paying the private debts of mortgage holders who are in distress?
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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No, we should not. Why, therefore, should we pay private banking debt? It is not a "good day" or a "great day" for Ireland. It is a sad day if we are to be forced to pay this money back. It is a sad day for Ireland.
Marie Moloney (Labour)
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We all have to do our bit for the country.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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We are doing our bit. These are not our debts. They are not my debts or my child's debts.
Marie Moloney (Labour)
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They are not my debts either. I did not cause these debts to build up.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senators not to direct interjections across the floor of the House. I call Senator Mullins.
Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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It is a good day for Ireland. The country is in safe hands. We have a competent team trying to negotiate the best possible arrangement for this country. We inherited a terrible situation a number of years ago. The Minister, Deputy Noonan, should be complimented on the sure-footed, calm, competent and professional manner in which he is going about his business.
I support my colleagues who have spoken about unacceptable practices in various banking institutions that are putting pressure on their customers. I support the call for a debate in this House on banking arrangements and the mortgage issues that were raised by Senator Hayden. The regulation and operation of money lenders should be covered during that debate. It is unfortunate that many people on low incomes and poor people are falling into the clutches of money lenders. The Central Bank needs to tighten the regulations that govern this area. The largest money lending company in this country has 100,000 customers on its books. That is a frightening statistic. There are 40 licensed money lenders in this country. Numerous unlicensed lenders are operating under the radar. Some of those involved in door-to-door collections charge interest rates that are as high as 190%. They are adding to people's debt at a time when the traditional borrowing arrangements are not operating. The credit unions and the banking institutions are just not lending to people. We need to have a wide debate on this whole situation. If the credit unions do not give small loans to ordinary people, such people will fall into further debt and misery. They will be at risk of falling into the clutches of money lenders. The serious circumstances that are facing many people in this country warrant serious discussion in this House. I would like that to be included in the whole debate on banking.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Some Members of the House should listen to the debates that take place in this House. Like other Senators, I am encountering people who are in distress because they are unemployed. They are trying to provide for their families in difficult circumstances. Many of them are over-leveraged and unable to meet the repayments on their personal debts. The least we owe them is to listen to each other and to debate these matters constructively. We have a duty not to over-hype the situation. I am glad some Senators on the other side of the House have said that the Government is doing everything it can to secure the best arrangements for this country. There is no doubt that a significant write-down in the quantum of debt is essential for this country. When this crisis broke in 2008, I was of the view that there was a need for an extension of the period for repayment and a reduction in the coupon. I think it is on the record of the House that I felt that might be sufficient. I know now that it is not sufficient. It is not acceptable to look ten or 15 years into the future in a way that will force two generations of Irish people, rather than just one generation, to emigrate and endure economic hardship.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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We should support the Government's efforts as long as that is the route being taken. There is a suspicion that the Taoiseach might have made a mistake at his first Council meeting last year by conceding a particular item. I do not know if that is the case. I ask the leaders of the groups in this House to come together to draw up a composite motion, along the lines I am suggesting. I hope such a motion can be passed unanimously by this House. That would strengthen the hand of the Government. That is what I want to happen. It is in everyone's interest for this issue to be resolved. Significant resolve and pressure will be needed if that is to happen. I discussed this issue with Mr. Chopra in Washington two days ago. As all Senators are aware, he has said on the public record that the quantum of our debt simply has to be written down. Much of that debt has come from German and French banks, particularly German state banks, that invested in the over-liquidity that gave rise to our property collapse. I am not saying they should take the full hit. We were culpable. Individuals who borrowed have to carry some of the responsibility. I am definite in my opinion that the banks I have mentioned cannot escape scot free. The message that needs to go back to the European Union, Chancellor Merkel and the President of France is that they must play their part. We need to stand and say that as one voice in this House.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I am asking for that to happen. I support the call that has been made by others for a debate on the Mahon tribunal. I will make no comment on it, because I have not read it, other than to say that the Leas-Chathaoirleach and a small number of other people were in this Chamber when we set it up in September 1997 by asking a body of highly-paid professional people - we understood they were experts - to inquire urgently into specified matters of urgent public importance. This report has been published 15 years later at a huge cost to the taxpayer. The incompetence, the delays and-----
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can make those points during the debate.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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-----the exorbitant fees demanded by those who participated in these tribunals, and pursued by some of those who chaired them, were nothing short of scandalous.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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We should be prepared to say they were a disgrace.
Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the change in Sinn Féin policy. Twelve months ago, Deputy Adams told the IMF that it could go home with its money. Last night, Deputy Pearse Doherty said we should move away from where we are borrowing and rely on the IMF.
Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome Sinn Féin's change in policy on that issue.
On previous occasions I raised the retention of medical graduates from Irish colleges in the health service. I have received a report showing that only 43% of the hospital interns recruited last year have remained in training in our hospitals. That is a worrying trend. Last year the HSE faced major difficulties in filling hospital posts. This problem needs to be tackled as it will not go away. We, the taxpayers, spend money on putting people through third level education, but in a period of 12 months to two years following graduation, the doctors are no longer working in Irish hospitals. There must be something wrong with the system. I ask the Leader to facilitate a debate on this issue at an early date?
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think it is acceptable that a bank can set down that a deposit of €2,500 will decide the individual's worth to the welfare of the banking system. It is a crude instrument, particularly when one considered that some of the dispossessed, who will suffer as a result of AIB policy, would have had jobs at the time the bank was bailed out and their taxes would have been used to keep the banks in place. AIB should not let this issue linger on too long. The decision should be reversed immediately.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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We are living in unusual times. At present, the more one has the more concessions one is allowed, however, those with less will have no voice and will be sidelined and will suffer in loneliness. In view of what the State has done for the banks, it is time to stand up and with one voice leave them in no doubt that headquarters should reverse this unjust decision. The bank must be left in no doubt that this is payback time. AIB has shown no appreciation for what the taxpayers of this country did. I hope that the bank will not let a day pass without putting the word out that this policy has been put to one side.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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There is no doubt that the indication from the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, in the Dáil last night is a good news story. I agree with Senator O'Brien that it behoves us all to send our best wishes to him and the Governor of the Central Bank, Patrick Honohan, on wrapping up the detail during the ECB meeting. They both have been sure-footed in all the negotiations to date and have done a very good job for the State. From the ECB's point of view, a long-term Government bond is much more acceptable as security than a promissory note. This could be a win-win for both sides, and I hope at a reduced rate of interest.
The requirement by AIB that in order to have a bank account, one must have a minimum of €2,500 in a personal account, is a bit much and is over the limit. We must not forget, however, that the State has €21 billion invested in AIB and all banks must be run on a sustainable basis if we are ever to get a return on that investment for the taxpayer. We should not forget that point.
The banks must be able to stand on their own two feet, give a return to the taxpayer and reduce their dependence on the State investment.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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That will take quite a while. I sound that note of caution.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I dtosach báire, ba mhaith liom tacú leis an leasú atá molta ar an Riar Gnó ar maidin go dtiocfaidh an tAire, an Teachta Phil Hogan, isteach le labhairt faoi an muirir teallaigh - an household charge - inniu.
I raised the issue of the household charge on three occasions. It was very interesting, and I welcome the expression by Senators O'Neill and Harte of interest in the Six Counties. I too join in calling for that debate and I ask the Leader whether the letter has been forwarded to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister inviting them to address the Houses of the Oireachtas. This would be very appropriate. Senators on the Government side see the merit of such an invitation. A frank and open debate on the Northern Ireland economy would be very useful to Members on all sides.
I take this opportunity to commend the representatives from the Centres for Independent Living on their presentation to Members in the audio visual room. When we have argy-bargies on the promissory notes and the European banks, those who cannot stand up for themselves tend to be forgotten. The harrowing presentation on the lives of people with disabilities would break your heart. The most telling statement I heard during the day was that of a man who said that due to the cutbacks in the carer's allowance, he has a carer three days a week, but that he has cystic fibrosis seven days a week.
I call on the Leader for a full, frank and wide-ranging debate on the disability sector and how the payments to the banking sector are affecting the people on the ground who need our help and cannot be forgotten. There are cutbacks in occupational and speech therapy, personal assistants and so on. We cannot lose sight of this important issue.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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It is welcome that the debt repayment of €3.1 billion is being rolled over. We can congratulate the Minister for Finance on his hard work and skilful negotiations. I agree with Senator Mooney that it is not a cause for celebration.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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We have a hard task ahead. This will be a lean year for the people. I congratulate everybody who is rowing in, including the politicians, in keeping the ship steady. We are gaining the respect of the international community, but that will not put food on the table. Nevertheless, it is a welcome development. I hope it is followed by more of the same so that we can release some money into the retail economy.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cullinane is saying "Hear, hear." I thought I might be talking to Sinn Féin.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday's debate was helpful in some ways.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I join with others in calling for a debate on these issues. One would have to welcome the developments in the past number of days but the reality is, not to take from the negotiating ability of the Government team, whom we support, Europe has thrown us a bone, Europe owes us big time. As I said before, the first skirmish of the international financial crisis happened on Irish soil. The people, through no fault of their own, were forced to accept austerity measures and take on the cost of the bank guarantees and very prohibitive measures that nobody would ordinarily set out to implement. As a result, in my view and history will prove it correct, the euro was saved. For that reason, Europe was entitled to give the concession on the promissory note. As Senator Walsh has rightly pointed out this is only the beginning of a larger process that must be pursued vigorously. In that context whether it is the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, or whoever from whatever party, he or she will have the full support of all Members. The reality is that there is an unsustainable level of debt and, by agreement, there must be a concession given to the reality that there is too much debt and that issue will have to be addressed.
The point was well made by Senator Hayden that there is also a responsibility on the Government to act in the interests of the people who are suffering in mortgage debt. The Houses are united on that issue. In fact, the House took the lead in putting forward solutions on the issue and continues to do so yet, today we see the arrogance of the banking community in Ireland. I do not accept Senator Paul Coghlan's assessment that it is purely in the interest of the shareholder and that our shareholder interests in the banks dictates that there must be draconian measures.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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When the banks were making millions of euro the reality was that people did not have to face prohibitive charges such as those being proposed. Rather than the back stairs in the Department of Finance,so often referred to by Senator Barrett, exclusively for the use of the senior bankers and that shareholder bottom line, it is time the House united in demanding that the Minister summon the banks and the regulator and tells them they are instruments of their state. We must use our shareholder status to ensure the people are not kicked when they are down in the way the banks have continually done, despite the great support given by the people and the Houses.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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There are public interest directors, one of whom is related to the Senator.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Obviously Senator Darragh O'Brien and 12 or more others mentioned the promissory notes. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, had always given an indication that he would inform the Dáil of any development concerning the payment of the promissory notes and he did so yesterday. The Government has been involved for a long period in technical discussions on reducing the burden of debt associated with the recapitalisation of the banks. The focus has been on the promissory note agreement put in place to fund the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly Anglo Irish Bank. The discussions with the EU authorities on the general issue continue but we are negotiating on the basis that the €3.06 billion cash instalment due from the Minister to the IBRC on 31 March 2012, under the terms of the IBRC promissory notes, can be settled by the delivery of a long-term Government bond. The details of the arrangement have still to be worked out.
I reiterate the statement from the Minister last night when he said that discussions are still ongoing. However, the obvious use of a Government bond would certainly have a positive cash flow benefit for the State as it would free up €3.06 billion cash that was required to pay the promissory notes. As stated by Senator Mooney, it should be borne in mind that even with the use of the Government bond to make the promissory note payment, the State still has a very sizeable Exchequer deficit of public spending over revenue of €15.8 billion in 2012. If we want an economy that encourages and supports job creation we need to continue the path of closing the gap over a period. That is the aim of the Government and what it intends to do.
Senator O'Brien also raised the question of the household charge which has been raised on several occasions. I understand that 35,000 people paid it yesterday. The number of people paying the charge has been increasing and I am sure that will continue up to the closing date of 31 March. The Minister has said there will be no change to the deadline. Application forms can be collected from An Post but payment cannot be made through An Post.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I believe that to do that An Post is seeking €5 on every €100 paid. However, there are many mechanisms through which it can be paid, including to the local authority up to 31 March.
The issue of special advisers was raised by the Senator. I do not think any special adviser should be paid more than the salary of a TD.
Senator Bacik and many others raised the issue of the Mahon report. It would be premature to comment on it. There is a need for a time of reflection on the document we all received this morning. Perhaps, at a later stage, as requested, we can have a debate on the report.
Senators Mary Ann O'Brien and Quinn raised the question of hoteliers being forced to pay copyright for their guests. That is ludicrous and cannot go ahead. We need to be competitive and anything that impedes that competitiveness should be stopped. It is a matter that I am sure the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, will take into consideration when I draw it to his attention.
Senator O'Brien also raised the question of a single web portal for research and development funding. That is an excellent suggestion and should be worked on. We have been speaking about one-stop shops for business and so on. That is absolutely necessary where research and development funding is concerned.
Senator Moloney and others raised the issue of AIB. I agree with the sentiments of many Senators that the requirement to have €2,500 in a personal account is farcical and disgraceful.
As Senator Paul Coghlan said, the State has invested €21 billion in AIB. It is important that the bank is run on a sustainable basis to yield a return to the taxpayer but there are proper ways of doing business. I have been informed that 40% of the personal account customers will still qualify for free banking in AIB. The qualifying people include student accounts, graduate accounts, and advantage customers over 60. I agree that the requirement to have €2,500 in a personal account should be reversed.
Senator Norris asked if No. 17, Privacy Bill 2010, will be published? I agree that it should be published.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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We will accept that amendment to the Order of Business. I agree with the Senator that the 1950 practices in Holland were absolutely barbaric. In any civilised society things like that should not happen. An apology should certainly issue from the Dutch authorities, the church and anybody involved in those barbaric practices.
David Norris (Independent)
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I thank the Leader. I appreciate that.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Paschal Mooney asked if the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht could be invited to the House for a debate on jobs in the communications industry. I will certainly raise the matter with the Minister.
Senator Feargal Quinn asked about the plight of an Irish citizen imprisoned in Sri Lanka for the past four years. I have details from the Senator on the matter. He raised the issue with the Tánaiste in the House a few weeks ago. I will raise the matter with the Tánaiste again.
Senator Aideen Hayden raised the plight in which many people in mortgage arrears find themselves and asked for a further debate on the Keane report. I will try to arrange for an early debate on the matter. I under the Taoiseach is chairing a Cabinet sub-committee to deal with the whole area of mortgage arrears. Hopefully, we will have word on that issue soon.
Senator Cullinane raised the issue of promissory notes again and there seems to be a call from Sinn Féin not to pay our debts to anybody. Yesterday he mentioned that Sinn Féin was not advocating that people should not pay their household charge. When I spoke to Deputy Mattie McGrath last night he said the Senator was in Carrick-on-Suir, on a platform, when he advocated that people should not pay so I do not know.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It is unfair to take somebody else's word.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I have never called on people not to pay the household charge.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mullins asked for a debate on the banking sector.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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It is a cheap shot from the Leader.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to continue, without interruption.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I did not. I took part in a protest but I did not ask anybody to do anything. It was a broad protest about cuts.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The Leader knows that he made a cheap shot.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mullins asked about moneylenders. They should be regulated. The discussion on moneylenders can be taken in conjunction with a debate on banking. We all realise that many people are in grave difficulties at present. Going to moneylenders will not solve the problem for many people but some are forced to go to such lengths.
Senator Colm Burke had a question on junior doctors that he raised with the Minister responsible previously and I will continue to raise the matter with him.
Senator Ó Clochartaigh raised the question of the plight of people with disabilities. The centres of independent living gave a presentation in the AV room here yesterday. I will arrange for a debate. We have had a debate on disabilities but I am sure that the Minister responsible will be willing to come to the House again.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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What about the Deputy First Minister and First Minister?
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Two amendments have been proposed to the Order of Business. Senator Darragh O'Brien has moved an amendment, "That a debate on the extension of the deadline and the methods of payments for the household tax to be taken today". Is the amendment being pressed?
The Seanad Divided:
For the motion: 16 (Sean Barrett, David Cullinane, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Paschal Mooney, David Norris, Trevor Ó Clochartaigh, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Darragh O'Brien, Ned O'Sullivan, Averil Power, Feargal Quinn, Kathryn Reilly, Jim Walsh, Mary White, Diarmuid Wilson)
Against the motion: 28 (Ivana Bacik, Paul Bradford, Terry Brennan, Colm Burke, Deirdre Clune, Paul Coghlan, Martin Conway, Maurice Cummins, Jim D'Arcy, John Gilroy, Jimmy Harte, Aideen Hayden, Fidelma Healy Eames, James Heffernan, Imelda Henry, Lorraine Higgins, Caít Keane, John Kelly, Denis Landy, Marie Maloney, Tony Mulcahy, Michael Mullins, Catherine Noone, Mary Ann O'Brien, Pat O'Neill, Tom Shehan, John Whelan, Katherine Zappone)
Tellers: Tá, Senators Trevor Ó Clochartaigh and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Ivana Bacik and Paul Coghlan..
Recommendation declared lost.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, "That No. 17 be taken before No. 1." The Leader proposes to accept this amendment. Is that agreed? Agreed.