Seanad debates
Wednesday, 14 March 2012
Order of Business
10:30 am
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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The Order of Business 1is No. 1, statements on the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 4 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes. I ask all those interested to take part in the debate. Private Members' business shall be No. 19, motion No. 8, to be taken at 4 p.m. and conclude not later than 6 p.m.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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With regard to statements on the fiscal compact, our group, as agreed, submitted a list of speakers to try to ensure Members would be given additional time if there were not enough speakers, rather than being cut off after five minutes. Will the Deputy Leader check the position following the Order of Business, as it might be possible to facilitate Members in this way? The Oireachtas Library and Research Service did a very good job last week in its presentation. We have submitted the names of eight or nine speakers. Rather than stopping speakers after five minutes and having the debate finish early, we should ensure there will be a proper debate. I would appreciate it if the Deputy Leader considered this request.
Every week I raise the issue of distressed mortgages. One in seven mortgages on a principal private residence is now in arrears for over 30 days. I have asked every week since last November when the Government will publish the mortgage arrears strategy - I am actually boring myself on the issue at this stage. Prior to the budget the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, came to the House and said the strategy would be published before the budget. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, told my colleague, Deputy Michael McGrath, in the Dáil that he would have it published before Christmas. It is now the middle of March and nothing has been done. The Personal Insolvency Bill will be law by late autumn at the earliest, which is not sufficient. The Deputy Leader will say we have discussed the issue in committee, which is all well and good, and I appreciate work has to be done. However, the Bill does not go far enough because it leaves the final say with the banks. We have published our own Bills and the one which would have protected the family home was defeated by the Government by three votes. Another, at Second Stage in the Dáil, proposes the setting up a debt settlement office and taking power from the banks to make the decisions on what is appropriate for a mortgagee. Time is passing. As every week passes, more and more people are getting into difficulty with their mortgage. As for passing on the ECB rate cut of more than two months ago, I note the Government strong-armed AIB, which has the lowest rate in the market, to pass it on but Bank of Ireland got away with passing on 0.14% of a combined rate reduction of 0.5%. The Government is doing nothing for people in mortgage arrears and this matter is far too serious. I seek a cast-iron commitment this morning that the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Brian Hayes, will come into this House next week to discuss this issue. Unless such a commitment is forthcoming, Fianna Fáil will oppose the Order of Business every day until I find out on behalf of those outside this Chamber what the Government intends to do for those who are losing their homes.
I will conclude by referring to a case reported in yesterday's edition of The Irish Times. The courts, in respect of €50,000 of arrears owed by a man who had a stroke and who could not work since 2008, granted a repossession order on a principal private residence. The Government is sitting by and doing nothing.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes should come into the House and if he fails to do so, I will oppose the Order of Business every single day. I will disrupt the business of this House until this happens because the people have a right to know what the Government intends to do to ensure they can be safe in the knowledge that the roof over their heads will not be taken away from them and they will not be made homeless.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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On the question of speakers on the debate on the stability treaty, which will follow the Order of Business, Fine Gael has submitted between seven and nine speakers and I am sure the Deputy Leader will respond further in this regard.
I understand and appreciate Deputy Darragh O'Brien's concern about mortgage arrears, which is shared by all Members. However, it is wrong to state the Government has done nothing as this matter is top of its agenda. It is deeply committed to the key recommendations of the Keane report and a new Cabinet committee, which has been established to deal with the matter, will meet tomorrow.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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The Keane report has been available to the Government since September.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Moreover, the Leader will confirm the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, probably will be in the House shortly to deal with the Finance Bill. In response to the Senator's comments, as I often have stated in this House, I advocate a little bit more caution and less haste in this regard.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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There is no time left on this issue.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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A little less conversation, a little more action.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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-----and the key recommendations are being implemented.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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There is no time. Does the Senator want to tell this to the man who had his house repossessed yesterday for arrears of €50,000?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Paul Coghlan, without interruption.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Tell him the Government is doing something.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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As the Cathaoirleach would tell Members, they cannot get into individual cases. This is a question of policy and of policy implementation.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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There is a lack of policy and action.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It is a matter that the Government has in hand. It has established a new Cabinet committee, which will meet tomorrow on the very issue. All Members are aware of the Government's commitment to the recommendations of the Keane report. I do not think the Senator-----
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps he will support my call for the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, to come into the House.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy Leader will appreciate, I am not anxious to bother her and I am sure the Leader will more fully and comprehensively deal with this issue. Senator Darragh O'Brien should not be overly concerned, as the matter is very much in hand.
Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I wish to raise the issue of the Fry Model Railway Museum, which previously had been located in Malahide Castle. It was a tourist attraction and during my time as a board member of Bord Fáilte, we voted some money for it. It has been shut down and the plan is to move it to Busáras. I seek clarification from the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar. The exhibit was a bequest to the State and was funded on that basis by Bord Fáilte. People are strongly of the view that it should remain at its former location at Malahide Castle. It is part of a tourism complex encompassing Malahide Castle, Newbridge House and Ardgillan Castle. There must be greater respect for such donations than allowing them to be moved around at the behest of people within the bureaucracy.
Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I do not know the reason it left Malahide Castle, as it was an attraction there. The locals definitely seek its retention and according to Monday's edition of the Irish Independent, Fáilte Ireland will make a decision in the coming weeks as to the best location for the exhibit. However, there is a strong view that its best location is where it was. It should not have been moved and it is part of the development of tourism through the Fingal area instead of concentrating everything in the city centre. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport should clarify the position quickly and should indicate a preference that it should remain located in Malahide.
Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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First, I refer to the news of the deaths of the children in the tunnel in Switzerland. Members should consider the implications for the families and I pass on my sympathies to the Belgian ambassador to Ireland, the Belgian community in Ireland and to the Belgian families involved in this tragedy. Most families here have had their children go on skiing holidays to Europe and to wake up to such news this morning puts many things into perspective. One can talk about fiscal treaties and whatever but Members should reflect on this news in their own way.
On the household charge, a Donegal website this morning contains a claim by a solicitor to the effect this charge is not sound in law. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, should come into the House and put the legal implications on the record because there is much misinformation abroad. A campaign is under way in my native County Donegal to stop people from paying this charge, the revenue from which ultimately will return to Donegal County Council to provide services. The solicitor concerned is unnamed but I have an idea as to his identity. He is telling people not to pay because the charge is not sound in law, which is tantamount to subversion. The Minister should clarify the legal implications for those who do not pay and who are being advised not to pay by irresponsible people within the community. The Minister, Deputy Hogan, should clarify the legalities of the household charge.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Deputy Leader to arrange for an early debate in respect of the situation in the Middle East. Regular debates were held on the subject during the last Seanad but, to my mind, Members have not had a recent debate in this regard. I raise this issue in particular with regard to the situation in Gaza where 25 Palestinians were murdered or slaughtered by the force of the Israeli army and air force. While I acknowledge that approximately 200 missiles were sent from Gaza into southern Israel and that one action leads to another in that part of the world, the force used in this regard certainly was excessive. I note and welcome the arrangement of a temporary ceasefire. The situation in Gaza, Syria and Iran is grave at present and, in this context, I note the re-establishment of the Friends of Palestine in the Oireachtas group, of which I am the convener. I am very pleased by the number of people who have involved themselves in this organisation, which works to ensure there will be a two-state solution of Israel and Palestine.
I commend the excellent work of the leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputy Martin, who was the first foreign minister to visit Gaza. I also compliment the work of the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, who is continuing Deputy Martin's work for peace in the Middle East and who is doing an excellent job in this regard. I ask them to continue their work because, while the setbacks that occur so regularly in that particular region are frustrating, one must not despair.
We must continue to work to bring about a solution in the Middle East. Such a solution must primarily and fundamentally be about the establishment of the state of Palestine alongside Israel in peace and harmony. All other conflicts arise from that issue, which must be resolved. The position in Syria also is extremely grave and I note the entire region, including Iran, is extremely volatile. This House has a proud record in respect of the Middle East. Ireland is an honest broker and has no vested interest in the region. From the outset, we have been there as peacemakers and our troops have served in the Lebanon, on the Golan Heights and elsewhere in that region. Consequently, I again ask the Deputy Leader to consider arranging for an early debate in this regard. I must condemn the activities of the State of Israel in respect of the assassination of 25 people in Gaza.
Michael Comiskey (Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise the issue of local improvement schemes, LIS, that have been suspended and I ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, to reconsider them. Such schemes are operated by county councils in different regions and only cost approximately €5 million. They entail the annual repair of roads and boreens to farmhouses and those who live off the main road. Each council area might carry out two or three such schemes each year. As already stated, this only cost €5 million. It would be a great help to the people in the areas to which I refer if the scheme were to continue. I will be making contact with the Minister in respect of this matter and I ask the Leader to do likewise in order that we might get the decision reversed.
David Norris (Independent)
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I welcome the fact that the House is due to debate the fiscal compact treaty later. This is an appropriate day on which to consider this matter, particularly in light of the comments made by that Finnish Alice in Wonderland, Mr. Olli Rehn, who, perhaps unwisely as I have discovered, uttered the Latin phrase "pacta sunt servanda" which, as everyone is aware, roughly translates as "Croppies lie down". Mr. Rehn made his comments at a time when, most appropriately, the Spaniards are being allowed to vary the terms in respect of their budget deficit.
Will the Leader indicate whether it would be possible, during our debate on media issues with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, to take account of a very interesting article by Fergus Finlay which appeared in this morning's edition of the Irish Examiner under the headline "Any inquiry into presidency vote should cover all media coverage"? Part of the final paragraph of the article is worth noting because it states "if a public enquiry is necessary into one corner of the coverage of the presidential election, maybe it would be healthy if the motivation and methods of the entire coverage was explored under oath by an eminent judge". That is a very reasonable comment and I would like it to be extended to the coverage of media generally, particularly in light of the Leveson inquiry in Britain at which significant witnesses indicated that their own newspapers had extended exactly the same practices used in the latter jurisdiction to their Irish editions. The Minister refused to appoint a representative to protect the interests of Irish citizens in this case, refused to introduce privacy legislation - I will be taking matters into my own hands during Private Members' time on Wednesday of next week - and refused to hold an inquiry. I want to see some action in respect of this matter, particularly as the rights of citizens are being systematically violated, rather than being obliged to listen to people on the other side of the House uttering a load of old blather and making pusillanimous statements.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I support the call by Senator Darragh O'Brien to the effect that the Government be asked to speed up the response to issues relating to mortgages and the mortgage arrears implementation strategy. I am of the view that said response is imminent but there is a need to get it into the public domain. There are a number of reasons for which people are obliged to surrender their homes. Everyone will agree that the massive and unsustainable property boom which occurred in this country is a factor in this regard. At this point, however, we must look forward. The Keane report is extremely important because it deals with those who might wish to surrender ownership of their homes to either their local councils or the banks and then continue to live in them. More is required in this regard.
Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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We need a strategy for those who wish to remain in their homes and who also wish to continue to own them. I assure Senator Darragh O'Brien that the committee established by the Taoiseach in this regard represents his commitment to dealing with the matter in question. If it were possible, I would prefer if the Leader sent a message to the Government indicating that the Seanad wishes this issue to be dealt with in a speedy manner.
David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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The comments made by Olli Rehn yesterday have made it clear to many people in this State that there is one rule for almost every other country in Europe and a completely different one for Ireland. In recent times, Germany, France and Greece have routinely opted out of arrangements that were agreed. Olli Rehn was speaking in the context of the promissory note relating to the former Anglo Irish Bank and stated that it must be paid on 31 March next. It seems that the Government is negotiating on the margins of this issue. It has referred to a potential cut in the interest rate and a possible restructuring of the debt under which we would pay it back over a longer period. However, we must recall what is going to be the true cost of this debt to the Irish people. The total amount is €31 billion, which must be repaid to the ECB. The total interest repayments will come to €12 billion. Therefore, the total amount to be repaid to the ECB will be €43 billion. We will be obliged to borrow the money to pay off that debt. The estimates provided by the Minister for Finance indicate that the overall repayment costs will be in the region of €70 billion.
If we manage to obtain a restructuring of the debt, meaning that it will be paid back over a longer period, we could end up paying back even more money as a result of the interest we will be charged. What the Government should be doing is seeking to have the debt written down. It must be remembered that, when in opposition, the parties currently in government made a number of statements. For example, the Tánaiste, Deputy Gilmore, stated that it would be Labour's way or Frankfurt's way. The Tánaiste made a name for himself as an Opposition leader who railed against paying money back to bondholders and others.
It is in Ireland's best interests not to pay back the debt to which I refer. The IMF recently stated that the debt in question is unsustainable. If that is the case, then it must be written off or written down. The promissory note payment is due on 31 March next, which is also the deadline by which citizens must pay the household charge. The promissory note payment represents ten times what will be collected in the form of the household charge. It is not the case that certain politicians have called on people not to pay the charge. My party has not advocated that people should not pay. We have not made a call in that regard. It is quite obvious, however, that people are taking the decision not to pay, particularly when one considers that only 15% of citizens have paid the charge.
It is the height of madness that on the day on which people are due to pay the household charge, this country is going to hand over a further €3.1 billion to the ECB. The insanity of this is obvious, particularly when one considers the position in which we currently find ourselves. I call on the Leader to again ask the Minister for Finance to come before the House to discuss this very important issue. We need to obtain a suspension of the payment to which I refer and we also require an indication from the Government with regard to what exactly is being negotiated. Mixed messages are coming out all of the time but from what I understand, we are not negotiating for a debt write-down. I am of the view that, fundamentally, this is wrong.
Mary Moran (Labour)
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I wish to support the efforts of the Irish Network Against Racism, members of which are in the House this morning to launch European Week Against Racism ahead of the International Day Against Racism on Tuesday, 21 March. The Europe-wide message for this year is that people should speak out against racism. The Irish Network Against Racism comprises a national network of organisations that work collectively to highlight and address racism and to foster a vision of a society in which everyone can participate equally and that is free from racism, xenophobia and related discrimination. In this country alone, racist violence and crime account for 75% of racist incidents reported to NGOs in 2011. These incidents can have a deeper effect on the individual and can have an impact on the entire community. I call on the Leader to make time available for a debate on racism and racist-fuelled crime in Ireland in advance of the International Day Against Racism.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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On previous occasions I have referred to the democratic deficit, not only in Europe but also in Leinster House. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on statutory instruments. I raised this matter at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Leader is aware of previous comments I made in respect of the former Joint Committee on European Scrutiny's finding to the effect that 75% of laws made in Ireland in any given year come about as a result of Ministers signing statutory instruments into law. The difficulty is that statutory instruments are not laid before the Houses or referred to the relevant committees prior to their being signed. As a result, there is no scrutiny by legislators. These instruments are just signed by the relevant Ministers and they then take effect. There is no way the democratically elected Members of this House can argue against statutory instruments once they have been put into effect. There is a 21-day period in which to make objections but I am sure everyone present would agree that it is wholly inappropriate that we receive statutory instruments after the fact. The Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has given a commitment to the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade that statutory instruments will be sent to Members after they are signed. I welcome the news that the Chairs of the various committees will come together, as a result of the concerns I have raised, to consider how the Members of this House will obtain access to statutory instruments prior to their being signed.
There is a large ongoing campaign relating to Joseph Kony, the head of the Lord's Resistance Army, which has come about because of the Invisible Children organisation. There are a number of concerns about various aspects of the campaign but there is no concern about the fact that this man is on top of the world's criminal courts' most wanted lists. He has 30,000 or 40,000 children for use as child soldiers and is responsible for some of the most appalling crimes. I know the Deputy Leader has a great interest in human rights and I ask her to organise a debate on Joseph Kony.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It would be helpful for the Deputy Leader to ask the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, to come to the House to give a statement on the schools building fund list announced on Monday. People in many schools are upset, angry and frustrated. They do not know why they were not granted funding when there was an expectation that they would, and they do not know why others were granted funding. There are questions such as whether the schools in question will now have to wait for five years for funding. What helpful advice can we now give these schools? In particular I am thinking of Gaelscoil Mhic Amhlaigh in Knocknacarra, Maree national school in Oranmore, Clifden community school and many others throughout the country.
We had a very useful debate yesterday relating to Seachtain na Gaeilge and I, along with others, raised the issue of the cost of sending our children to the Gaeltacht. I have two children I would like to send to the Gaeltacht this summer and both would benefit from it. The cost will be at least €900 each, which is too expensive. I will now probably have to decide between which of the two children to send. I put the issue to the Minister yesterday, as did my colleague, Senator D'Arcy. Are there other creative ways of making the cost of the Gaeltacht more affordable to families at this time? I know it is the right way for children to learn Irish; it is the tumoideachas or immersion education. It is a way for children to get excitement, enjoyment and a love of the language. Is that not what we want? I would be delighted if, as a result of my call today, the likes of Conradh na Gaeilge, na mná tí and the Department would come together and make the Gaeltacht more affordable for our children.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am very glad the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, has published the 60 submissions received during the public consultation processes on regulatory system options for lobbying. It strikes me this morning that perhaps the Spanish have better lobbyists at EU level than we do, unless Commissioner Rehn's "No" for now is just a gateway to a greater "Yes" later. He would want to be mindful of the time because people are watching those kinds of responses from our European colleagues and will do so with great care in the run-up to the referendum on the fiscal compact treaty.
On the subject of lobbying, there was an interesting submission from the Public Relations Consultants Association of Ireland, which indicated there may be occasions when individuals and organisations want to gain contact with officials or politicians at a high level on a discreet basis in the national interest. That may start alarm bells in some people's minds but transparency should always be a key requirement where lobbyists interact with the political system and decision makers. An example is given of where a foreign direct investor may want discreet contact about a possible decision to select Ireland over another country for a project. Although that sounds reasonable, we need to be careful of self-serving arguments in favour of an unregulated lobbying system.
It would be helpful for the Minister to come to the House, tease out the issue and hear from us of the many complexities which exist around lobbying, particularly how one defines a lobbyist and what is appropriate contact between lobbyists and politicians. I see it has been proposed, for example, that politicians and public servants should have a two-year cooling off period after leaving office before being allowed to interact with the public service on behalf of organisations where lobbying is involved.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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There is another issue on which I would like to engage with the Minister. As politicians we are not allowed take donations from abroad, which is understandable, as that provision is concerned with not skewing the political system. There are cases where charities and other civil society organisations receive what are sometimes large sums of money from foreign sources and benefactors. That may be very welcome in the funding of a university by Mr. Chuck Feeney, for example, but what would happen if the funding was involved with the children's rights referendum on advancing a particular policy change?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is that a question for the Deputy Leader?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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There may be strong arguments for a policy change but would it not be a good idea to bring in the Minister to have a discussion on the lobbying issues? I would like to tease out the particular issue about when and in what circumstances it is appropriate for organisations or individuals in Ireland to accept foreign donations, particularly if they advance a specific political, legislative or referendum goal. I would be grateful for a response from the Government.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I listened to Senator O'Brien earlier, who rightly reminded us of the people who have lost their houses or the roof over their heads. We should use the time we have for reflection in the Seanad to think about who caused such people to lose the roof over their heads in the first instance and do something about it.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Well done. The Senator is on message. That will solve many problems.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is there a question for the Deputy Leader?
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Healy Eames was able to criticise the Minister.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Keane, is there a question for the Deputy Leader?
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Yes. The Freedom of Information Act became law in 2003 and there is a policy from this Government that it will be changed so as to revert to an openness that was evident prior to 2003. The Government is working on it at the moment. I ask the Minister to come to the House and we will legislate to restore freedom of information to what it was before it was undermined by the previous Government. Its remit will be extended to public bodies, including the administrative side of the Garda Síochána, subject to security exceptions. The Freedom of Information and Ombudsman Acts will be amended to ensure that all statutory bodies, including RTE, as noted by Senator Norris, and bodies significantly funded from the public purse are covered.
Work is ongoing in this regard and I heard the Ombudsman say on the airwaves that contact was being made with her office. We should have a debate in this House on freedom of information proposals and what we, as a Seanad, can add to the debate. I ask the Deputy Leader to bring the Minister before us for the debate. We do not want to go back to "Yes, Prime Minister", where Sir Humphrey said one can have openness or government but not both. I believe we can and the Government shares that belief.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Notwithstanding the fact that we will use our Private Members' time to deal with some of these issues, I join others in calling for a debate on the inaction in mortgage arrears. Leaving aside a cheap political stunt of reflecting on the causes of people finding themselves in mortgage arrears, the record of the House will show that nobody has a sense of ownership on this issue, and nobody has exclusivity in putting forward solutions. Nevertheless, the balance in favour of solutions being put forward would steeply be in my favour and others, when I was on the Government side of the House as much as this side.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Senator's party did nothing when it was on this side of the House.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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What would the Senator say to Chancellor Merkel?
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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There are many reasons for failure but there are no excuses. We have had the Hugh Cooney report on mortgage arrears, the Keane report on mortgage arrears, the programme for Government and a Cabinet sub-committee but the reality is clear. I often quote Senator Barrett, who is in the House, who mentioned the metaphorical back stairs in the Department of Finance that seems to be exclusively open to the bankers. This approach is also alive and well in the Central Bank. Instead of pushing forward much needed tangible solutions to the problem of mortgage arrears, many of which have been proposed by Senators, including on this side, the Central Bank is set to further weaken the hand of people in mortgage difficulty by changing the code of conduct on mortgage arrears and allowing banks to contact people who are struggling with their mortgages more than three times per month, as is currently provided for in the code. This is a ridiculous proposal.
Senator Coghlan stated that more caution and less haste is needed on this issue. What is needed is less conversation and more action. We have a silent crisis in which families are being consistently overlooked in favour of big bankers. This needs to cease. Senator Keane may not like to hear it but no side has exclusivity on this matter or owns the ground on which we are to put forward solutions.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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We have a deficit in respect of the solutions being proposed and acted on by the Government. The Family Home Bill 2011 was voted down in this House by only three votes. If the three other Senators from my area had supported the legislation, it would have been enacted in law and the courts would now be in a position to take greater steps to help people in mortgage arrears. I ask for more action and less rhetoric on this issue. The Government should show support for the families who voted for it. Rather than neglecting them in their hour of need, it should acknowledge the silent crisis at work and take appropriate action.
Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I agree to an extent with Senator Darragh O'Brien that priority should be given to addressing the problem of mortgage arrears. As someone who wears both a political and legal hat, every week I encounter cases of people who want to address their mortgage difficulties but do not have an avenue for doing so. While it is important to implement legislation to address this issue, we must do so carefully and strike a balance because this is a difficult and complex area.
It is important to consider the causes of the current problem. Senator Mullen referred to lobbying and noted that the construction industry appeared to be running previous Governments. Rather than Governments deciding policy, outside interests appeared to decide policy, which was not in the best interests of the country. We must take correct decisions when addressing the issue of mortgage arrears and ensure we establish a proper structure to deal with it.
The other issue we must address is the large number of people who can afford to get on the property ladder but cannot secure the funding they require to do so. As recently as this week, I was contacted by an individual who is unable to get rid of one of two properties because buyers are not available. Money must be made available to those who wish to buy property if we are to make progress on this issue. In the past 12 months, the Government's priority has been to achieve stability and it has done so. It must now give priority to addressing the issue of mortgage arrears in a balanced manner in the next six months. We need to arrive at a solution that allows people to move on with their lives and focus again on their families and jobs. This would benefit all of us. If necessary, we should initiate the relevant legislation in this House.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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That has been done but the Bill was voted down.
Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, the legislation in question did not stand up constitutionally, as the Senator's party was advised.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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It could have been amended by the Government.
John Crown (Independent)
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I echo some of the comments made by my university colleague, Senator Mullen, on lobbying, an issue about which I am particularly troubled. This area requires legislation, oversight and intervention. I wish to ensure it is applied in all the areas where it will make the greatest difference. On a number of occasions since entering the House, I have had representations made to me by various interest groups on behalf of a number of organisations, including charities and commercial entities. On a few occasions, those who made the representations were accompanied by people who were obviously paid public relations consultants, that is, persons who were not expert in the area where the particular policy was being advanced. On such occasions, I have queried the legitimacy of the presence of such persons at the meetings. Without being rude, I have, on a few occasions, told them I was not particularly interested in their presence and if people wanted to advance an agenda to me which had some legitimacy, they should do so without the intermediation of somebody without expertise in the area. I am referring essentially to hired guns coming to the House to do work on behalf of others.
I ask the deputy Leader to ensure Senators are given an opportunity to have some input into the debate on proposed legislation in this area. I will cite one precedent in this respect. In recent years, there has been considerable discussion of the problems caused by the banks. Although I believe the banks acted illegally in some cases, immorally in a number of cases and stupidly in many cases, I also believe they acted rationally at all times if one assumes they were trying to maximise short-term profits. The persons who bear proximate and greatest responsibility for the economic collapse were those who were responsible for ensuring things of this nature did not occur, namely, the politicians and officials involved in the regulation of banking and other sectors.
The same type of logic could be applied to lobbyists if one understands that their sole purpose is to make money, which they do by advancing their cause. They behave rationally and while they may be former politicians, they still have the rights of private citizens when making contact with individuals. We need to regulate the lobbying industry which requires a high level of transparency. We also need to ensure every meeting between a hired gun and politician or official is minuted and subject to transparency. However, we also need another code of conduct for the politicians who deal with lobbyists. It must be transparent because it is the responsibility of politicians to act responsibly and adopt a sceptical view of the input of non-expert public relations professionals who are coming into the House to do nothing more than peddle their personal influence, former political affiliations and social contacts to influence public policy. For this reason, when we regulate the lobbying industry we must also ensure that on the flipside of such regulations is a set of a recommendations on how politicians should behave when dealing with mercenaries of this type.
Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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As someone who has criticised "Prime Time" in the House, I congratulate the programme and the wonderful lady, Lorraine Mulvey, who was interviewed by Miriam O'Callaghan on it last night. Ms Mulvey spoke out during a wonderful interview and did a great service to people who have suffered abuse. Her courage and the absence of bitterness or rancour in her words will be admired by many people. She stated that waiving her anonymity greatly helped her in dealing with the horrendous abuse she suffered at the hands of her father. I hope she will give courage to other people in similar circumstances to waive their anonymity and speak out. Ms Mulvey did a tremendous job in highlighting the fact that a great deal of help is available. She was particularly appreciative of the assistance and support given to her by a member of the Garda Síochána. We sometimes forget the wonderful work gardaí do on behalf of the community and help they provide to individuals.
The point Ms Mulvey so eloquently conveyed was that a great deal of free help and support is available. All of us should support organisations which help victims of abuse, including the Rape Crisis Centre and the CARI Foundation. Having watched the interview with Ms Mulvey last night, I could not allow this opportunity to pass without paying tribute to a wonderful woman and the great work she has done in highlighting a major problem in society. I hope many people in similar circumstances will take courage from her and what she has done for society.
Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday, I attended the official opening by the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, of a refurbished convent national school in Ballyjamesduff, County Cavan. During his excellent address to the guests who were invited to attend, he pointed out the advantages of adult and further education to the communities in which these centres were located. I call on the Deputy Leader to arrange a debate on the importance of adult and further education, in particular Youthreach, the back to education initiative, BTEI and the vocational training opportunities scheme, VTOS, which are important aspects of the adult and further education area and which should be addressed as part of the debate.
I join my colleague, Senator MacSharry, in calling on the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, to come to the House to update Members on what I understand is an application by the banks and financial institutions to change the protocol that has been in existence for a short period which allows them to contact people in arrears up to three times per month but no more than that. The number of times they can be contacted should not be increased because, as a result of the credit culture that existed in this country, many people fell into the trap of taking the money being offered to them by these financial institutions. Currently, people are being contacted by banks, credit unions, car hire purchase companies and other financial institutions three times per month, which means a person could be contacted 12 or 14 times per month. It is worth bearing in mind that in regard to that contact three times per month, it means the person contacting can physically speak to the individual three times per month. It does not take into account that they could be leaving messages for the person three times a day, writing to them three times a week or e-mailing them ten times a day. That must be taken into consideration. People are being persecuted-----
Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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-----and driven to do all sorts of things by financial institutions. Those institutions should not be allowed increase the number of times they can contact people. I call on the Deputy Leader to contact the Minister for Finance and the Financial Regulator in this regard.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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On Monday afternoon I received a telephone call from a constituent who is a mortgage customer of Permanent TSB. This person lost his job and had to go America for a number of months last year to enable him meet his repayments. During the period he was in America, his mortgage changed from being fixed to variable, which meant instead of paying a rate of 3.5%, he was now required to pay a rate of 6.2%. When he returned, he realised that and engaged with Permanent TSB, which gave him no hearing on the matter, in spite of the fact that he had honoured his commitment and found himself in the position where he had to travel abroad to get the resources to pay his mortgage. That his mortgage almost doubled because Permanent TSB would not engage with him or leave him on the fixed rate is appalling. As far as I am concerned, those people are not bankers. I would describe them as thugs. It is appalling to think that type of thing is still going on here.
I agree with other colleagues who welcomed the fact that the Government is finally facing up to the fact that we must introduce a proper regulated lobbying system. What happened in the past was appalling and a proper, well-thought out registered system of lobbying is appropriate, which would allow a cooling off period and which would allow people to be aware both of what is going on and of the identity of the lobbyists. I caution against over-regulating such as happened in other countries. In America, for example, if one is not registered as a lobbyist there is something wrong. We must have a balance in that regard. I call on the Deputy Leader to facilitate a discussion, perhaps by way of a question and answer session in the House, with experts from abroad in attendance, in order that we would have a full-----
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate on that issue?
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is a full-time lobbyist.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden has been at it for years-----
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Very few are prepared to do the work. That is why we were able to get schools in Roscommon and elsewhere.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Quinn, to proceed without interruption.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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There is bad news for smokers who are football fans because I note that Ukraine is going to introduce a ban on smoking. I mention that because we introduced the smoking ban ten years ago and were the first to do so. I was struck by figures which were published last week and shown to me during this week which highlight that the percentage of the population who smoke has decreased dramatically from the percentage who smoked 50 years ago. This came to mind on foot of the points made by Senators Conway, Mullen and Crown on the power of the lobbyists. When I was in County Waterford some time ago I went to pub which displayed advertisements for tobacco and cigarettes, one of which, dating back to the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s, was to smoke Craven "A" as it was good for one's throat. I was reminded of the power of lobbying that managed to achieve and convince the public that smoking was good for one. We have managed to get beyond that and I am delighted, as Senator Crown has told me, that the percentage of the population who now smoke has fallen to 28% compared with approximately 70% 50 years ago.
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I enjoyed every cigarette I ever smoked.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I do not want to talk about smoking but to talk about lobbying and the discussion we will have on it. I support entirely that we should have that discussion in this House-----
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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-----before a Bill on it is introduced because when it is introduced, particularly if it is introduced in the Dáil, it will be very difficult to get changes made afterwards, regardless of how convincing an argument we make. There is a need for a debate on lobbyists and how we regulate them.
A former Minister with responsibility for the health portfolio, Mary Harney, told me some years ago that she could not get over the number of quangos that reported to the Department and she found on occasion that two different lobbyists, from the same town but representing two different organisations, would get in touch to arrange appointments with the Minister. It seems outrageous there are so many quangos reporting to Departments, which I am sure are being supported in some form or other by State money, and which each employ their own lobbyists.
If we are to address the generation of lobbyists, let us ensure we have a discussion on lobbyists in this House before the legislation is introduced because it is difficult to get changes made afterwards. The points on lobbying made by Senators Crown, Mullen and Conway are exactly right. We can and must do something about it. However, there are occasions when lobbying is very acceptable, something Senator Mullen touched on, and that is fine as long as the lobbying is done above board and there is clarity and openness about it. We should have a discussion on that before we introduce legislation.
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Nancy Pelosi, the most senior woman politician in the United States, gave a speech in Trinity College last night, the theme of which was "e pluribus unum", which means "out of many, one". That is one of chief seals of the United States stemming from the diversity of the different states that came together to work as a whole and to form a wonderful country. She said that society needs more women leaders in all areas and that this is essential for better government. I call for a debate on active ageing, given that Nancy Pelosi is 72 this month and the Minister, Deputy Michael Noonan, is 69 this year. I draw attention to the unfairness that people in the public and private sector have to retire at 65 years of age.
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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My potential Bill in the Seanad was supported by Senator Quinn who felt that if he could participate in this House as a politician, why would other people in society not do so also. The situation is like when people had to give up their jobs when they got married. It is total and utter discrimination. I call for an active and vibrant discussion and plead with Members on the Opposition to support a Fianna Fáil Bill that proposes to abolish mandatory retirement in the public and private sector, as is the practice in the UK and in the North of Ireland.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Go raibh maith agaibh go léir for raising so many issues. The matter of mortgage arrears was raised by Senators Darragh O'Brien, Jim D'Arcy, Cáit Keane, Marc MacSharry, Colm Burke, Diarmuid Wilson and Martin Conway. The common theme that emerged was frustration at the lack of progress, which we all share. Both the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste have stated there has not been as much progress as they would like. As a result they have established the Cabinet sub-committee on mortgage arrears to bring a new focus to the issue and drive further action.
Measures have been adopted as a result of budget 2012 such as expanded mortgage interest relief schemes for first-time buyers who bought during the boom years between 2004 and 2008. Many of them are among the most likely to be in mortgage arrears. There is also the scheme of the personal insolvency Bill, on which members of the justice committee have been very involved in public hearings. We published our report on the Bill on 6 March which makes some robust recommendations for changes to it, particularly to deal with an issue identified by Senator Darragh O'Brien and others, that is, the Bill's lack of teeth and the fact that banks might still effectively be able to deny a resolution because there is no appeals mechanism.
Having heard from all the interested groups, including the bankers and groups such as the Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, which represent those in difficulty with their mortgage, the committee has recommended that an appeals mechanism be provided for in the Bill. We have made a number of other recommendations which have been submitted to the Department of Justice and Equality and I am hopeful the Bill will be strengthened.
It would be no harm to adopt Senator Jim D'Arcy's suggestion, that a message be sent from the Leader of the Seanad to the Taoiseach asking that the process of action to provide assistance for those in mortgage arrears be speeded up. I will certainly pass on this message to the Taoiseach as it would be helpful to do what the Senator has suggested.
Senator Martin Conway raised a particular difficulty of a constituent, while other Senators mentioned the code the conduct, which the banks are seeking to amend. It prescribes that banks should not contact clients more than three times a month. This matter arose during the insolvency hearings before the justice committee. While we are all in agreement that banks should not be permitted to intimidate customers, the reason the restriction is included in the code, we have also heard that people are having difficulty making contact with banks when they wish to make arrangements for the renegotiation of mortgage payments. That difficulty needs to be addressed. I do not know if other Members have heard of this happening. Personally, I would not be in favour of allowing more contact, but we must address this difficulty where there is no reciprocal communication from the banks.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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What about inviting the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, or the Minister for Finance back to the House?
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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My apologies. The Senator also asked about inviting the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, to the House in this context. The debate on the Finance Bill will be held on Wednesday and Thursday of next week and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, and presumably the Minister of State will be here for idt. Both of them will be here for the debate on the Bill-----
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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They will not be here to discuss the issue of mortgage arrears.
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Or new finance available for companies.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I will also speak to the Leader about arranging a specific debate on the issue. Statements on housing are scheduled to be taken on Wednesday, 28 March, following requests from Members on both sides of the House. Clearly, that is the obvious debate in which to raise the issue of mortgage arrears.
Another issue raised by Members concerns the repayment of the promissory notes in the context of Commissioner Olli Rehn's comments which were in Latin. Senator David Norris commented on the use of Latin, while Senator Mary White referred to its use in Nancy Pelosi's speech last night. There has been a great deal of Latin spoken in the House this morning.
Senators David Norris, David Cullinane and Rónán Mullen raised the matter of the repayment of the promissory notes and Commissioner Rehn's comments which were not helpful, as he is not the person who makes the decision, as everybody is aware. The matter is being negotiated with the troika and the negotiations are ongoing, as the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, said. The Government was landed with a very expensive method of financing both Anglo Irish Bank and the Irish Nationwide Building Society via these promissory notes as a result of the disastrous banking policies of the previous Government. The Government continues to work with the troika to explore possible ways to renegotiate or re-engineer the promissory notes to find a less expensive solution. A number of aspects are being examined, for example, replacing them with financial instruments with longer maturity periods. A joint paper is due to be published with the troika covering the options open to the Government. This process is ongoing and the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance have said it will be lengthy. It is not something that will be resolved this month, nor is it expected to be.
Another issue raised by a number of Senators is that of lobbying. The proposals to regulate lobbying have been published toda and include a two year lobbying ban for former politicians. I agree it would be helpful to debate the proposals in the House. This matter was raised by Senators Rónán Mullen, John Crown, Martin Conway and Feargal Quinn. I will speak to the Leader about arranging such a debate.
Senator Sean Barrett raised the issue of the location of the Fry Model Railway Museum at Malahide Castle. I was not aware it was to be moved to BusÁras. The Senator is right that the matter should be raised with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar. It might also be worthwhile raising it as a matter on the Adjournment in order that the Minister can come to the House and provide a written response on why it is to be moved to BusÁras. I am not aware of the context for that decision and share the Senator's sentiments on it.
Senator Jimmy Harte has rightly expressed sympathy, as we all do, for the families who have suffered the appalling deaths of their children in the Swiss tunnel. They were Belgian schoolchildren who were returning home from a school skiing trip when this appalling crash occurred. As the Senator said, it puts other issues in perspective. The Senator also asked that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, be invited to the House to address the legality of the household charge. As I said, there will be statements on housing two weeks hence, which would be the appropriate time to raise the matter.
Senator Terry Leyden sought an early debate on the situation in the Middle East and Gaza. I commend the Senator for his work on the issue and as chairman of the Friends of Palestine group in the Houses, which I support. He fairly commended the Tánaiste for his efforts in the matter.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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To correct the Deputy Leader, I am convenor for the group. One of her colleagues is its chairman. I thank her for her comments.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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The Tánaiste made a statement yesterday on the recent outbreak of hostilities and the Israeli airstrike in Gaza, in which he set out the Government's views and concerns. He has pointed out that civilians on both sides have been put at risk in these exchanges and welcomed the ceasefire agreed this week. He was in the House recently for a debate in which a number of Senators raised issues regarding the Middle East. I will be happy to ask him to return for a further debate specifically on the situation in the Middle East. That would be a good idea.
Senator Michael Comiskey raised the issue of LIS schemes. It might be worthwhile for him to contact the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, directly about it.
I have responded to Senator David Norris, but he also asked that the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, be invited to the House to discuss a public inquiry into all aspects of the media, for which others have also asked. The Minister was in the House recently for a general debate and I am sure we can invite him back again.
I have dealt with Senator Jim D'Arcy's useful suggestion that we send a message to the Taoiseach about the delay in dealing with the issue of mortgage arrears. I have also responded to Senator David Cullinane's contribution.
Senator Mary Moran mentioned the Irish Network Against Racism. We all support the work it is doing to highlight the issue of racism. It would be useful to have a debate on the issues of racism and race crime. Suggestions have been made about making it an aggravating feature of a crime where it is committed with a racist motivation. I would support such a move.
Senator Mark Daly spoke about the need for greater scrutiny of EU measures and welcomed the fact that committee chairmen were meeting to discuss the issue. The justice committee holds a large number of meetings at which we scrutinise EU proposals. The Leader of the House has taken up the suggestion that the Seanad have a greater role in scrutinising legislation.
Senator Fidelma Healy Eames asked that the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, be invited to the House to discuss the school building programme. I should follow the Leader's example of not responding to Senators who are not present and have not made apologies for their absence, but we all welcome the school building programme. It involves an investment of €1.5 billion over five years. I note there is a further amount of money left in the programme for other capital works. This is, therefore, not the full extent of the building work that will take place. It will assist schools to plan ahead when they know they will be included in the five year programme.
Senator Rónán Mullen raised the issue of lobbyists, to which I have responded. Senator Cáit Keane raised the issue of mortgage arrears and the need for a debate on the issue of freedom of information. It would be useful to have such a debate in the House. The former Minister of State, former Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, introduced the freedom of information legislation and the Government is committed to restoring its strength.
Senator Michael Mullins congratulated those involved in the "Prime Time" programme. I share his view that Lorraine Mulvey is an exceptionally courageous young woman who has done a great deal for the survivors of rape and sexual abuse by speaking out on the issue and pointing out that there are supports available. It is very difficult to come forward with a complaint of rape or sexual abuse. Her action is an inspiration and will assist others in the same position.
Senator Wilson asked for a debate on adult and further education, which we have called for. Senator Quinn pointed out the importance of lobbying and its effects and how, in the context of smoking, lobbyists persuaded people for many years that smoking was good for them. That should inform our discussion on lobbyists. Finally, Senator White is calling for a debate on active ageing. I know Senator White has spoken on this topic before and I think the Leader of the House has agreed to it previously, but I will check that with him. I have also been present in the House when Senator White referred to the age of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan. I am not sure he is always entirely pleased when his age is mentioned.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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That is a very worthwhile point. In terms of the issue of more women in political life, Ms Nancy Pelosi raised this issue so powerfully during her address to the philosophical society in Trinity College yesterday. We will be having the Report and Final Stages of the Electoral (Amendment)(Political Funding) Bill tomorrow, which will provide a mechanism for many more women to get involved in politics in the future. I know Senator White has been hugely supportive of that Bill, and I thank her for that support.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Maurice Cummins, do not be away too long.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I am always wary of Senator Leyden bearing compliments.
The Seanad Divided:
For the motion: 32 (Ivana Bacik, Sean Barrett, Paul Bradford, Terry Brennan, Colm Burke, Eamonn Coghlan, Paul Coghlan, Michael Comiskey, Martin Conway, Jim D'Arcy, Michael D'Arcy, John Gilroy, Jimmy Harte, Aideen Hayden, Fidelma Healy Eames, James Heffernan, Imelda Henry, Lorraine Higgins, Caít Keane, John Kelly, Denis Landy, Maire Maloney, Mary Moran, Tony Mulcahy, Michael Mullins, Catherine Noone, Susan O'Keeffe, Pat O'Neill, Feargal Quinn, Tom Shehan, Jillian van Turnhout, John Whelan)
Against the motion: 14 (David Cullinane, Mark Daly, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Paschal Mooney, David Norris, Brian Ó Domhnaill, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Darragh O'Brien, Denis O'Donovan, Ned O'Sullivan, Kathryn Reilly, Mary White, Diarmuid Wilson)
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O'Keeffe; Níl, Senators Ned O'Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson..
Question declared carried.