Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for coming to the House to take this Adjournment matter. There has been much speculation and discussion on the decision to cut career guidance teacher numbers. I would like to come at this issue from a different slant. There are several secondary schools in my constituency with between 200 and 300 pupils. As such, they do not have the magic 500 required to have a dedicated career guidance counsellor. In recent few weeks, I have spoken to a number of part time career guidance counsellors about this decision. Some of them divide their time between career guidance and teaching in the classroom. In other words, they provide career guidance for 11 hours and teach in the classroom for a further 11 hours, which is the ideal scenario in terms of career guidance.

It is important that career guidance counsellors are involved in teaching for a number of hours but are available to students to assist on issues such as completion of CAO forms and so on. Also, career guidance offers teachers an opportunity to engage on a one-to-one basis with students with whom they could not engage in a classroom setting. One of the career guidance counsellors to whom I spoke told me that while previously she engaged in career guidance-teaching on a 50:50 basis, as a result of this cut she would only provide three hours of career guidance. This means it will only be possible to work in a classroom environment and there will be no one-to-one intervention into the future, which causes me some concern.

Like many of my colleagues here, I did not benefit from career guidance when I was at school. The one-to-one approach is extremely important. Removal of this service means vulnerable students will fall through the cracks. Students whose families can afford to retain professional career guidance will have choices, options and contacts in terms of their aspirations to attend college and so on. The last thing we want - I am sure the Minister will agree - is for the most vulnerable in our society to suffer as a result of this cut. This will force school managers to concentrate on the core subjects and career guidance will be an addition, if possible. It will not be a necessary centre plank of second level education. I accept that reform in this area was needed and that there are probably better ways of providing this service than has been the case up to now. I do not believe telling schools this service must now be provided out of budget is the right way to go. This will force school managers trying to compete with the current points system to kick career guidance down the line. The brightest always seem to shine and set the agendas within the classroom, leaving the vulnerable students at the back of the classroom, who possibly do not come from a background which instilled confidence in them, to fall through the cracks. I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I appreciate Senator Conway's remarks. We are in the difficult situation of having to reduce our expenditure, a message that must be repeated on a daily basis as people tend to forget it. In looking at reduction of resources in the secondary school sector I was faced with the option of disimproving the general pupil-teacher ratio. What persuaded me against that was that, unlike in the primary school sector, such a reduction could result in the loss of a language or science teacher in a particular school, in schools with enrolments of between 250 and 400 as against those with a complement of 1,000 pupils, which is the proposed benchmark in terms of resource or second teachers. In an effort to have minimum impact on total activity in the secondary school, I felt absorbing guidance counsellors into the general allocation of teachers would have a better negative impact - if that is not a contradiction in terms - than would disimproving the pupil-teacher ratio.

Some 42% of 730 secondary schools do not have a dedicated guidance teacher. There is a requirement on all secondary schools, through the Education Act 1998, to provide for guidance and we will issue a circular to deal with that in a specific way. I take the Senator's point in respect of guidance, given the difficult times we are in and from what I have learned from guidance counsellors prior to and since this decision was taken, namely, that the pastoral care element of the service as distinct from career guidance has sadly but increasingly become necessary because of the change in Irish society. The whole school community and subject teacher have responsibilities in this regard. Young people reflect the stresses and strains of home and are affected by family breakdown, loss of employment and the tensions which can occur within a family from time to time. A professional teacher will pick up fairly quickly on any changes in the performance in the classroom of students who are normally good at mathematics, English, Irish or whatever. The person in question may not seek the help of a guidance counsellor in a pastoral sense. Many teachers engaged in teaching a classroom subject will find themselves engaged in some form of pastoral care. Where a serious matter arises, it can be addressed by the principals and deputy principals. I had to make a choice, which I made based on advice. I know this decision has caused some concern among guidance counsellors. However, I assured the representatives with whom I met that the circular which will issue to schools between now and commencement of the next academic year will draw the attention of schools to their obligations under the Education Act 1998.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his reply. It is important that schools are reminded of their responsibilities under the Education Act 1998. I come from a rural area four hours from Dublin and one hour from Galway and Limerick. Children going to school in cities and their commuter belts tend to be better informed. While teachers have expertise in their own fields, if the career guidance element ceases to be a priority, the broad church of knowledge which a career guidance teacher or counsellor is required to possess will be compromised.

I do not question the Minister's bona fides. Before the general election he told a Teachers Union of Ireland conference that the country was broke. He was right and we must repeat this every day. Like him, I am trying to achieve the fairest and best outcome for eveyone. I look forward to seeing his circular and its impact in due course.