Seanad debates
Thursday, 4 March 2010
Order of Business
10:30 am
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Energy (Biofuel Obligation and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2010 - Committee Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and adjourn at 1 p.m., if not previously concluded; and No. 1a, statements on tourism, to be taken at 1 p.m. and conclude not later than 2.30 p.m., on which spokespersons may speak for ten minutes and all other Senators for seven minutes and Senators may share time, by agreement of the House, with the Minister to be called upon ten minutes from the conclusion of the debate.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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I ask again for a proper debate in this House on the banking crisis. The banking inquiries that are currently being carried out on behalf of the Government are taking place behind closed doors. The Government's terms of reference prohibit any investigation of the fateful night in September 2008 when the Taoiseach saddled future generations with massive debt. Last Friday, the Minister for Finance published his budget outlook for the next couple of years. He made no allowance for the recapitalisation of the Irish banks. We know that billions of euro will be spent on recapitalising the banks. When the Minister published his outlook for the next couple of years last Friday, one can imagine the howls of derision if he had neglected to include a figure for the Department of Education and Science. In this case, he has made no allowance for the fact that the taxpayers of this State will have to come up with billions of euro to recapitalise the banks. Therefore, I ask the Leader to arrange a proper rolling debate on the banking crisis so Senators and those we represent can be properly informed about what is going on. Too much is happening behind closed doors. Taxpayers are getting the rawest deal going for future generations.
I also ask for a debate on the pensions plan that was published by the Government yesterday. There is a need for a serious debate on this issue. I have been paying into a private pension plan for the last 15 years. That fund is now worth two thirds of the amount of money I have paid into it. There has been no growth or interest. The Government is saying it wants the same fund managers to manage the future pensions of low-paid workers in the same way. That is nonsensical.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Low-paid workers cannot afford to take such a hit. We need a proper debate on how these pension funds will be managed in the future.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Various groups within the community have suffered from the recession over the last couple of years. I suggest that those involved in various branches of the arts, such as sculptors, painters and writers, have probably suffered more than any other group. I appeal to my Fine Gael and Labour Party colleagues to reassess their position on the appointment of a part-time arts officer in the Central Bank. We are looking like philistines here. At a time when we are fighting our way out of recession, there is nothing more important than to give ourselves hope and optimism for the future. This industry depends on discretionary and marginal income. It requires people to spend money. We hear very little about this group. I would prefer if we halved the car scrappage scheme, which is creating jobs in Germany and France, and put the money into the arts in this country.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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We should invest in artistic events in areas like theatre, sculpting and painting, which are part and parcel of Irish life. I really think we need to look at this. It is a sad day for Ireland when two political parties oppose the investment of a minor amount of money in the arts. I should also mention that a library in Sallynoggin, which is one of the most deprived working-class areas of Dublin, is to be closed. We need a debate on the importance of the arts in Ireland. We need to consider where we need to go and how we can support these people, who need support like every other worker in the Civil Service, the public service and the factory line. Artists are a hard-working part of our community. I doubt that any other group is as much at risk. Rather than criticising the investment of money in the arts, we should be directing more money into them. Having expressed my disagreement with Fine Gael and the Labour Party, I have to say I agree with Fine Gael's point about pensions. I have said for the last six years that I completely support the idea of compulsory pensions. When Séamus Brennan came in and made that suggestion about ten years ago, I think I was the only voice in favour of it.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It has to be done. However, I do not agree with the idea of giving responsibility for this system to the private fund managers who have created havoc in our financial services industry. The Opposition parties are completely right to say that is not the way to go forward. The most effective fund managers in this country over the last ten years have been the officials in the NTMA. That is where the money should go. The State fund that has been operated has been more successful than the funds operated by other groups. We need to go in that direction.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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It is important to have a full and frank debate on the national pensions framework, which was published yesterday and provides food for thought. It is vital to get all sectors of society to buy into Ireland's future pension commitments. Those of us who are realistic accept the need for an increase in the retirement age. At present, for every six workers there are two people on pensions, but that will change. In 40 years' time, there will be two workers for every person on a pension. It is absolutely wrong to defer the tough decisions that have to be made. I would welcome a debate on yesterday's publication of the framework document. On the security of pension systems, we have to learn lessons from the examples of Waterford Glass and SR Technics over the last number of months. We have to ensure the future pensions framework takes that into account.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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As this will kick in in 2014, many people in their early 60s woke up this morning to discover they will not be able to retire for another year. We need to look at that again. It is already clear, from the debate in the media and in this House, that we will have a robust exchange of views on this issue. That is very welcome because it is vital that we get this right for all of our futures. Today is the 13th world book day. The main aim of the day is to encourage-----
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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-----children to enjoy books and to read more. Figures suggest that one in five students in this country leaves secondary school at the age of 15. One of the main reasons for that is the literacy problem. Approximately 500,000 Irish people have such problems. That is why it is important to support this endeavour. We have to recognise the good work that is done by libraries in Dublin and other counties. The people of County Meath are very proud of the excellent library service there. Children can go to libraries to borrow and read books, or to sit and study in quiet conditions. It is vital to give libraries the facilities they need to retain quality standards.
Yesterday saw the passing of a former leader of the UK Labour Party, Michael Foot. He had a very full and long life and he achieved a lot. He helped to establish the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. He was an inspirational speaker. He had a long-time interest in Ireland. I heard him speak when I was in college in Dublin in the early 1980s. He was an outstanding politician and an example to us all. If the current generation of politicians can reach his age and be as well respected across the political spectrum, we will have achieved something. Michael Foot will be long remembered by the international labour movement.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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I agree with the call for a debate on the national pensions framework, especially in the interests of those of us who will have to work for an extra three years when the time comes. It is important that this House should debate the shape of our future society. The call for a debate on the banking inquiry should wait until the terms of reference for the tribunal of inquiry are drawn up.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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Those who attended a recent meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service will have heard the Governor of the Central Bank saying he favours the model that is being adopted in the United States, which has some private elements but is largely public in its format. I am confident the tribunal of inquiry, when it is formed, will have large public elements. Can Opposition Senators square the Official Secrets Act 1963, which applies to people working in the Department of Finance, the Financial Regulator's office and the Central Bank, with a fully public inquiry? I would like to know how that circle can be squared.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator can read it on Twitter later on.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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I fully support Senator O'Toole's call for a debate on investment in the arts in the context of economic and social improvement. Is important to focus on the decisions being made by local authorities on spending priorities. I refer particularly to the Fine Gael-led local authority in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, which has made a decision on local library services. It has the right to make those decisions.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Who funds the local authorities?
Senator John Paul Phelan: Who is closing the local library services?
An Cathaoirleach: No interruptions.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Who reduced the funding for councils?
Senator John Paul Phelan: Who has cut the funding to local authorities?
Senator Dan Boyle: That gives an indication as to the priorities of those parties opposite if they were in government.
An Cathaoirleach: No interruptions.
Senator John Paul Phelan: Thug.
Senator Dan Boyle: Despite the shouting we have heard, I would like to make a personal request for non-political debate-----
A Senator: Dream on.
Senator Dan Boyle: -----on the question of politics, the media and the coarsening of public debate.
Senator John Paul Phelan: Would the Senator give it up?
Senator Dan Boyle: Last night when I left Leinster House, I was chased half way down Molesworth Street.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Boyle never walked so fast in his life.
Senator Dan Boyle: Regardless of the issue in question, I feel that type of behaviour and questioning is magnified elsewhere in public life.
This morning when I was coming down Thomas Street an admittedly very drunk man shouted at me for five minutes calling me a maggot. I believe he did so because he saw last night's scenes involving me on television.
Senator David Norris: Well said.
An Cathaoirleach: Thank you, Senator Boyle.
Senator Dan Boyle: The type of debate we have in this House where some Members mistake shouting, finger-pointing and exaggeration of rumour as fact does not help that process.
Interruptions.
An Cathaoirleach: Please, Members.
Senator Dan Boyle: We need to have a debate in this House about the whole nature of public life and the media. We would benefit from such a debate.
Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.
Senator Joe O'Toole: Hear, hear.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I am not clear about whom Senator Boyle was speaking. Was it the media or Deputy Cuffe?
An Cathaoirleach: It is questions to the Leader and no interruptions.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Boyle did not have any questions for the Leader.
Senator Dan Boyle: I asked the Leader three questions.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: It was disturbing this morning to hear a representative of the HSE state 20 reports on the protection and care of children had accumulated over the past several years in the health boards, and subsequently the HSE, but had not been published. Why were these 20 reports produced but not made available to anyone? There can be no legal excuse about confidentiality, or any other, that can justify not publishing these 20 reports. Will the Leader ensure the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children with special responsibility for children and youth affairs, Deputy Barry Andrews, attends the House as soon as possible to explain why this has happened, when these reports will be published and when children can benefit from their recommendations, some of which concern the deaths of children in care?
Senator Paschal Mooney: I have every sympathy with Senator Twomey and others who have called for a debate on the proposed changes to pension structures. I too was that soldier whose private pension plans, taken out over the past 15 years, were whittled down well below a viable value. What annoyed me was that when it was plainly obvious in the past few years that the Irish banking sector was in a tailspin and its equities were going through the floor, many of the managed funds were still going into bank shares. I recall attempting to get these funds changed in 2007 and 2008 only to be told they could not.
Will the Leader consider a debate on Irish foreign policy within the European Union? Both sides of the House will be familiar with the implications and consequences of the Lisbon treaty about the expansion of foreign policy within Europe. Earlier this week, it was reported in the Irish media that Baroness Ashton, the High Representative of the European Union, is in the process of setting up external affairs representatives, or in other words, EU ambassadors. A turf war seems to be already developing between France and Germany as to who will get the top jobs.
I believe Ireland should be at the heart of this. Members on all sides have argued Ireland should be at the heart of Europe. I urge for a debate on what Ireland's role will be in these expanded EU foreign policy structures because I am concerned a French-German-British view of Europe would be presented to the world. Ireland does not do war. We do peace, humanitarian aid and all the positive elements which the European Union is well-known for across the world. I would hate to think that decisions taken and appointments made would not be in Ireland's best interest. While it may not seem important in the wider scheme of things, it would be for Ireland's role and image in the European Union and the wider world.
Senator David Norris: I regret once again we are not breaking for lunch. I will not amend the Order of Business because of it but it is a pity. We are entitled, as human beings, to some kind of decent treatment. I have no difficulty whatever with our salaries being cut but I would appreciate if we had decent facilities in this House.
My secretary is in every morning at 7.30 a.m. She does not take lunch but has an apple. She often works until 6 p.m. and after but we have run out of the overtime allowance. I am here every day and I am delighted we are clocking in. At least people will know those of us who are here. It would be very refreshing if they could monitor the doings of the House to see who contributes and all the rest of it.
Since the development of electronic communication, there is a flood of communications every day.
Senator Donie Cassidy: Yes, every day.
Senator David Norris: In the recession, there are people whose homes are under threat, children are sick, have planning difficulties or are in debt which must be answered. I never get to bed until after midnight. Then I have to listen to cheap shots on the wireless claiming we were in the Seanad for a day and a quarter and get paid for doing nothing. I bitterly resent and reject it. I do not mind what we get paid but I want the facilities to do the job. At present, we are being asked to make bricks without straw.
I support Senator Frances Fitzgerald that it is horrifying there are 20 reports on children in care awaiting publication. I must signal the warning, however, that it is terribly important that in intervening in this area we make absolutely certain we do not prejudice the welfare and rights of the other family members concerned. I particularly think of two small children who will probably learn from their schoolmates today of the tragic circumstances of their mother's death. In these matters we need sensitivity.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senators O'Toole and Boyle in their calls for continued support for the arts. It is important we do not make short-sighted decisions and undo some of the tremendous work achieved in the past ten years. I am proud Kerry County Council provided in its annual estimates funding for the Listowel Writers' Week, the national theatre in Tralee and other arts programmes.
I am calling for a debate on national gas supply, particularly in the mid-west region. This week Endesa announced it will proceed with a gas-powered generating station in Tarbert, County Kerry, creating 500 jobs which is to be tremendously welcomed. Bord Gáis Éireann has announced it will lay a pipeline connecting the power station to the national grid. At the same time, Shannon LNG has received permission to extend a gas pipeline on the same path. There is obviously a need for joined-up thinking.
If the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, attended the House, we could highlight the positive elements of these projects. I know the Minister is committed to the creation of an energy hub at the mouth of the Shannon Estuary. Such a debate would help and progress that idea.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I support the calls by Senators O'Toole, Boyle and O'Sullivan with regard to the arts. Last weekend I had the privilege and pleasure of attending the Irish Museums Association annual conference in Killarney, County Kerry. Museums are a great store of knowledge and value to the State, doing wonderful work for cultural tourism, preserving those important traditions that are of value to us and helping to explain from where we came and who we are. The people concerned are greatly undervalued and under ferocious pressure.
I renew the call of Senator Twomey for a debate on banking and take on board the points made by Senator Boyle. There are so many stages in this process. The Commission in Brussels needs to get off its butt because it delayed the sanctioning of NAMA. The business plans of the institutions have been made, yet we are going nowhere until the Commission sanctions or amends the business plans of our two major banks, AIB and Bank of Ireland. Bank of Ireland had to give shares instead of cash, which it would have preferred, because of state aid rules. AIB will face this prospect on 13 May but I hope the Commission will have got off its butt by then and got this measure through in the interests of the State. If amendments must be made and assets must be sold, so be it.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Is Senator Coghlan looking for a debate on the issue?
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader understands recapitalisation cannot take place until the NAMA-bound portfolios are transferred. None of the transfers has yet taken place. There is a major delay. We deserve to have the Minister for Finance attend the House in order that we can hear more of the details. The availability of credit to worthy customers who are being choked is very important.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We do not want the banks to have more bad debts.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I know the Cathaoirleach thanks me but the Leader has not given me an answer. That is what I want.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader for a debate on pensions, particularly in the light of the announcement made yesterday. I welcome that announcement, as hundreds of thousands will be allowed to qualify for a pension. It is difficult to say who will be the best people to manage the scheme. Those involved will receive an annual statement and be directly involved in the investment. There are only three possible investments, all made from equities, property or cash. There are no further variations. It is very easy for one company to state that if it had invested in cash, it would have done very well. That may be true over a period of one or two years but over a period of 30 years equity investments have always outperformed the others. The mandatory nature of the scheme will help people and is to be warmly welcomed.
I suggest we have a debate on banking very shortly. I ask that consideration be given to bringing home from abroad some of the assets of the NTMA and putting them into the banks, with a specific reference that they be used for the purpose of providing credit. Over and above the funding the banks need, the money the NTMA has abroad should be brought home and invested in our banks with a specific reference to providing credit for businesses.
Ciarán Cannon (Fine Gael)
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Last week when Senator Coffey called for a debate on how we could develop the green economy, he mentioned the excellent document, Developing the Green Economy in Ireland, which was produced by a high level study group and published last November. It contains many excellent suggestions, on which we need an urgent debate in order that Members opposite can familiarise themselves with the contents of report, on page 30 of which it is suggested, as Fine Gael has been suggesting for a number of months, that a single national water authority be set up. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, was bemused by this the last time the issue was mentioned in the House.
The document expresses a strong commitment to wind energy. I am working with a wind energy company based in Cork to help it to develop its business in the west. It tells me it has hit nothing but brick walls and that there is a lack of support from the Government in expanding the wind energy sector. One of the things to which it points is the major discrepancy between the way wind energy producers are treated here and across the Border in Northern Ireland. For example, in this country there is little or no guarantee about the price one will receive for the energy produced. In the United Kingdom, from 1 April, producers will be guaranteed 41p for every unit of energy produced, even if it is used in the producer's house or business. There is no such commitment in Ireland. A commitment given to offer a certain price was reneged on a few months later. In the United Kingdom one pays VAT at a rate of 5% on the purchase of a wind turbine, whereas in this country one pays at a rate of 21%. If the Government is serious about supporting alternative energy projects, it needs to take these issues on board. I look forward to a debate on the green economy very soon.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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This morning we have had a number of pertinent contributions on the importance of the arts and artists in Ireland. It is through the arts that we demonstrate our distinctiveness as a nation. As a small nation, we are punching way above our weight in the artistic world and the envy of many countries. From the Book of Kells to Riverdance, it is clear that is exactly what gives us status in the world. The return on any investment in the arts is more than hundredfold. Various surveys of tourists to Ireland show that the arts figure among the first four or five requirements. Another element to consider is the great sense of pride the arts give us as a nation. This occurs at community, national and international levels. It would be a retrograde step, therefore, to consider cutting investment in the arts. It is one thing to take the success and potential of the arts for granted, it is another to believe that in a competitive world our current status will continue if we do not sustain it. I, therefore, ask the Leader to set time aside for a comprehensive debate on this issue.
The time has come to focus on policies, not personalities. In the media, this Chamber or anywhere else we are not helping the people we are supposed to represent. That negative and disruptive message extends way beyond the shores of Ireland. We should make a decision to deal with any policy we want to put to the people. The day of the cult of personality in politics and the manner in which it is handled in the media must come to an end or we will do much harm to the body politic and the confidence of people. This will haunt us in the future.
Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I support what colleagues have said about the arts. Senator O'Toole made the opening comments about the bread and roses perspective. His presentation is very fair. Notwithstanding the financial difficulties of local authorities, they should attempt to support and promote the arts. It is important we are having this mini-discussion at this point on the political spectrum because there is talk of a Cabinet reshuffle, not so much in terms of personnel but in terms of the reconfiguration of Departments. There was a recommendation that certain Departments be amalgamated or abolished. That is a judgment call the Taoiseach and his advisers must make. If we are concerned about the arts and culture and their development on the island, the message from this House to the Taoiseach should be that the reconfiguration of Departments should result in a strong role at Cabinet level and a portfolio for the arts and culture with whatever addendums are provided for. Members on the Government side of the House are saying there is an obligation on the Opposition to make demands of our local authority colleagues to fund the arts. There is a strong obligation on the Government, given the Taoiseach is about to put in place a new Cabinet, to ensure a new Department responsible for arts and culture is defended.
I support the request for a debate on pension provision. I have raised this matter previously because we have become fixated with the pensions industry. For the past 20 or 25 years, people who did not invest significant money in pension funds were looked on as second class citizens. There was an inevitability to the collapse of the pensions industry. Yesterday's document must be debated urgently. A great deal of good work has been done but we have a distance to travel. Pensions are vital for every citizen and the role of the State is central. It is time for action and I hope the Leader can arrange a debate as soon as possible.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I also support the call for a debate on the arts. I would hate to think there would be a reduction in investment in this area. Many Senators have touched on the subject. Throughout Ireland, even in the smallest villages, art is blossoming in every form, whether it be reading, protection of monuments, stimulating interest in young artists or art exhibitions. It is our natural flair to be involved in culture and arts and I would hate it if support was withdrawn. Local authorities have a significant role in promoting local artists and culture. Many aspects of the arts could be raised when the debate is put on the agenda. The arts generate comprehensive interest and we are only touching on it now. It is an important subject to be debated.
I would be delighted to debate the proposed pensions structure. Society has changed a great deal, as has the world of work, how people do their jobs and people's lifestyles and pensions will have to reflect that. That is a good topic and the report needs to be studied and debated. I ask the Leader to schedule debates on both these issues soon.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I am disappointed the Cathaoirleach turned down a matter I proposed to raise on the Adjournment because I referred it to a Department that claims not to have responsibility for it.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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The issue on which I sought a debate was the decision by the United States to insist that after a certain date, which has not yet been decided, all goods exported to the US will have to be scanned before they leave the country of origin. I assumed that would be huge interest to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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It is essential that we overcome this because it will be costly to install the scanning system required to trace everything leaving Ireland in containers for the US. I will table the matter again next week. Bureaucracy and red tape is an issue. It does not make sense that the wrong Department could not transfer my request to the appropriate Department.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I would have thought the Civil Service had a better system than that. I will table the issue again next week on the basis that it has something to do with ports, but the Department for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources may well say this is not covered by its remit and it should be addressed somewhere else.
With regard to pensions, some years ago Senator O'Toole referred to the fact he was one of those who spoke about the need for universal pensions. I fully supported that then but let us not jump to the conclusion that this will be easily done for private pensions. Reference was made to what happened at Waterford Crystal. If the company had a pension system under which it would have had to increase its costs over the past 20 years, it would not have lasted as long as it did. It is not as simple as saying employers should pay pensions automatically. The issue is much more difficult than that but there is a need for private pension provision.
I attended an interesting conference yesterday morning entitled Turning Silver Into Gold. It was opened by the Taoiseach in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham. It was about making money in the future out of those of us with silver hair. It is fascinating that people who are a little older than retirement age have the ability to spend money and this presents an opportunity. What emerged from the conference, however, is that a large number of people do not want to have to retire and it was interesting that a number of company representatives pointed out they did not impose a retirement age and they encouraged people to continue working. That is why the criticism of us being told we have to work longer is dangerous. A large number of people around the world and in Ireland would welcome the opportunity. The word "retirement" should almost be banned. People who wish to continue to work and contribute to the nation's wealth should be allowed to do so.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Senator Coghlan's call to discuss NAMA and I hope the Leader will consider such a debate. The Senator should look to his own party as far as the delay is concerned in the approval by the-----
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not mind anyone else's party. He should put questions to the Leader. It is not on to refer to other parties on the Order of Business.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader examine why the delay occurred and who was responsible for it? A debate on this would be worthwhile.
Senators Fitzgerald and Norris referred to the report prematurely published by Deputy Shatter yesterday.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It was not premature at all. The Minister was afraid.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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An important report will be presented to the Government on 12 March by Ms Norah Gibbons of Barnardos regarding the Roscommon case. Sentencing in the case takes place tomorrow. The report will be of significant importance to all concerned but it must be considered by the Attorney General. I urge that it be published as quickly as possible after that and that it not be delayed because it is vital that this report, particularly in regard to the house of horrors in Roscommon, be published and those who ignored what happened accept responsibility.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator agree or disagree with Deputy Shatter? It sound like he is agreeing with him.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Today is world book day, which puts a welcome focus on the arts and literacy, which are linked. As many Senators said, the arts generate a good spirit in our communities and they are a source of cultural tourism and creative industries. They should be supported, as Senator Bradford said, at Government level in the upcoming reshuffle.
I would like an urgent debate on literacy, given 30% of children leave schools in disadvantaged areas without being able to read or write, according to the recent NESF report. Literacy is the passport to personal independence and it is also a matter of strategic national importance. That also puts the focus on the need for a debate on the quality of our education system. I was shocked on Monday when I heard the Minister for Education and Science say on radio that he was shocked when he heard we were only average in mathematics. He said he thought we were always above average. He clearly had not read the OECD's reports. He is an uninformed Minister.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Be careful. The Minister might sue the Senator.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is incredible indictment of the Department of Education and Science that the Minister has not read the OECD's reports.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Then she should ask the Leader for that. She should not continue in this fashion.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for his time. I am seeking a debate.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I seek a debate on mathematics and on the quality of our education system.
Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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A number of us are deeply concerned at the manner in which information has emerged over recent weeks about children in care.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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That is because the Government has kept it all hidden.
Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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A service provider indicated in a radio interview earlier that serious gaps remain for children in care. Could the Leader arrange appropriate briefings and reports? We could then consider whether it is necessary to have a debate in the House regarding the level of supports, the gaps, if any, and the variances in different areas of the country in services provided to children taken into care.
I welcome the fact that a number people are now joining me in asking for a debate on pensions. As Senators will know, I have been asking for this debate for a period of time. I hope the Leader will now be able to accommodate it, especially given that we have the new framework document. We have other reports available to us, including the recent report from the Pensions Board.
I have referred previously to the issue and importance of competitiveness. I am pleased to note the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has announced today that he is to establish a working group to review commercial rent reviews. He has already banned upward-only rent reviews and has now established this working group. Would it be possible to arrange a debate in this House as soon as this group's first report is available because it impinges on the issue of competitiveness?
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I call for a debate on an issue that disturbs me greatly. Gillian Fallon's husband was deported back to Nigeria yesterday. They had been together as a family for three years and they got married on 5 May 2009. Fourteen days later gardaí arrived at their house - they are neighbours of my father's - at 7.30 a.m. They disturbed the family, including two little children and issued him with a deportation order. I was made aware that Gillian Fallon works full time and supports her partner who is not allowed to work even though he is a qualified electrician. This is inhumane and heart-rending treatment for this family. I fail to understand why I received no response to my representation made on 13 November. They want nothing from the State; he just wants to be allowed to stay here. They are in a loving relationship and he was a stepfather to her two children. I fail to understand why he was deported and treated so inhumanely.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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He was placed in custody for three days before being deported.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I need an urgent debate and answers on the matter. We are creating false expectations for these people by allowing them to live and participate as citizens in our country only for us then to deport them. I want an urgent debate on this family.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Government decision yesterday to ban a range of head shop products. From June head shops will be prevented from selling a range of products that would have been sold under the heading of legal highs until now. Head shops are a scourge on society. A number of them in my constituency are causing tremendous grief and pain to parents and to the local community. I welcome the Government's decision, which is a step in the right direction. Ultimately, while there may be a constitutional issue, I would like to see a total ban on head shops. I would also like to see the regulation of such shops under the planning guidelines. That might be considered in the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2009, which is before the Dáil at present. Consumer law should be amended to take account of the dangers head shops pose to vulnerable people and young people.
I refer to the ongoing dissident activity north of the Border, which is extending to untreatable levels and causing great distress to many people living north of the Border. There are dissident groups on both sides that are scourging local communities. Evidence of that was the death of the young man in Derry approximately ten days ago. The man had connections with my area in Donegal. I know he was a very respectable young man who was killed brutally by a dissident republican group. However, those people are nothing more than murderers who deserve to lie in the gutter. Those people need to be brought to task. They are not republicans. They do not represent the values of the republican leaders who established this State.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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We need an urgent debate with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Minister for Foreign Affairs present. We should liaise with the Garda Commissioner to ensure as much cross-Border co-operation as possible exists.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to acknowledge finally-----
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----the work of the Garda-----
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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-----in tackling some of the issues in Border areas of Donegal at present.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Health and Children to the House to discuss a national plan for rare diseases. Some 140,000 of our fellow citizens suffer from rare diseases and it is important for us to have a coherent national plan. I ask for that debate to be facilitated as soon as possible.
In a rare moment of equality on this side of this House, I sympathise with Senator Boyle on his plight last night.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should be asking questions of the Leader.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I am. I am asking for a debate-----
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I know that Cork people are very loyal to one another.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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The Senator could look into Facebook over it.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I am asking for a debate on the role of the media and the way in which they cover politics. While much of Senator Boyle's plight was because of Facebook and Twitter, what happened last night on television was a very poor day for journalism. Whatever else about us as politicians, we work hard and represent the people. While we might have a different viewpoint regarding policies and personalities, but we leave that behind us when we go outside the doors of these Houses and we work for the people collectively. What happened yesterday on television was poor. I say that as somebody who is very critical of Government policy. I suggest to Senator Ó Murchú that the Government's policy has failed with 340,000 people unemployed, our banks almost bankrupt and the country almost bankrupt. That is the fundamental problem. We need a debate on how we can get out of the situation we are in, why Government has created unemployment and why the country is almost bankrupt. Part of the blame lies with the policies pursued by Fianna Fáil and the Green Party. As Senator Norris said, it is important for us to stand collectively together to defend ourselves.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Time is almost up and some Members who have been here from the start want to contribute.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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There is a growing trend towards tabloid journalism which does not serve the people well.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Time is almost up. I want to call some Members who have been here from the start of business if I can.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Today is world book day. I welcome the fact that on "Morning Ireland" this morning, Maeve Binchy was heard to intervene on the closure of Sallynoggin library. While I know it is a specific issue, it is one that goes to the heart of how we design our policies. We have a national policy on social inclusion and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has a policy on social inclusion reflected in its development plans. When it comes to the reality, the words mean nothing when it comes to the closure of this library, which has 1,300 members and had 22,000 books lent in a single year. It is a disgrace. It defies logic that this library is to close.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I remind Senator Boyle that I am not finished.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I wrote to all the councillors last December appealing to them not to do this in January's budget discussion. I wrote to the county manager and have delivered 5,000 leaflets on the matter. This is bad policy.
Larry Butler (Fianna Fail)
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It was done by members of the Senator's party.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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My question is as follows. I am asking the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, or whoever may become the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to intervene in the matter. When a council cuts across its own development plan and national policies on social inclusion-----
Camillus Glynn
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should talk to his own people. Are they talking to him?
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I will adjourn the House if Members continue to interrupt.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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-----it is required that the Minister would intervene in the matter. There is no disagreement in the House on this issue and I ask the Leader to address that question to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
Larry Butler (Fianna Fail)
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It is a Labour and Fine Gael county council.
Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to investigate claims made yesterday that, owing to the industrial action taking place in our public services, social welfare offices were closed to people wanting to collect social welfare benefits. I would like him to tell us the number of offices and the benefits that were affected by that industrial action. This is an important issue that the House should address. People are entitled and allowed to make their point, campaign and use the industrial relations tools at their disposal, but they should reflect on the fact that the consequence of such action is that people who do not have jobs suffer as a result of it. There is a choice facing our society between the protection of jobs and the protection of income but in the choices any of us make, we must keep in mind those people who have been unlucky to lose their jobs through no fault of their own. I ask the Leader to investigate the number of people affected by this industrial action. If it turns out to be the case that people were unable to claim their benefits, those responsible might reflect on the consequences of their actions on people who are much less fortunate than themselves.
Mark Dearey (Green Party)
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I support Senator McFadden's call for a debate on her neighbour's asylum status and the deportation order that has caused such great distress in her case. The debate could be widened to include the general issue of the way we are dealing with the backlog of applications. I understand legislation is on the way. It will not bring good news for all who are on the list but at least it will bring quick news.
Mark Dearey (Green Party)
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At the very least it will create some clarity. I attended a recent forum in Dundalk with Deputy Ciarán Cuffe where we met with approximately 70 or 80 members of the African community in town, most of whom are in limbo, so to speak. They are aware that not all of them will get good news but they want some clarity and dignity in the way their cases are being handled. That is in short supply in regard to those people.
Regarding Sallynoggin library, my understanding is that the decision was taken in the context of a new headquarters being opened in Dún Laoghaire which will be of enormous benefit to the wider community. It represents a significant investment by both the council and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, is part of the development plan for Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and is expressed as a strategic objective in that plan, for which I assume Senator Regan's councillor colleagues voted.
Mark Dearey (Green Party)
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We need the whole story in this case and not part of the story.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I have gone over time. I have to apologise to the other Members who wished to speak today. Five Members have missed out and I apologise to them.
David Norris (Independent)
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That is a very good argument for extending the Order of Business.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge former Senator and councillor, Farrell McElgunn, who is in the Visitors Gallery with a group of active age members and some friends of ours from Athlone, particularly the person from Castlepollard who I see in the Visitors Gallery.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Twomey, O'Toole, Hannigan, Coghlan, Hanafin, Leyden and Buttimer called for a debate on banking. As I said on the Order of Business during the week, the Finance Bill will be debated on 24, 25 and 26 March. We will have an all day and all night Second Stage debate and as I have already indicated, I will allow additional time to ensure everything pertaining to the finance portfolio can be debated on Wednesday, 24 March. I invite colleagues to take up their various concerns with the Minister for Finance who will be present in the House that day.
Senators Twomey, O'Toole, Hannigan, Boyle, Mooney, Hanafin, Bradford, Ormonde, Quinn and Callely called for a debate on the pensions report. That is timely and I have no difficulty in the House having a lengthy debate on that issue. It is a serious challenge facing the nation and everyone can learn from the sorry experiences they have had in terms of what has happened to pension funds, especially since 2007.
Senators O'Toole, Boyle, O'Sullivan, Coghlan, Ó Murchú, Bradford, Ormonde, Healy Eames and Regan called on the Government to continue its great work on funding of the arts. It was this Government that appointed a Minister to be in charge of the arts. A great deal has been done, particularly in all the one-stop-shops throughout the country, whether in Castlepollard or Kilbeggan, where the libraries have increased to three times their size. We have a beautiful library in Castlepollard comprising 1,500 sq. ft. which has almost 1,700 members. There is a great deal of good work being done.
Regarding the experience in Farmleigh, the feedback we got from all the successful, Irish-born people from throughout the world was about the portfolio of arts. That is the area in which we have achieved the most, whether it be in regard to our entertainers, our musicals, our artists or anyone participating in the film world. What other country's music is a brand name? We are the envy of most countries in the world in terms of our success in the arts. I agree we should have an afternoon debate on arts and arts funding and we can also take up the issue with the Minister for Finance when he is in the House on 24 March.
Senator Hannigan referred to the sad passing of Michael Foot. I join the Senator in his comments on the contribution the late Mr. Foot made to public life in the United Kingdom.
Reference was made to today being national book day-----
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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-----and the contribution made by our libraries. Senators Boyle, Norris and Buttimer called for a debate on the media in politics, the role of the media in public life and the downturn in the economy in terms of how they are not uplifting our people. It is a race to the bottom-----
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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-----with bad news coming out all the time. That is not being responsible and the leadership of the media have a responsibility in this regard. We had a responsible media here for decades but a new dimension is creeping in from the media outside the island of Ireland. That is from where competition is being perceived to be coming. I have no difficulty in having a debate on the role of the media and the role of the Press Council in this regard.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, do I not always listen to the requests of colleagues?
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No interruptions, please. The Leader is replying to the Order of Business.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Legislation must take precedence and next week, as was the case this week, a number of Bills will come to the House.
Senators Fitzgerald, Leyden and Callely referred to the Health Service Executive reports that are pending. I listened to both sides attentively in that regard and look forward to their publication. The constitutionality concerns of the HSE must also be taken into account but I know many colleagues in the House wish to have this report brought to our attention and discussed in the House. As soon as the report is published, I hope to have it for their consideration in the House within a few short weeks.
Senator Mooney raised the issue of Irish foreign affairs policy and our role within the European Union and expressed his concerns in that regard. I have no difficulty in passing those on to the Minister for Foreign Affairs with a view to seeing how we can progress his proposal.
Senator Healy Eames called for a debate on literacy and quality in education. I have no difficulty in allocating time for that.
Senator O'Sullivan referred to the good news that 500 new jobs are to be created to work on the gas supply line at Tarbert. He called on the Minister, Deputy Ryan, to come to the House to discuss the energy hub at Shannon Estuary and everything pertaining to that part of the country. I will have no difficulty in arranging a debate on the matter in the very near future.
Senator Cannon called for a debate on the green economy. Such a debate would be timely on one of the central parts of the programme for Government. I will have no difficulty in arranging a debate on wind power, wave power and every related issue, apart from oil for which we have paid dearly for many years.
Senator Quinn outlined the high container charges and the fact that by 2011 all exports to the United States would have to be scanned. I will have no difficulty with the issue being discussed at a future date. The Senator also referred to the successful conference he attended yesterday in which the Taoiseach participated. Certainly, for most of the self-employed there is no such thing as a retirement age. I fully agree with the sentiments expressed by the Senator. As 75% of all businesses in Ireland are family run, everyone will have to step into line for them to remain competitive.
Senator Callely called for a debate on the issue of competitiveness. This is the greatest challenge facing the country. If it is overcome, the country will be well placed to witness an uplift in the economy and a return to buoyancy which we all experienced in the past ten or 12 years.
Senators McFadden and Dearey mentioned the Gillian Fallon case. I share their sentiments and will consult the Minister's office after the Order of Business. I will come back to the two Senators on the case.
Senator Ó Domhnaill outlined his serious concern about head shops and complimented the Government on banning various substances. The debate on head shops which commenced in the House last week will be continued next week. For those colleagues who were disappointed not to have an opportunity to make their contribution the matter is to be discussed in the House again.
Senator Ó Domhnaill also mentioned the ongoing activities north of the Border and the young man who had lost his life in Derry. I will certainly convey his serious concerns to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Those of us who attended the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly in Cavan last week came away extremely confident, given the close working arrangements and co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda Síochána. Please God, such occurrences will be rare in the future, rather than being the order of the day, as they were in the past 30 years.
Senator Buttimer called for a debate on the national plan to deal with rare diseases. I will convey the Senator's strong views on the issue to the Minister for Health and Children. We can debate it in the House with the Minister present at a future date.
Senator Donohoe mentioned social welfare recipients, persons who were unemployed and unable to work. I will contact the Minister's office about the matter and get back to the Senator in the afternoon.
Eamon RyanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 1 is a Government amendment. As Government amendments Nos. 1 and 2 are consequential, they may be discussed together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Government amendment No. 1:
In page 5, subsection (2), line 34, to delete "the Minister" and substitute the following:
"the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources".
Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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This amendment is being inserted to clarify that it is the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources who will make any necessary orders. It does not affect the policy. The definition of "Minister" is being deleted in section 2, as it has now been included in section 1. The definition of "Principal Act" is clarified further and does not affect the policy. I propose that the amendments be accepted.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendments Nos. 3, 4, 6 to 8, inclusive, 12, 13, 28 and 32 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.
David Norris (Independent)
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I move amendment No. 3:
In page 6, between lines 15 and 16, to insert the following:
" 'bioethanol' shall only be deemed to constitute a biofuel in the case of ethyl alcohol ex CN (Combined nomenclature) sub-heading Taric code 2207 1000 with an alcohol content of at least 99 per cent volume the properties of which comply at least the requirements set in document EN 15376:2007 or any subsequent revisions to this document by the EU Committee for Standardisation CEN;".
This is a series of related amendments which go right to the heart of the matter on which I have been lobbied effectively by a commercial company. I think the Minister of State will agree that in the current economic circumstances it is important that we foster and encourage potential indigenous industrial development. What we are looking for is a level playing field. It is similar to the position on Brazilian beef. I happen to love Brazil. Its people are very charming. It is a very beautiful place and I have been there on a number of occasions. Therefore, I am not anti-Brazilian, but we need a level playing field for those involved in our own industry. We have seen the agitation of farmers on the rules pertaining to beef production. We face a similar situation where the possible development of an indigenous industry may be stymied by the absence from the Bill of certain measures concerning tariffs which would bring us into line with at least eight other European countries which have introduced similar legislation. They have provided for such tariffs to create a level playing field.
Some of the language used is unattractive - natured and undenatured. "Undenatured" is one of the most ugly words I have ever come across, but, regrettably, it appears to be necessary to describe some of the technical processes involved. Undenatured or naturally produced bioethanol is the equivalent of a kind of poteen; additives are included to dilute it and so on. It is also sometimes needed for certain chemical processes and so forth. However, the transport of undenatured ethanol is a standard international practice. There is nothing against it; it is not dangerous. Therefore, there is no technical argument against it. To secure the type of investment required, which is very significant, it is essential that our domestic legislation mirrors the European legislation of which I have spoken. Sweden applies these tariffs to Brazilian ethanol, as do Belgium, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Austria and Spain. I urge the Minister to accept this amendment and to get involved in direct discussions with the agencies that wish to introduce this type of manufacturing into this country.
The impact of this would be to secure jobs and to provide for the security of our bio-fuel requirements within the European Union. At present, we use some of the major oil companies, which bring it in from various countries around the world. That does not confer any real benefit on the Irish industrial community. There would also be the development of plant infrastructure, and 4% of our fossil fuel requirements would be replaced by this indigenously produced material, which is very environmentally friendly. A total of 100,000 tonnes of fuel would be produced as well as 110,000 tonnes of the basic materials for animal feed. In that regard we currently import soya from various countries, including Brazil. It will also produce 60,000 tonnes of CO2 gas, which we must import at present through the British Oxygen Company. The proposed plant would be located in Waterford and would be a major industrial development for the area. It would help to alleviate the economic distress being experienced in Waterford, particularly in the aftermath of the closure of companies such as Waterford Glass. That must be a major argument for the Government.
What is being proposed is the adoption of the quality standard technically known as EN15376 which is also applied to externally sourced ethanol outside the European Union. The standard represents 99% volume purity, anhydrous - without water - and is the recommended standard used by the majority of EU member states to prevent tariff engineering of undenatured ethanol outside the EU or in bonded warehouses. The difference in both standards, in the main, is the water content of approximately 3%. The Brazilians would prefer to denature their own ethanol outside EU borders or within bonded warehouses inside the EU. This essentially means a lower bioethanol production cost per litre while obtaining maximum price within the EU. In other words, it is a tax dodge. This benefits the Brazilian domestic industry, without having to maintain EU standards of production.
We are talking about an improved security of supply and the development, construction and operation of a €100 million bioethanol facility. This is in addition to the indirect support of approximately 1,000 jobs in the Waterford area, which is an economic blackspot. It would also create new opportunities for the agriculture sector after the ending of the production of sugar beet. There is a serious problem in agriculture with the decline in sheep and cattle prices. This development would have the spin-off effect of producing feed. There would be a significant tax contribution through PAYE, corporation tax, rates and VAT to the Exchequer while there would be import substitution of 110,000 tonnes of soya animal feed through the utilisation of the distillers dried grains with solubles, DDGS, by-product, a product which is highly sustainable both in terms of environmental performance and greenhouse gas emissions savings. Furthermore, there is a knock-on effect in Brazil. Ireland, of course, will be a small player in this and Brazil is an enormous country. However, everybody is aware of the appalling impact on the rainforest. Millions of acres are destroyed partly for the production of soya. The production of bioethanol in Brazil is also having an impact. There are many environmental and commercial reasons for considering this proposal.
There appears to be a perception that there are technical problems relating to the importation of undenatured Brazilian ethanol for fuel use. It must be denatured before it can be transported. All Brazilian ethanol is produced and exported in an undenatured state. The denaturant is added within the EU borders, prior to the duty point, depending on the requirements of the individual end users and their national regulations. It is denatured as a result of European national customs requirements by adding a select number of additives listed in EN15376. Transport of denatured ethanol is rare and only happens if the end user requires it. Shipping undenatured ethanol has nothing to do with technical feasibility; it is a standard practice around the globe.
With regard to the water content in ethanol, EU oil and car companies do not want too much water in the ethanol. The Brazilians always complain about this and say that the standard is a non-tariff barrier. However, there has been an international inquiry into this issue and a tripartite committee was established, comprising membership from the United States, Brazil and the European Union. Last year, the official conclusions were reached and they were unanimous that the water content issue was not a barrier to trade. The Minister will be able to possess himself of this report.
There have been doubts about the economic viability of an Irish bio-fuel plant. There is the issue of economies of scale but this has been well researched and is supported by other major European, particularly German, chemical combines. The plant size suggested is optimised to match both Irish demand for fuel ethanol and the capacity to produce feedstuff. As an island, Ireland has a number of competitive advantages over other locations to make the plant viable. I accept that the economic viability of an Irish plant is an issue to concern the promoter. It is a market risk for the developer, but the developer will take this risk. I am asking that the Seanad create the market conditions through legislation that will enable these investors and potential Irish industrialists to develop it.
There are benefits with regard to carbon dioxide as well. We import all our carbon dioxide through the British Oxygen Company. I recall seeing its lorries travelling through Dublin transporting cylinders and my cousin was the company's chief engineer at one time. The fact that we import all this gas makes CO2 capture at the plant viable and will provide the company with an additional revenue stream. It currently costs €60 per tonne in transport charges alone to import this gas into Ireland so it will be a significant revenue stream. The CO2 capture also greatly enhances the environmental performance of the plant. One of the other by-products is distillers dried grains with solubles, DDGS. It is a valuable by-product and is a direct substitute for imported animal feed. Once again, it would mean the replacement of imported material with Irish-produced material.
I have absolutely no commercial interest in this proposal. I merely met the people concerned but I considered the proposal so valuable I put forward these amendments. Ireland's production costs per tonne are competitive within Europe. This is partly because we have the highest wheat yields in Europe due to the longer growing period. There are various other points concerning price and the impact at the fuel pumps which can be dealt with.
In terms of sustainability, the demand for land in Brazil, in particular, has been driven by the increased demand for soya, sugar cane and beef. It can be expected that an increased demand for bioethanol worldwide to fulfil bio-fuel obligations will automatically create further pressure to convert rainforest to agricultural land. Saying bioethanol is produced using sustainable methods does not guarantee that the rainforest will not be knocked indirectly by beef farms as a result of an increased demand for sugar cane. As I said, the scale of destruction is absolutely vast. Millions of acres have been destroyed. The demand for bioethanol will increase and the question is where should it be produced. I made the argument that it should be produced here to generate jobs and very valuable materials. If the Government decides not to apply the tariff which eight other European countries have successfully applied and in so doing so secured their indigenous industries, it may be unknowingly promoting the destruction of the rainforest by creating increased demand which would be contrary to its intentions. I ask the Minister of State to ensure a level playing field which would require no investment on the part of the Government. It would at least open up the possibility of securing the development of a significant industry in what is an economic black spot.
I ask that Seanad Éireann employ all of its forces in requesting the Minister of State to take this matter very seriously, on which I believe I will receive support from other sections of the House. There would be no cost to the Exchequer. The Government would simply need to create the market conditions, whereby we could develop a viable, indigenous industry and give employment to our own people during this critical and difficult period.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State. It is the first time we have encountered each other in this role. We studied history together in UCD and I am delighted to meet him in this context.
I support the sentiments expressed by Senator Norris. As a lover of words, I flatter myself by thinking I am something of a wordsmith on occasion. I fully share the Senator's view that "undenatured" is not a very satisfactory word. It is not good English and we do not like the term. I also share his sentiments on showing no inherent antipathy towards Brazil or Brazilians. Unlike him, I have not had the opportunity to visit Brazil. I am not yet sufficiently resourced to make such a visit. I have such an affection for my constituency that I do not like to be away from it much. However, I may travel to Brazil in the future. I agree with the Senator; none of our amendments is predicated on an anti-Brazilian sentiment. In many respects, the contrary is the case, when we examine the food supply chain and the cutting down of the rainforest.
All of my amendments are included in this group and I propose, with the permission of the Leas-Chathaoirleach, to discuss each of them. However, I will take guidance from him on the matter.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator propose to speak to all of his amendments in this group?
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Yes. All of my amendments are predicated on issues I raised on Second Stage. The first was indigenous production of the raw materials required for the production of bio-fuels, the indigenous processing of bio-fuels and, on a national and international level, not allowing the production, use or introduction of quotas of bio-fuels to interfere in an adverse fashion with the food supply or put consumers in a position where they would pay inflated prices for food. These parameters dictate the amendments I have tabled.
Our first and most compelling obligation as legislators is to create conditions to rectify the unemployment crisis. Those of us who hold advice clinics or meet people on a regular basis are aware of the reality for the large number of young graduates who are unemployed and those who are dislocated from construction and traditional manufacturing industry. Some 13 people out of every 100 or in excess of 437,000 are unemployed. That should be the backdrop against which we approach any legislative package of this nature.
Coupled with this is a crisis in farm incomes. In 2009 the average farm income was approximately €13,000, a bleak figure. There is a crisis in commodity prices for farmers, despite the fact that at farm gate level they only receive a percentage of the ultimate price paid by the consumer. Recent figures support the notion that the numbers employed in Irish agriculture are declining rapidly. It is against that backdrop that we have to examine the Bill and the amendments tabled.
Amendment No. 4 examines the fact that 99% v/v purity is the recommended standard and used in a majority of European Union member states to prevent tariff engineering of undenatured ethanol outside the European Union or in bonded warehouses within it. Countries such as Brazil produce ethanol to a standard of 96% v/v, which poses a threat to our domestic production of the raw materials or the indigenous processing industry. A requirement to meet a figure of 99% v/v would make it difficult for substandard, cheap products to be imported. Accepting the amendment would lead to the creation of the level playing pitch required. Brazil would prefer to manufacture outside the borders of the European Union to a lower standard or in bonded warehouses within the Union. This is something we have to prevent.
The adoption of the code is important because it levels the playing pitch, from a cost and competitiveness perspective, for ethanol produced in the European Union. The majority of European Union member states, including Sweden, Belgium, Slovakia, Hungary, Spain and Austria, have adopted the code, as Senator Norris pointed out. I understand from lobbyists and independent research that the cost implications in adopting this measure are insignificant. Senator Phelan has spoken to me about the issue on a number of occasion and will support the amendment.
Our other amendments would deal more fully with the fact that there is a proposal for the development of a 100,000 tonne bioethanol processing facility in Belview Port, County Kilkenny, which has the potential to create a large number of jobs that are very badly needed in the region. Senator Phelan will elaborate further on that. It is very important we support indigenous attempts at processing and job creation and our legislation should be predicated in that way.
Regarding the CEN standard, part of our country is signed up to European standardisation. The CEN standard for Europe dictates that we adopt this amendment. It is proposed that the adoption of the quality standard is applied also to ethanol sourced outside the European Union, which is the fundamental point of this amendment. I ask for support for it on that basis. It is a way of protecting indigenous industry and producers.
Our second amendment proposes that the capacity of domestic producers to supply bio-fuel to meet market demand be part of the criteria used by the Minister as he reviews the bio-fuel content and levels of bio-fuel production and use in our transport system, as proposed in section 3. It is important that we give specific protection to domestic production and the need for same. I made the point on Second Stage that recent Teagasc reports established that 100,000 hectares of Irish land are suitable for the production of the primary raw materials for indigenous bio-fuel processing and production. We have 100,000 acres that can produce the necessary materials without threatening food production in the country. It is important that we do this from the point of view of job creation, to assist farm incomes that have gone through the floor and for reasons of security of energy supply and sustainability. For every good objective reason we should protect our domestic industry and my party's second amendment is relevant to achieving that objective.
Amendment No.12 states:
In page 10, between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following:
"(b) the capacity of domestic producers to supply biofuel to meet market demand".
That should be a criterion and should be part of our statement within the legislation. It should form part of the ministerial review of the progress of the legislation on an ongoing basis. It is vital that we defend and support domestic production. It is worthy of note that 70% of bio-fuels supplied in Ireland to date have been imported. That is not acceptable. We need to move from imported to domestically produced bio-fuels.
It is also worthy of note that implicit in this legislation is a 1 cent per litre increase in the price of transport fuel. If that were to be the case it would be a tax on work in many rural communities and a disincentive to employment. It would contribute in its own small way to general inflation in our economy and to our lack of cost competitiveness. If that were to be the scenario for the best of reasons, such as to cope with the finite supply of fossil fuels and because of our commitment to reducing carbon emissions, then at minimum we should support the domestic indigenous production of both raw materials and processing at local level. It is not good enough to commit ourselves to an increase in the price of fuel if at the same time we do not actively and aggressively support domestic production. At least we would offset the disadvantages to our economy by encouraging job creation within the country and supplementing farm incomes. That is why this amendment should be accepted by the Minister. It is critical. The protection of domestic production should not be a matter upon which the House should divide.
Amendment No. 13 has a similar objective, again concerning the protection of domestic production and the insertion of that protection into the legislation. It notes "the various customs and tariff policies and other national policies across the European Union, in place to promote domestic production of biofuels to meet market demand" which place an obligation on native governments to support domestic production and processing and job creation at local level.
We are very happy to support the climate change strategy which involves the reduction of carbon emissions. We have no difficulty with that. Regarding imported bio-fuels it is also worth noting that the process of importation and bringing them into the country by shipping in itself creates carbon emissions. If one imports bio-fuels one defeats the objective of reducing carbon emissions because in the importation process one contributes to carbon emissions. That is self-defeating and is worthy of note as such.
Concerning the context of our support for the legislation on the grounds of the reduction of carbon emissions it is equally necessary, in the same context, to support domestic production. That is how we will reduce transport costs and emissions which will be critical to the success of the legislation. That is the first issue. Second, it is important that we do not contribute to a reduction of food supply and an inflation in food prices or, indeed, to the cutting down of the rain forest. Imposing the 99% requirement of the standardisation imposition in this country will help because cheaper imports will not be allowed to displace what should be domestic production. The argument in regard to unemployment and farm incomes, on a national level, should compel support for these amendments which can all be reasonably accepted.
I urge the Minister of State not to make it necessary to put these amendments to a vote. They will enhance the legislation rather than otherwise and on that basis they should be supported. It is not in the best interests of people outside this House such as the 437,000 unemployed people across the country, the farmers who have low incomes and those people in counties Carlow, Kilkenny and Waterford who are waiting for the facility to go into production. They are depending on us to accept reasonable amendments and to make the legislation foolproof in terms of domestic job production, farm incomes and the best climate change strategy due to the cost of the importation of bio-fuels. Realistically, and we have no illusions to the contrary, even with our amendments and with our Second Stage presentation suggesting caution on progression without domestic production, it will take time to reduce imports. However, we must begin the process immediately.
We are very concerned we would put the cart before the horse by adopting legislation and not organising our indigenous production. As I said on Second Stage, I am very concerned that the existing incentives for our farmers to produce the raw materials for bio-fuels are not sufficient at present and work needs to be done in this regard. I put this issue to the Minister of State and look forward to a response. While there have been tax breaks and so on, we also need stronger incentives for the bio-fuels processing plants. At a minimum by way of incentives for those plants, we need to adopt the standardisation that is implicit in these amendments. These are vital requirements in the legislation and I am concerned we would allow the Bill to go through without enshrining within it the necessary adjustments to ensure this.
My criticism of the legislation, as I outlined on Second Stage, is that it does not set out sufficiently clearly to project native jobs, native production and support for our farmers, nor does it set out sufficient parameters within it to eliminate the reduction of food supply or the cutting down of rainforests. I realise there are European norms to which we are signed up but this should be more implicit in our legislation.
The three amendments we propose are reasonable and I look forward to an initial reply, and, I hope, acceptance. I will come back to them if necessary.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan. He has been here frequently and this Bill is on a particularly important topic.
I concur with much of the argument put forward by Senators Norris and O'Reilly with regard to the need for redefinition to change the thrust and, in particular, to promote the development of indigenous industry in this area. We are using approximately 6 billion litres of hydrocarbon fuels per annum and we have declared we will move to a 4% bio-fuel obligation, which is somewhere in the region of 220 million to 240 million litres per annum. At present, we are at not much more than 20% production of that target and, therefore, there is considerable scope to expand.
I live almost as close as Senator John Paul Phelan to Belview Port and I am familiar with the proposals for it. However, it is not just a matter of that location as we probably need to do more in this regard. The Senators who spoke identified precisely what needs to be done, namely, to ensure the bioethanol should only be deemed to constitute a bio-fuel in the case of ethyl alcohol with an alcohol content of at least 99% volume, which is was what was put forward in the proposed amendment. It is also relevant that this applies in many other EU states at present.
If we fail to do this, we will continue to import from countries a long distance away, such as Brazil. A number of issues arise in this regard. We fully subscribed to the climate change agenda in the interest of the global environment as well as the global economy. Therefore, if we subscribe to that, we must adhere to good practice to ensure it happens. If we examine the import of any products from such a distance as Brazil, a considerable amount of CO2 is involved in the transportation. However, because it is Brazil, there are other concerns with regard to climate change in that area. As Senator Norris said, the increase we are imposing on the use of the arable land in Brazil for the growth of crops is actually pushing the beef industry further west and into the Amazon, with the deforestation and adverse affects that come from that.
One of the compelling arguments in this regard at any time but particularly in the current economic downturn, with the huge increase in unemployment, is that we would promote indigenous industry. Most economists now accept that while we will still require foreign direct investment, it is the growth of indigenous industry that will be the key to overcoming our economic difficulties and reducing unemployment levels to more acceptable and sustainable levels in the future. Not alone are we talking about the jobs in the production industries involved, but the ancillary services that go with that, not to mention the growth of the crops which will help an agriculture industry which is going through very severe difficulties at present. I would certainly ask the Minister to consider these amendments favourably with a view to bringing them back on Report Stage, if possible. We need to be positive in the way we construct our legislation so the climate for economic development and job creation is based on a strong foundation.
The other point, which has not been raised as yet and which has been put to me by people involved in the recovery of hydrocarbon resources and their use, is that there should be potential within that area for them to play their part in meeting this 4% obligation with regard to bio-fuels. I am unsure whether the reuse and recycling of this fits the biodegradable definition but the argument on reuse and recycling is one we subscribe to as a country and one in which the State, through its agencies, especially local authorities, has invested a lot of money. If it can be fitted into the definitions, it is something I would put forward for consideration.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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I will not repeat the points made by other speakers. I agree with the sentiments expressed by Senators Norris and O'Reilly and the strong case they have argued. I received the correspondence. Senator Norris tabled those amendments and I support the points expressed by previous speakers.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State. I am very disappointed with the attendance in the House today. This is a classic example of something that is really central to our debates on job creation, on the economy, on climate change and on energy security. I do not wish to make a personal criticism of anyone but there is a lack of understanding. It might be preferable to adjourn the debate and ask Members to study this legislation-----
David Norris (Independent)
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I can guarantee it will not be reported.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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----as it is crucial. This happens on a regular basis. Every agriculture, energy and climate change spokespersons should be in attendance for this debate. I will not rehearse Senator Norris's points but they reflect my point of view and that of all the speakers so far, including on the Government side.
This is crucial legislation and these proposals have the support of the whole agricultural community, the IFA and local communities everywhere and also the support of Irish industry. I can assure the Minister of State they have the support of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. This is social partnership, a proposal from civic society coming before the Minister of State.
The Minister of State may decide he will not accept these amendments and nobody will be the wiser because, as Senator Norris said, it will not be given a column inch. This is a technical issue and nobody will even include the reference in the amendment. We are appealing to the Minister of State to look at this proposal in an open way. I will remonstrate gently with my colleague and friend, Senator Joe O'Reilly, as I do not want to misunderstand a point he made. He made the point about the issue of attracting farmers into this area but that is not the issue we are discussing. I want that issue kept separate. We are not talking about incentivisation but rather about a level playing pitch. We want the Irish farmer to have a level playing pitch with the Brazilian producer. It took five years to convince the authorities on the question of beef and meat imports from Brazil and let us not go down the same road again.
We are dealing with very technical issues and we are dependent on the Minister of State to cut through the technicalities and accept that good points have been made by speakers and that some of them may be conceded.
Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I agree those are good points.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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This is too important. I am sure none of my colleagues would mind coming back to tease this out further. If there are flaws in our argument as articulated by Senator Norris, the Minister of State should deal with them one by one. I know the Minister of State has heard arguments from an other side and they need to be examined. Apart from the obvious advantages, the Irish plant in Waterford or Kilkenny-----
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is down there. Apart from the main argument, the other argument which needs to be examined includes carbon dioxide capture. Methane is 25 times stronger and more damaging than carbon dioxide. This plant can capture the carbon dioxide and it can be reused. We will save ourselves emissions costs and save ourselves paying for some of the carbon emissions trading units which the Government has had to include in the last two budgets. The plant also produces a product for livestock which has a ready market in farms all over Ireland.
The other counter-argument is to do with the price of wheat and this argument does not stand up to serious examination. As it stands, wheat prices would have to become 30%, 40% or 50% more expensive in order to make it unviable for this plant in Belview to deal with Irish-produced wheat.
Ireland grows winter wheat which is not common in most other European countries. It grows longer and has a higher level of yield. These are issues which I ask the Minister of State to consider so he can make our arguments to people who suggest a different argument to him. It is completely in line with Government policy and ticks the box in terms of energy security, job creation and an immediate improvement in the construction sector. Crucially, it will also mean that tax will be paid in Ireland.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It will mean increased tax revenue. We should invite the officials from the Department of Finance to come to the House to applaud us for making this case so they will be on our side and understand our proposal. This is also a question of sustainable rural development. If there is any downside to our proposal in terms of Government policy, I cannot find it. I acted as the Devil's advocate and went through the proposal with a fine-tooth comb and I cannot find the oppositional position on which, if the Minister of State and I were discussing it over a cup of coffee or a pint, would disagree. Senator O'Reilly made an important point. It would be really damaging for the House to divide on these issues.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It would be a disgrace and we would be a laughing stock. If aspects of our amendments need to changed, then they can be changed and if a similar amendment with a slightly different emphasis needed to be tabled, then the Government side should do that. However, the Minister of State should recognise that the amendment is a serious attempt to improve and extend the legislation. I can guarantee that by taking these amendments on board, the legislation will leave this House in a far enhanced, more acceptable and more deliverable condition. We need to look at the arguments being put forward by Brazil in terms of the changes it wants to make and this was dealt with by Senator Norris. The Brazilian argument is based on one single proposal, that they have to pay less taxation in Europe. This is their only argument. An old friend of mine used to say that when he hears people talking about principles, he often feels for his wallet. Any principle that can be reduced to a quantum of money is one that needs to be taken less seriously than others. This is about money. We make no bones about the fact we are talking about money and finance and investment in the Irish economy along with long-term sustainable job creation. I do not want to hear some of the other stuff.
The best name for "denatured" is poitín.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Those of us in the west of Ireland grew up in that environment.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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And in the west, the Leas-Chathaoirleach's own county would be well attuned. One of the requirements is that it would not be saleable as raw alcohol. I refer to head shops with denatured methanol or ethanol. This is the reason petrol or some other additive is added in order to ensure it is not potable. These are the issues to be considered. I do not wish to repeat the points made by Senators Norris and O'Reilly and by speakers on the Government side. I do not think I am misrepresenting the Government benches by saying that. I appreciate the points that have been made by Senator Walsh. It is important for the Minister of State to bear in mind that arguments can be made and legislation can be changed in the Seanad. This House is the most appropriate forum for an inherent examination of the issues in a way that is not necessarily based on party policy positions. The Members of this House put their shoulder to the wheel and move things on together in the interests of the country as a whole.
This proposal would help to tick the security of supply box and to provide the construction jobs I mentioned. It would support our agricultural sector, which could do with all sorts of help at the moment. It would increase tax revenue. More importantly, it is an environmentally friendly and sustainable industry. It would help to meet all the demands being made at domestic and EU levels.
I could speak about this issue for another hour, but all I would be doing is rehearsing or developing the points. I assume the Minister of State understands these issues. I am sure he accepts that Senators on all sides of the House have a sense of enthusiasm and commitment in this regard. It would be very demoralising if the Minister of State were to puncture the great enthusiasm and optimism we have showered on him for the past hour.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I will try not to repeat everything that has been said. I want to reiterate a few points. I welcome the Minister of State.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator can tell us about poitín production in County Kilkenny.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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We do not do poitín in Kilkenny at all.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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We are hoping to develop a 99% proof ethanol plant at Belview Port, the Port of Waterford, which is firmly located a number of miles into County Kilkenny. The port in question is just a few miles from where I live. It is also close to New Ross, where Senator Walsh lives.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I will bow to the Senator's superior knowledge on that issue.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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All they produce in County Kilkenny is Smithwick's.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I hope the Minister of State can take on board the gist of these amendments. It may be necessary to redraft the wording of the amendments proposed by Senators O'Reilly, Norris and O'Toole. Perhaps a Government amendment can be tabled on Report Stage. Senator O'Reilly is quite correct to say there should be no need to have a vote on this issue. Our sentiments on this section have been expressed by Senators on the Government side of the House.
Senator Norris said we have been lobbied in this regard. Every time Members of the Oireachtas meet their constituents, we are lobbied in some way. I suggest that the lobbying done in this instance by a group of people in south Kilkenny who want to bring a viable proposal to fruition was correct. Senator O'Toole hit the nail on the head when he said they were looking for a level playing field in which they could compete with those involved in ethanol and bio-fuel production in Brazil. I take my hat off to the Brazilian authorities for their economic efforts. The manner in which they have embraced bio-fuel production has had great knock-on effects for that country's economy, although its ecological effects are questionable.
It would be remiss of us not to do as much as we can in this legislation to promote the production of bio-fuel in this jurisdiction. There is a huge irony in the notion that we import 70% of the bio-fuel that is used in this country. At a time when we are talking about the protection of the environment and climate change, we are transporting huge volumes of bio-fuel over long distances to this country to be used in our economy. I am not expressing any anti-Brazilian feeling when I support these amendments and ask the Minister of State to consider them. As I have said, domestic producers deserve a level playing field.
I do not think anybody believes the development of a viable bio-fuel sector in this country will be a panacea for the agriculture industry. The possibility of the development of such an industry provides the potential for a floor in the market of cereal producers whose incomes have suffered substantially over recent years. Just as live cattle exports provide a floor in the beef market, the bio-fuel sector could provide a similar service for grain producers. It is particularly important in the aftermath of the sale a couple of weeks ago of Greencore's malting barley section to a British interest. This development went virtually unheralded in the media. Although there are a couple of small purchasers and merchants around the country, there are no large-scale malting barley purchasers left in Ireland as a consequence of Greencore's decision. The facility in question is now owned by overseas parties who might not necessarily have the interests of Irish agriculture at heart. It is important for the Oireachtas to do what it can in this legislation to put in place some kind of mechanism whereby that facility can be replaced.
I echo the sentiments of Senator Norris and others who spoke about the need to introduce tariff control. I understand that more than eight EU countries have imposed the level of tariff we are seeking in these amendments. Such a tariff has been introduced in Sweden, Portugal, Spain, Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and possibly other EU member states. It would be appropriate for us to introduce a similar level in this jurisdiction. This Bill gives us an opportunity to do so.
Senator O'Toole dealt in detail with some of the arguments that have been made against the development of a bio-fuel sector in this country. I agree with the sentiments he correctly expressed. There is no need for me to repeat them.
I feel strongly on this issue because the development of a bio-fuel plant has been proposed in south Kilkenny. There is a compelling economic argument for such a facility to be developed in my region. With the exception of Donegal, the south east was the region of Ireland with the highest level of unemployment throughout the Celtic tiger years. County Wexford, County Kilkenny and parts of County Carlow have traditionally had the highest unemployment levels in the country, when County Donegal is not included.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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That may have changed slightly since the start of our economic difficulties of the past three or four years, although I do not think it has changed a lot.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Many people do not realise that. We should grasp any opportunity for job creation in the south east. It may be necessary for the Minister of State and his officials to redraft the Opposition proposals as set out in these amendments. I hope that in his response, the Minister of State will say he can accept them now or, as a second resort, in modified form on Report Stage. I do not think we should miss this opportunity to shape this legislation in a way that would benefit Ireland's employment levels, the Department of Finance's tax revenue capabilities and this county's agriculture industry. I hope the Minister of State will accept the amendments.
Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to respond to amendments Nos. 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 28 and 32 together. I thank Senators Norris, O'Reilly, Walsh, McCarthy, O'Toole and John Paul Phelan for contributing to the debate on this matter. I assure them the Minister is very much on board in relation to the spirit of the proposed amendments. The national bio-fuel obligation will incentivise the sustainable growth of the indigenous bio-fuel market, support indigenous bio-fuel producers and expand production. The EU sustainability criteria will also provide a competitive advantage for Irish and other EU producers by ensuring non-EU imports meet strict environmental guidelines. We must, however, remain compliant with EU and WTO guidelines on trade, meaning we cannot restrict imports unfairly.
The amendments largely suggest Ireland should mimic the fuel standards in place in other member states, including Germany and France, which serve as an effective barrier to outright competition from imports outside the European Union. Essentially, there are two separate tariff codes – one for denatured or industrial and the other for food grade or agricultural. The latter is significantly higher at 19.2 cents per litre versus 10.2 cents per litre. Many member states have done this with the explicit aim of protecting domestic production such as in the Germans' bio-fuel quota Act and the French legislative equivalent.
The European Commission would have to be notified under Directive 98/34/EC as this type of initiative would be deemed to be a technical regulation. From a national perspective, the only substantial problem with the course of action is that the United Kingdom has not adopted such a measure. Given that we import 60% of our road transport fuel from the United Kingdom, such a measure could have the potential to substantially increase costs to Irish consumers, theoretically, as they would have to be supplied with a different blend of bioethanol.
The fact this standard is in widespread use across Europe means much of European production capacity is already geared towards producing the same. The bioethanol in use in Ireland probably already meets this standard. As such the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, is considering this with a view to making an amendment in the Dáil. We are in the process of notifying the Commission about this change, as required. This is known as a technical regulation. Once notification is lodged, we can then make the amendment in the Dáil. We would prefer to do it on Report Stage in the Seanad but because of the timing factors involved, it will arise on Second Stage in the Dáil. It is key to ensure the consumer will not be adversely affected by cost increases stemming from any such measure in this area. The concept of a deferred introduction is one the Minister is considering in that regard. I do not propose, therefore, to accept the amendments on the grounds that it would be pre-emptive to do so. I do not propose to accept the amendment to the Title on the grounds that it already deals with this issue in so far it is possible or appropriate to do so.
I thank Senators for their contributions. The spirit and content of their amendments will be approximated to the Bill when it reaches Second Stage in the Dáil.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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One cannot make amendments on Second Stage.
David Norris (Independent)
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It is perfectly clear we have won the argument in this House, a fact with which the Minister of State has agreed. There is universal support for the amendments and I am glad we have had the opportunity to table them. Will the Minister of State examine as urgently as possible any facility for accepting them in this House rather than in the Dáil, as the arguments for their acceptance was made here? The Seanad is always attacked for being redundant. This, however, is a damn good day's work, creating the possibility of 1,000 jobs being created in an economic black spot. We have met all the scientific, environmental and agricultural arguments. It is important, therefore, that the amendments are introduced in the Seanad, even if it is by the use of a deferred date.
The Minister of State knows there have been erred calls for the abolition of this House, yet today there is a scandalous absence of press representation – I accept The Irish Times is probably watching on the monitor - for one of the most vital debates in which I have ever taken part, as it secures jobs. I have received correspondence from people across the country in despair, as they are losing their jobs and houses. Today the Seanad has done something positive. We did not call for another head on a plate, blood on the walls or guts on the carpet, which is the routine in Parliament.
On competition law and tariffs, I have referred to the unanimous report from the United States, Brazil and the European Union which answered that argument. Since eight countries – Senator John Paul Phelan has suggested there are more - have introduced tariffs, I do not see any reason we should kowtow to the British. We should get on with it and have the amendments accepted in this House. Will the Minister of State give the Official Report of the Committee Stage proceedings to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to highlight the unanimous approval for the amendments and inquire as to why it is not possible to have them passed in Seanad Éireann?
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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The reasons behind my tabling these amendments were based on dealing with the jobs crisis by creating jobs at bio-fuel producer and post-producer level and achieving a reduction in carbon emissions to keep in line with our Kyoto Protocol and EU requirements. We won the arguments and the Minister of State has accepted them. However, it is disappointing that he cannot accept the amendments. I am sure the ordering of business in the House could facilitate the Government in sponsoring the amendments and tabling them on Report Stage in the Seanad. Why must it wait until Report Stage in the Dáil?
It is vital this legislation contains a specific commitment to job creation. I agree with colleagues that it is a disgrace there are no members of the media present for this debate which is of such critical importance that the young unemployed people need to hear it on radio and television. People outside the House will wonder to what degree our deliberations contribute to job creation. They are not interested in grandstanding or rhetoric; they want practical steps to job creation.
The amendments only aim to create nothing but a level playing pitch by protecting the indigenous bio-fuel industry. In doing so we would be sustaining and creating new jobs. There can be no higher objective for this legislative assembly when 437,000 citizens are without work. That is why I am asking that the amendments be accepted on Report Stage in the Seanad.
The United Kingdom imports 89% of its bio-fuel, a figure it will want to correct. Any bilateral agreement should achieve this. It cannot be repeated often enough that by virtue of importing bio-fuels, the Minister is creating more carbon emissions and failing to resolve the international problem as attempted by this legislation. It is self-destructive. It is bizarre and crazy that the Minister is attempting to reduce carbon emissions through this 4% obligation. In the structuring of the obligation in this legislation, the Minister continues to acquiesce to bio-fuels being imported from Brazil and elsewhere to Ireland, which will obviously generate carbon emissions. This defeats the objectives of the Kyoto Protocol and the objectives of the Copenhagen agreement when transferred into legislative format. It also defeats domestic commitments. Without attempting to be unnecessarily partisan, it is bizarre that such a proposal comes from a Green Party Minister.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I am sure Members would like join me in welcoming Archdeacon Gordon Linney and Mrs. Linney to the Gallery. They are very welcome.