Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re vacancy on the administrative panel; No. 2, motion re vacancy on the agricultural panel; No. 3, motion re Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children; and No. 4, Public Transport Regulation Bill 2009 — Report and Final Stages. It is proposed that Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, shall be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business and No. 4 shall be taken at the conclusion of Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive.

I remind colleagues that tributes to the late Senator Peter Callanan will be afforded to every Member of the Seanad at the appropriate time on which we shall consult his family in order that they can be present. I thank everyone who went to his funeral and who represented Seanad Éireann in such a distinguished way during the past two days.

Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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I would like to extend our sympathies to the families of the two serving members of the Defence Forces who lost their lives since the Seanad last sat. We should also express our concern for the wellbeing of Fr. Michael Sinnott who was kidnapped in the Philippines last week.

We should examine the issue of filling the vacancies in this House at this time. There is one vacancy on the Government side and one on the Opposition side. When regard is had for the fact that we are talking about saving money on behalf of the taxpayer and the concerns that have been expressed by the general public about us not being in touch in terms of how taxpayers' money is being spent, perhaps those two positions should be left vacant for the foreseeable future.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Will we do that for the one in the Dáil as well?

Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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We should consider that as well.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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So the Senator will consider that.

Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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We do not really have any say as to what happens in the Lower House.

We must bear in mind that there is huge anger and hurt and a perception that people in politics do not understand what the ordinary man and woman on the street is feeling right now. Regardless of whether it is true, people have a sense of anger about every politician representing the public. Such anger is expressed when they see €1 million payoffs and bonuses of €70,000. What really annoys the general public is when they hear the Minister for Health and Children state that she has no responsibility for how €15 billion worth of taxpayers' money is spent.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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It annoys the ordinary man and woman on the street when the Minister for Health and Children basically washes her hands of her responsibility for how taxpayers' money is spent. I ask that she comes into this House and clearly states what her responsibilities are to citizens in regard to health services, as perhaps she is basically saying her Department is no longer relevant and, therefore, one would have to ask why she is there in first place.

We have to examine this because we will be voting on a budget in eight weeks. The hard decisions that need to be made to protect our economy are difficult political decisions. The easier political decisions that can be made could have a detrimental effect on the recovery of our economy. We are avoiding this hard debate on the economy but we need to have it. We also need to have a debate promised by the Leader of the House on ministerial expenses and on the excesses in terms of the waste of taxpayers' money that were allowed to happen during the previous decade.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I note the revised programme for Government and offer my congratulations to the Green Party on attempting to add a human, caring element to the hard face of NAMA.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is a joint programme.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator could have fooled us.

Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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He was only there for the picture.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole to continue without interruption.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The provisions on education have given some hope to schools, parents and young professionals because, even if they did not include a lot, they showed somebody cared. The Government can learn a lesson from this. Concerns were expressed that Fianna Fáil might not play ball or that the Green Party would look a gift horse in the mouth rather than make progress. In the event, it was a master class in negotiation by the two parties.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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As a past member of the family, the Senator would know.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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We should learn from the experience by moving forward in other ways. A social contract is needed among all groups in society. The Government should give hard leadership by showing what needs to be done and sharing the problems with everyone in society in order to determine what our common objectives should be and agree a way forward. The space outside the gates of Leinster House will command high rents in the coming three months if the Government does not draw together the ordinary people who represent communities, interest groups, professional associations and the unemployed. All of us in the public arena have a responsibility to make that happen rather than leave it to a fight to have survival of the fittest. Let us pull the people together to deal collectively with these issues.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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I offer my condolences to the families of the two airmen who tragically lost their lives earlier this week and the family of Stephen Gately on his tragic and untimely death last weekend. Stephen was a source of great pride and inspiration for many and will be sorely missed.

Yesterday a number of us were briefed by the Irish Dental Association on the cutbacks in dental services across the country. Tooth decay is preventable if services are available but because of the recruitment embargo, the crisis in this regard is growing. In County Meath clinics are closing, with the result that children are being denied access to dental treatment. I ask the Leader to impress on the Minister for Health and Children the need to reconsider the recruitment embargo on health professionals in dentistry because otherwise our children will suffer in the long term.

Earlier this week the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, announced his intention to publish legislation to reduce blood alcohol limits. I commend him on his initiative which I am aware is not universally popular. However, we should consider his record in this area. Prior to the introduction of random breath testing in July 2006, on average there were 32 deaths each month on Irish roads, which figure subsequently fell to 25. Therefore, as a result of the introduction of breath testing, approximately 300 people are walking around towns and villages who would otherwise be dead. We ought to commend the Minister on his bravery and I offer him my support in dealing with the forthcoming legislation. It will not be popular but is needed. It will bring us into line with the rest of Europe and we will enjoy a further reduction in the number of road deaths.

John Carty (Fianna Fail)
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I was disappointed to read in a newspaper yesterday that the country had only one paediatric rheumatologist. As a sufferer, I am aware of the pain rheumatoid arthritis can cause and it is damnable that we have only one specialist for the 350 children awaiting a first appointment. We read in the newspapers that additional payments are being given to HSE executives. That money should be put aside to recruit a second rheumatologist in Crumlin Hospital. I do not know how children can bear the pain caused by rheumatoid arthritis. If they are not treated in time, they can suffer lifetime damage due to wasted muscles and deformed bones. I urge the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Health and Children to explain to the House why there is only one paediatric rheumatologist. It is time an additional consultant was recruited. The money spent on benchmarking in the HSE should instead be invested in a proper service for children.

Ciarán Cannon (Fine Gael)
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On 18 June my colleagues and I highlighted the damage the travel tax imposed by the Government in its revised budgetary arrangements would cause to the tourism industry. Many months later the tourism renewal group has finally come around to our opinion. We were criticised in June for rowing in behind the allegedly spurious claims of Michael O'Leary of Ryanair but Aer Lingus, CityJet, the tourism renewal group and the Commission on Taxation have also recommended an immediate review of the travel tax. I suggested at the time that if the boffins and advisers within the Departments of Arts, Sport and Tourism, Transport and Finance wanted to encourage tourism, the last thing they should do was impose a tax on visitors to this country. It is time the decision was reviewed, although I do not have faith that the Government will do so. Even though the Minister for Finance described the VAT increase he had introduced as a disaster, he has not yet reviewed his decision, with the result that we continue to forsake a significant amount of tax revenue. In an equally nonsensical response to the request made by the three airlines for a review, the Department of Finance stated that if the tax was discouraging people from coming to Ireland, it should also be accepted that it discouraged people from leaving the country, thereby offsetting in part the impact it might be having on the tourism industry. If that is the wisdom from the Department, I am not surprised it imposed this tax.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I join Senator O'Toole in welcoming the publication of the new programme for Government. While I welcome the changes in the education sector, they will not make the forthcoming budget deliberations any easier. It is welcome that third level fees will not be contemplated because education will become increasingly important as we navigate the difficult years ahead.

Given that it will be some time before the National Asset Management Agency Bill 2009 comes before the Seanad, it would be useful to hold a debate on the business plan for NAMA which was published yesterday. It is a good plan which offers accountability and transparency but we could contribute to the ongoing preparations for NAMA by further examining it.

I ask the Leader to raise with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the embargo on promotions within the Garda Síochána. It has come to my attention that issues have arisen in several divisions on foot of retirements in supervisory ranks. While the number of gardaí is adequate, there are insufficient numbers of sergeants, inspectors and superintendents. I ask that the issue be raised with the Minister.

David Norris (Independent)
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When will the Leader give time to discuss in the House No. 31, motion 34 on the possible relocation of the Abbey Theatre? The Seanad played an important role in this. The idea was first floated here. It was enthusiastically supported by Senator Coghlan and, importantly, by the Leader of the House. Last weekend Senator Cassidy asked to see me and we had a discussion, and as a result of Senator Cassidy's interventions, it is now part of the programme for Government. This is welcome.

We need this kind of thing in a period of retrenchment. I was contacted over the weekend by a woman whose grandfather fought shoulder to shoulder with Pádraig Pearse and she said that she thought this would be the best memorial to her grandfather and the others. Yesterday's meeting of the arts committee placed a context in which we can locate this important theatre. I look forward to this being discussed.

I read an article by Mr. Patsy McGarry in The Irish Times about a leading comedian whom I will not name and remarks he made about the Holocaust in Auschwitz. I went back then and read what had been said and thought it was simply unspeakably awful. It was a real obscenity. I do not believe in censorship but this is not pushing the boundaries of comedy at all. It is something about which I, as an Irish man, felt deeply ashamed. Of course, I also deplore the use of the Holocaust for political reasons by the Israeli Government but that does not excuse this kind of thing. I hope that the person concern will find it in his heart to apologise.

My colleague, Senator Hannigan, mentioned the tragic death of Mr. Stephen Gately, whose name was mentioned. Everybody feels sympathy. He was a remarkably talented, decent and nice young man of whom everybody spoke well. I was saddened to note that in all the official condolences I read there was no mention of his partner. He had a legally contracted spouse and it is a pity that nobody found it in his or her heart to express compassion to him, particularly because I remember when the great actor Micheál Mac Liammóir died in the days when homosexual behaviour between males was criminal that the President, Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh, walked across and shook hands with the bereaved partner, the late Hilton Edwards, and said, "I am sorry for your trouble, Hilton". We all knew what that meant. That was the traditional greeting to the bereaved spouse. That was a great day for decency in Ireland and I hope that sympathy can now be extended officially to Mr. Gately's partner.

Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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Noting comments made already by Senators O'Toole, MacSharry and Norris, I ask the Leader that an opportunity be taken in this House to debate formally the newly agreed programme for Government. I lack a certain critical distance from it, but the House and the Oireachtas would benefit from having such an early debate. While it has been presented with some new priorities, it is a document grounded in the sense and reality that we need in the current time.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It would make an interesting debate anyway.

Senators:

It is not grounded in anything.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Grounded. They could not spell it.

Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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If the Leader is so minded, an early opportunity to have such a debate will be to the benefit of both the programme and the House.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I ask the Leader, as I have done on many times, for a debate on prisons in light of the disturbing news that the Irish prison population has exceeded 4,000 for the first time ever. According to the Irish Penal Reform Trust, this exceeds safe custody limits. Indeed, one need not be told that by the trust. I urge any Senator who has not already do so to go into Mountjoy Prison, as I have done on many occasions — indeed, I have brought my students from Trinity College — to see the appalling conditions in which we ask people to survive. This is not in any way to excuse or to justify the crimes for which they are in there, but it is brutalising and dehumanising of individual men to place them five or six to a cell built for one or two men and to have them slop out, that is, to perform toilet functions, in front of other people. It is distressing to read that the prison population has exceeded 4,000 because that means Mountjoy Prison is full of overcrowded cells. I would ask the Leader for a debate on this.

I also ask for an answer to the question I have asked many times as to what is happening with Thorton Hall. I have spoken against the idea of expanding the number of prison places because we need to look again at sentencing policy and why we are sending so many people to prison for minor non-violent offences. However, we need to see as a matter of urgency reform of prison conditions to ensure prisoners are not living in inhumane conditions. Thornton Hall is McDowell's folly. It was a plan instituted by former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Michael McDowell, at a different time, and it should be moth-balled. Instead, we should see a commitment given to reform of the conditions in Mountjoy Prison and I ask the Leader for his answer on that.

I congratulate Senator Norris on his excellent article in The Irish Times today on the potential move of the Abbey Theatre to the GPO and I support his call for a debate on this. It is important we debate it. I fully support the idea that the Abbey Theatre should be relocated there but I would say that we need to preserve some sort of working post office function in the GPO because it is important that the facade is not closed during the daytime and that on such an important street, the main street in the city centre, there is activity going on there during the daytime if the Abbey Theatre is located there. When we saw Hollywood coming to Leinster House yesterday we should be reminded of the considerable economic benefit of the film industry and the theatre industry.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader of the House to have a discussion on the passing of legislation. I am having efforts to have the Registration of Wills Bill 2005, which I brought forward here as a Private Members' Bill and which was passed by this House, heard in the other House to have it passed into law but I am encountering major resistance from the Law Society, which is doing its utmost to frustrate the passage of this Bill. It is frustrating the will of this House. The Law Society, which has had many difficulties with some of its members recently, is doing its utmost to ensure there would not be a registration of wills Bill passed by the Oireachtas. The society does not wish to be associated with or work through this system. It prefers to have a situation where all the wills books are held by individual companies. Even in those companies which have been taken over by the Law Society, some of the books have been mislaid and people have been deprived of their rightful inheritance. I demand the Law Society to represent, and solicitors throughout the country should ensure it represents, the good decent hard-working solicitors of this country who face enormous challenges and whose liability insurance has increased to €24,000 per member.

Not wishing to anticipate any other Senator's contribution to the House, the Council of Europe Convention on Action Against Trafficking in Human Beings has been signed by Ireland but has not been ratified. Another Senator may have other views on that issue.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I bring a serious matter to the Leader's attention. Galway Rape Crisis Centre has informed my that men are hanging around direct provision centres and hostels, openly soliciting women and children for trafficking in prostitution. It has further informed my that 20% of its clients seeking counselling following rape and sexual abuse are asylum seekers and refugees. When one considers that less than 1% of Galway's population is comprises asylum seekers and refugees, this is completely disproportionate. I want the Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Health and Children to commence an immediate investigation into this. Clearly something is wrong here. It costs €27,000 per year to keep an asylum seeker in these direct provision centres. If the social welfare system was used it would probably cost approximately €18,000 only, plus they have no dignity and no privacy. It is not working. I want to prevent the need for another Ryan report in ten years' time. From the facts I have received, we could be sitting on one, as it were.

I was delighted to see Mr. David McWilliams write in yesterday's Irish Independent that farming is integral to the smart economy in Ireland. The Government is presiding over the strangulation of farming. When a 110-cow dairy farmer is now on farm assist, it is an outrage. Does the Leader know how difficult it is to qualify for farm assist? It is very difficult. I am receiving calls from farmers who are on the breadline, particularly in Galway and elsewhere in the west where there are disadvantaged categories of land. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must see sense. He must be brought into the House.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate on agriculture?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We need an urgent debate on the matter. The REPS must be restored. It is co-financed by the European Union and it would make more sense than making payments from the Exchequer in the form of farm assist.

John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader for a debate on the economy. If anything demonstrates that this is a small open economy, it must be agriculture, in which we either benefit or suffer from commodity prices set abroad. It is a wholly international scene. There are food surpluses, which means that the price of product is being driven downwards.

In the debate on the economy there are many practical aspects we might consider. One is the fact that we have encouraged people, as part of the drive towards a green economy, to build windmills. This has applied particularly to farmers. The repayment schedule for a windmill is 14 years with the current VAT rate. If the rate were changed to reflect the fact that the windmills are an integral part of the business, this would enable a farmer to make a return in less than ten years, making it viable for him or her to go to the bank to look for money to erect a windmill. The average cost is €54,000, a large percentage of which is accounted for by VAT. It would be a practical initiative. In addition, it would help to reduce our CO2 emissions and act as an import substitute, as we would need to buy less foreign oil to generate electricity.

Perhaps in the debate we will also consider other practical measures. Every so often it is timely to consider taxes that do not generate revenue and may actually cost money. In particular, we might consider the VAT rate in comparison to that in Northern Ireland. We might also consider whether there would be merit in removing the €10 tourist tax at airports if it would encourage more people to come to our shores.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I support the call for a regular debate on the economy. Yesterday it was reported in Brussels that the Irish Government had asked EUROSTAT, the European statistical body, to relax its rules on describing government debt. I will explain this. We have seen a tripling of the public debt in recent years. The Government has reportedly asked EUROSTAT not to treat the NAMA debt of perhaps €54 billion as public or government debt. I can understand the reason it is doing this, if it can get away with it. That debt would no longer be government debt, which would give us a better chance of reaching the figures we are supposed to reach. However, it seems very much like a cover-up. If the story is correct, I would like an answer from the Minister as to whether this is what it is hoping to achieve. If so, is it not an attempt to mislead us and the European Union?

On another point of news from yesterday, the US state of Colorado, for the first time ever, has reduced its minimum wage. This was not a decision of the Colorado Government. The minimum wage is linked with inflation and thus will come down in a time of deflation. I mention this because I believe some jobs are not available at certain minimum wage rates. I refer, in particular, to the hospitality sector, in which some jobs are threatened. If we have had deflation, this is perhaps the time to consider whether these jobs could be re-established if we were to consider once again the system by which we establish the minimum wage.

Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I too would like a debate on the economy, particularly with regard to the points raised by Senator O'Toole about the new programme for Government and the education sector. It is all about second-chance education. One need only watch the television to see the queues every day and evening for new courses. It is important to have co-ordination between the Departments of Education and Science and Enterprise, Trade and Employment because there is looseness and much duplication.

I would welcome a debate on the relocation of the Abbey Theatre to O'Connell Street, which is where it should be located. There is a major block development in one area of O'Connell Street; therefore, this is an ideal opportunity to find a place for the theatre between the GPO and Upper O'Connell Street. There is a whole area that could be developed. It is a magnificent site on which the Abbey Theatre should be located.

It has been mentioned we should have a discussion about the Irish Dental Association, the fees charged by dentists and how they do their business. I would welcome a discussion on all consultants' fees. A person who spoke to me the other day said he had gone to see a consultant for five minutes and that it had cost him €150. There is something wrong with that at a time like this when we are all considering how we can cut back. Consultants have a golden opportunity to consider their position and how best they can help people, particularly vulnerable persons who may be members of the VHI but still have to pay to visit consultants. For both consultants and dentists, we should compare fees with those charged in other countries. Perhaps we now have an opportunity to open up a discussion on such matters, allowing the professional associations to come and talk to us about them.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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The wrong and brazen acceptance of a €70,000 bonus by Mr. Drumm in the HSE gives rise to my request to the Leader for a debate on the fact that we have, effectively, two Departments of health. We have the Department of Health and Children, a big Department based in Dublin, with a highly expert Civil Service staff whose members attained highly in school to achieve entry, and around the country, under the auspices of the HSE, an alternative health Department with equal or greater numbers employed. I ask the Leader to explain the differences in the jobs done by the two Departments. Could we have a discussion on the considerable waste that results from having a Department of Health and Children, staffed to the brim with the best of people, in Dublin and at the same time an entire Department outside Dublin in the form of the HSE which has a whole system of bonuses, even in a year when there was underperformance?

Eoghan Harris (Independent)
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I commend Senator Norris, the Leader and everyone else associated with the proposal to relocate the Abbey Theatre to O'Connell Street. There is a serendipity, historical and cultural, about such a move. To know there is a cultural resonance about it, we do not have to be reminded of Yeats's great line:

Did that play of mine send out

Certain men the English shot?

However, it is also a reminder of the men of 1916, about whose act I have my own reservations but who did not ask anybody to do anything they did not do themselves. They gave us a lesson in moral leadership. We are now facing a time of great choices as we approach the budget. It behoves every party in the House to face up to the fact that to get the public finances under control we will either have to tackle the poorest of the poor or the only class left with any money, the public sector. I accept that the members of the public sector have no moral obligation to carry the can, but, nevertheless, they must step up to the plate. To help them to do this, the political class has an obligation to give the same moral leadership; to lay themselves on the line first. We need a cut in the pay of the political class and to give leadership. It is disturbing to hear the leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Gilmore, has ruled out any cuts in public sector pay, since without them the public finances cannot be brought under control. Therefore, there is an obligation on the leaders of Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, the Green Party and other parties to discuss with each other how they can give the moral leadership that the men of 1916 gave. It would be good if Oireachtas Members could leave behind two great monuments from a very grim, sordid and dreary time: the Abbey Theatre in O'Connell Street and a cut in their own pay to give leadership, as the men of 1916 did.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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In the light of what Senator Harris said, it was appropriate to hear the comments of Senators Twomey and O'Reilly about the bonus paid to the head of the HSE. It is completely and utterly indefensible at this time. With that in mind, I ask the Leader of the House what is going on in semi-State agencies. A year and a half ago I asked him for a debate on FÁS but he would not take up the baton. Look at what has happened since. I ask him and Fianna Fáil what is happening in the HSE and, particularly, CIE. Can we have a debate on what is happening in CIE? It has emerged that these semi-State and State agencies are independent republics that have run amok.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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There is no question that they are answerable to a Minister and these Houses but they do not seem to think so. We need a debate on CIE, in particular, because it receives €320 million a year from the taxpayer and I do not have the foggiest notion where that €320 million goes. Neither does anyone else in the House. A report on CIE was published last week and leaked. I have an interest to declare, but the report found there had been collusion on contracts — the word "fraud" was used throughout the document which mentioned the manipulation of contracts and theft. The report, made to the CIE board, was never given to the Minister. It was not even offered to him. We do not know how many millions of euro were lost, but I suggest it will run into double figures. The Minister has now received a copy of the report which CIE, as an independent republic, considered it was better not to give him. Perhaps we could take the lead in this matter rather than burying these issues, as we have in the past, and agree to talk about them because for some reason many State agencies and semi-State bodies appear to be politically protected. That is not acceptable and a way of removing that protection is to debate them openly in the House.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I do not know if my colleagues think the way I do. Many serious topics have been raised and I am totally frustrated with Members calling for debates on these issues because I find debates in the Seanad farcical. The only time we have robust speeches is on the Order of Business. For God's sake, will someone try to provide for some form of interactive discussion? We must talk about the economy. The country faces serious problems. Indigenous companies which are trading with Britain are in serious trouble because of the strong euro and it could be said we face bankruptcy. I am bored stiff when we have statements on the economy or poverty. I would love to have a proper on discussion on suicide but I am pulling my hair out because I cannot get it onto the political radar. I ask the Cathaoirleach, the Leader and the Whips on all sides to bring this Chamber into the 21st century in order that we can——

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, the Whips have no input into the ordering of business.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I am making a serious point. Our reputations are gained as Senators, the Members of the Lower House can look after themselves. My reputation as a politician has been seriously sullied in the last few weeks and I want to see some response. Let us energise this Chamber and not just have debates where the Minister comes in and reads a script. Senator Ross called for a debate on semi-State bodies, while Senator Quinn raised the serious issue of the minimum wage. I hear Members of this House speak on the radio using political jargon, with cheap talk about the minimum wage and labour costs. They need to wake up.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should come over and join us. We have a few seats.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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This is not just about the Government, it is also about the trade unions. Will the multinationals stay here when labour costs are so high? We must wake up.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I have been energised by Senator White's remarks because she is absolutely right.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer does not need energising.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator must be heard without interruption.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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He is a master at it. He is first in the class when it comes to interrupting and I can prove it.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I will ask the Senator to leave if he keeps that up.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The people are angry, unhappy and astounded at the latest revelation that the head of the HSE will receive a bonus of €70,000. What is happening? Where is the accountability? Is anyone in charge? I want a debate on accountability in FÁS. The Tánaiste knew nothing, while the Minister for Health and Children is not in control of the HSE and tells us it is not her department. No Minister claims responsibility for the NRA, CIE or tourism. It is time we had answers to questions about who is responsible for the running of Departments and the agencies attached to them.

I am also calling for a debate on the programme for Government. I am sorry my good friend Senator Boyle is missing because I completely disagree with Senator O'Toole.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not refer to anyone who is not in the Chamber.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I have said I am sorry he is not here. The programme for Government is not the human, caring face of the Government; it is complete rubbish, a work of fiction aimed at one thing and one thing only, keeping Senator Boyle and the Green Party in government and preserving the life of the Government. I conclude by asking for a debate on what is now being called the three act play of the programme for Government. The negotiation is the beginning of the end, the signing of the agreement is the spin and we will soon have the future, the execution of the Government by the people. The sooner that happens the better.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Sadly, there is trouble in Paradise again. Yesterday pickets were place on the gates of our greatest national park in Killarney by the Muckross jarveys. This matter was before the High Court earlier this year.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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It is sub judice.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It is not; I am being careful in that regard. The recommendation of the High Court judge was that a mediator or facilitator be appointed. The facilitator has now given up. I have discussed the issue with my Fianna Fáil colleague, Senator Daly, who is also interested in it and we suggest a mediator be appointed instead of a facilitator. There is a subtle difference and both parties would have to engage with him or her. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government should ensure the National Parks and Wildlife Service which is responsible for management of the park allows for full and proper engagement.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Why does the Senator not mediate?

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Can we also have a debate on banking policy because of the trouble about which we have read this morning? I also call for a debate on the matter to which Senator Ross referred, namely, the scandalous CIE report which the Minister has now received.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Feargal Quinn referred to the national debt and how the Government bonds, which will be issued to finance NAMA, will be categorised. It is potentially an issue of false accounting and it brings the national debt back to the bad old days of Charlie Haughey in the early 1980s when the debt was more than 120% of gross national product.

That is a sad reflection on this Government given that the Taoiseach had as one of his objectives the elimination of the national debt. It was also Government policy. It shows how matters have deteriorated and how Government policy has led us to this situation.

I refer to another matter of potential false accounting, namely, the projection of a €5.5 billion profit from NAMA. I appreciate the Minister for Finance wants to put the best possible gloss on this operation——

Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Spin.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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——in particular to ensure the legislation is passed by the Houses of the Oireachtas and wins the support of the Green Party and the Independents. On the basis of the figure of €5.5 billion, the different assumptions made in terms of interest rates, recovery of property values and the development of the economy, the risks inherent in these calculations are self-evident at this point when one considers the value of one of the assets which will come within the responsibility of NAMA, namely, the Irish glass bottle site which has been reduced in value by 85%. These are the types of loans NAMA is taking on.

While the Minister has a political objective to put a gloss on this, is he falsifying the accounts in this way to avoid the strictures of EU state aid rules being applied to NAMA because of the inherent and significant subsidy to the Irish banking sector? Will the Leader address that specific question?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I join with Senator Ivana Bacik in calling for a debate on the Irish Prison Service. The number of prisoners in Irish jails has exceeded 4,000 for the first time. That does not include 500 prisoners on temporary release to ease overcrowding in jails.

The inspector of prisons, Judge Michael Reilly, stated that lives are being put at undue risk due to chronic overcrowding. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform needs to come to the House to explain what he intends to do to ease the overcrowding. What is the situation in regard to Thornton Hall? Is it moth-balled or no longer going ahead?

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform needs to come to the House to explain what he intends to do to deal with the chronic overcrowding in our jails.

Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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I join with my colleagues in calling for a debate on the revised programme for Government. It is essential we have such a debate because our country is broke and we are borrowing €400 million per week to stay afloat. We face the prospect of 500,000 people unemployed and negative equity becoming a reality for tens of thousands of homes. This programme for Government is grounded in the desire to stay in office for as long as possible.

I want the following questions answered in the debate which I ask the Leader to organise. How much money will this new programme for Government cost? We spent the first half of this year in convulsions because we had no money to spend but suddenly over a weekend money was found out of nowhere to do all that is in the programme. How will that enable us to lead our country through the harsh decisions which must be made in order for us to survive and for my children not to face the prospect of emigration which I, and my predecessors, faced?

From where will the money for this programme come? What taxes will increase? What will be cut? If those questions are not answered, the programme for Government is not only fiction but it will set us back because it will add to the perception that this Government and those around it will do whatever is needed to stay in office for as long as possible.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I call for a debate on how we will prioritise cuts. I am sure I am like most Members in that I have met many groups which have asked for meetings because they are scared to death of what is proposed in the McCarthy report. I am embarrassed to say to them that the Seanad has not even discussed the report. Will the Leader organise a rolling debate on it because many good organisations are concerned about what will happen to the good work they do?

I met the Western Development Commission yesterday and today I note that Inclusion Ireland has made the very valid point that there must be no cuts in frontline services to people with disabilities and in the rates of social welfare payments to carers. There are many such groups and it is impossible to know what to say to them.

What Senator Eoghan Harris said is absolutely right. There is a crying need for leadership in this country. The top earners and those who have resources at their disposal must lead from the front. We will have to go where we would rather not go. That is the only way we will assuage the anger of many good people in this country.

Last week I believe Senator David Norris spoke about hearing the sound of the tumbrils in the streets. There is considerable anger. It is not only those who are looking for a row who are angry but it is good people who feel they have been done a massive disservice by the political class. The only way to lance that boil and prevent further social discord is for the political class, whether elected representatives or those in receipt of bonuses of various kinds, to start to show serious leadership. Then and only then can we even begin to contemplate cuts to services which are vital to the more needy in our society.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I join with Senators who have called for a discussion on the economy and, as Senator Rónán Mullen suggested, the McCarthy report. I also agree with my colleague, Senator Fidelma Healy Eames, who called for a debate on agriculture, especially in light of the fact so many people have lost jobs in the construction sector and are looking towards agriculture, at which they did not look for a number of years, for a viable future. That viable future does not seem to exist. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has not come to the House for a debate and he has been correctly the subject of much criticism recently because of the savage cutbacks delivered by the Government on agriculture and the rural community.

Will the Leader arrange a discussion with the Minister for Education and Science or the Minister for Transport, whoever is directly responsible for school transport? Last year or the previous one, the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Haughey, gave a commitment that the catchment area boundaries would be revisited. They were established in the late 1950s to early 1960s. There have been significant cutbacks in funding for school transport, and there will be more. In my region, the south east, funding has been cut by almost one third this year alone. If catchment areas were updated, the Government might save more money in outlay and deliver a service for families and children who cannot get to the schools they attend because of the outdated catchment area boundaries drawn up in the late 1950s and early 1960s. I urge the Leader, as a matter of urgency, to ensure this issue is covered in advance of the budget.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The time for contributions is up. I apologise to the five Members who have not been able to make their contributions. I tried to take people who indicated early on the Order of Business ahead of those who came in later.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Twomey, O'Toole and Hannigan expressed their condolences on the death of the two serving members of the Defence Forces who lost their lives in that horrific air crash. I join with them and on behalf of the House send our condolences to the families of these two lovely young men with so much to offer our country whose lives have been cut off in their early years.

I also want to be associated with the condolences expressed on the death of Stephen Gately. He was a talented individual who had achieved much. I sympathise with the boys from Boyzone, his family, his partner, Louis Walsh and everyone in the world of entertainment who knew him. The world of entertainment is a small family, but it is a tremendous ambassador for our country. The success we have had per capita in this area over the years is the highest in the world.

I too hope, pray and wish that Fr. Michael Sinnott will be released at the earliest possible time.

Many Senators called for a debate on the economy, including, Senators Twomey, O'Toole, Hannigan, MacSharry, Boyle, Hanafin, Quinn, Ormonde, Harris, Mary White, John Paul Phelan, Mullen, Donohoe and O'Regan. I have no difficulty with a debate on this issue and I welcome the programme for Government. I understand the disappointment on the Opposition benches at the prospect of another two and a half years and the progress that has been and can be made.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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The disappointment of the people.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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In the national interest, the last thing the country wanted was a botched put together general election.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Leader is out of touch, just like the Government.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader, without interruption.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I fully understand and take into account when making my replies that 35% of the 60 Members of the Seanad are new Members.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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We are around a while, all the same.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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This is something with which we must be patient, but they too will have the experience and how uplifting it will be for the House when that happens.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I hope the Leader is right.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please allow the Leader to reply.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Hannigan raised the matter of the recruitment of professionals. I will make his strong views known to the Minister. I will also pass the Senator's views on to the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, our colleague in our constituency, with regard to his achievements in his portfolio. The Minister will be in the House later this morning with the Public Transport Regulation Bill.

Senators Carty and O'Reilly outlined to the House the serious situation faced by 350 children and many sufferers who are on waiting lists. This is unacceptable, particularly if patients are in pain that may affect them for the rest of their lives. We will have the Minister for Health and Children in the House within the next two to three weeks so that we can deal with all requests regarding the health portfolio. We know the Minister is very forthright and in touch with her portfolio. From a statistical point of view, the House has been kept well informed during the period of her Ministry on the up-to-date situation. I know many Members are extremely concerned about the budget and the spending of €16 billion in the health portfolio. The Minister will be in the House within the next two to three weeks and we will have an open-ended discussion then on the health portfolio.

Senator Cannon raised the issue of travel tax and the views of the Commission on Taxation on that and on the importance of tourism. In the bad old days from 1983 to 1987 we were paying 65% income tax and a health levy. Hopefully, we will not return to those days. We must use the experience of those of us who were here at the time and in the other House to ensure that one of the three planks that brought the economy to the Celtic tiger days, namely tourism, has all the friends it can get. I agree with Senator Cannon on this matter and will organise a debate with the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism in the next few weeks so we can see what we can do to help an industry under siege, whether from bankers or developers. The tourism industry faces a serious challenge no-one could have foreseen as a result of the situation in which banks and builders have found themselves.

Senator MacSharry outlined to the House his concern with regard to the embargo on promotion in the Garda Síochána. I will pass on his strong views. Many other Senators have spoken to me about this and I fully support Senator MacSharry's call for a debate. We will see what we can do and also have a debate on justice and all that pertains to prisons, as required by Senators Cummins and Bacik who have concerns with regard to prison services and Thornton Hall. I understand some 500 new prison spaces are being opened this year. The Minister was in Castlerea a few weeks ago where he opened a new facility. That said, our population has increased by 1 million and all areas and Departments are under pressure due, on the one hand, to this success and on the other, to scarce resources at a time of global downturn. I will ensure a debate takes place on prison services, promotion in the Garda Síochána and other issues raised in this regard this morning.

Senators Norris, Bacik, Ormonde and Harris welcomed the announcement in the programme for Government of the relocation of the Abbey Theatre to the GPO site, particularly with regard to commemorating the men and women who gave their lives in 1916 and the centenary celebrations. I assure the House that I worked hard to have this happen last week. I thank Senator Norris and other colleagues for the support they gave me so this could take place. There is never a wrong time to do the right thing. This would be something of which the people could be proud and we could all say we played our part in having it included in the programme for Government.

Senators Hanafin and Healy Eames called for a debate on agriculture and the challenges facing farmers. I will organise a debate with the Minister. I will also organise a debate on the green energy aspect, including on wind turbines. Senator Hanafin suggested the cost of green energy could be a serious deterrent due to VAT and the cost of setting up wind farms. Repayments could take 14 years, but if VAT was not included repayments would only take ten years. Wind energy could generate an alternative income for our farming community. Being an island nation, we should be an exporter of energy. What a turnaround that would be for Exchequer returns considering the challenges facing us due to the need to import gas and oil on a daily basis. Senator Leyden sought to be updated on the Government's position regarding the Registration of Wills Bill and he had particularly strong views as regards the Law Society. The Oireachtas and the Judiciary have always adhered to separation of powers as regards the manner in which they carry out their respective duties. This is a serious statement by Senator Leyden and if what he says is correct, then this must not be allowed to happen. In fairness, it has not happened in the past. I fully support him and I shall seek to update the House in this regard and find out where the Bill is as at as regards the Dáil.

Senator Healy Eames referred to the Galway Rape Crisis Centre and the challenges being faced by the good people there who are trying to assist those unfortunate women who are in need of this service. Perhaps this might be included in Fine Gael Private Members' time, which is scheduled to arise shortly. We shall see whether it may be debated as a matter of urgency in the next week or two.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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This is a national story.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No interruptions, please.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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There is so much legislation coming before the Seanad including major issues such as agriculture and health that are before the House this morning that I will not have time in the diary from now until Christmas, unless we are to sit on Mondays and Fridays.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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We have the most stupid debates.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No interruptions, please.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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We have NAMA and social welfare and a great deal of other legislation coming before the House for our consideration. I am being honest with the Senator having regard for the sincerity in which the call was made on me for time to have this included. I make——

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader wants to take the one slot in the week that the Opposition gets.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Phelan might take it up with his leader and the Whip on the Fine Gael side.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader without interruption.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Quinn and White spoke about reductions in the minimum wage. In fairness, these are two Senators with their finger on the pulse, given that their record as regards employment creation down through the years, as captains of industry, has been exemplary. The comments by those Senators this morning were not made without careful thought. I shall certainly pass the message onto the Minister as a matter of urgency in relation to the compilation of the budget and what has to be done to sustain employment and keep people in jobs, particularly as regards the leisure and tourist industries.

Senator Ann Ormonde raised the matter of consultants' fees and called for this matter to be seriously debated. I believe this is a matter for a joint committee of the Oireachtas, to see what can be done. Perhaps we can discuss a short report on this from the joint committee in the Seanad to determine how we shall meet the challenge as regards consultants' fees. They appear to be very high and under no circumstances have I heard of a consultant reducing his or her fees during this downturn. Senator Harris has already responded as regards the leadership now needed in the country, particularly as regards the men and women of 1916, and everyone in public life. He said we should lead by example as regards the challenges being faced by public servants, who are among the few groups to have jobs at present. We can discuss this during the debate on the economy, which I hope will take place in the next two weeks.

Senators Ross and Buttimer comprise a combination that I have always listened to attentively, as the House knows. They called for a debate on the semi-States, particularly in relation to CIE and the €320 million per annum as well as FÁS and all the other State-owned companies. This is a very good idea and I can confirm to the House that it will take place within the next couple of weeks.

Senator Mary White again highlighted the challenge facing society as regards suicide. I thank Senator White for all she is doing in this regard. Deputy Dan Neville, a former Senator, is doing everything he possibly can also, and I certainly will allow time for this. I shall discuss with the Senator after the Order of Business how this debate might be facilitated. This House should do everything it can as regards this major challenge for society.

Senator Regan raised the matter of the Department of Finance's forecast of €5.5 billion in relation to NAMA. Everyone knows that the most conservative group of civil servants are the officials in the Department of Finance. If these officials agree there can be a €5.5 billion return on the NAMA challenge that is facing the Government at present, then it quite possibly can be achieved. If the economy recovers within the next couple of years, depending on what is happening in the United States, the UK etc., there will be an opportunity for major benefits for the Exchequer. Because so much property is scheduled to be involved in the setting up of NAMA, it has to be done on a structured basis. All of it cannot hit the marketplace at the one time. It is strongly believed in the business community that about 70% of all the holdings which are in difficulty because of the lack of demand may in some way or other still be taken on by the innovators, creators and risk takers who set them up in the first place. If such people were completely taken out of the equation and not allowed to participate and continue to employ the thousands they have employed over the years, there would be very few entrepreneurs left. The primary challenge facing the Government is to get funds into circulation. No one is lending money at present for people who want to buy cars, houses or anything else. I have no difficulty in arranging for a debate in relation to NAMA or banking, as has been requested.

Senator Coghlan raised the issue of Killarney and Muckross national park——

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It is Killarney National Park.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Again, the Senator can take that matter up in Private Members' time and get the up-to-date position.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Giddy up, giddy up.

Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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Ask Deputy John O'Donoghue——

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator John Paul Phelan called for a debate on school transport and catchment areas. I certainly shall request a debate and ask for the Minister of State with responsibility for this area, Deputy Seán Haughey, to update the House on the matter.