Seanad debates
Thursday, 24 September 2009
Order of Business
10:30 am
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Public Transport Regulation Bill 2009 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business, with spokespersons having 15 minutes to speak, all other Senators ten minutes, on which Senators may share time by agreement of the House, and Second Stage to adjourn at 2 p.m. if not previously concluded. The Minister shall be called upon for closing comments at the conclusion of Second Stage.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader ensure adequate time is provided for consultation on the Bill with interested parties? Will a good break be provided for between Second and Committee Stages to allow for such consultation rather than rushing the legislation through?
Yesterday, we witnessed a new level of disunity and disagreement among Ministers on the way forward economically with the Tánaiste becoming the latest to rubbish the McCarthy report, yet the Minister for Finance said it would form the basis of the forthcoming budget. This is poor leadership by the Government at a critical time for the country and it does not inspire confidence regarding the tough decisions that must be taken in the weeks and months ahead.
I refer to another area in which there is a serious lack of leadership by the Government. I am a member of the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children and we were disturbed yesterday when the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Barry Andrews, announced that the Government would revert to the wording of the 2007 legislation which provided poor protection for children. All parties represented on the committee had decided a new wording was needed but the Minister of State said the Government would row back to the original wording. The Chairman of the committee, Deputy O'Rourke, expressed the view that she did not agree with this; therefore, we are in limbo about what will happen regarding a constitutional amendment on children's rights. The Green Party made no submission to the committee. Is the new position a Government position? Does the Green Party agree with it? Where now for children's rights?
Senators were concerned earlier this year about the Ryan commission report. A report was subsequently published by the Government to implement the commission's findings. It is time the Minister of State was invited to the House to discuss these vital issues. It is disturbing that it looks like the Government parties have lost the heart and the will to lead on the issue of children's rights and do not have the confidence to put a strong constitutional amendment to the people. They have lost courage and are not leading on this critical issue which was highlighted in the Ryan report. The Minister of State should come to the House as soon as possible to outline the Government's views and why it has taken this decision, which is a retrograde step. We spent months at the committee working on a new wording, yet the Government has rowed back on it. This is serious and I would like the Minister of State to come to the House to give us the full picture.
The Minister of State brought the Adoption Bill 2009 through the House and subsequently addressed the House on the bilateral agreement with Vietnam without ever putting the full facts about it on the table. Many aspiring adoptive parents want to know the facts about the agreement. What will happen? When will it happen? Will there be no agreement? If so, what are the proposals for parents caught up in this issue?
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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It is causing untold stress. As a number of Members said yesterday, if the House is to mean anything, will the Minister of State come and put the facts before us? He did not do so when he attended the House previously. We need the facts and the truth; the parents deserve no less.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Yesterday I raised the need for a debate on the public sector and how it operates etc. I received a number of queries afterwards about the recent report which came to the conclusion that public servants were paid 25% more than private sector workers. I will give one example to show how wrong is that report. No job assessment or measurement of the input or output of a job was used. None of the jobs was examined. The report was based on demographics, qualifications and age. For example, if it were applied to the Taoiseach's post, the outcome would be that the Taoiseach's pay should be that of a 47 year old solicitor living in a midlands town. I do not say that is right or wrong but this is an example of how the report is unrelated to what is happening in the public sector. Members, particularly those on the Government benches, should be keenly aware of this. I acknowledge the public service issue and that public service pay needs to be dealt with in an appropriate way but the report that emerged this week is misleading and unhelpful.
On a number of occasions I have raised the need to deal with the question of the North-South Ministerial Council. I wrote to the Minister for Foreign Affairs about the matter during the summer. Meetings take place regularly and Ministers return to Stormont to report on what they have done but no report is made by our Ministers to either the Dáil or the Seanad. I have suggested to the Leader who seems open to the idea that a Minister attached to the Department of Foreign Affairs should come to the House to give a summary of the work of the Council following meetings and that the same should also be done regarding the business of the European Union. On a monthly basis, a digest or precis of the key decisions and policies dealt with by the Union should be given to the House. The advantage of taking these two actions would be that diverse issues would be addressed and we would not have a dead House with only one or two speakers. The North-South report could concern three or four different ministries. It is important that the work of the Union and the North-South Ministerial Council be recognised. The Council will celebrate its tenth anniversary in December and I would like the House to mark it with a special debate on its work which is hugely important but which goes unrecognised. We should mark the occasion with a major discussion which could lead to something being held on a regular basis.
Senator Fitzgerald correctly referred to the necessity for consultation on the public transport legislation. One of the issues we have highlighted in the report on Seanad reform is that where Bills are initiated in the House, an invitation should be extended to interest groups to make presentations to a group of Senators on the issues involved. That would address the concern raised by Senator Fitzgerald. These are simple actions that we should take until such time as the Government parties get their act together regarding proper reform of the House.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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This is the final sitting day before the Lisbon treaty is put again to the people next week. Many of us have campaigned heavily during both referendum campaigns. It has been different this time. During the previous campaign key concerns were expressed and clarification sought on issues such as the loss of our Commissioner, taxation, abortion and a defence force. These have largely been addressed and it is clear people have no reason to fear the Treaty of Lisbon. If ever there was a time Ireland needed to be at heart of Europe, it is now. The economic climate has deteriorated significantly since last year and the benefits of EU membership are clear to everybody. Since we joined in the early 1970s, the country has been transformed. We can send a message next week as a nation to international investors that we are at the heart of Europe andare a well educated English speaking workforce looking for business with access to a market of more than 500 million people. I will canvass heavily during the final week of the campaign and that is the message I will put to people on the doorsteps.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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I was struck by the inspiring speech made by President Obama last night to the United Nations General Assembly in New York. It is remarkable how quickly the President and his Secretary of State, Mrs. Hilary Clinton, have managed to rehabilitate the United States in the eyes of the world. I very much welcome his comments on adopting a policy of mutual respect for mutual interests. I encourage countries such as North Korea and Iran to take him at his word and enter a process of engagement in order that they can rehabilitate themselves in the eyes of the world.
As everybody will be aware, today is the 250th anniversary of the "black stuff". Many people will extoll its virtues and its taste, and will say how healthy it is. I was always impressed by its advertising department and its adverts.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think it is appropriate to the Order of Business.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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It is. Today's celebrations are a case in point because Guinness is available in over 150 countries and tonight's celebrations will be held in most of them. That is great news for Guinness, but it is also fantastic news for Dublin tourism and Irish tourism. I compliment the staff at Guinness on their efforts.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Any potential suggestion of disarray or disunity in the Cabinet would be completely unfounded. As I said in the debate on the economy last night, in the context of various reports from an bord snip nua, on the numbers in the public service or anything else, it is important that we all have different points of view. I said it was vitally important that we had a report as stark and with such a severe menu of options of cuts such as those brought forward by McCarthy. He was the appropriate person to do that.
What the Tánaiste said yesterday was that to her, and many of us, there are a number of things in the report that do not make sense. There are many things in it that do not make sense to me, my political aspirations and my views and those of my constituents, but it does not mean it is not necessary for them to happen. The Tánaiste well knows that and that was what was being confirmed by her ministerial colleague, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan, yesterday evening.
In the context of that, I ask the Leader if he can arrange a schedule of debates between now and the budget on all the different ministerial voting groups, and if there is not time, to pool some of them. One thing is clear - we will have €4 billion in cuts so let us make sure that this House, in a mature way, can have its say and see what we can come forward with. The suggestions do not have to be in the McCarthy report or any report. Maybe we will just come up with them ourselves. One might say under education, one proposes to cut here, there and wherever or under transport, one proposes to have cuts in certain area, because that is what we will have to do and we may as well have our say. As I said last night, toes will be stepped on between now and the first week in December. The onus is on all of us to ensure that the toes that are stepped on are those that are best placed to take the pain and that the most vulnerable in society are protected at all costs.
Ciarán Cannon (Fine Gael)
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An issue that was raised, as I recall, last May by Senator Quinn and me, and at the time the Leader concurred with our opinion, was that of our unemployed and the contribution they can potentially make to our communities, towns and villages. As we approach an unemployment figure of 450,000, I am sure many of us know people in our families and neighbourhoods who are unemployed for the first time in their adult lives. One of the biggest challenges they face is preserving their sense of dignity and self-worth. More often that not, they are more than willing to roll up their sleeves and make a contribution to their community in whatever form they can.
At the time this was discussed by Senator Quinn and me, we suggested that perhaps the Government should put in place a national insurance policy to cover such people if they were engaging in such work in our communities. During the summer a number of people in one of my local towns took it upon themselves to begin to tidy up an area near a children's playground that had become very unkempt and were told to stop immediately by staff from the local authority because they were not covered by an insurance policy. On 21 July, the Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Conor Lenihan, announced that one idea he was taking from the ideas campaign was to create a new volunteer corps to engage the unemployed in community and voluntary work in Ireland and internationally without losing their unemployment benefits. Three months later we still have no details of how he intends to do that. It is an area we should look at seriously and should debate in this House.
Not alone are we offering these people a chance to maintain their dignity and self-worth and make a contribution to their communities, we would also be offering them a healthier CV when they go back to the workplace because they could show categorically that they did not sit idly during the six, 12 or, perhaps, 24 months they were unemployed. It is an idea worth exploring and is one this House should be exploring in the very near future.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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There was an interesting figure in the Commission on Taxation report in regard to tobacco smuggling. What interested me was that the amount of money the nation has been getting from tobacco revenue has been coming down in recent years, but what I did not know was that tobacco consumption is going up. The only way this can happen is with counterfeit and imported illicit cigarettes. I was surprised at the figures. The figures stated that approximately €65 per carton of cigarettes is lost by the State every time a carton is illegally imported. The effect is somewhere between €500 million and €750 million per year. I was startled by those figures.
The other fact that surprised me, and of which I was not aware, was that these cigarettes are not just illicit or smuggled cigarettes, but many of them are counterfeit cigarettes that contain 75% more tar, 28% more nicotine and 63% more carbon monoxide than legal cigarettes. There are two things we should be doing. We should be publicising that fact and making sure that steps are taken to ensure we reduce the amount of illicitly imported or counterfeit cigarettes. The fines and steps that can be taken are the sort of action we can take. The Garda are working very hard on it, but I am not sure we are giving it the support it needs.
During the last number of days the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, said he was introducing a postal code system. I understand it will cost some €22 million. It may well be very worthwhile. I noticed that the Communications Workers Union is concerned about it and is not sure why it is proposed. The vast majority of the public I meet are unsure as to the benefits of this proposal. There will probably be a substantial benefit from it. If we are going to introduce this I suggest the Minister, Deputy Ryan, should come into the House and let us have an explanation on the cost of it and why we will do it. There are 1.8 million addresses in Ireland and they will all have to have a postal code system. I am sure there are benefits to it. There are benefits to the nation as a whole. Let us make sure we debate the matter and understand what we are doing.
Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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There is a public meeting in Wexford town on Sunday night regarding the services at Wexford General Hospital. At a meeting with the HSE last Monday morning, it said there would be no major reduction in services at Wexford General Hospital, yet shortly afterwards the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, announced cutbacks of €1.5 billion for the health services next year. We should have an urgent debate on those cutbacks, because there is no way in the world one can implement cutbacks to that degree without having a significant affect on patient services across the country, especially on our acute hospitals which, quite clearly, will be in the front line of most of the cutbacks. We need an urgent debate on this issue.
We also need a debate on what is happening with the embargo on recruitment in the public service. There will be no night classes for anybody in Wexford town between now and Christmas because an individual retired and for some reason the VEC cannot or will not replace that person, even from within its current personnel. Instead it has cancelled all night classes, while all the other individuals connected with running the night classes are still expected to come into work with nothing to do. It is a complete waste of resources and is a very poor interpretation of the current embargo on public service employment. I ask the Leader to bring the appropriate Minister into the House to discuss this issue and stop this sort of nonsense from happening anywhere else in the country.
I would have liked to have seen a debate on the Lisbon treaty before the vote on 2 October. It is a pity the Leader could not facilitate that in some way, because it would have made a great impact to put on the record what we have seen and what we have done so far in regard to getting the treaty through.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I was relieved to hear from Senator MacSharry that the Cabinet is all singing from the same hymn sheet, although there is some evidence that some of them are out of tune.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We are on the Order of Business. 11 o'clock
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I heard Deputy Brendan Howlin on the radio this morning talking about the children's rights amendment. I am not opposed to a children's rights amendment. Anything that strengthens the position of children in our Constitution would be welcome. The matter needs to be debated, however. It needs to be made clear that the Constitution currently guarantees the personal rights of the child. While it would not be a problem to clarify or strengthen certain aspects of that, we need to be very precise about what we seek to achieve. It is not enough to seek to change the Constitution in order to make some big statement. If the traceable benefits of such a measure are not immediately obvious, we should question it. The child care Acts currently allow hundreds of children to be taken into care each year. It is obvious that the HSE and the social services are reluctant to intervene in certain situations, not because the Constitution prevents them from doing so but for various other reasons. They may be afraid of local controversies, for example. The salient point is that the law needs to be enforced. The agencies involved need to act in accordance with the powers they currently have. We must not engage in any scapegoating of our Constitution. As I have said, the Constitution as it stands rightly protects the personal rights of the child. It appropriately sits those rights in the context of the rights and duties of the family. That should be a central point. The 1996 report of the Law Reform Commission suggested that each child has the right to the care of his or her natural and biological parents, where possible. We should be espousing that principle.
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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The reputation of this nation among Irish people and people throughout the world was defiled when the Ryan report was published in May of this year. The report stated that at least 30,000 children who were under the care of the State in industrial and reform schools were sexually, emotionally or physically abused. Our Constitution was drawn up in 1937, at a time when children were seen and not heard. It is about time we listened to the children. When the Minister launched the implementation report in July of this year, he said he accepted all the recommendations and would implement them. One of the report's key recommendations was that there should be a memorial to the men and women who were abused, many of whose lives are still destroyed. I suggest that we should have a national day of remembrance to show our respect for the Irish children who were physically and emotionally abused by civil servants, volunteers, doctors, Christian Brothers and members of other religious orders. It is critical for the Leader to seek the attendance of the Minister of State with responsibility for children in this House as soon as possible. The Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, should update Senators on the position with regard to the constitutional amendment on children. I emphasise that the rights of children have to be fully enshrined in the Constitution of today.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I would like to formally second Senator White's proposition. The abuses that were documented and chronicled in the Ryan report should make us collectively ashamed.
I would like to speak about a different matter. The Minister for Health and Children recently suggested that the health service will be the subject of €800 million of cutbacks over the coming year. When one takes demographic factors into account, the real figure will be between €1.2 billion and €1.5 billion. The impact could be even greater if the risk posed by the current flu pandemic gets worse. I ask the Leader if the House can have a debate on this specific issue in the presence of the Minister. I am afraid that we will throw the baby out with the bath water. No Member of this House is opposed to efficiencies. All Senators appreciate that savings need to be made. We are all aware of the need for a huge trimming of the national finances. However, we should not forget that certain core services, which are of essential and real value to people, need to be retained. Not only would it be uncivilised to withdraw such services, but the cost of reassembling them at some future stage would be monumental and would set the country back hugely. I would like to defend some of the traditional easy targets for cutbacks within the health service. The home help and home care assistance systems are cost effective in the sense they keep people out of hospital and provide local jobs. The primary care system that is being developed will be of critical value in keeping people out of long-term care. The implementation of the Vision for Change report, which deals with psychiatric services, is of crucial importance. We need to make a clear statement, in the presence of the Minister, Deputy Harney, that we are in favour of trimming but not at the expense of core services. I ask the Leader to convey that point to the Minister. We do not want to develop a system like that in the United States. The US President, Mr. Obama, is trying to undo a system that caters for just one sector of the population.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the bank sector. I refer specifically the €54 billion injection that is to be invested in the banks as part of the NAMA proposal. At this time, we should be introducing regulations to govern how much money can be loaned against private property. We should limit the percentage of total bank lending that can be made available for commercial purposes. This part of our island nation has a population of 4.25 million, by comparison with a global population of 6 billion. If we are to renew the real prosperity we enjoyed up to 2002, our future lies with export-led growth. I suggest that we should limit the amount of property lending the banks can engage in. There should be no off-balance sheet lending. We should specify that the banks have to ensure that a certain proportion of their lending is used for export-led growth, rather than for speculative purposes.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Over the last 12 months, the Government has appealed to the Opposition to work with it on various issues, including NAMA and the Lisbon treaty, with which it has been confronted in the context of the recession we are facing. It has been suggested that the Opposition's reasoned debate and our criticisms of some of the Government's policies have created uncertainty in the financial markets and thereby affected this country's credit rating. I remind the Government that the serious infighting it is experiencing at the moment is not between the Government parties, as the Green Party is totally compliant with Government policy.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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It has been an effective apologist for the policies of this Fianna Fáil-led Government. I would like to ask the Leader a serious question about the statement made by the Tánaiste yesterday, when she criticised the validity of the bord snip nua report. We all have our views on that report. What has happened to the principle of Cabinet collegiality? The Tánaiste is not alone in criticising the report. Her ministerial colleagues, Deputies Cullen and Ó Cuív, have also criticised the report. The Minister for Finance had to issue a statement to the effect that the McCarthy report is the basis of the Government's thinking in the forthcoming budget. What is the Government's position? Do the comments of various Ministers - I refer in particular to the Tánaiste - represent a concerted effort to undermine the Minister for Finance as he tries to restore order to the public finances? I would like the Leader to answer that question.
I would like to ask the Leader a brief question about the Lisbon treaty referendum campaign. We are all working to get the message out and clarify the issues that have arisen where the treaty has been criticised. The poster suggesting that the minimum wage might be reduced to €1.84 is clever because it contains a question mark.
A lot of people see it but others miss it. The answer to the question is very clear. This country has a minimum wage established by statute. It is a matter for each member state to establish a minimum wage and, if anything, the influence from the European Union tends towards setting it at a reasonable level.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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The Government needs to disseminate a message on the precise position on this matter so as to avoid threats from the United Kingdom Independence Party, Cóir and other nefarious organisations.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Time, Senator. My hands are tied. I call Senator Buttimer.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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In light of the comments by the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance, how will the budget be framed? Like Senator Regan, I believe Senator Boyle is embarrassed at being in government and wants to be on these benches. We would welcome him in the Opposition.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should speak on the Order of Business.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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This is relevant to the Order of Business.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Senator Boyle is like a miniature soldier.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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One liners will not get the Senator on television tonight.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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When there is a crisis he is wheeled out. I know he is embarrassed by being in government.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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There is no room over here for Senator Buttimer.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to put his questions on the Order of Business to the Leader.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I asked who or what is going to frame the budget this December.
I join with Senator Fitzgerald and others in calling for a discussion with the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Barry Andrews, on the important issue of the rights of children. I am concerned that we have not concluded our debate on the Ryan report, as was promised by the Leader. Where has that report gone? Is it gathering dust on a shelf while the Government procrastinates and fails to do nothing? What is happening in the area of intercountry adoption, particularly in respect of Vietnam? As Senator Fitzgerald rightly pointed out, there are hundreds of distressed families in this country. What is the status of the adoptions? The Minister of State is saying nothing. I urge him to discuss this issue in the Seanad.
We need a debate on Ireland, the type of society and Government we want and the role of politicians and civil society.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It is important that we hold such a debate in the context of the budget, the Lisbon treaty and, especially-----
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I am concluding on this point. There has been a breakdown in people's trust of politicians.
Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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Senator Buttimer is intoxicated by the exuberance of his own verbosity. He noted that the Government is failing to do nothing. Within this double negative lies a positive, therefore the Government is highly active. He would be better to choose his words more carefully.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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We are not on "Today with Pat Kenny" now.
Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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I seek a discussion on education. A number of the industrialists who spoke at last week's forum in Farmleigh noted out that our reputation for education is no longer as high as we believe it to be. Now would be an opportune time to invite the Minister for Education and Science to discuss education policy in a broad sense. It is a matter to which I have given considerable thought over the summer break. We need to fundamentally assess how we educate children. Is it merely a question of passing the junior and leaving certificates? We need to engage in teaching children to think for themselves. I would welcome a broad debate on education given that it is one of the ways through which we escaped our previous economic doldrums. It would represent a long-term investment in the country.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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I support the comments made by previous speakers on the rights of children. Yesterday I also spoke about our vulnerable elderly. Today I want to highlight the problems of those aged between 25 and 40 who are exposed to serious financial and emotional pressures. They bought houses at the peak of the property market and in many cases have young children who are attending school or college. Furthermore, they are now falling victim to redundancies. As parliamentarians, we need to take account of this age group.
Over the past several days we received mixed messages from Ministers with regard to how the Government intends to address the economic crisis. A national programme for recovery was introduced in 1987 and the Government of the day engaged with the social partners and communities. Such a programme is once again needed. If we are to find a roadmap to recovery, we need to be honest with the people and put our cards on the table. Last week's forum of leading business people with Irish connections was positive in terms of proposing solutions. Such an approach could also be tried at local and regional levels. Universities, institutes of technology and regional business leaders could get together with communities to identify problems and propose solutions locally. That is the only way we can be inventive or offer new hope.
This morning Senator Fitzgerald proposed a motion on the NRA. Last year I raised my concerns about the lack of service stations on our national primary routes. Over the summer, hundreds of miles of national roads were designated motorways with a click of the fingers. No regard was paid to strict international standards on driver fatigue, which is one of the most unsafe practices in the developed world. Ireland has no service stations and only two are proposed. That is a disgrace and I call for a debate on our national roads network and accountability from the NRA.
Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I support all the requests for debates made by my colleagues this morning. The Leader received dozens of requests for debates yesterday and he faces a difficult job in prioritising them. A number of speakers have attempted to progress legislation on a children's referendum but at the other end of the spectrum the question arises of the challenges facing the elderly. I have previously stated in the context of a broad debate on services and protections for the elderly that we should set the bar higher by considering a referendum on the rights of the elderly. This proposal deserves meaningful scrutiny from the perspective of health care and civil rights. Elderly people are facing huge challenges which require political attention.
I support the call for a debate on education. The majority of Senators have received representations in regard to the school building programme. If the Government survives the coming weeks I am sure an announcement will be forthcoming in that regard. We need to reflect on the prefab industry. I understand that more than €100 million of taxpayers' money has been spent on prefabs over the past three or four years. Many school boards and parents' associations now argue that if the money was available in a different form proper structures could have been built. Can we hold an urgent debate on the prefab industry? One school in the village of Rathcormac in my constituency has had prefabs for more than 40 years. I could identify many more examples from across the country. Significant amounts of money are being wasted on renting prefabs in cases where solid structures could be provided. We should hold a debate on how the taxpayer could save and the pupils gain.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Mullen, Mary White, Buttimer and Coffey raised the transport Bill. In reply to Senator Fitzgerald, I will give whatever time is required - definitely a week to ten days - between the Second Stage and Committee Stage of this Bill.
On the serious concerns expressed by Senators this morning, particularly Senator Mary White, regarding the abuse of 30,000 children, which is horrifying to say the least, I certainly have no difficulty in coming back to the House on having a continuing debate on the Ryan report, on which I gave a commitment to the House before the summer recess, and also on having the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs, Deputy Barry Andrews, come to the House on the concerns being expressed regarding adoption, especially from Vietnam. As the House will be aware, the Minister of State went to Vietnam and met representatives of the Vietnamese Government. I certainly have no difficulty in inviting him back to update the House on his discussions there, and also on all matters pertaining to the concerns of the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children under the chairmanship of my colleague, Deputy Mary O'Rourke, and all the various issues and challenges facing children and their well-being in the country at present.
Senator O'Toole raised the need for a debate on the public sector to discuss the serious issues and challenges facing everyone at work and what their contribution will be. What he proposes is a good idea, that we would go through it portfolio by portfolio - perhaps two per week if possible - between now and the budget to see how the House with its wisdom can make proposals to assist the Government in its plight of finding €4 billion in savings as outlined by Senator Marc MacSharry. It is a matter in which this House can play a leading role. I invite Senators over the next few days to put their thoughts together with all their teams of expertise with whom they have worked down through the years to come to the assistance of the Ministers to see how the reduction in income there will be in their portfolios can least affect those who are underprivileged and on the margins of society. This is a good idea.
On Senator O'Toole's proposal that we would spend one day a month in the House with the North-South Ministerial Council report, possibly we can have a lengthy period of time allocated on one day so that we can celebrate the tenth anniversary of the great work being done by Ministers North and South. We could also allocate one day a month for the House to discuss EU reports and decisions. There is all-party agreement on this. I understand it is in our submissions - certainly in the Fianna Fáil one - that we would get more actively involved in all EU matters as well as matters pertaining to the North of Ireland. It would be timely to have this debate take place one day a month. I will discuss this matter with the various Ministers and get their full support and approval. The great work taking place is not being relayed to the people and I would like to think that Seanad Éireann could be the conduit for the various achievements taking place, particularly in the North-South Ministerial Council. We can let this take place and let the people know and be updated on the achievements taking place.
Senators Hannigan and Regan raised the Lisbon treaty referendum on Friday, 2 October. I am pleased to inform Senator Regan that the new posters went up overnight to point out the lie of the €1.84 minimum wage and I congratulate those who were involved in this. They went a step too far and this was the poster that really highlighted the lies that were being told by the "No" campaign on this matter. The minimum wage is enshrined in law in primary legislation passed by both Houses and is €8.65. It is something of which we can be proud on the one hand, but we can certainly give the lie to the myth being perpetrated by people who are misleading people, especially senior citizens, in many areas. I am pleased to see the posters being erected to correct the matter and to state that the minimum wage is €8.65 and, as I stated, that it is enshrined in primary legislation.
Senator Hannigan remarked on what President Obama is trying to achieve, and what he is trying to do is uplifting. As I often have stated, it is never the wrong time to do the right thing. What President Obama is trying to achieve is positive and I concur with Senator Hannigan's remarks.
While it may be the anniversary of Guinness, which is our greatest export and a world leader as an ambassador for Ireland, the Cathaoirleach and I never partook of it, of course. That is not to say that to discuss may not be always to agree. At the end of the day, we congratulate everyone in Guinness on the wonderful employment the company has given in Ireland over 250 years.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It is not our greatest export though.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator MacSharry called again for a debate on the economy - there was a good debate in the House yesterday evening - and also on the various reports that have been published. These are for our consideration as legislators. When we have discussed them and made our views known to the Government, it will then assess the views of colleagues from all sides of both Houses and then make up its mind. The Minister for Finance and the Government will let the people know on budget day when it will start to look at parts of those reports. As I stated in the House yesterday, I do not see the closing of Garda stations to save €1 million as a serious and common-sense proposal. I do not expect that will happen. I hope it will not happen because, as we all stated yesterday, the people deserve security in their homes. The proposal on €11 million for the rural transport scheme does not seem to make sense given the great and important good the scheme is doing right across the entire nation. However, there are good proposals that will assist Government. Every Minister can have his or her individual opinion and then collectively sit down as a Government and make decisions. We all represent constituencies individually, no matter what office we hold in either House. It would be a poor day if individual Members coming to these Houses to represent their constituents could not be allowed express their opinions on behalf of their constituents and then collectively make their decision as members of Government.
Senator Cannon spoke of the unemployed and voluntary employment. His is a worthwhile suggestion. I say to the Government it is about time whoever is in charge would cover the insurance of tidy towns committees or town development committees for individuals and groups of young people. If young people want to work voluntarily in areas identified by those experts who are advising these committees, insurance should not be the problem to stop them from doing the good work and improving the environment in the place where they were born and are living. I certainly will allow a debate on this take place at the earliest time because there is nothing more soul destroying than getting out of bed in the morning with nothing to do all day. Money has nothing to do with this. This is a social contribution and it can bring in significant dividends, whether in constructing walls, improving cemeteries or doing whatever in the local parish. We all see the power of the local parish in Croke Park on St. Patrick's Day. It moves mountains and does tremendous work. We, as legislators, should ensure this determination by our young people is not interfered with because they have no insurance cover. I thank Senator Cannon for bringing the matter to the attention of the House this morning.
Senator Quinn raised tobacco smuggling and the resulting loss to the Exchequer. Most important of all, however, the Senator brought to the attention of the House the high tar content in such cigarettes which is so dangerous to the health of those smoking them. I certainly will past his view on to the Minister. He also raised the postal code system and said that it will cost so much. It is my intention to have the Minister present to update the House on his proposals for the 1.8 million addresses that must be re-coded according to his proposal.
Senators Twomey and O'Reilly called on the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, to come to the House to discuss health services. I already gave my commitment to this yesterday and I am endeavouring to get a date in the Minister's diary so that this can happen.
Senator Twomey highlighted an issue with night classes in Wexford. As a former member of a VEC for four decades, I can say this is the function of the board of management in the first instance or the VEC in the second instance. A small contribution is needed by mature students attending in the evening. What was most uplifting in the 40 years I was a member of the VEC was the huge contribution to adult education, particularly in evening classes. If a small contribution of €5 or €10 is needed to allow this to continue, I do not believe the people, students in particular, will stop this from taking place. However, to suggest schools will close down every night of the week in a proud county like Wexford is unacceptable. I ask Senator Twomey and all Oireachtas Members from County Wexford to go back to the VEC to make their strong views known. If this is the case, it should not be allowed to continue.
Senators Hanafin and Regan expressed their strong views on the banks. In particular, Senator Hanafin said the people and the Government should know the percentages for mortgages, business and export-related growth, respectively. This is a commonsense proposal. When the Minister comes to the House to discuss the finance portfolio, we can make this proposal to him. This is where NAMA will be really effective once the percentages are agreed and all concerned, including the Government and the banks, are happy that this is what the plan will be. It is the national plan for recovery, which is as it should be. Once the taxpayer sees that the money will go to those who will generate growth and first-time house buyers, we will all know it is going to the productive end and will not be abused on this occasion.
Senator Buttimer again called for a debate on Ireland of the future. I agreed yesterday to have such a debate.
Senator O'Malley called for a debate on future education policy. I have already given such a commitment and believe it is a very good idea.
Senator Coffey has expressed serious concerns about those aged between 25 and 45 years who are under financial and emotional pressure. I agree with him in this regard. This is the section of society now most at risk and experiencing pressure never experienced before. The financial institutions need to play a serious part in this regard. If couples cannot make repayments through no fault of their own and they have a previously good track record, there is no reason they should not be allowed to pay interest only for a period of, perhaps, two years, or roll it over for a year at the end of the loan. If they have a good track record, the financial institutions and the Government need to take into account the difficulties couples aged between 25 and 45 years are experiencing.
Senator Coffey also called for a debate on the National Roads Authority and the designation of many miles of national roads as motorways. Local authority members have made strong proposals in this regard. In our area the road from McNeads Bridge to Kinnegad and from Kinnegad to Athlone has been a dual carriageway for some years. It has been tried and trusted and, thank God, very few accidents have occurred, with no accidents on some stretches. While the research has been done, I have no problemn in having a debate on the National Roads Authority and where we go from here.
Senator Bradford called for a debate on the rights of the elderly. I can certainly agree to have a debate on the matter. He also spoke about the €100 million spent on renting prefabricated buildings. This is an enormous amount of money. This is the time to get value for money - more for less, we are told. Builders would be delighted to undertake small schools projects such as this if it was the best that was to happen in the long term. I do not have any difficulty in having a debate on that matter also.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, the Leader has addressed a question I did not ask and failed to address the question I asked about infighting in the Cabinet.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can take it up with the Leader afterwards.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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We are producing legislation on the matter.
Senators:
Order for Second Stage.
Senators:
Bill entitled an Act to provide for the licensing of public bus passenger services, to change the name of the Dublin Transport Authority to the National Transport Authority, to provide for the dissolution of the Commission for Taxi Regulation, to amend the Taxi Regulation Act 2003, the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 and certain other enactments and to provide for related matters.
Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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I move: "That Second Stage be taken today."