Seanad debates

Wednesday, 17 June 2009

10:30 am

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re renewal of provisions of the Offences against the State (Amendment) Act; tributes to a former leader; No. 2, Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill 2008 - Committee Stage; and No. 35, Private Members' business, motion 32 regarding the information and communication technology sectors. It is proposed that No. 1 shall be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and shall conclude within 40 minutes of the Minister's introductory remarks. Spokespersons may speak for five minutes. The tributes to a former Member will be taken at the conclusion of No. 1. No. 2 shall commence after the tributes and shall adjourn not later than 5 p.m., if not previously concluded. No. 35, Private Members' motion, shall be taken from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. No. 2 shall resume at the conclusion of this motion.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Since last September we have been fixated on using taxpayers' money to help the banks. Anglo Irish Bank is enjoying €7.5 billion of taxpayers' money and one must ask, for what end? It is time we turned our attention to helping home owners who now face real challenges in meeting their mortgage payments. The banks have signed up to a moratorium not to foreclose for six to 12 months after the home owner gets into difficulty, but with rapidly rising unemployment - the ESRI predicts we will have 550,000 unemployed by the end of 2010 - reducing income as a result of levies, the fact, according to today's newspaper, that families are €43,000 less well off than two years ago, and huge personal levels of indebtedness, time is fast running out. This is likely to affect tens of thousands of home owners.

Recent research in the UK showed that the loss of the family home and unemployment are strongly associated with mental health issues. Our nation faces a huge, economic, socially stressful time. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Finance to the House before the summer recess to debate how the banks and Government can work together to find creative ways of helping home owners in difficulty during the recession. This is in everyone's interest. There are ways to deal with the issue, but they have not been considered in this country. The UK Government, for example, has put £1.2 billion into a home owner mortgage support scheme. Such initiatives could be a win-win solution because they give home owners the dignity they need to be able to hold onto their homes and the banks can avoid foreclosures and keep performing loans on their books, which is what they want.

The Minister has not intervened enough. He has been disappointing, even with regard to fixed-rate mortgages. He said his job was not to intervene but to regulate. However, he has not done that either. I am disappointed. It is time for the Minister to show respect for taxpayers' money and protect people's homes as well as the banks.

The issue of foreign adoptions remains unresolved. Two disturbing items of news have emerged in recent days which further threaten Irish adoptive families. On Friday, the Vietnamese Government revoked the licence of the Cork-based Helping Hands adoption mediation agency, which is the liaison agency between Vietnam and Irish families who want to adopt children in Vietnam. The licence has been revoked because the Minister of State has not renewed the bilateral agreement on time. What is even more disturbing is the discovery of the text of article 25 of the bilateral agreement, which says-----

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's time is up.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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May I conclude?

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No, the time is three minutes for party leaders and two minutes for other Senators. My hands are tied rigidly by that.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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With respect, I wish to finish my point. The article says the bilateral should have been automatically renewed unless revoked in writing.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please, the Senator's time is concluded. I call Senator Joe O'Toole.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business to ask the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Barry Andrews, to come to the House to be asked whether Ireland has cancelled the bilateral agreement in writing, thereby preventing foreign adoptions from Vietnam.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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We heard again today about another cutback on social services in rural Ireland, with the decision to cut back or review bus routes in all parts of the country. It should be recognised that Ireland is a place where we have both urban and rural communities. We have had a cutback in bus services in the capital and now the bus services in rural areas are to be reviewed. It should be recognised that bus services are a crucial part of the lifestyle of people in rural areas, whether in Dún Chaoin, Moville, Castletownbere, Waterford or Wexford. Therefore, this cutback is one more brick being taken from the wall of support there for them. Bus services are as important an artery of living for rural communities as broadband is and should be. The issue must be dealt with.

I appeal to politicians from all sides in both Houses not to be sucked into making major demands for a bus route in their constituencies. That is what always happens. This is a national issue in line with public policy. It is socially and ecologically important to the lives of ordinary people and, therefore, concurs with energy, social and green policy. Cutbacks in this area are not a clever saving of money, but rather something for which we will pay an even greater price. We will have more cars on the road and people will be in a less secure position. In particular, the cutbacks will hurt people without money or transport of their own and elderly people who cannot or will not drive. I ask the Leader to ensure we have a full debate on the issue in the House. This is just one more example of how easy it is to turn out the lights in rural Ireland and no one says anything.

I saw in one of today's newspapers that there is huge demand to restore a service in one part of Ireland, but I will not mention where. That is not the way to do it. The issue affects every one of us and all our constituencies. We should inform the Government this is something we will oppose. This is the kind of ridiculous move that embarrasses and undermines Government and ensures people have less trust in politics.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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Once again, today, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin has taken what can only be described as a leadership role in the debate on the future of education, especially of primary school education, by describing the position of the Catholic church. He appears to be ahead of the debate in many cases, certainly ahead of many people who purport to speak on behalf of church interests in this vital area. The archbishop has described the situation with regard to primary school education as a near monopoly of control by the Catholic church and has said that it does not reflect current realities. He has called for a debate, the kind of debate for which many Members have been calling for two years.

When the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Mary Hanafin, was Minister for Education and Science, she declined in this House to set up a national forum to consider these questions. The subject was raised last week in the House. Has the Leader had any luck in persuading the Minister for Education and Science to come to the House to facilitate a debate on this crucial issue? Obviously the matter arose again in the context of the recent developments on the Ryan commission report, but I have no difficulty in decoupling those two issues if that would make people feel more comfortable in debating the matter. The issue of church control and management of primary schools throughout the State requires debate in its own right, with or without the Ryan commission report. There have been some developments in this regard, for example, vocational education committee involvement in primary schools in Dublin city.

The issue arises repeatedly in the House. Can we now have a full and comprehensive debate on the issue that takes note of the fact that the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin has said that the current position is a historical hangover and is essentially a monopoly. To his credit, he said the position is detrimental to the possibility of maintaining a true Catholic identity in Catholic schools. That is the Roman Catholic view on the issue. We need debate on the matter.

When this question is debated in the House, on radio programmes and elsewhere, people always say it is a question of choice. We are all in favour of the maximum amount of choice being afforded to citizens, parents and children, but resources must also be considered. In any country or economy, scarce resources will dictate what level of choice we can provide or can vindicate for parents, whether religious, non-religious or multidenominational education. These are important questions that should be debated in the House and I ask the Leader to arrange a debate with the Minister for Education and Science at the earliest opportunity.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday, Irish bonds were oversubscribed to in another bond auction. The does not have much effect but does result in a mild reduction in the cost of lending for Ireland. This is significant in that it is the first time it has happened for some time. We are still the most expensive country in terms of what we have to pay, but we are moving in the right direction. It gives some confidence to international investors. The three-year bonds were oversubscribed to the extent of 2.5 times and the seven-year bonds to 2.2 times. This is significant and I congratulate those people in the National Treasury Management Agency for their efforts in that regard.

I join Senator Healy Eames in the call, which is in line with my call of some weeks ago, for a debate on innovative ways to help people who may not be mortgage defaulters at this time but who may get into difficulty given that interest rates are at an historic low but will rise inevitably, unemployment is increasing and we expect serious social problems as a result that will cost the nation a fortune. I ask the Leader to arrange a further debate on this issue. I and colleagues have been considering a number of options. One suggestion is that the Money Advice and Budgeting Service should be required to certify whether a financial institution should be permitted to proceed to seek a court order to repossess a house. In advance of granting a repossession, a series of innovative options could be considered by all the covered financial institutions. These include freezing the mortgage for a specified period, extending the term covered by the mortgage, reducing the interest rate for a period or renting back the property if it is a complete basket case.

As I stated some weeks ago, we must also address the issue of illegal money lending by criminal elements that use Don Corleone type enforcement methods. This practice is endemic in all parts of the country. Legal money lending at exorbitant rates is also a problem. A British public limited company, Provident Financial, is lending money legally to desperate households at annual percentage rates, APRs, of as high as 187%. These issues must be addressed and I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on them with the Minister for Finance. Senators will gladly facilitate the Minister in holding any such debate at his convenience.

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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The National Assets Management Agency is mandated to assume the toxic loans of the banks and, where necessary, call in the securities provided and realise the value of the properties in question. The Government has not addressed a technical problem of fundamental importance to the ability of NAMA to realise the assets which underpin the loans it proposes to assume. This problem, of which the Government is aware, relates to lands and properties which are co-owned. In such cases, there is an inability to enforce the judgment mortgage and securities in the courts. This issue was highlighted by the Law Reform Commission in a consultation paper on judgment mortgages published in 2004 and in a High Court judgment issued by Ms Justice Laffoy in the Irwin v. Deasy case on 31 January 2006. It has also been noted at various law conferences in recent years. Despite this, no action has been taken to address the issue. I ask the Leader to address it to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The effect of the problem to which I refer is that, in the case of loans secured on properties which are in co-ownership, the National Assets Management Agency would not be in a position to enforce securities and judgment mortgages. This appears to be a major impediment to the work of the agency. Notwithstanding the fact that the Fine Gael Party is not favourably disposed to the entire NAMA project, we would like the Government to get it right if it is intent on pursuing this option.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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In what year was the judgment to which the Senator refers?

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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In 2006, Ms Justice Laffoy noted a lacuna in the law and stated it was for legislators to remedy it. As no action has been taken, I ask the Leader to address the matter to the Minister. The question of family homes does not arise in this respect as such properties are afforded additional constitutional and statutory protections. The problem relates to commercial and agricultural property and land which may be the subject of NAMA's work.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader confirm his commitment to hold a debate on the Common Fisheries Policy before the end of the session? It is critical that we debate this issue because the current Dáil and Seanad will be no longer in place when the Common Fisheries Policy is next debated.

Senator O'Toole stole my thunder when he raised the issue of rural transport. I echo and support his contribution on the suggestion that the night transport aspect of the rural transport scheme is to be removed. The scheme was introduced by the Minister on a pilot basis. I do not wish to be parochial on this issue but I represent an area with many peninsulas and remote locations. I listened on radio this morning to a lady from Glengarriff who lives some distance from her church and avails of the scheme to travel to church on Saturday evenings. This is a wonderful service which should, if possible, be maintained, even if it means increasing the charge by €1 or €2. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, has given great support to this and other initiatives in rural areas and disadvantaged urban areas, and I will be disappointed if the suggestion about which we heard this morning transpires to be true. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on rural transport and social inclusion before the end of the term.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I ask the Leader to explain the reason he did not indicate there would be a sos during the debate on the Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill. Given that, as with many other Bills taken in the House, the same three or four Senators will be present all day, we are entitled to this little courtesy. I note the Leader is nodding and I assume, therefore, that a sos will be included, for which I thank him.

I support the views expressed by my colleagues, Senators O'Toole and O'Donovan, on rural transport. Restrictions on alcohol have left people frightened to go to pubs at night, which may or may not be a good thing. I heard the woman to whom Senator O'Donovan referred state on radio this morning that she would be unable to attend mass on Saturday evenings in the event that the rural transport scheme is ended. She also said people were lonely and perishing of isolation. Her comment that they may as well kill us all provides a stark warning to those of us in public life.

I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on genetically modified organisms and food to ascertain the current position of the Government on the issue, particularly in light of the fact that Tasmania has decided to continue its ban on the release of genetically modified organisms. The relevant Minister, Mr. David Llewellyn, stated that Tasmania's "GMO-free status is a vital factor for our primary producers, helping them realise their full potential in the international and interstate markets." This is precisely the point some of us have been making. Irrespective of the scientific basis for such a ban, politically and economically it is a good thing.

I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on human rights in the international perspective. This evening the Ceann Comhairle will receive a delegation from the People's Republic of China for dinner in the House. I hope to be able to attend the event to raise the situation in Tibet where people are still being killed. A mass movement of population to facilitate a hydroelectric project has resulted in six Tibetans being seriously wounded and some of them may have been killed. While I may not get an opportunity to raise the matter directly with the Chinese delegation, I would like an opportunity to discuss these important issues of humanity in the House.

11:00 am

Photo of Cecilia KeaveneyCecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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As one who lives near Lough Foyle, I declare my interest in this serious issue. The Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission is charged with managing Lough Foyle. I have been informed by the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, that negotiations with the Crown Estate to buy a lease for the aquaculture licensing of the lough are at an advanced stage. Why are we negotiating with this body? I contest its claim in this matter.

In response to articles on the front page and inside pages of yesterday's edition of the Irish News, the Crown Estate indicated it would not make a claim of ownership until an international marine border was agreed by the British and Irish Governments. I ask for the current negotiations to be stopped. Difficulties in defining the seabed should first be resolved and ownership and veto rights on development in Lough Foyle handed over to the Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission, the cross-Border body charged with managing the lough. Contrary to its statement to the Irish News, the website of the Crown Estate features a claim of 200 nautical miles of seabed. Under the United Kingdom's 2004 Energy Act, it claims a right of veto over any developments on the seabed and foreshore. I challenge this claim.

Negotiations with a third party on this matter must cease. If the Crown Estate can prove its claim, we should buy it out. The relevant cross-Border body should be responsible for the development of Lough Foyle. We cannot develop the lough in a consistent and coherent manner if all developments are subject to threat of a third party veto. I am supported in this matter by members of the Northern Executive and local councils in the North. I hope we will be able to bring the issue to a speedy conclusion.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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My colleagues have touched on the considerable variety of challenges facing the country, with potentially 550,000 unemployed by the end of the year, the set-up of the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, and the future of rural life. A crucial question is the ability of the Government and politicians in general to lead the country through such considerable challenges facing us. I call on the Leader to arrange a debate on the decisions that will be made in September on the salaries to be paid to senior figures in the public service. I look at the additional sums the Taoiseach and the Cabinet Ministers receive for the privilege of leading the country and I must question whether that really is appropriate given the challenges the country faces. What I would like to see happen is a move to a system where, for example, the Taoiseach gets paid an additional €30,000 for the privilege of leading the country, Cabinet Ministers get €20,000 and Ministers of State get €10,000 on top of the salary they receive as TDs. This may be a radical and severe change from the current position, but it is less radical and less severe than what is faced by many who the Government is looking to serve. I call for a debate on the salaries paid to such figures and the general question of how Government and politics in general can gain the credibility and support of the people to get through the significant changes ahead.

I second Senator Healy Eames's amendment to the Order of Business. I also agree with Senator Alex White on the comments of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin. The archbishop appears to be ahead not only of elements within the church but of the Government in the call he made yesterday and that would merit debate in the House.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I plead with the Leader to arrange before the end of the session for the Minister for Health and Children to come to the Seanad to discuss what she and the HSE are doing about the national crisis of suicide in the community. At a time when the number of suicides is increasing, the funding of the suicide prevention organisation has been cut back. My evidence is from the organisations which deal with suicide. There is disbelief because they know there are many more suicides. There have been clusters of suicides and nothing has been done about them. I want to see the Government deliver what it promised in the programme for Government, namely, that it would reduce the rate of suicide by 20% by 2012. The European Alliance Against Depression indicated that four proven community-led methods can bring down the rate of suicide by 24% over two years.

Almost 500 people in this country die from suicide each year and I want to know why the energy of the Department of Health and Children, the HSE and the Minister is not being galvanised. If 500 people a year were dying from swine flu, a national emergency would be declared, but this is being ignored. Much of the reason for this is that the stigma of mental illness and suicide is still very evident. I tabled a motion at the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting - it was the only motion tabled - and I got super support from my colleagues on this. I am pleading. It is not worth my while coming to the Seanad unless the Minister for Health and Children can come to the House and inform Members why she is not addressing this national crisis of suicide.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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I join other Senators in expressing my dismay at the proposed cutbacks in the rural bus services. Clearly, it will lead to additional hardship for people living in rural communities. It will increase isolation, and we just heard Senator Mary White speak eloquently about the potential impact of isolation on people. It will also make it more difficult for young people to access the jobs market. Many in my constituency have complained about the lack of bus services to get to jobs when they are being offered. It would also put additional pressure on the local road infrastructure which is crumbling, as all Members will be aware. My concern is little cost-benefit analysis has been done on these proposals. If it were, it would show that the social cost of these cutbacks will be greater than any potential savings. I join in the call for a debate as soon as possible on rural transport networks.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I support the proposal by Senator O'Toole on the review of the rural transport scheme. This innovative scheme was introduced as a pilot scheme by the former Minister, Deputy Mary O'Rourke, and it has been rolled out to quite a number of areas with considerable success. I see it operating at first hand in my own area. It would be a worthwhile exercise to have a full review of this issue in the Seanad and to put forward the strong view held. I compliment the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, who took much criticism at the time over the introduction of the nightly bus, which he very much supports.

On No. 25 on the Order Paper, I ask that we devote time to the question of the Council of Europe on the occasion of its 60th anniversary. Ireland is one of ten founding members of the Council of Europe. President Mary McAleese will address the plenary session at 12.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 June. I ask Senators to accommodate Senator Keaveney, Senator Joe O'Reilly and myself, the three representing the Seanad in the Council of Europe. It would be worthwhile. Senators Bacik, O'Toole and Norris could look at this matter from the point of view that it is in order that we Members of the Seanad should be allowed attend such plenary sessions when we must be there for events. Indeed, I am vice-president of the ALDE group in the Council of Europe and I have great difficulty in getting a chance to attend next week. I ask the Leader of the House, and the Cathaoirleach, that there should be some provision where Senators are nominated-----

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is a matter for the Whips.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter for the Whips.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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-----to international bodies. It affects Senators Keaveney, O'Reilly and myself.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter for the Whips.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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It is not. There is a motion on the Order Paper due to its 60th anniversary. Next Tuesday the President will address that assembly and the Seanad should be represented by those who have been nominated to attend. I appeal to all Members of the House who purport to be liberal, progressive and in favour of human rights-----

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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-----to allow the Members here to attend.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order, why are these remarks being made in this direction?

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter for the Whips, if people are absent in whatever way.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Exactly.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Senator Leyden recognises our natural leadership.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole knows exactly why.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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I agree with the sentiments of previous speakers on isolation and the importance of the rural bus network. Last week we heard how Bus Éireann, the national bus provider, will also cut networks in and around the country. Rural isolation will have a significant social impact, and we must remember that Ireland is predominantly rural. Much of the time politicians in Dublin forget that beyond the Pale there is three quarters of the population who still require services.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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Rural isolation is one of the highest priorities in rural areas. I commend the Government on rolling out the rural bus network over recent years, but now it will undo all that work and leave in the lurch the people who have been using this service, which is unacceptable.

I support the call of my colleague, Senator Healy Eames, for a debate on mortgages. Many home owners are under severe pressure and all that is relieving them at present are the low interest rates. I ask the Leader to call the Minister for Finance to the House to discuss the area of home mortgages and how we can assist home owners. The moratorium only applies to a certain small number of banks. There are many other banks which are putting considerable pressure on family homes and we need to respond constructively and find mechanisms to address this problem in society. We, as politicians, must do that. It is an obligation on us.

I commend the Government, which may surprise the Leader, on the commencement of the further provisions of the Public Health (Tobacco) Acts. On 1 July there will be no advertising of tobacco products in retail premises, and I welcome that. One of the best acts of the Government over recent years was to ban smoking in public establishments in 2004. More than 7,000 people die in this country every year from tobacco related illnesses. It is a stark statistic which should never be forgotten by any member of any Government. More can be done through our educational establishments and schools to help educate our young people to avoid cigarettes at all costs because the major health implications of smoking will continue for many years and will only manifest themselves later in life. I ask the Leader to commend the Government on the provisions of the ban on the advertising of tobacco and perhaps some day in the next term he could provide for a debate on tobacco and its implications for the country.

Photo of Ivor CallelyIvor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I support my colleagues who referred to the significant and vital role played by the rural transport scheme in the country. Like Senator Donovan, I see first hand the benefits of the rural transport scheme, particularly social inclusion and what it does for people in rural areas. I look forward to the Leader accommodating the request for a discussion on the issue.

I also support Senator Mary White on the issue of the national crisis of suicide in Ireland. There is no doubt, given the current economic climate and recession, that suicide is on the increase. I ask that when we address the topic of suicide to ensure the Department of Health and Children, which has the principle role in the provision of various programmes, accommodates and seeks to ensure that the financial institutions participate in whatever working group would be put together by the Department of Finance. There is no doubt the actions of financial institutions can, on occasion, create an impulsive action by people whom they unfairly put under pressure.

I rise for the second time to support the comments of Senator MacSharry on the success of the National Treasury Management Agency in the oversubscription of the sale of our national bonds. I understand they were oversubscribed 2.5 times, which is a great indicator for the current financial status of the country and to the international markets. I support the proposals of Senator MacSharry to help address the problems of mortgage defaulters.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I echo the words of Senator Alex White in calling for a debate on the ownership of national schools. While Archbishop Martin's comments that the Catholic monopoly, as he put it, over schooling is not tenable are welcome, some caution is necessary. The archbishop referred, in the reported version of his speech, to the management of schools rather than ownership. If we are to have debate on this matter we must also look at the ownership of schools that are being paid for and maintained by the State and yet remain, as far as we can tell, predominantly in the ownership of the Catholic church. A debate is needed to ensure there is greater choice for parents and children as to where they receive their education.

I renew my call to the Leader for a timeframe for the introduction of the Climate Protection Bill and the Civil Partnership Bill. The Leader responded yesterday but did not give a commitment as to when those Bills will be introduced-----

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Nor a promise.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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-----or any sort of promise as to whether they would be introduced. There has been a long lead-in for both Bills. We heard accusations of Ministers sleeping in the other House last week and there is a danger that Ministers might be seen to be sleeping on the job if the Bills I referred to are not introduced very shortly because there has been plenty of preparation time.

I introduced the Climate Protection Bill to the House and we called a vote on it in the last number of weeks. There has been plenty of preparation time available to the Government and there are plenty of models for climate protection legislation to be introduced without further delay. We are facing into the Copenhagen climate summit in December. This is something that cannot be left on the long finger. The Stop Climate Chaos campaign organised a massive human hourglass on Sandymount Strand last weekend to show that time is running out and we need legislative action on this issue. I ask for an answer on that.

I support Senator Healy-Eames in her call for a debate on bilateral adoption agreements, with particular reference to Vietnam. It is of real concern to hear that the Vietnamese authorities have now, I understand, cancelled the licence for the agency with which Irish couples have been working. A great number of individuals and couples in Ireland have been left in limbo and do not know where they stand regarding their prospective adoptions of Vietnamese children. We need the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, to come into the House to answer questions on this matter.

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with all those who spoke about the lack of rural transport. I am very concerned that we would cut back on rural transport. I feel very strongly that we must do something to activate community life. When people are trying to get planning permission to build a house on their farm it is refused and now rural transport is being cut back. There will be no rural life in this country and I am very concerned about that. A debate on the matter is necessary. I want to see more vibrant communities and life back in the country. I do not want one way of life based in cities and urbanised areas. I love the rural way of life. It is the way we should be. There is currently no balance and there will now be cutbacks in rural transport.

I would also welcome a debate on Church and State management and ownership of education. I have no fixed ideas about it, but a choice regarding education must always be available. It would be very welcome and this would be the best Chamber to have such a debate. I am constantly advocating that we have such debates in the Chamber because they help to open up thinking. Once again we have an opportunity to debate a very serious matter, that is, the education of our young people.

Rural transport must come on the agenda very quickly to make sure we re-activate community life in all forms. I would like such a debate before we break for the summer.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am also concerned-----

Senators:

The Senator should move more to the left.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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No.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Coghlan on the Order of Business without interruption.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I am equally concerned about the rural transport networks because we all understood the aim was to eliminate, minimise or reduce isolation in every way we can. The re-jigging of this scheme is very serious and will have disastrous social consequences. I support the call of all other Senators for a debate on the matter.

I am generally very complimentary of Irish Rail for the improved rail service we have. It is of course greatly subsidised. I do not know if what happens on the Kerry service happens elsewhere. Perhaps it happens in Sligo, Westport and other places. I refer to a direct train which leaves early in the morning. People may have to leave home without a bite to eat and may want some breakfast. On the train I travel on early in the morning, the restaurant carriage is designated as a first class carriage. In other words, one is expected to pay a supplement to become a first class passenger in order to eat breakfast. It is a ridiculous situation.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Questions to the Leader.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It would not happen on the train to Cork.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader understands what I am talking about as he is a man with his feet firmly planted in rural Ireland. We are at one on this issue.

Photo of Labhrás Ó MurchúLabhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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It is a great source of concern and is very alarming to learn that more than 100 immigrants to the North of this island had to take refuge in a church because they feared for their lives. Among them was a five day old baby. These people have come under sustained, organised attack for a long period of time and it is only by the luck of God that nobody has been killed. It beggars belief that this could be happening in modern days. It is more like an echo from medieval times.

I salute the neighbours who came out onto the street-----

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Labhrás Ó MurchúLabhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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-----in support of the people concerned because it took courage and they also came under attack. One can only imagine what the stories currently going out of this country are like. It is just one country. If we cast our minds back to the early Irish immigrants who went to America, one wonders what it would have been like if that community had come under the very same kind of attack. It is vital this is nipped in the bud. We must be aware this could just as easily happen in the South in socially deprived times. It is important we show solidarity with the people who came out and with the agencies in the North while at the same time remain careful in any language we use to ensure we do not inflame passions. It must be borne in mind that this was not individual thuggery, it is quite clear there was an organised hand behind this incident. The question that arises is whose hand was it. We must be careful that we do not hand over to some particular group the opportunity to do so again in the future.

Photo of Phil PrendergastPhil Prendergast (Labour)
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Will the Leader arrange for a debate on the interpretation of special needs in schools? I was concerned to read of cutbacks across the whole spectrum of schools with special needs assistants for children. For a child in the autistic spectrum familiarity and relationship building is a strong feature in terms of their achieving some degree of normality within our education system. It is a matter of grave concern to me and many others across the country that children with special needs have been disadvantaged in this way. There has been much focus lately on abuse of children. To me it is an abuse if we do not cherish all of our children equally. Children with special needs should never be singled out as the first in line in terms of cutbacks. Very rarely are they able to speak for themselves. Parents are put to the pin of their collars to cope given some of these children can be challenging at home and in the school system. As I stated, relationship building is important to special needs children.

I wish to raise another matter which relates in a small way to the rural transportation system. Our current fleet of ambulances are top of the range - they may be Mercedes - and are fine when used to transport people on the M50 or other good roads. However, their use in the Nire valley, which is beautifully scenic and so on, is not good as the suspension in the ambulances is not suitable to roads deemed to be of not good standard. Patients, be they in premature labour or suffering spinal injury, can suffer more danger to their health when transported in these vehicles. I ask that a standardised protocol be put in place so that the ambulance service, in light of the provision of centres of excellence in regionalised locations, is suitable for all roads in the country and not just on motorways.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I join with colleagues who condemned the racist attacks on the Lisburn Road in Belfast. We have long thought we had seen an end to racism in the North. However, it has again raised its ugly head. I believe, as mentioned by previous speakers, that this attack was organised. This organisation took the form of the current economic downturn to blame immigrants for the lack of jobs and opportunity in Ireland. This is not a phenomenon unique to Northern Ireland, it could happen here and has happened in the UK with the British National Party. We know from history that throughout Europe there has been a resurgence of the far right. Whereas this is not a cause of immediate concern it is a situation that should be monitored carefully. One of the groups that has progressed is a far right group in Hungary with a paramilitary wing. We have also seen the rise of the far right in Austria. Whereas different ideologies might be looked at, including Communism, which I do not support but the principals of which are based on economics, Fascism has principals based on race, the most evil and heinous type of political activity in which the far right engages.

I ask the Leader to call on the Minister for Finance to look again at how we can operate with the Northern Ireland Executive in particular in terms of ministerial pricing orders on tobacco and alcohol, which would serve both sides. It is perhaps time that we again consider the use of pricing orders as a method of developing a social policy on the abuse of alcohol. The fact is that in some off-licences alcohol can be purchased cheaper than cans of Coca-Cola.

I call again for a two-day debate that would include all political parties outlining their economic policies on how to deal with the €20 billion deficit, within which they would have independently costed how much cuts they would make and what taxes would be increased.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Government has spent approximately €40 million on a site, including design and planning, for a new prison at Thornton Hall, a project which has been shelved indefinitely. Recent reports suggest that our prisons are grossly over-crowded and that conditions therein are deplorable. I call on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into this House to outline what he intends doing in terms of the provision of extra spaces in our prisons and how he intends to tackle gross over-crowding therein, which is a recipe for unrest into the future. Proper measures must be put in place as a matter of urgency before the situation gets totally out of hand.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I support the concerns expressed by a number of Members regarding the evening rural transport scheme which is due to expire on 10 July 2009. It was a pilot scheme initiated approximately seven years ago at a cost of €500,000, which is relatively small given the benefit accrued from the service provided. The service is being provided in rural parts of west Donegal and is used during the day by people going to collect their pensions and social welfare payments and in the evening to attend bingo and other community events in the local area. The withdrawal of this service would result in the isolation of these people in their homes in the evenings. I am aware the Minister for Transport met yesterday with some of the groups concerned. It is hoped a positive outcome in this regard can be achieved. I support the call for a debate on the matter in this House before the summer recess, if possible next week.

I wish also to raise the issue of the availability of finance to small and medium enterprises from financial institutions, of which there is none. Many SMEs across the country - I know of many in my constituency - that have employed people down through the years and have healthy cash flows cannot obtain finance from the banks, be it bridging loans or other finance required. The decision-making process while previously a function of the local bank manager has been centralised to Dublin and is causing grief and pain for many businesses. This is an issue we must address in this House perhaps by way of a debate with the Minister for Finance prior to the summer recess, if possible.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I join with other speakers in asking the Leader to provide time, if possible this week, for a debate on rural Ireland and community life. Senator Ó Domhnaill spoke about the evening rural transport scheme which is to be cut. Let us not forget that three quarters of Ireland is rural. We need a viable transport link in rural areas. The Government is taking a short-sighted approach to saving money and is depriving people of the opportunity to live in their communities. Also, the decision of Bus Éireann to sever, curtail or discontinue services in many parts and the cut by the Health Service Executive in home care packages will result in people being deprived of services and the majority of areas becoming isolated.

I ask the Leader to provide time for a debate with the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism in the context of his remarks yesterday in the Dáil regarding the grant scheme to the Gaelic Players Association. This, coupled with the fact that the Minister has shelved the sports capital programme, tells our elite GAA players they will not be rewarded for playing the game or raising the sport to the highest level. This Government appears to have no policy on sport. I have called on numerous occasions for a debate on sport but have not yet received a positive response.

I seek a debate on assistance to home owners, particularly those who are hard pressed to repay their mortgages. I know many couples who are temporarily paying their mortgages with credit cards. Loan sharks are preying on people and making their lives uncomfortable. We should call on the relevant Oireachtas committee to regulate these sharks and moneylenders so that we can have an equitable system of lending and relieve the pressure on young couples.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I concur with Senator Hanafin and others regarding the racist attacks in Belfast, which yet again demonstrate that we have a long way to go before full respect for the dignity of the person is enjoyed by all members of society. They underline the need to promote values of tolerance at all levels, but mere tolerance will not suffice. We need to emphasise the ethical absolute of the right of each person to participate equally in the goods of our society. That is more a matter of respect for the person than a mere assertion of rights or values of tolerance. Our schools should play a key part in emphasising these rights.

I would welcome a debate on the ownership and management of our schools. The key value in this regard must be parental choice. According to a recent poll of parents' preferences conducted by Red C Research, 47% want their children to attend Catholic schools, 37% want schools where all religions are taught and 11% want schools in which no religion is taught. All those groups must enjoy access to schooling under the model they prefer. I would regret any attempt to use the current controversy, which must be taken seriously, as a wedge to pursue a separate agenda for the control and ownership of schools. I have criticised the Labour Party and others in this regard.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Did the Senator speak to the archbishop about the matter?

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Archbishop Martin is a sound man.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Mullen, without interruption.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I fully support the comments of Archbishop Martin in this regard. We must move to a situation in which people have access to ownership models of schools in proportion to their aspirations as parents. If we pursue that aim rather than a statist, one size fits all model, we will achieve social justice while acting harmoniously with the wishes of parents.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Healy Eames, O'Toole, MacSharry, Coffey and Buttimer expressed strong views on the difficulties being experienced by home owners, particularly those who have lost their jobs. The banks and the Government must play a part and I support the calls for assisting those who are on the margins. Home owners with good track records should be given extensions to their mortgages and allowed to suspend payments while they are unemployed. Financial agencies have to act responsibly towards people who have good track records and if there are hardship cases, we as public representatives should use our good offices to assist those who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own. I have a friend whose mortgage repayments decreased from €1,400 last September to €1,020 this month because interest rates are at a historic low. However, interest rates are irrelevant if somebody has lost his or her job. I have no difficulty in allocating time to discuss this issue in minute detail with the Minister for Finance prior to the summer recess.

Senators Healy Eames and Bacik spoke about the adoption challenges faced by many parents, particularly those who are affected by the negotiations on a bilateral agreement with Vietnam. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children has informed the House that he is doing everything he can in this regard. I will discuss with him how we can make progress on the issue.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We are not making progress.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I provided an update for Senators last week and if further progress is made this week I will revert to the issue on tomorrow's Order of Business.

Senators O'Toole, O'Donovan, Hannigan, Leyden, Coffey, Callely, Ormonde, Coghlan, Ó Murchú, Ó Domhnaill and Buttimer expressed strong support for rural bus services. I commend the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, and my constituency colleague and former Minister for Transport, Deputy O'Rourke, on their role in looking after those who need transport. One should be able to look forward to quality of life and happiness, particularly in the autumn of one's career. I know from another walk of life the terrible feeling of loneliness and of being unable to communicate with anybody. As Senator O'Toole correctly pointed out, the rural transport initiative has been a godsend for those who want to go to bingo or draw their pensions. Those of us who come from rural areas would not be worth our salt if we did not stand up for the people who need this service. During this downturn in the economy, many people need this facility because they may no longer be able to insure or tax their cars. I will arrange a debate on the issue early next week.

Senators Alex White, Bacik, Donohoe, Ormonde and Mullen referred to the recent statement by the very courageous Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, on the church's long-standing commitment to education. When there was no money, the churches not only brought faith to the people but also education to Ireland and, through our missionaries, the world. I will see what I can do to have a debate on the matter with the Minister for Education and Science at the earliest opportunity.

Senator MacSharry welcomed yesterday's bond offering. That the three and seven year bonds were over-subscribed is an indication of the confidence of foreign investors and those who have money.

Senator Regan drew on his legal experience to put a proposition before the House which I will bring to the relevant Minister's attention. The proposition concerned joint land owners, the challenges facing NAMA and the 2006 Laffoy judgment. It was worthy of the Senator to bring these matters to our attention.

Senator O'Donovan called for a debate on the Common Fisheries Policy. I gave a commitment to the House regarding this serious challenge for the fishing industry. It is also an opportunity for job creation if we are serious about addressing the plight of fishermen and women. I have scheduled time for a debate on the issue before the summer recess.

Senator Norris called for a debate on human rights. I have no difficulty in agreeing to such a debate. I will also address with the relevant Minister the remaining issues raised by the Senator.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I asked about a sos.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I think that is a reasonable request because this will be a long sitting day - we may not adjourn before 11 p.m. or midnight. I accede to the request by the Senator for a sos from 1.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Keaveney expressed her views on the Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission and rights on the seabed. I will pass on the Senator's strong views to the Minister.

Senator Donohoe raised certain issues and highlighted the major challenges facing our country regarding the problem of the economy. I gave an undertaking earlier on the Order of Business that we will have this debate. On almost every Order of Business in the past two weeks Senator Hanafin has called for such a debate to allow everyone the opportunity to bring forward their policies. A Senator called earlier for an independent analysis of the proposals before they come to the House, which would assist the Government in its effort to help everyone regarding the challenges facing the economy.

Senator Mary White and Senator Callely called for a debate on suicide. We must all commend Senator White who outlined to the House that 500 people die as a result of suicide every year. It is a terrible tragedy and we must do anything we can to help in that regard. This report is very welcome. I thank Senator Keaveney and other Senators who assisted the Dáil Deputies in bringing this report to our attention. The least we can do is scrutinise and discuss it in the House at the earliest opportunity.

On the issue highlighted by Senator Leyden, it is hoped the Whips will address that at their weekly meeting tomorrow to determine how they can assist colleagues who wish to attend the Council of Europe on the occasion of its 60th anniversary, particularly as our President, Mary McAleese, will give an address there next Tuesday.

Senator Coffey expressed his support for the new laws coming in governing aspects of the smoking ban. I agree with him on that.

Senator Bacik asked again for an indication of the timeframe for the two Bills she inquired of me yesterday. I can inform the House that the Civil Partnership Bill is on the Government's A list and it is hoped to publish the Bill next week. I await from the Department the timeframe on the Climate Change Bill. A timeframe is available and I will inform the House on that tomorrow morning.

Senators Ó Murchú, Hanafin and Mullen expressed their shock, horror and disappointment about the 100 immigrants in Belfast, in the North, who found themselves in what must be called a fight for their lives. I agree with the concern and views expressed by the Senators. We must show solidarity with those people because it is only 50, 60 or 70 years ago that members of our families and friends were in the same position in other countries trying to get a start in life. I look forward to supporting all of those people who are looking for a new life to get assistance. I agree with the sentiments expressed earlier in that regard.

Senator Prendergast called on the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House for a debate on the interpretation of special needs in schools, particularly in terms of those young people suffering from autism. Anything we can do to help them must be done. It is extremely important that at a very early age they are given all the assistance that can be given. It is wonderful to see the progress that takes place when that help is given to those young boys and girls. I have no difficulty in having that matter addressed in the House with the Minister present. I hope the Minister will be in the House for the debate. I am doing everything I can to discuss all matters and the up to date position in regard to the Health Service Executive before the summer recess.

Senator Prendergast also spoke about the ambulance services. The comfort of patients is of the utmost importance when they are undertaking journeys of 100 and 130 miles. It is a long journey for a patient to travel from Clonmel to Dublin. I fully agree with the sentiments expressed by the Senator about that area.

Senator Coffey and Senator Hanafin raised the issue of pricing orders North and South and called for co-operation with our ministerial colleagues in the North in regard to alcohol prices and alcohol abuse. I agree fully with the call made about that issue.

Senator Cummins called for a debate on extra spaces in our prisons. That is a worthwhile call and I am aware the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be only too pleased to come to the House to give us the up to date position. I am aware an extra 400 new places are being put in place this year. I will arrange for this debate to take place if at all possible.

Senator Ó Domhnaill called for the banks to make funding available for small and medium sized enterprises, particularly now that it appears local bank managers no longer have the discretion or the authority they had many years ago. Applications to all the banks now go to their central offices in Dublin. The credit control committees take over from there but they do not know the people who have been working in the various rural areas over the years making the commitments and providing employment, all of whom have credibility. I agree with the Senators on this issue. Anyone who is creating employment should be given top priority, and that should be the message from this Government. I am aware the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance are doing everything they can-----

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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-----with the banks in regard to this area.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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When is it going to act?

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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If someone is giving employment, and I speak with considerable experience in this regard-----

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Go for it.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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-----they are a respected person in terms of what they can do to make a contribution and help people to work in the land where they were born and reared.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should raise it with the Minister.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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That is of the utmost importance at the present time.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Agreed.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer called for a debate on sport with the Minister present. I have no difficulty in having that debate take place at the earliest possible time.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Healy Eames has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That a debate on the cancellation of the bilateral agreement on foreign adoptions between Ireland and Vietnam be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 21 (Ivana Bacik, Paul Bradford, Paddy Burke, Jerry Buttimer, Ciarán Cannon, Paudie Coffey, Paul Coghlan, Maurice Cummins, Paschal Donohoe, Frances Fitzgerald, Dominic Hannigan, Fidelma Healy Eames, Nicky McFadden, Rónán Mullen, David Norris, Joe O'Reilly, Joe O'Toole, Eugene Regan, Shane Ross, Brendan Ryan, Alex White)

Against the motion: 23 (Martin Brady, Larry Butler, Ivor Callely, John Carty, Donie Cassidy, Maria Corrigan, Mark Daly, Geraldine Feeney, John Gerard Hanafin, Cecilia Keaveney, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Brian Ó Domhnaill, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Francis O'Brien, Denis O'Donovan, Fiona O'Malley, Ned O'Sullivan, Ann Ormonde, Kieran Phelan, Jim Walsh, Mary White, Diarmuid Wilson)

Tellers: Tá, Senators Jerry Buttimer and Maurice Cummins; Níl, Senators Labhrás Ó Murchú and Diarmuid Wilson.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.