Seanad debates
Tuesday, 28 April 2009
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the Association for Criminal Justice Research and Development Report on Minorities and the Criminal Justice System, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 6.15 p.m. Spokespersons may speak for 15 minutes, all other Senators may speak for ten minutes, Senators may share time and the Minister is to be called upon ten minutes from the end of the debate for concluding comments and to take questions from leaders and spokespersons.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Every day in this country businesses are facing ever more pressure. As every Senator will be aware, unemployment is rising. We frequently meet people at the doors where there is not just one person unemployed but a family of three and four. If it is not direct family members, it is in-laws or daughters' sons who have lost their jobs and one meets parents worrying about mortgage repayments and how their sons and daughters in turn will pay their mortgages.
It is disturbing to read the words of the former Minister of State, Deputy John McGuinness. It is quite shocking to read in the Irish Examiner what he said. He spoke about the inefficiency and lack of professionalism that confronted him at both political and bureaucratic levels within the Department tasked with the job of supporting our businesses and enterprise, and putting the initiatives in the budget that will help business. Of course we did not see these initiatives in the budget and businesses are waiting nearly 18 months for the kind of support they need to maintain and protect jobs.
I want to move an amendment to the Order of Business, to ask for an urgent debate on job creation, job protection and training. This is an internal Government spat. People watching it really are disgusted because they want to see a plan to ensure jobs can be protected and created, and that people will have access to the kind of training they need and not be left at home for months on end having lost their job with no possibility of retraining or entering employment again. That is where the focus should be. That is to where we must bring the focus back and I want to see this House bringing the focus back to that today.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I raised the issue of Shell in north Mayo last week and at the time I was not aware of the full facts of the matter. I want to make clear in this situation that as somebody who have been a constant critic of Shell for more decades than I care to remember and who has been a street protestor all my life, addressed protest meetings, sat on streets and engaged in civil actions against various matters time and again, I support and admire people who take such actions. However, I do not, will not and cannot condone the kind of intimidation that is going on at present.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I received a telephone call from a young man during the week. He is a young newly-qualified engineer with a job with a company which got some work from Shell and who is working down there. He spoke of people coming outside his door, blowing horns and intimidating families. It is quite appalling. This idea of balaclava-clad people breaking in and attacking workers is something which I will not and cannot support. If we put it up to Shell with stringent regulations, laws and requirements, arraign it in front of boards and make it jump the bar, and it does all that, then we, in a democracy, have a clear responsibility to ensure the law of the land is maintained. What is happening in Mayo, where people are fearful of speaking out and being intimidated, is far from left-wing activity. It smacks more of fascism. All last week's activities must be investigated. I have heard claim and counter-claim and spoken to people on all sides. However, I have no time for balaclava-clad people in the dead of night imposing and supporting terror. No democratically elected person can have time for such activity. I completely disagree with the Government handing away the mineral rights of this country for a song to Shell and to others.
David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear. They were handed away for nothing.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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That is, however, another issue. The fact is that the law is in place. I voted against it and I was outvoted. The Government should take control of this and support the Garda in Mayo whose members are badly used and misused.
I want a debate on this issue and that we hear all sides of it. I also hope the two Eamons, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, would stop their popularity contest in Mayo and take action on this issue.
Alex White (Labour)
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The hospitals co-location project that was announced with much fanfare by the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, and her colleagues in Government was buried by measures taken in the recent budget. Now that this project, which involved the folly of relying on the property development sector to deal with the development of health care, is in tatters, like many of the Government's policies, will the Leader arrange a debate with the Minister on how we will fund our health care system and how we will end, once and for all, the disgrace of the two-tier health care system in which people's means and incomes determine, if not the quality of health care, at least the speed at which they receive it?
In that context, I warmly welcome the publication yesterday by the Fine Gael Party of a policy programme for universal health insurance. It is an excellent contribution to the debate. The Labour Party has held the view for the best part of a decade and has published extensive policy documents to the effect that universal health insurance is clearly the way we should have proceeded when the matter was being addressed in recent years. It now manifestly is the way forward. I ask the Leader that the Minister for Health and Children attend the House to address the crucial question of health care funding now that the co-location project is at an end.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call Senator Harris, I remind Members their contributions on the Order of Business are confined to a maximum of two minutes.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
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I strongly support Senator O'Toole on the Shell to Sea campaign. Over the past several weeks, three groups of men wearing balaclavas have gathered in this country without any apparent fear of the law. In Limerick, 20 to 25 men intimidated Stephen Collins whose son was shot to death by a murder gang there. Last week in County Mayo men wearing balaclavas broke into the Shell site. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of the Internet will know that the Shell to Sea campaign has long ago-----
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
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Senator Norris is what Lenin called a useful idiot.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Harris, without interruption. If any Member interrupts, I will ask him or her to leave the Chamber.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
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The third group of people wearing balaclavas were a group of a dissident republicans who broke the windows of the Sinn Féin Northern Ireland Assembly Member, Daithí McKay, the other night. He had been standing up for Protestants who had been subjected to sectarian attacks.
The Limerick group has links with dissident republicans. The Shell to Sea campaign is infested, as I told Senator Norris last week, with them. Senator Norris is ridiculous. He should go on the Internet to check the Éirígí website to see who is running the Shell to Sea campaign.
Their spiritual first cousins in Northern Ireland are intimidating Sinn Féin Northern Ireland Assembly Members. That is a disgrace. I particularly call, as Senator O'Toole did, on the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, and the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to stop conniving, going down on their knees and pleading with these people, as they did a few weeks ago in begging Maura Harrington to come off hunger strike. That kind of slumming with Sinn Féin or IRA people always ends in trouble. I predicted some time ago that Dr. Jerry Cowley would lose his seat if he connived with these people. I tell Senator Norris-----
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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There should be no comments across the floor.
Eoghan Harris (Independent)
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-----that if he keeps on playing with these people, they will blow up in his face some day.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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I agree with the calls from my colleagues for a debate on health care. Fine Gael has proposed an alternative policy which deserves debate in this House and I ask the Leader to facilitate this at an early stage.
The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, came to the House some time ago to discuss the cancer strategy. She proposed at that time that we would have centres of excellence under the guidance of Professor Tom Keane. It all sounded very good and it reassured the people that cancer care in this country would go to new levels. I am sorry to report to the House - this is already in the public domain - that a regional hospital, Waterford Regional Hospital, which was recently studied by HIQA, which is responsible for standards in hospitals, failed in three quarters of the standards that were required of it in regard to cancer care. This is a very sad indictment of our health policy. The Government has failed cancer patients when we hear of studies detailing these levels of substandard care for cancer patients.
I ask that the Leader bring the Minister for Health and Children to the House to further discuss this issue. Vulnerable cancer patients cannot afford to be without adequate care, particularly in our regional hospitals. Although BreastCheck was promised countrywide, I heard today that people in the north west, which is many miles from my area, will not have the service, which is a scandal in this day and age. I ask the Leader to address this matter urgently.
I was horrified to discover recently that with the cap on public recruitment, clerical officers will not be covered for summer work, which will have a huge knock-on effect for patients in our hospitals. Waterford Regional Hospital, which caters for more than 450,000 people, does not have digital voice recording systems or an IT system to keep up with medical patient records. Everything is dependent on the clerical officer and if a new person comes in, the whole medical history is lost. That will have a knock on effect on waiting lists. It needs to be urgently addressed.
I formally second the amendment by my colleague for an urgent debate on job creation. I have called for this on a number of occasions in the House. Waterford and the south east has suffered as much as any other part of the country. I ask the Leader to facilitate that as soon as possible.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Coffey is under the illusion that we do not have BreastCheck in the north west, but I am very pleased-----
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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-----to tell the Senator we have BreastCheck in the north west.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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We did not have it in Waterford until a few months ago.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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BreastCheck operates in the west but not in the north west.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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There should be no interruptions. The Senators will have their opportunity to speak later.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Deputy Jimmy Devins has lost his job.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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It was pointed out that there was no BreastCheck in the north west and I am replying to say that there is and that we are very pleased with it.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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It is not nationwide, as was promised.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Deputy Jimmy Devins has gone west as well.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please understand that no interruptions are allowed.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I inform Fine Gael Senators that it is working very effectively and the people of the north west are delighted with it.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer, there should be no interruptions.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I rise to ask the Leader, as other Members have done, to organise a debate on health, particularly in light of the new document issued by Fine Gael yesterday. I was just saying to my colleague, Senator O'Malley, that in 2006 when we were in New York at a UN General Assembly, Deputy Liz McManus was with us and she visited Boston. I agree with Senator Alex White that this issue has been the clothes of the Labour Party for a good many years, but the Mullingar accord is well and truly dead when one sees Fine Gael robbing Labour's coat.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Some people research their work, not like you.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should speak through the Chair and should not look for interruptions.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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You do not deliver, do you? You do not have a clue.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Healy Eames, there should be no interruptions or I will ask you to leave the Chamber.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Healy Eames should relax. I hope there will be something in the document for you.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should speak through the Chair on questions to the Leader.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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There are more questions than were answered yesterday. I heard the Fine Gael leader say he would not be caught off the ball by answering something when he was asked what it would cost middle-class Ireland-----
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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-----and what it will mean to taxpayers.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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The Government is spending €16 billion on health and there are no services.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael is giving unhelpful long lead-ins to deliver free GP and free pharmacy services. It is giving itself three years. It is a lot of wriggle room.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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It certainly will not work. Fine Gael has not researched it.
David Norris (Independent)
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I ask for a debate on the current difficulties that Dublin Bus is experiencing as a paradigm of the situation that exists now which can be very easily exploited by maverick elements. So many people are upset about the economy that it is easy to separate them from their legitimate union representatives. I deplore the fact that after six weeks' hard negotiations this has been frustrated in this way with intimidation, which is very regrettable.
I always hesitate to take a sectarian angle on anything and I regret having to use the word "Protestant". However, it is notable that the Church of Ireland Archbishop Dr. John Neill spoke very strongly about the way in which cuts, which he described as very discriminatory, will affect what he described as Protestant schools and described an unbelievable lack of understanding within the Department. Caretakers, secretaries and teachers will now all be lost in a dispersed and vulnerable community. I ask for a debate to allow us to look at this matter calmly.
I support Senator O'Toole's call for a debate on the Corrib gas field. This was disgracefully sold out by a previous Minister who is totally discredited. I have supported some of the campaigns and protests of Shell to Sea as have many distinguished clergy. I know of no connection that has been demonstrated between them and the Real IRA or any of these thugs. However, I would welcome an opportunity to scotch this. In response to my dear friend Senator Harris, I do not mind if he thought Lenin would call me an idiot. Lots of other people have done so too.
David Norris (Independent)
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However, there was more of Stalin than Lenin about that.
Dracula is a very famous book written by a famous son of this city. He was a cousin of my great grandmother and I am glad to say I have entertained many members of his family here today, including D'Acre Stoker and previously his great grandson. The family has suggested that particularly since Romania has exploited this mercilessly and the town of Whitby has become the most popular resort in Britain on the basis of the Dracula connection, is it not time that we did something and put a statue of Bram Stoker somewhere in this city which he helped to make famous?
David Norris (Independent)
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Mr. D'Acre Stoker is writing a sequel to Dracula and film contracts have already been signed.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I support the proposed amendment to the Order of Business calling for a debate on job creation because of the devastatingly increasing pressure on business. There are some horror stories throughout the land. Despite the moneys that were allegedly earmarked within the banking system to assist small and enterprising businesses, this is clearly not available. Every day enterprising business people are being refused by our banks, which prompts the question as to when we will have the full recapitalisation. More importantly and allied to this - the Leader has a clear duty to arrange a debate in very early course - is that statement regarding the inefficiency and lack of professionalism of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment which, if true, is a damning indictment of the Department. We in this House, and presumably those in the other House, need this answered immediately. As soon as the Tánaiste returns from the trade mission to the Far East, the Leader should arrange for her to come to the House to deal with that entire subject matter. In dealing with the pressure on business and the lack of finance available, when will the Government inform us of the proposed timeline for the creation of NAMA? With regard to the €90 billion mentioned, when will we know the true figure? When will we be made aware of the bad loan losses? We will not make any recovery until this situation is sorted out but, sadly, it seems the Government is dragging its feet on this major matter. I ask the Leader to arrange for a debate on the issue and to respond on this.
Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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I agree with Senators O'Toole and Harris about the level of intimidation to which workers are subjected when they try to go to work. The Shell to Sea campaign is ongoing. We visited the site in question and what is happening there is disgraceful. I agree completely with what Senator O'Toole said, that the Ministers with responsibility in that area need to get down to business and ensure people can go to work. We saw the effect this has on the economy in Belmullet and the surrounding area. We have heard here today how desperately we need work and employment throughout the country and the Belmullet area is thriving as a result of Shell. We need to get the gas onshore.
There is another case of intimidation of workers today in Dublin Bus. This is a wildcat strike, which is a disgrace. Workers who have jobs are trying to get to work, but they cannot do so because of a ridiculous dispute over a roster. The unions need to get a grip on the issue. Dublin Bus is a public service and the travelling public are entitled that service. Workers too are entitled to go to work without being intimidated. The strike is an outrage. Union leaders must stand up to this kind of behaviour. It is time we had a debate in the House on the matter.
Ciarán Cannon (Progressive Democrats)
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I too support the call for a debate on job creation. It was most disturbing to hear a former Minister of State at the Department that is supposed to be charged with creating jobs say he was sorry he did not have time to kick a larger hole in the wall of incompetence within the Department. Job creation is the single most effective tool the country has to turn the country around.
Ciarán Cannon (Progressive Democrats)
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Dropping tax revenue and creating jobs is the solution. It is, perhaps, because the former Minister of State came from a business background that he realised the kinds of supports needed to allow indigenous Irish business develop. I agree foreign direct investment is wonderful and we should do all we can to ensure it continues, but the real potential for job creation here has always been and will continue to be through indigenous job creation.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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That is what the Department is there for.
3:00 pm
Ciarán Cannon (Progressive Democrats)
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I support the call for the Minister to come in to have that debate.
The second issue I wish to raise is the issue of the Government's proposed early childhood services, one of the most welcome developments of the recent budget. I spoke to a gentleman yesterday who, because he had a passion for teaching, quit his job at 35 or 36 years of age and returned to college for three years to become a primary school teacher. He looked forward to contributing to the education of children in his area, but now he finds himself without a job. At the end of this term a new group of teachers will graduate from educational colleges around the country, but they will have no jobs to go to.
Last December, UNICEF conducted an international report on early childhood services which set out ten minimum standards that outlined the rights of children to proper early childhood and early educational services. Much to its shame, Ireland complied with only one of those minimum standards. We have a cohort of well qualified teachers who are now on social welfare. The man I spoke to suggested that rather than stare at the four walls of his house each day, he would be willing to begin that service to enhance educational services across the board, for little or no money other than what he gets on social welfare. That kind of willingness to get us out of the mess in which we find ourselves exists among certain sectors of the population. Will the Leader arrange a debate on this to see whether there is an innovative way to use this cohort of unemployed teachers to improve the education system for our children?
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I draw the Leader's attention to this afternoon's launch by the Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security, of which I am a member, of a document entitled Drive for Zero. The document would make a useful template for a debate in the Seanad. I give credit to Deputy Coveney, Senator Buttimer's colleague.
Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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He was the driving force, to pardon the pun, behind the document, which has the full support of the committee. It has potential for job creation, which is important, and may make a significant contribution to making the country greener.
I fully support Senator O'Toole and others who referred to the Bellanaboy controversy. Like Senator O'Malley, I visited County Mayo recently and I was impressed by what I saw at the plant, namely, its construction, the numbers employed and the positive mood across that area of north Mayo. The development has recession-proofed towns such as Belmullet. Many people, including parents and young workers, asked us to support it and to prevent the intimidation by bully boys and others from stopping its completion. It is an important project for the future. Many of the people involved are from all over the country, not just Mayo. Young professional engineers and so on are awaiting the project's conclusion, after which they will try to get jobs at the new LNG project in Ballylongford. We in County Kerry would be disappointed were anything like the bully-boy tactics seen in County Mayo to be used in Kerry. They would not be tolerated.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I support the points made by Senators O'Toole and Harris regarding the Shell to Sea campaign. There is increasing evidence that it has been infiltrated and has now become very suspect. The concept of peaceful protest is upheld by the law, but such skullduggery is unacceptable and adds to the time and expense spent by the Garda Síochána. It is a considerable distraction and should be condemned.
I ask the Leader about the Seanad's work schedule. My group leader, Senator Fitzgerald, has suggested the need for a debate on job creation. Instead, we will have statements on a report of a seminar that occurred last October. While the subject of minorities in the criminal justice system is important, we comprise the Legislature and we should have legislation. We should be debating the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2009, in which context the issue in question could be discussed. However, merely filling space-----
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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-----with statements does the House no credit. Will the Leader reconsider the tabling of such items instead of moving forward with legislation to which the Government has committed itself in successive programmes? That the Government continually fails to fulfil its legislative programme is not the fault of the House.
According to an article in today's edition of The Irish Times, Mr. Naoise Nunn, who was heavily involved in the Libertas campaign on the Lisbon treaty referendum, has abandoned the Libertas ship. Judging by recent polls in Ireland, Poland and elsewhere, it is a sinking ship.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Nunn stated that both sides were guilty of scaremongering and misinformation. However the only time the "Yes" side was accused of scaremongering, that is, the Government and parties such as Fine Gael that promoted the Lisbon treaty, was when they put forward the simple proposition that the European Union was of fundamental importance to the Irish economy.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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He now has accepted this proposition and it is the main reason he has abandoned opposition to Lisbon.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps Senator Norris could learn a lesson from the example of-----
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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-----Mr. Nunn and reconsider his position on the Lisbon treaty in the future. Libertas has done enormous damage to Ireland and in fairness to Mr. Nunn, he is playing his part in ensuring it does not happen again.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I join Senator Fitzgerald and other speakers in asking for a debate on job creation. Senator Feeney and others should note the people are tired of the internal wrangling in Fianna Fáil. They do not care and it is a non-story.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer should dream on.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer, without interruption, please.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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What people want are jobs and job retention-----
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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They do not want Deputy Kenny anyway.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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More importantly, they seek leadership from the Government.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer, without interruption from anyone else.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Last week, the Leader did Members, including me, a disservice by refusing to answer my request. I hope he will do so today because the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has not come to the House since her appointment.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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What does this tell Members about unemployment and her attitudes to the unemployed?
I also ask the Leader for a debate on the role of the Revenue Commissioners. I have been informed anecdotally that Revenue, correctly in some cases, has been challenging and investigating small enterprises. I find it extraordinary that Revenue is asking small to medium enterprise owners the reason their revenue is down. Is Revenue unaware there is a recession on? Is it unable to see it or feel it? Rather than harassing business people, the Leader should agree that small to medium enterprises should be assisted in accessing money from banks. Senator Coghlan is correct in this regard. When will full recapitalisation take place and when will small people be able to gain access to money to continue be able to trade? I hope the Leader replies to this point.
Finally, a debate is required on both gangland crime and on law and order. I agree with Senator Harris that too much intimidation takes place in Ireland at present. There is neither respect for nor fear of the law at present and this must be restored. We must revert to the reality that there must be law which is respected and by which all citizens must abide. Moreover, crime must be punished. A message should be sent to those who support crime that their time is up. Members must take a collective stance because for far too long-----
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I will conclude by noting that Fianna Fáil entered Government on a zero-tolerance policy that it has abandoned to the four winds. The ordinary person has suffered in consequence and it is time that Members stood up to such thugs.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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While naturally I would share in the calls for a debate on the economy and to have such a debate at the earliest opportunity, to call for such a debate today in the full and certain knowledge that the Tánaiste is abroad doing her duty is inappropriate. The Leader might arrange such a debate at the next timely opportunity. This is an issue about which Members have some expertise because they can recall the many different schemes, proposals and incentives that were introduced in the 1980s and early 1990s to ensure people returned to work. Such innovative methods exist or, in other words, Members have been all around the houses on this issue and could have a useful debate on this specific issue that would contribute to the national debate.
I also wish to share in the views of those who are highly disappointed with the Shell to Sea campaign. In the mid-19th century in England, on the introduction of mechanisation to agricultural areas, a group called the Luddites destroyed the machines.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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Attempts by people in the Shell to Sea campaign to destroy machinery are somewhat similar. Moreover, I suggest that having a gas interconnector in tandem with the supplies off the west coast is not only useful but could be essential for our national development.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The role of government should be to serve the needs of its people and on consideration of the present actions of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coughlan, I call for her to come before this House to justify her purpose and her portfolio. Any Minister who oversees the exit of €500 million in VAT from the country deserves to have the portfolio taken from her by the Government. The way she is constantly hitting business and jobs is criminal. It is urgent that the Leader brings her into the House. By allowing these actions to continue, it is the Government that is not being patriotic to its citizens. I would like the Tánaiste to attend the House to debate the delivery of her portfolio vis-À-vis job creation.
I call for a healthy and mature debate on the Freedom of Information Act. This week is the tenth anniversary of enactment of the Act. It is very important that we debate the need for broader scope for the Freedom of Information Act, in particular so that we can investigate the actions of the regulator and the Central Bank, public bodies that are not within the scope of the Freedom of Information Act. We have seen the value and the return to the Irish citizen that Senator Ross provided through the investigation of FÁS. We need this accountability for our people at this time.
I would be delighted if there was a debate on Fine Gael's wonderful and comprehensive policy on universal health. The party put much research, time and thought into it and I compliment Deputy James Reilly on that. The policy does not rely on co-location, where we are prepared to give our public assets to private interests, which this Government has relied on for some time. I look forward to the Leader addressing these three issues today.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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There have been indications in recent times that a different result will be achieved in the next referendum on the Lisbon treaty. There are a number of reasons that this may be the case. Guarantees have been received by the Government about some of the concerns that caused people to vote against the treaty on the last occasion. It is also connected to the present economic situation, where people have a greater sense of reality. It would be wrong to take for granted that we will achieve a different result later in the year. There is a possibility that because of the debates and the political fall-out that result from the global economic situation, the Lisbon treaty will be sidelined. We are aware of various meetings that are being held throughout the country, not involving political parties generally. There is still a great sense of anger and people could use the referendum to express anger that may have nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty.
We must consider what it would mean if we reject the Lisbon treaty a second time, particularly because of the economic crisis at the moment. It would expose Ireland to bankruptcy. We could not expect to call in favours or flexibility from the other countries in Europe in regard to legislation or monetary instruments. That would not happen. There is a sense in Europe that Ireland has not played its full role on this issue and has not demonstrated that it has a sense of appreciation for what it has achieved to date. I ask the Leader for an ongoing debate on the next referendum and not to wait until after the elections in June because we will lose time during the summer.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I read with disdain an article in the farming section of the Irish Independent today that a lady is getting 20 cent a litre for her milk. She is part of the Glanbia co-operative. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House for a serious debate on this matter. The woman is getting one fifth of the price the consumer pays for the milk, the same price she got in 1983. The family is on the bread line and depends on its savings. We must depend on indigenous industry and we should be supporting farmers. I am sure the meaning of co-operative is obvious - it is a body made of up of parties co-operating and supporting each other. Nevertheless, Glanbia is ripping off our farmers so what is the Government going to do about it? It is incumbent on the Leader and the Fianna Fáil-Green Party Government to sort out this issue. There will be farming families who will not be able to put food on the table.
The Minister for Finance spoke at a meeting of the Irish League of Credit Unions on Saturday and was clapping himself on the back for the way in which he has brought the country forward, etc. He was speaking about how those in Europe are amazed at the steps he has taken in the budget and how no other European government would have been able to deal with the public service as he has done by imposing these dreadful levies.
I have been canvassing, as I am sure the Leader has, and we have met many people who are extraordinarily angry because they are down €50 or €60 per week. I assure the Minister, Deputy Lenihan, that when the full facts of this budget come to affect people at the end of May, there will be riots. The Minister stated that there have not been riots on the streets like there would be in France. The wrath of the Irish people has not yet come to the fore and this Government will know about it on 5 June.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Coffey, Coghlan, Cannon, Buttimer, Hanafin and Healy Eames called for a debate with the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, in the House. As we all know, the Minister is out of the country currently.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I have no difficulty with such a debate as this is a most important request and debate, so much so that I am prepared to provide for an all-day debate on the challenges facing the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, especially as they relate to job creation and competitiveness, which has often been outlined to the House by Senator Mary White. The greatest challenge facing us is our competitiveness and this is an ideal opportunity for everyone concerned to be able to meet these challenges and set in place a formula of policies that will enable us to play our part in the next five to ten years with regard to job creation.
There are also the areas of upskilling and retraining and the important role which FÁS is playing. I wholeheartedly welcome the new initiative by FÁS in County Westmeath in particular and Senator McFadden would agree with me. There has also been a roll-out to rural areas like Castlepollard, where we have a new centre. It provides help for rural places such as my local town, where the number on the unemployment register has increased by 150%. That is a serious position and we must use the opportunity to upskill and retrain the excellent young workforce which is available and assist it in every way in preparing for jobs in two or three years.
I fully agree with the sentiments and views expressed by all Senators. Everyone in this House and every Member of Dáil Éireann wants to see something done urgently with regard to competitiveness and job creation. Another issue exercising all of us, because we are meeting people on the doorsteps when canvassing, is the banking system. Credit is not being made available currently.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Irrespective of the spin being put on the matter, no organisation or individual needs a spin doctor if they are telling the truth. The truth of the matter is that currently-----
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Leader's party has had many of them.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The party has spent a fortune on them.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I want to give the House, including the Senator, the benefit of my experience. Credit is not being made available to those who are giving employment. Some 880,000 people have been employed by the small and medium employers and the people who have created the Celtic tiger over the past ten to 15 years, and they must be supported. The Finance Bill is coming to the House in the next three weeks, as Senators know. I intend to hold an all-day debate on that Bill. Following a period of calm reflection, the House can play an important role in offering assistance to the Minister when he is present in the House for the debate on the legislation. If the banks do not make credit available during the next three months, what might happen in this country prior to Christmas is unthinkable.
Everyone is aware of what is happening. Members who are canvassing for the European and local elections have heard stories from those with whom they attended school, grew up and worked. We know not only the people of the generation to which I refer but those of us who are old enough know the members of the two generations which preceded it and we are aware of the massive contribution made by those decent, hard-working families. The Government and legislators of all political persuasions owe it to people whose backs are to the wall to forego the opportunity to score political points and to instead assist them in their hour of greatest need. When things were bad in the 1970s and 1980s, emigration provided people with the opportunity to seek work elsewhere, but that opportunity no longer exists. An 87 year old man informed me in recent days that he has never known a period when small and medium-sized businesses faced so many challenges.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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Who has been in power for most of the past 20 years? The answer is Fianna Fáil.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Does the Leader make statements of this nature at meetings of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party? That is where he should be making those comments.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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The Leader's party has been in government for the better part of 20 years.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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We know that happened when Senator Coffey's party was last in government.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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We brought the economy back to life and we will do so again.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The standard rate of tax under the Senator's party was 35%.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Leader should consider the facts. He is afraid to knock on doors.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The people of Ireland have never forgiven Fine Gael.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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They have never given the Senator's party a mandate in the interim.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader should be allowed to reply to the Order of Business, without interruption.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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We created 1,000 jobs per week in the 1980s.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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That was before the Senator was born.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Leader must look to the facts. He is afraid to knock on doors.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer should not make any further interruptions.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The people have seen through Fianna Fáil at last..
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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This is not a county council meeting.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Those in the Leader's party are afraid to knock on doors.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Due to the fact that there was no room at the inn on this side of the House, the Senator went to the opposite side.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I would never have joined Fianna Fáil. I would not stand for election on behalf of a shower like those in that party.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators O'Toole, Harris, Norris, O'Malley, O' Sullivan, Regan, Buttimer and Hanafin-----
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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They are picking people's pockets. Wait until the first week in June.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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If Senator Buttimer makes any further interruptions, he will be asked to leave the Chamber immediately or I will ask the Leader to name him.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I would take great pleasure in doing so.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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There should be no further interruptions.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach has spoken.
Senators O'Toole, Harris, Norris, O'Malley, O'Sullivan, Regan, Buttimer and Hanafin requested a debate on the difficulties being experienced as a result of challenges to law and order in Mayo and other parts of the country. On Thursday next, all Senators will be able to make statements on gangland crime during an all-day debate on the subject. I look forward to the contributions of all those who made requests for such a debate. I have made arrangements to allocate 15 minutes for the contributions of spokespersons and ten minutes for those of other Senators. This is the most serious challenge the system of democracy in this country has faced for some time. I call on all Members to make a contribution to the debate on this serious challenge to our democracy.
Senators Alex White, Coffey, Feeney and Healy Eames requested that the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, come before the House to discuss all matters - co-location, the national cancer strategy, BreastCheck etc. - relating to the operation of the health service and the challenges faced by her Department. The Minister has come to the House on many occasions and has always been forthcoming when answering questions. I look forward to her presence in the House and have no difficulty in agreeing to arrange this debate.
Senators Norris and O'Malley expressed their serious views on the interruption of the bus service in Dublin and the challenges faced by customers as a result. I look forward to a speedy conclusion of this difficulty and will leave time aside for statements next week if the dispute is not resolved. I also have no difficulty allocating time for the debate requested by Senator Norris and join him in welcoming Bram Stoker's family to the House.
Senators Coghlan and McFadden highlighted the issues of job creation and the banks. Fine Gael has tabled the motion for Private Members' business tomorrow so the Senators can express their concerns about the national assets management agency, NAMA, then.
Senator Cannon called for a debate on early childhood education initiatives he has outlined to the House. I have no difficulty with having the Minister come here to debate that in the near future. Senator O'Sullivan mentioned the report, Drive for Zero, prepared by the Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security and I join him in congratulating the committee on the good work it did. I will arrange for a debate on this issue at some point in the future, time permitting.
Senator Regan asked about the business of the House. Following the changes to the Ministers of State last week, we have had to redraw the Order of Business for the week and I thank Senators for their understanding. Legislation has always taken precedence and its importance has been to the forefront of our activities. Seven changes were made in the ranks of the Ministers of State and some them are currently outside the country. I acknowledge the co-operation of the Whips and thank my colleagues for their understanding and patience. Things should be back to normal next week.
Senator Buttimer called for a debate on the Revenue Commissioners. I will fully accede to this request and look forward to the participation of Members in such a debate. The Revenue Commissioners, like everyone else, will find it difficult to collect money because businesses are finding it difficult to collect money. If credit is not made available by the banks, the Revenue Commissioners will find they are in the same situation as those in private enterprise.
Senator Ó Murchú gave the House the benefit of his views on the forthcoming referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and the challenges we face. I agree that the economic future of Ireland lies with Europe, that has never been truer. I shudder to think what would have happened to our interest rates were we not in Europe.
Senator McFadden called for a debate on agriculture as we see prices for milk fall to 1983 levels. Our hearts go out to those in the agricultural sector. Those of us from the lake county of Westmeath know what is happening daily as we meet constituents. The co-operative movement, which was set up by the grandfather of Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher, has certainly stood the test of time. Those who have read the book telling his life story will acknowledge that it was a wonderful idea which served the rural community and, indeed, every part of Ireland well through the years.