Seanad debates

Tuesday, 17 February 2009

2:30 pm

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re draft Planning and Development (Regional Planning Guidelines) Regulations 2009, to be referred to committee, without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, Adoption Bill 2009 — Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 1 and to adjourn not later than 6.30 p.m., if not previously concluded, with spokespersons having 12 minutes and all other Senators seven minutes and on which Senators may share time by agreement of the House; and No. 3, Charities Bill 2007 — Report Stage.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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There is absolute rage, anger and fury among the public at what they see happening in the banking sector. People are outraged and there is considerable concern that we are putting more and more taxpayers' money into what is, essentially, a very flawed and unmanageable system. People are very concerned about the lack of regulation.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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The question is whether we intend to clean up the banks and the regulations by putting in new people and devising stricter regulation. People are extremely concerned. They are also very upset by the golden handshakes they see and the bonuses that people have received. They do not believe this should happen. It is fuelling social unrest and giving rise to a sense of inequity and inequality. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, to the House to speak again about regulation. We did not see it in the agreement with the banks that we discussed in the House last Thursday. The belief out there is that the banks got off very lightly in the new recapitalisation agreement with the Government. It is as if the Government is afraid to touch the banks and be really strict. Apart from a couple of calls for the chairmen and chief executive officers to resign, which is right, what is happening to regulation? Why are stricter regulations, terms and conditions not coming in? Everybody is saying we must see much more regulation than we have.

While Fianna Fáil and Green Party Members have been calling for resignations of people in the banking sector there is a deeper question. Who in the Department of Finance and Government knew what about these banking deals and when?

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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It is one thing to talk about banking accountability but we had better start talking about political accountability for these decisions. Many will have seen the very disturbing article in the The Sunday Times which outlined a series of events regarding €300 million worth of Anglo Irish Bank shares which changed hands apparently with the agreement of the Department of Finance, the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank. There was some talk about wearing the green jersey, but the markets were not informed. How damaging is this? I ask the Leader and Members on the other side of the House whether the Minister for Finance and his Department knew about this and if the Minister was not informed, why not. The most serious questions of governance arise regarding these issues in the public arena, and which The Sunday Times has published in a very detailed article which makes for most disturbing reading. It is also most disturbing in terms of our international reputation. We need the Minister in the House again because the most serious regulation issues arise from the most recent revelations.

Going back to a debate we had last week on special needs education and the cutbacks in classes, people throughout the country are appalled at these cutbacks. Parents of children with special needs are really upset that their children are not getting the supports they need and that their progress will be completely hampered by the withdrawal of these special needs assistants. I want to move an amendment to the Order of Business to ask the Minister for Education and Science to account to this House, as he did not when he was here last week, for his policy on special needs in this country.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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He is cutting back on the most vulnerable when we are pumping billions of euro into the banks with light regulation. He is taking away €5 million from children with special needs in classrooms who need one-to-one support and who are still not getting it early enough. They are still not being diagnosed and given the help they need early enough, and our schools are struggling to do their best for them. As I said last week, the INTO said this is an outrageous dismantling of special education in this country, especially when one sees the light regulation on banking.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I could not agree more with Senator Fitzgerald's final comments. We have all received telephone calls from schools. This morning I spoke to a representative from a school in Kilrush who was in tears about how the school would deal with a child at the end of a peninsula. The school cannot see how a child who is very seriously disadvantaged can be helped without these classes. We will come back to that in the debate.

In recent days there has been a major debate about the former Anglo Irish Bank chairman, Mr. Seán FitzPatrick, not appearing before the Oireachtas committee. We had better discuss this and what is happening. There is a view that the regulation sub-committee of Leinster House should be some sort of star chamber for show trials. When the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 was going through the House, former Senators Brian Hayes and Derek McDowell and I said we were rushing it through and that it would be full of flaws. That related to the amendment to the Bill. Section 12 clearly states, "A statement or admission made ... shall not be admissible as evidence against the person in any criminal proceedings". If I were in danger of criminal proceedings I would be rushing in here to give evidence so it could not be used as evidence against me in the courts.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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What are we doing? Are the people on these committees clear about what they are doing? They are walking into trouble. There must be a clear understanding about these issues. The regulation committee should be doing the tedious, painstaking work of examining auditing and governance structures, auditing stress tests, reporting procedures and responsibilities, and ethics arising from accountancy and auditing. That must be done. I sat on the compellability committee chaired by former Deputy Des O'Malley more than ten years ago and we examined many of these matters at the time. We lost in the Supreme Court on the issue.

We must be absolutely careful how we do this. The Oireachtas is not a court of law. The Constitution clearly separates the roles of politicians and the courts and let us acknowledge that. The committee has work to do. It can certainly investigate what took place in Anglo Irish Bank and the other banks in terms of how this came to be and how the head of treasury and the head of credit had the discretion to move €7 billion without bothering to talk to the chief executive officer, the chairman or the board. Many questions can be asked but the committee cannot delve into the affairs of individuals who might be subject to criminal proceedings down the line. We should be very careful about doing that.

I seek a debate on this issue, in which we can discuss what can and cannot be done. It is pointless to run in front of the media and think one can just call for it and it will be done. That is not what committees are for. They were never there to replace the courts, and God forbid we would ever go down that road.

As Senator Fitzgerald said, we are seeing a society that is disintegrating before our eyes with anger at the Government. After 15 years with the best record of industrial peace in any European country and the best record for growing productivity, the spirit of partnership in the workplace is about to be shattered. Clearly, we are facing industrial unrest. People might think they can face this down but there is no facing it down. It will simply grow, as will the anger. The Government will be atomised in the local elections the way things are going at present. That is not good for anyone; it is not the way society should go.

There are issues to be dealt with. We could consider a situation whereby the lowest categories of people being forced to pay a pension levy would be taken out of it and instead of charging 9.9% on the highest categories, we could reallocate it as 6% for extra pension and 3.9% as an additional income levy and apply it across the board on anybody earning more than €90,000 in the public or private sectors. That is something the unions would have to consider seriously, it would give the Government its money, would not have a downside and would result in a society moving forward together. There are issues but there are always solutions.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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We keep returning to the issues of accountability and the role of the Houses and the committees. These Houses are not providing any real forum for accountability, and that is the problem. Senator Fitzgerald is correct about the fury and outrage and that there must be an opportunity for the Minister to come to the House to answer questions. However, Ministers regularly come to this House. The Leader can agree to invite the Minister to the House next week or the week after, be it Deputy Mansergh or Deputy Brian Lenihan, if he has the time, but it will not make any difference because we do not get any answers.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Exactly.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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What is the point? I do not say we should not invite them but what is the point?

Senator O'Toole said the committee is not a Star Chamber. Nobody expects it to be a Star Chamber, but people are crying out for accountability and for questions to be answered. They are not being answered anywhere else so why can they not be answered in the Parliament of the people? If the Minister comes to this House, can it be on the basis of a real expectation that he can give answers to questions?

I recall the Minister for Finance being in the House last September, on that long dark night of the soul we experienced. I recall asking him what exactly had happened on the day the Government extended the guarantee. We never got an answer as to what happened in the room that night. Does anybody, apart from the Minister and those who were present, know what happened that night? It has never been revealed to the public. What precisely was said by the bankers and their advisers to persuade the State effectively to commit the deeds of the State, as others have described it, in a guarantee to the banks? What was the reason for this? It might have been the right thing to do, although I believe it was not and many commentators are coming around to that view. I might be wrong but we will never be able to assess that or work out who is right and who is wrong until we are told why. I mean something more than the bland statement the Minister constantly makes about the system and the worries about it, with this and that bank having systemic importance, and all of this kind of stuff that we can get through. What was said and what was going to happen if the decision was not made? As somebody asked this morning, what was said in the immediate lead-up to the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank? What was the trigger reason that it was done on the occasion when it was done?

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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We cannot have any debate, whether in a committee, here, in the public press or anywhere else if we are not being given the information. What is the basis upon which these decisions are being made? None of that has been provided here, in the other House or in the committee, and we need to wake up to that fact because we are only fooling ourselves.

I will finish on this because it is related. In the newspapers today there is a report of the Minister wanting to revisit the question of TDs' and Senators' expenses, allowances and otherwise. This is a sensitive topic for my colleagues in the House but look at what is happening. People are losing their jobs. There are people in this building, public servants, who are having the State delve into their pay in respect of their pensions. Are we seriously going to maintain the position that as Members of these Houses we ought not to sacrifice something as well? Is there anybody in this House who will take that view? If so, he or she should stand up and say so because this is a very serious situation.

There should be transparency, but it looks as if there needs to be more than just transparency, there needs to be a significant reduction in these matters. Personally, I support any suggestion that has been made, whether it is from the Green Party or from the Minister, that there should be moves on this and it should be done soon.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I pay tribute to the efforts of the two unarmed gardaí in rescuing Julien and Emma Flynn and their family from the armed raid on their home in Lackagh village on Sunday, 15 February. I am sure all Members of the House will join me in praising their courage and professionalism. Perhaps the Leader of the House will relay the congratulations of the House to the members of Oranmore Garda station via the Garda Commissioner, Fachtna Murphy. We all should be very proud of our police force and the work it does on behalf of the civilians, and of the courage and bravery of those two young gardaí, who went there unarmed and faced four or five very heavily armed robbers who tied up and terrorised the family. It was a terrible crime and I hope those involved will be brought to justice as quickly as possible.

On the Corrib gas field, I ask the Leader of the House, Senator Donie Cassidy, to ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to update the House on the development by Shell of the Corrib natural gas project. In the current economic situation, it is vital that the State takes maximum benefit from the project in terms of royalties.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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We must ensure the State secures the best possible arrangement under the revised application——

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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It is about time we heard it from that side.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——submitted by Shell last week to An Bord Pleanála and to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. The field, which should go into production by the end of next year or the beginning of 2011, could supply 60% of Ireland's gas needs when fully up and running and the value has been estimated at €3 billion.

At times like this jobs must be nurtured and protected. The Ballinaboy project currently employs 900 people at Erris and will employ 130 people when gas begins to flow from the Ballinaboy terminal. Now is the time, with these economic difficulties, that we should look into the question of royalties from Shell.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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We negotiated——

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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You let it happen. The former Minister, Deputy Fahey did it. He gave them permission.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——a deal at that time. The circumstances have changed——

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Never, to give away a national asset——

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——and now is the time——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Healy Eames, please do not interrupt.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——that we should negotiate additional royalties from Shell in the national interest.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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They gave away a national asset.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please, Senator, I will not ask again.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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On Rockall, I call on the Minister for Foreign Affairs to update the House on the progress of the negotiations between Ireland, the UK, Denmark and Iceland on the status of the continental shelf around Rockall Island. While the State has no formal claim over the island——

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is too late.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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——the allocation of continental shelf rights is very important due to the potential oil reserves in the area. A deadline of May 2009 was set for the most recent round of talks between the four interested countries. An update on the talks would be most useful and I ask that the Minister come into the House to discuss this issue.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point is made.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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With the difficulty we have in the State, both natural resources, gas and particularly oil, if they can be found and brought ashore, will be vital to the future of this country. In the circumstances we must intensify our research in this regard.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I want to support the view put forward by Senator Frances Fitzgerald that we should have an all-day debate in this House on the banking sector. We must look at the macro question as regards how dubious practices prevailed such as the artificial cooking of books as well as the transfer and withdrawal of moneys overnight. We have to look at the regulatory and auditing procedures that surrounded that. We must look at the quality of the ministerial briefings and find out what was said. At a macro level we need a full-day debate to tease out these issues.

At a more basic micro level, we need a day to debate the fact the banking sector in this country has not yet responded properly to the Government guarantee scheme. The banks never passed on the ECB interest rate reduction to consumers in a blanket fashion across the board, and that is wrong. Arbitrary charges are being applied willy-nilly and without advance notice to accounts. The banks are not giving credit to small businesses on a regular basis.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We can have all that in the debate, if the Leader agrees to it.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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In a recent "Prime Time" programme the big developers, notably Mr. Wallace etc., were happy to admit they were not even paying interest, and yet consumers are being harassed on a daily basis.

I am appealing to the Leader to set aside a day for such a debate. If it has to be a Friday, that is grand. We need to discuss banking forensically for the day and let the people's concerns be raised in this House and conveyed to the Minister responsible. It is very serious. The people expect it from us. They are being treated very badly by the banks. It is wrong that they are treating contemptuously the taxpayers of Ireland who are investing in them.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I want to put on the record how embarrassed and sad I am at the exposure the Irish financial system is getting at the moment worldwide. This is a young State of less than 90 years. We were colonised for 800 years and all of us working together have served to raised the standard of living for everyone on the island from that of a colonised Third World country.

I read in the Financial Times at the weekend that the United States has put a levy on the Halliburton corporation of about $170 million because it broke American laws introduced in 1997, forbidding companies from bribing people in other countries when trying to get contracts. The US brought in legislation that year to stop its corporations bribing Third World countries as regards contracts. Halliburton bribed senior public servants in Nigeria to the tune of about $180 million.

What we have learned from this debacle in the last few months is that there are many people in Ireland who would be in jail if we had the equivalent of this American legislation. I find it most disappointing that we have not dealt with that and brought in legislation accordingly. The average man and woman in the street tries to do his or her best every day. When one reads about the shenanigans in Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Life & Permanent, I just ask myself what is happening to our country.

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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We have talked today about fury and rage. The fury and rage I have been hearing about in recent days concerns those who are out on bail and committing crimes. There have been some very serious incidences of this and it jolted me to discover how prevalent it is. I gather there were eight instances last year of murders committed by people out on bail. In total there were some 28,000 crimes committed by people out on bail last year according to statistics. Significant concerns have arisen as a result but I am not sure how they can be addressed. I do not believe we need to amend the Constitution further because we have previously passed measures in this area. We have the legislation on which to act but we do not appear to be protecting our citizens from people who commit additional crimes after being charged and released on bail. Regardless of what we say about the freedom of the individual and innocence until proven guilty, we have to do something because the fury that is erupting in regard to banking will be little compared with the response to the safety of individuals.

The murder rate is quite high and the figures for other crimes are also horrific. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform claims that the figures have not been reviewed because the statistics do not extend far enough into the past to do so. That is not believable. I gather that the increase has been huge in the past four years alone.

Tomorrow, the European Commission is expected to severely criticise the six countries which are in breach of the Stability and Growth Pact, namely, France, Ireland, Greece, Spain, Latvia and Romania. We are supposed to limit our deficits to less than 3% of GDP. While all six countries have gone above 3%, Ireland is running the highest deficit, at 11%. We are facing a serious charge and, in light of Senator O'Toole's warning that social cohesion is in danger of falling apart, all sides need to come together to solve amicably the major challenge that is facing us.

3:00 pm

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on ensuring people's co-operation with Oireachtas committees. I agree with Senators Fitzgerald and O'Toole regarding the anger that has erupted. Over the weekend, I found that most people were discussing the "Six One News" interview with the chief executive officer of Bank of Ireland, during which he spoke about his salary. They were asking what planet that man was living on that he could speak about the outrageous salary he was earning at a time when people were on their knees and their hearts were breaking from their worries about the future.

On 2 July 2008, senior representatives from every bank, including Anglo Irish Bank, appeared before the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service. They outlined a fairly benign view of the Irish banking sector but we all know now that the picture they painted was utterly false and we were taken in by them. The ex-chairman of Anglo Irish Bank, Mr. FitzPatrick, and the external auditors for the bank have declined a request to appear before the Committee on Economic Regulatory Affairs. If this Parliament is to retain any credibility, we must ensure these people are brought before us to answer to the elected representatives of the public. I understand the reason for Senator O'Toole's words of caution but if this matter is managed properly, it could work very well.

It was reported over the weekend that two senior counsels in one of the tribunals were each overpaid €1 million by mistake. The word on the street is they will not be required legally to return the money.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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Why not?

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I put it to the House that a moral issue arises. On moral grounds, they should be made to return the money.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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I join other Senators in expressing my concern about the continued lack of transparency in Anglo Irish Bank. We heard at the weekend that it offered loans to ten individuals to enable them to buy shares and, in effect, prop up the bank at non-recourse terms. In cyberspace, people are asking whether Members of these Houses have outstanding loans with the bank. The problem is that the revelations are affecting people's belief in the banking system and are clearly having international repercussions. Moody's, the rating agency, has reduced its rating for Ireland as a result of which the cost to the Irish Government of borrowing money is now 2% greater than that for Germany. This is having a real effect and is a clear example, if one were needed, of why we need an investigation into matters at Anglo Irish Bank.

I wish to raise with the Leader the effect of the proposed closure, with the loss of 1,200 jobs, of SR Technics on north County Dublin, Louth and Meath. I accept this is a complex matter and that the Tánaiste will be involved in negotiations with the union concerned. However, perhaps the Leader will pass on the following message, namely, if any jobs at that plant are to be maintained we must first ensure the licence to operate, EASA 145, is retained and second, we must ensure no equipment leaves these shores for other destinations. The test cells must be retained.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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I ask that the Leader impress upon the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment how important it is that she makes the statement — there has been no statement to date from the Minister in regard to the closure of SR Technics — that these must be retained in the next 30 days while the negotiations continue with the parent company.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I have accepted that matter for discussion on the Adjournment this evening.

Photo of Ivor CallelyIvor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I join with my colleagues, in particular those on this side of the House, who have expressed concern in regard to the position in which we find ourselves in terms of our financial institutions. As I said last week on the Order of Business, my understanding is that the Minister for Finance, with his Government colleagues, is determined to ensure we have a strong, vibrant, operating financial services sector in Ireland. While there has been wrongdoing——

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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They were asleep at the watch for a long time.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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No interruptions, please.

Photo of Ivor CallelyIvor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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——it is important we put these matters in perspective. Also, many people working in the banks and financial institutions are committed and dedicated people who have given their lives to these institutions and it is not fair to tar them with the same brush as those who, let it be said, have been found wanting in terms of their operations and some of their manoeuvres in respect of their financial accounts. There may be more of them. However, the spotlight is on these people. I am satisfied the Minister for Finance is determined to ensure we have a strong and vibrant financial sector.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I am not satisfied.

Photo of Ivor CallelyIvor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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It is important this House sends out that clear message. Like other speakers, I spoke to many people during the weekend and experienced the genuine depth of concern in regard to what is happening. We are all concerned about the issues raised here today and want to see a resolution and to close this chapter and move on. I join with others in calling for a debate in that regard.

Perhaps the Leader can assist me in regard to a matter brought to my attention in respect of the home energy grants scheme. As Members will be aware it was recently announced that people requiring such grants must now register with Sustainable Energy Ireland, SEI. This has caused a serious problem for people who had arranged for contractors to carry out work under this scheme. This recent announcement has put everything on hold.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Ivor CallelyIvor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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It has brought to a standstill an already difficult environment, in particular in respect of contractors. I ask that homeowners who register with SEI and who qualify for the grant have such grant backdated to the date of registration as this would allow the scheme to commence sooner rather than later. I ask that the Leader raise this issue with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, in an effort to find a resolution to allow this scheme to commence.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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When speaking in Galway at the weekend, Archbishop Desmond Tutu urged us not to let the economic crisis become a human crisis. They are timely words. Based on the anger and absolute rage I sensed as late as last night, unless there is political accountability and unless justice is seen to be done, we will have complete social unrest. The main reason for this is that white-collar crime is seen as untouchable, with the likes of Seán FitzPatrick not responding to being called as a witness and huge severance pay being agreed for people who have been seen to be negligent in their duty, such as the regulator and Rody Molloy. Innocent people ask what this is about.

Meanwhile, children with special needs, some of whom cannot even speak, are losing their special needs teachers. I wish to second the amendment of Senator Fitzgerald on this issue. It is an outrage.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I have the following questions for the Leader. How will the Government show it upholds justice for the decent people of Ireland? Will the Government compel and subpoena witnesses to come before the committees? Will the Government ensure these people — the bankers and speculators — are brought before the courts and, if necessary, that they are carried out in handcuffs? This is what the Irish people are calling for, not so that heads may roll but so that justice is seen to be done.

The innocent people of Ireland are paying for these sins. They are literally being taken to the cleaners in this economic crisis. Ultimately, how will the Government ensure that white collar crime is punished appropriately? This is the question I would like the Leader to address. Otherwise, we are risking anarchy.

I live in Oranmore. I compliment gardaí on their bravery on Sunday night when they apprehended the robbers in Lackagh, Turloughmore, and saved the lives of the Flynn family, including three young children under seven years of age. It is not fair that children would have such an experience at such a young age. This is positive news.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point is made.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Finally, I beg the Cathaoirleach's indulgence——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Many Senators will lose out at this stage.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I compliment the Western Development Commission on its report yesterday that creativity can create jobs. To face this economic crisis and move forward, we must grasp every job creation opportunity. Some 2,000 jobs can be created but——-

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We must have questions for the Leader.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The question for the Leader is this: where is the money for product development? This is what people who have recently been laid off are asking me. The Government has promised innovation and the smart economy. Where is the promised money?

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point is made. I call Senator Hanafin.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We should ask the Tánaiste to the House for a debate on the issue of product development and innovation.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I support the Senators who spoke in connection with regulation and legislation concerning the banking situation. I agree with Senator Callely when he said there are many thousands in the banking sector who have done nothing wrong. However, it is a question of dealing with white collar crime, which is not victimless and can affect families, people and nations very seriously.

When a person's savings are wiped out by virtue of the fact he or she has invested in a bank, which would have been seen as a prudent investment, or when the State's credibility is called into question by certain actions, we must ask ourselves whether we would be better off with the system that operates in the United States. There is no doubt that had this happened in the United States, people would be taken away in handcuffs. I do not wish that any person would be in handcuffs but I believe that had they the fear——

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Why not?

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I will explain.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We are on the Order of Business. There should be questions to the Leader.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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They are probably friends of Fianna Fáil.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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There should be no interruptions.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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Sometimes the interruptions are incredible. They are so naive and partisan that they really are not worthy of this Chamber.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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By God——-

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer, please, there should be no interruptions. The door is not locked if anyone wishes to go outside and talk.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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They really are not worthy of this Chamber.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Government is not worthy of governing.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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To finish the point, were deterrents in place, it might prevent people from ever taking a particular action. I take no pleasure in seeing people in handcuffs at any time. That said, we must do what is correct. We must find out exactly what happened to the money that was given to purchase shares in the bank as a non-recourse loan. We must establish whether it was a non-recourse loan after the event, in other words, once the share price went down if they were suddenly classified as non-recourse loans. That is something which we must investigate.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister know?

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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However, we had better face the reality that there is a difficulty in compelling witnesses. There is a classic case, namely, in re Haughey, in which the courts ruled that Mr. Jock Haughey could not be compelled. We must investigate and debate the matter further.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I have a suggestion to make, which I would like the Cathaoirleach and the leaders of the groups to take on board. Every day the Order of Business is taken up almost entirely with financial matters and there are continuous interruptions. This is a very hot debate and there are spats between the Chair and individual Members. Last week the House was suspended on a number of occasions and that time was not allowed for. Innocent Members of the House were caught in friendly fire. I suggest that, as we did in the case of the Iraq war, we should have a rolling debate on the economy. Why not have one hour every day dedicated to the matter? We may not take it all.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is quite close to that now.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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That is not my fault.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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The Cathaoirleach could get away from it if he restrained himself a little also and showed some flexibility. This is the time that serious issues are raised. Let us deal with that situation and leave one hour aside because we are discussing it every day while other issues that are of considerable importance to the people are neglected.

I suggest also we should examine the role of the Seanad. We are precluded from having anything serious to do with finance and the economy. We are spancelled and neutered and we are not allowed or trusted to consider these matters. Let us consider the collection — I nearly used a word for which I would be ruled out of order — of people who we put in charge of the finances of the country while we as elected Members of the Oireachtas are not allowed to deal with them.

Senator Quinn raised the question of people out on bail committing serious and heinous offences. One of the reasons for this is that the jails are stuffed, partly with women. These are housewives who have not paid their television licences. When I put down an amendment to get rid of this nonsense it was ruled out of order on the grounds that it might create a charge on the Exchequer. That makes a farce of this House. We should be dealing with it. We should reprimand such people as that fellow from Goodbody Stockbrokers who had the unmitigated gall to call for cutbacks in social welfare. That is what I call the FitzPatrick effect — shamelessness. Mr. FitzPatrick called for removal of the medical card from elderly people while he was fiddling the books, cooking the books of one of the largest banks in the country.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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How dare they? I am fed up listening to corrupt bankers, hedge fund managers, hurlers on the ditch and short sellers of stock pontificating. These are people who never created a single job in their entire bloody lives. Even I created jobs through two companies I managed and I never took a penny out of them. Many others have done likewise. Look at the number of jobs created by Senator Feargal Quinn. Why not let us have a real say in it? Let us talk sense. It is nonsense to suggest those people should be dragged into the committee. It is exactly as Senator Joe O'Toole stated, if I was Mr. Seán FitzPatrick I would be in there unburdening myself. It would be like confession, where one can receive absolution, but one cannot be charged.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The point is made.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Get the buggers into court. That is where we need them.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Bring in the fraud squad.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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There is a temptation for politicians and everyone to concentrate on self-interest and pander to anger or the populist approach to advance sectional or self-interest, but that does nothing to address the seriousness of the problem we face. Only yesterday, the economic adviser to the President of the United States of America stated that the recession in the USA is deepening and that he does not see an improvement on the horizon. Unfortunately, much of the comment here, whether from anger, ignorance or whatever, ignores the global nature of the problem and the difficult and serious challenges we face to survive it. In that regard, we must be much more measured in the way we approach the matter. Some days we manage to do so in the House. I compliment the many speakers last week who did it. We have not made a great start today. One example would be the provision of 128 classes for those with special needs. It is a long-standing regulation that when classes fall below a certain level, they are dispensed with and people go into the mainstream. To ameliorate that, a concession was made to set the number at nine. I do not know whether that is the right number at which to apply the criteria but I do not doubt that the State cannot afford to have special classes for one, two or three pupils. We need to be straight with people but that is not happening.

The only bit of hope I felt was on hearing David Begg last night on "Questions & Answers". He was head and shoulders above anyone else. Anybody watching the programme would know from what he said and by his body language that he appreciated the extent of the problems we face, the difficulties we are in and the measured focus we need to find a road through them. I hope that people like him, who feel like that, will be part of the process of finding a solution for the country so that we can look back in a few years' time and say that we got through the huge, unprecedented difficulties we had.

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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On 20 January we debated the Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Bill 2009. When we look back at the information the Minister provided during that debate in the Seanad, we can see how dangerous it is to rush legislation and provide no adequate time or opportunity for this or the Lower House to vet legislation. Three times in his responses, the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Martin Mansergh, stated authoritatively that there was no run on Anglo Irish Bank. We know something now that we did not know then, although the Government knew it, that €7.5 billion had been transferred from Irish Life & Permanent to Anglo Irish Bank and was misrepresented in the accounts as customer or corporate deposits. This represents 20% of the deposits of that bank. In other words, the deposits at the bank were 20% higher than would otherwise have been the case.

This is an important issue when it comes to taking decisions on the recapitalisation and nationalisation of the bank. There was a run on the deposits and a further deterioration up to December and into January. The Minister of State misled this House, whether intentionally or unintentionally. To base our decisions on that type of inadequate and misleading information is very bad for the quality of the legislation we pass in the Oireachtas. The Government knew the true situation of the bank. The Minister of State did not disclose the true situation when we were making our decisions and holding that debate. I would like the Leader to comment on that.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator Fitzgerald's call for a debate on the quality of regulation of our financial services industry. I have some figures to illustrate why this debate is so urgently needed. The financial markets price Government debt and decide how much somebody buying that debt should be willing to pay for it. Israel has a spread of 213 points. That will affect the interest rate charged for someone buying Israeli Government debt. Ireland has a spread of 378 points. The financial market believes that it is 77% more risky to buy Irish Government debt than it is to buy Israeli Government debt. These figures bring home to us the nature of the challenge faced by our country. To deal with this, I would like to make two constructive suggestions to the Leader.

The first suggestion is that all the regulatory authorities and banks in our country should be reconstituted and reformed immediately, because we need this kind of decisive action to deal with the issue that we are facing. The second suggestion is to ask about the Government's plan to restore the reputation of our country abroad with the people making these decisions. I appreciate and understand the willingness of the Government's representatives to meet the owners of Dell to try to rescue jobs, but we need a similar programme to ensure the people who buy our debt and decide how much it will cost us to do business in future have a better understanding of what is being done here to deal with what is becoming a crisis.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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Like Senator Walsh, I was very impressed by David Begg on "Questions & Answers" last night. Sitting in the studio, I was particularly impressed by how much the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, appeared to agree with David Begg. The strength of what he had to say lay in the fact that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions has put forward a ten-point economic plan for economic recovery that is impressive in the breadth and range of issues which it addresses, but also impressive in the absence of any equivalent coherent plan from the Government. It is long past time that the Government put forward a coherent plan, and I hope that last night's agreement and apparent courtship between David Begg and the Minister of State may give rise to some sort of national solidarity pact on the way forward. Everybody in the country is crying out for an economic strategy that will lead us towards recovery.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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The Senator represented the Seanad pretty well herself.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The time is nearly up. Has the Senator got a question for the Leader?

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I echo calls from other Senators for a debate on banking. I stated that the country is crying out for a national recovery plan, but it is also crying out for accountability from the top bankers. There have been calls across both sides of this House for better regulation, but we have a regulation system and recent legislation to deal with all this. For example, we created the Office of Director of Corporate Enforcement in 2001, the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority in 2003, and the Market Abuse Regulations in 2005. As a criminal lawyer, I can say that there are criminal offences in the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 which are applicable to the sort of things we are seeing at the top levels of the banks today. The problem is not with the lack of legislation, but with the lack of enforcement, with a culture where non-compliance was tolerated for far too long, and where the Garda fraud squad has been afraid to investigate because it has not been given any sense that this would be a good thing to do. We need to have a debate on the enforcement of existing laws, so that we see a situation like that which occurred in America, where bankers in Enron were indicted on charges of conspiracy, a basic charge known to our criminal law.

When is the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill likely to come to the House? I have been asked by many people for whom this is a matter of great concern, and it would be useful for us to know that.

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Almost every speaker has raised the issue of the banking crisis, and the need to have a discussion on it. Senator Norris made a good suggestion to allow a rolling debate for an hour every day after the Order of Business, so that people could raise issues of concern in the broader economy and especially in banking. I agree with Senator Donohoe, as there needs to be a complete reconstruction of the boards of the banks in this country because we need to restore confidence. There is an absolute lack of trust, at home and abroad, in the senior management of our banks in this country. That cannot be changed unless we change the people who run our banks.

Senator Callely and others spoke about the many good officials who work in banks throughout the country. I know many of them and that they are honest, decent, hard working people. However, their work has been undermined by the few who have been caught with their hands in the till. I join other Senators in asking that the full rigours of the law be brought to bear. We have been talking about the investigation by the Office of Corporate Enforcement into dodgy dealings in our banks, but we should be talking about the Garda fraud squad, because this is fraud as far as I am concerned. We should ask that arm of the Garda to get directly involved in those investigations.

I join Senator Fitzgerald and others in calling for a debate on education. When the Minister for Education and Science was last in this House, he disingenuously failed to refer to the cutbacks he was about to announce later that evening. We should have a debate on the matter.

The last point I want to make relates to tolling. I am sure other Senators have received complaints from people in their local areas since the introduction of barrier-free tolling on what used to be called the West Link motorway. I was recently presented with a case that might lighten the mood of the House slightly at this time of doom and gloom. A couple of weeks ago, a constituent of mine received a bill in the post on foot of an alleged non-payment of a toll. It was all well and good until I discovered that the vehicle in question was a tractor. My constituent was supposed to have crossed the West Link bridge on his tractor without paying a toll. Some of the serious problems that arose when barrier-free tolling was introduced on the M50 have not yet been hammered out and they should be examined as a matter of urgency.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Like other Senators, I would welcome a daily rolling debate on the economy. Such a debate would be important at this time. We are all anxious to hear the ultimate plan that will lead the world out of this recession and these difficult times. If one could identify such a plan and bottle it, one could sell it at a price that would be many times the national debt of Ireland and every other country in Europe. I was very impressed with the comments made on "Prime Time" recently by an Irishman, Mr. Dan O'Brien, who works for the Economist Intelligence Unit in Geneva. I ask the House to indulge me slightly as I repeat what he said when he made the best analogy I have yet heard to describe the current situation. He said that we are at point A, which is in an earthquake zone. We need to keep one eye on the sky in case slates fall and take our heads off. We need to keep our other eye on the floor to ensure our footing is correct and we do not fall over. We are trying to get to point B, but nobody in the world has been able to ascertain where that point is. Therefore, baby steps and a little bit of everything are needed. Everybody in the world is taking that approach. The Government, including the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, is doing the same thing. I thank the Lord for that. Recapitalisation, in a small way, was necessary. The nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank was necessary at that time. The bank guarantee scheme was necessary. Cutbacks have been necessary and more cutbacks will be essential. No economist, David McWilliams or anyone else, can predict what the absolute panacea for these difficulties will be. A level of agility is necessary. We need to be able to improvise quickly and move determinedly to solve these problems as they arise.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Job creation is necessary

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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In these times, having seen such recklessness in certain aspects of the financial services industry, we are all anxious to get our pound of flesh and see justice done. However, we have moved on from medieval terms. It is not possible to set up a guillotine in St. Stephen's Green to behead those we perceive to be guilty. As the criminal lawyers in the House know, people are entitled to due process.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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We want justice.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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When the rigours of the law are put to work and people are found guilty of criminality, I look forward to seeing them behind bars. In advance of that, a witch-hunt in this House, based on our personal opinions, cannot be justified in any way.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Alex White, O'Reilly, Mary White, Quinn, Feeney, Hannigan, Callely, Healy Eames, Hanafin, Norris, Walsh, Regan, Donohoe, Bacik, John Paul Phelan and MacSharry called for another debate on the banking dilemma. Since this House came back after Christmas, it has had a debate on the economy every week. I inform Senators that legislation to provide for the levies will be brought before the House next week, possibly late on the evening of Wednesday, 25 February. We expect a very late sitting, perhaps into the early hours of Thursday morning. The Bill will be considered on the Wednesday night as long as it has been passed by the Dáil at that stage. The Minister will be present. All the issues of concern to my colleagues in this House can be discussed on that evening. As I said to the Leaders of the various groups before today's Order of Business, I will have no difficulty with allocating the amount of time that is requested and required to discuss the serious proposal that will be before the House. I understand that the legislation will have to become law by 1 March next.

We all want to see stronger regulation. We have all learned from the experience we have gained from the debacle in our financial institutions. We looked up to the institutions in recent years when they were enormously successful. As I said in the House last week, it may be time to adopt the example of best practice that has been shown by our friends in the United States. The US imposes a much stronger system of regulation in this area. I am sure the Minister will introduce legislation, including corrective measures in both Houses over the next few weeks. I welcome the uplifting news that the two banks which were given €3.5 million each last week are now offering a one-year fixed rate of 2.45% to first-time house buyers. I understand that this measure will give 10,000 couples an opportunity to buy a house at a fixed rate, in the first year, of 2.45%. Those of us who were in business in the 1970s and 1980s will remember a time when one had to pay a bridging rate of 3% in respect of a rate of 19% or 19.5%. It is a wonderful time. House prices are very low. I can tell the House, on the basis of my experience and that of people in my constituency to whom I have spoken, that house prices have decreased by 40% in the midlands. First-time house buyers can now borrow money at a rate of 2.45%.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Young people cannot buy houses if they have no jobs.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Without mentioning their names, I commend the banks that are offering that rate. Ireland is in a much stronger position than many other countries throughout the world. One cannot get away from the facts of the matter.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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The Leader should face the facts.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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We should seek to assist and strengthen those who have been giving and creating employment. While Members of the House want to give opinions, they should also acknowledge the facts of the matter.

Senator Fitzgerald and others called for a debate on education. We had such a debate recently. I have no difficulty with allowing time for the Minister to come back into the House to update Senators. I welcome the Minister's announcement last week that 43 new major school building projects are to go to tender, with construction to take place this year. The new schools, extensions and refurbished schools in question will provide 19,600 places to students. Some 5,600 students at post-primary level will get permanent school accommodation in eight new schools. A further 4,275 students in seven post-primary schools will benefit from major extensions and refurbishment projects.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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What about services for children with special needs?

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister said that a record €656 million will be invested in school building projects this year.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Nobody raised the projects in question on the Order of Business.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome these facts.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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If the Leader wants facts, he should read the newspaper article about the professor of economics in UCD.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole——

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Leader should confine himself to matters that were raised on the Order of Business.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader, without interruption.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I think it is against the custom of the House for anybody to read a newspaper in the House.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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No, it is not.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it is.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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It is not. It is perfectly in order to quote from a newspaper in the House as long as it is relevant, which is more than the Leader's contribution has been.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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That has never been the case.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Can we have a ruling on that, a Chathaoirligh?

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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It has never been the case, a Chathaoirligh.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is that newspapers should not be displayed in the House.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole, whom I really respect, expressed strong views on best practice in the area of industrial relations. I admire the good work he has done in his time as a Senator and in his previous walk of life, and what he has done for the social partners. I will certainly pass his views in this regard to the Minister.

Like Senators Leyden and Healy Eames, I would like, on behalf of the House, to congratulate the Garda Commissioner and the gardaí from Oranmore Garda station on the great and heroic work they have done in recent days. I refer in particular to the two young gardaí who risked their lives to protect the Flynn family. The local parish priest spoke on television last night about the Trojan work that has been done by his community. The Garda Síochána is to be highly commended. I want to put that on the record of the House. I thank the Senators who brought this matter to my attention.

Senator Leyden called for the Minister to ensure we get proper remuneration in respect of gas finds off our shores and other possible energy-related finds. He also asked for the up-to-date position on Rockall Island. I will come back to the Senator in due course in that regard.

Senator Quinn highlighted the terrible case of people on bail committing crimes. He referred in particular to eight murders committed by people on bail. That is unacceptable. If it is the case that we must revisit legislation as a matter of urgency, we should do that immediately. I agree with the Senator's expressions on the issue. The Senator also mentioned the Stability and Growth Pact and I will pass on his strong views to the Minister.

Senator Feeney expressed strong views and the hope that those who are asked to appear before committees of the Houses will give the matter consideration. I understand that where legal advice is given to a possible witness invited to appear before a committee, that legal advice must be considered. As Senator MacSharry stated, due process must be taken into account in all of these areas. It is a serious state of affairs in respect of those in the banking world who are being asked to appear before committees and everything must be taken into account, including legal advice.

Senator Feeney also referred to the two senior counsel who were paid an extra €1 million for their services in the tribunals. It is a matter for the two senior counsel but if an error has been made in good faith by a civil servant, we will wait and see what happens in regard to that incident.

I will pass on to the Minister, Senator Hannigan's views regarding the licences being retained in SR Technics. I agree with the sentiments expressed.

Senator Callely referred to the energy grant available from SEI, those who intended to do work, new applicants and so on. I will pass on the Senator's views to the Minister and try to get a response to the points he made.

Senator Healy Eames raised the issue of the Western Development Commission and making money available for projects, particularly in the BMW region. I reside in Westmeath and Senators Glynn and McFadden would know about that also. We want to see as much as possible coming to the BMW region. I agree with the Senator in that regard.

Senator Norris raised issues pertaining to the Order of Business which come before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I suggest the Senator discusses that with his leader because that is where we take the views of the various groups in the House. We may be able to progress the proposal and determine how we can make it relevant to the Senator's proposal which he outlined to the House earlier.

Senator Bacik asked when it was proposed to take the immigration Bill. I will come back to the Senator on that.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank the Leader.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I understand it will not be taken in this session. I will confirm that and get back to the Senator later in the week.

Senator John Paul Phelan called for a debate on tolling and asked about the up-to-date position. A large amount of legislation is due to come before the House in this session. I have no objection to having a debate on that issue but if it can be taken in Private Members' time it would be of major assistance in having it prioritised on behalf of the Senator.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Fitzgerald has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "To ask the Minister for Education and Science to account to this House, as he did not when he was here last week, for his policy on special needs in this country and the cutback of €5 million in special needs education." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 20 (Ivana Bacik, Paul Bradford, Paddy Burke, Jerry Buttimer, Paudie Coffey, Paul Coghlan, Maurice Cummins, Paschal Donohoe, Frances Fitzgerald, Dominic Hannigan, Fidelma Healy Eames, Michael McCarthy, Rónán Mullen, David Norris, Joe O'Reilly, John Paul Phelan, Feargal Quinn, Eugene Regan, Brendan Ryan, Alex White)

Against the motion: 24 (Dan Boyle, Martin Brady, Larry Butler, Peter Callanan, Ivor Callely, John Carty, Donie Cassidy, Maria Corrigan, Mark Daly, John Ellis, Geraldine Feeney, Camillus Glynn, John Gerard Hanafin, Cecilia Keaveney, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Brian Ó Domhnaill, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Francis O'Brien, Fiona O'Malley, Ned O'Sullivan, Jim Walsh, Mary White, Diarmuid Wilson)

Tellers: Tá, Senators Maurice Cummins and Fidelma Healy Eames; Níl, Senators Camillus Glynn and Diarmuid Wilson.

Amendment declared lost

Order of Business put and declared carried.