Seanad debates
Wednesday, 4 February 2009
Order of Business
10:30 am
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Industrial Development Bill 2008 — Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2008 — Second Stage (resumed), to be taken at the conclusion of No. 1 but not earlier than 3 p.m.; and No. 25, motion 31 re human rights, to be taken at 5 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7 p.m.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday I spoke about the need for fairness and equity in any decisions taken by the Government to address the current economic difficulties. I regret that the measures announced yesterday were neither fair nor equitable. In a radio interview this morning, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, certainly could be said to have refused to apologise for the Government's role in the current difficulties through its mishandling of the economy. It is a feature of the current debate that there has been no apology from the Government for its role in creating the economic crisis.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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There are undoubtedly international factors at play but to deny that the poor decision making of recent years, including the reliance on property taxes, the inflationary budgets and the appalling waste, have played a part, and to refuse to apologise for this, is outrageous given that ordinary workers are being asked to put their hands in their pockets and give over their hard earned money. This is particularly so in the case of those on lower incomes. Where is the equity in that? The lack of acknowledgement by the Government of its poor decision making does not go down well with the public. Some recognition by the Administration of the mistakes it has made, which have resulted in ordinary workers bailing out bankers and property developers, is in order.
In the United States, a strict regime is being introduced for the regulation of the banking sector. There will be no room for excesses. For example, no bonuses may be awarded until taxpayers' money is repaid. Irish taxpayers must be similarly reassured that strict regulation will accompany any further capitalisation of the banks. It would have been reassuring for the public to have been informed yesterday of the Government's overall plan instead of only certain aspects of it.
The Government will undoubtedly argue that the reduction in the child care allowance announced yesterday is minimal. Will the Leader accommodate a debate on this issue? Perhaps he will come back to the House on this. We asked for a debate on child care. I hope it is not indicative of the Government's priorities that it intends to reduce investment in children, childcare and families. Those are not areas to be cut back in a recession. We already have a very poor infrastructure in this county and poor support for families. Priority cutbacks should not be made in this area.
New employment figures are coming out today. I ask the Leader to arrange for a Minister to come into the House, as soon as possible, to outline the Government's plans in respect of job training and job creation. The House needs a detailed debate on these matters and on supporting business.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I have just put down the telephone from a couple who were in tears, a nurse married to a teacher, comfortably off, with their own house and paying back their mortgage. They outlined to me what their position will be after yesterday. His mother is in a nursing home and he has only one other sibling with whom he shares those costs after his mother's pension is included. The couple used to get a 40% pension break on what they were paying for the nursing home fees but that has been reduced to 20%. When all reductions are put together, they will be more than €1,000 per month worse off. They asked me if I thought this was fair. The woman is a nurse and deals with consultants on a daily basis. The consultant she dealt with this morning earns €200,000 to €300,000 per year. She does not begrudge this to him but he has been asked to pay 2% extra by way of the levy. She has been asked to pay the levy, the pension levy and additional costs for the nursing home, amounting to more than €1000 per month. There is something wrong in that system. It is grossly unfair and unacceptable.
We have seen one side of this. I said yesterday, and will say again, that if the Government must take unpopular decisions then it must do so. If it must demand of the public sector that those people punch above their weight then it must do that. My telephone was ringing all last night and this morning. What I cannot explain to people is where fairness comes into the equation. Will someone explain to me why a person who earns more than €100,000 per year, whether in the public or the private sector, cannot be asked to pay a fair share through taxation?
I conceded yesterday that as future public service pensioners it is only right that we should be asked to pay more. I do not begrudge that. I spent four years in the Commission on Public Service Pensions and I never denied that point, nor will I do so now. However, there is a gross lack of fairness and a number of issues must be examined. The point I made yesterday has been made by many people on these benches for the past two months. We are now scraping money from ordinary people to pay off bankers and developers who are still in situ——
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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——with their big multi-million pay deals, who pay no price at all. This will not hold. It will bring social and industrial unrest. It cannot hold at the centre unless we bring balance to it. One cannot explain to public servants why they must do what is being asked of them if there is not a balance somewhere else. I am being told also of employers in profitable industries who are using this opportunity not to give pay rises. Why is that allowed? I hear that employers are sacking people they do not like on the basis that they must let people go.
This action will not hold together without balance. There must be recognition that people who are earning good money, whether in the public or the private sector, must pay their share. Senators, including Senator Cummins, clearly made this point yesterday, using the example of the Waterford Crystal pensioners. There must be mortgage protection and an absolute certainty that people will get a better mortgage tax deduction. Nobody should lose his or her house because he or she cannot pay the mortgage after these new changes. An absolute commitment must be given to pensioners in the private sector, where pension trustees have dipped into their funds to do the wrong thing, that the Government will take up the slack. This is about fairness and equity. Until we deal with some of these issues people will not accept what is being asked of them by the Government. Unfairness, inequity and lack of balance must be adjusted.
We should discuss this matter today. I said this yesterday but the Leader did not allow it. He is leaving the issue until tomorrow because he hopes the sting will go out of it. It will not. Our Order of Business is now irrelevant to what is being discussed on radio, in pubs, lounges, schools and hospitals everywhere. We are here, talking in a world of our own, completely disconnected and not engaged with what is happening in the world.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is time we got our act together and stopped whingeing about not getting coverage in the media or elsewhere. As long as we continue to talk on our own planet, when the world is somewhere else, we will never get coverage.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I ask the Leader to reassess the Order of Business today and to deal with the issues everybody else is discussing.
I also ask the Leader to convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs the need to meet with the Irish Ambassador to the Vatican, who has very little to do most of the time, and request that he speak to the Head of State in the Vatican to clarify for us——
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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——that state's view on the rehabilitation of Bishop Williamson and to discover its view on that bishop's denial of the Holocaust. I was one of those who gave the benefit of the doubt to the Pope on the question of his being a member of the Hitler Youth or similar group, on the grounds that it was unfair to make judgments on what he did as a young man. However, I am really horrified at this latest development.
Phil Prendergast (Labour)
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I wish to highlight the circumstances surrounding the proposed closure by the Health Service Executive of St. Brigid's elderly care ward in St. Patrick's Hospital in Waterford. The reason given for the closure, as reported by the media, is to address health and safety concerns in the ward which is situated upstairs in the hospital. However, these health and safety risks have been already identified and dealt with in the ward in the past year. The number of beds has been decreased to make the area ergonomically safe. Public moneys of €50,000 were put into that unit in 2008 and €300,000 was paid out for it in the period from 2005-07, of which €100,000 was national lottery money. This was announced and approved by the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, on a visit to the hospital. That money was invested in the ward over this period in conjunction with the Health and Safety Authority, the HSE and the Friends of St. Patrick's Hospital, allowing all the required standards to be met.
The fundraising body for St. Patrick's Hospital contacted me. It questioned the HSE on its decision to close beds for the most vulnerable in society at a time when all statistics show the rise in our older population demographics and the demand for elderly care. Fundraising to support so many projects in St. Patrick's Hospital has been made possible only because of the support of the people of Waterford and south Kilkenny. These people are flattened at the moment by all the incidental events in the area, at Waterford Crystal, Bausch & Lomb and other places. Contributions, to date, of €500,000 have transformed the hospital. The care given is of the highest standard in the country. Staff have taken great pride in the fact that word of the hospital's excellence and its developments have been quoted nationally by Professor Drumm and by the Minister, Deputy Harney, following their visits and meetings with patients. These visits came about following nationally led projects for the elderly put in place by the skilled and dedicated staff of St. Patrick's who had a vision to improve the care of their elderly patients. They were aided by the facilities and enhanced services at the hospital.
It is amazing to see the relationship between the staff and the patients. The Friends of St. Patrick's Hospital is a registered charity and has always worked well with the HSE, under guidance and trust, to support buildings and extensions, dayroom and therapeutic areas within the hospital. All the goals have been met with regard to enhancing——-
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not want a speech. This should be a question to the Leader.
Phil Prendergast (Labour)
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Future financial planning for our health service should take into account the need for service provision for older patients, not only for those now in the beds but for those who will need it in the future. Why is the HSE closing a ward in which so much public money has been invested? Where will the frail and elderly dependants in Waterford and surrounding regions go now?
St. Patrick's has addressed the health and safety standards and decreased by seven the number of beds in its upstairs ward. Now the community of Waterford is being asked to lose another 19 beds for elderly patients. We must ask what is the reasoning behind this decision. All the hazards have been eliminated and the health and safety risks have been met. All the staff, not only the nurses, have done their health and safety education and lifting techniques. They have ticked every box with regard to providing the best service they can for these people. This is one more cut and I believe it will be a cut too far.
I ask that the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House and be accountable. I further point out that any relevant parliamentary questions which are addressed to any Department are being reassigned to the HSE for answer. That agency is not answering and is not accountable.
Yesterday I raised the policy decisions on midwifery services where there was an implication that one needs a certain number of deliveries to provide safe delivery of care. That casts aspersions on community midwives, professional midwives, doctors in the community and ambulance personnel who have to deliver babies en route to hospitals. This is wrong and must be addressed.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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Tomorrow this House will have an opportunity to speak on yesterday's announcements in the other House. It is the first in a series of difficult and unpopular decisions by the Government and there will be more such decisions. Each of those decisions, as they are made, will provoke a response from the Opposition that it is the wrong decision. That is the nature of government. This year our anticipated tax take will be €37 billion, €20 billion of which goes on public sector pay. The options on controlling public expenditure are to employ fewer people in the public sector, pay people in the public sector less or, the mechanism which was chosen, to try to account for the economic cost of the pensions provided for people in the public sector. None of those options is simple or easy.
This House needs to debate the constant cheap jibe being thrown that people are being dealt with in isolation. A series of decisions is being made that will impact on all in our society but most on those who have achieved most in the Celtic tiger years and who have been seen to contribute most to the damage to our economy.
Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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In this House we will debate the bank recapitalisation, how the political system will feel the pain the people are feeling, the added numbers who are unemployed and the changes in the public sector. If the Opposition is serious about dealing with the economic crisis, it is time to come up with common solutions and stop making cheap jibes.
Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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I fully support Senator Prendergast's concerns about the closure of St. Brigid's ward at St. Patrick's Hospital in Waterford. This is being closed for the dubious reason that it does not reach the high standards required by HIQA. I call the HSE's bluff today. I call on HIQA to go into St. Brigid's ward in St. Patrick's Hospital and investigate all allegations made by the HSE. Let the truth be told and let us have transparency around this decision. This ward is the home of 19 highly dependent, elderly people. I have spoken to some of their families and they are seriously concerned about this move. For more than ten years we have been promised a 50-bed unit for the elderly in Waterford and the entire region. We welcome the support we have had from public representatives in south Tipperary, south Kilkenny, Wexford and Waterford fighting this case to keep St. Brigid's ward open. However the HSE shrugged its shoulders and said the decision has been made. As a public representative I say that is unacceptable.
I ask that the Minister come into this House to explain this decision. She can no longer say it is the responsibility of the HSE. She can no longer wash her hands, like Pontius Pilate, and say it is a decision by others. This affects people and their lives in the most detrimental way and I call on the Minister to explain those actions. I call on HIQA, which has high standards and which we welcome, to investigate this claim by the HSE that this ward does not reach the standards. If this ward is closed, umpteen wards, hospitals and nursing homes in this country should be also closed. We cannot use these standards as a dubious claim to make the closure. It is a cost-cutting measure done in the most ridiculous way that affects the elderly, those who are most vulnerable.
I add my voice to that of Senator Cummins, who yesterday raised the real concerns of the Waterford Crystal workers regarding their redundancy and pension rights and entitlements. More than eight months ago I asked for a debate in this House on Waterford Crystal and the trouble it was in. Had that debate been granted we could have analysed in a proper, timely fashion the implications on all workers not just in Waterford Crystal but in manufacturing generally. That debate was not granted. We did not want to examine the crisis in the manufacturing industry. We wait for factories to close down before we react and respond, and that is not good enough.
Senator O'Toole is correct. We are not responsive enough in this House and Parliament. We need to react to the daily issues that occur and that is the closure of manufacturing industries around this country. In Waterford we have Waterford Crystal, Honeywell, Hasbro and Bausch & Lomb, all iconic names and international, high-value trading companies, that are closing and going on short time. What are we doing here? We are sitting down talking about other issues. We need to wake up, smell the coffee, get real and get out there and represent the people we were elected to represent.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Boyle in his calls and in welcoming tomorrow's debate. I am very conscious of the fact that the Government took the correct decision yesterday. I am also conscious of very recent history when, while claiming to be responsible in opposition, the Opposition has voted against vital measures including the bank and credit institution guarantee scheme and the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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Had there been a different result at the last general election, those who voted against these measures in opposition would not have accepted them in government. I must take this on good faith, otherwise it would be a very cynical exercise. That would have undoubtedly resulted in a collapse in one of our banks and we would be in the same situation as Iceland. Instead of dealing with our problems ourselves we would have the IMF here. The IMF is very straightforward. It would tell us to cut pensions by 20% and public service employment by 30%. If we say we cannot do that, the IMF would say we will not get the money. It would be very straightforward. The IMF would tell us taxes must increase to 58%, and would then leave via the airport saying, "Good luck. No hard feelings." Or, would the Opposition have acted responsibly in Government? That is its question to answer.
11:00 am
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I echo the point about the need for a debate on the Government's cuts as soon as possible. I agree with the sentiments expressed by others on how much it must stick in the craw of ordinary folk who find themselves hard hit in recent times and who seem to be taking the pain while others who are more responsible for the problems we face appear to be getting off scott free. We all agree it was time for the public sector to play its part in a particular way and nobody quibbles with the essence of yesterday's decision by the Government. However I would like there to be a debate as soon as possible on our overseas aid budget. It is scandalous that €95 million is being slashed from the overseas aid budget. It is no argument to say we are still on target to meet 0.7% of our GDP by 2012. We are seeing a selfishness in times of hardship to match the waste we saw during times of plenty. The poorest of the poor, the most vulnerable people in the world, put some of our needs in the shade. How much better an expression of our national character it would be in this time of national crisis if we were to say we will not touch overseas aid by one iota. By all means we could examine how we spend some of it, for example the UNFPA getting €5 million is scandalous.
David Norris (Independent)
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Scandalous stuff, well done, congratulations.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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The principle of supporting the most vulnerable in the world should not have been attacked in the way it was yesterday.
I compliment Senator Norris on last week bringing up the issue of the "Bodies" exhibition. I will raise this as an Adjournment Matter. I wonder why no serious questions have been asked about the provenance of these bodies and why an exhibition essentially about entertainment seems not to have been required to pass the scrutiny of anybody in authority in this country. Was the Irish Museum Association informed? Has it any brief in this area? Is anybody in Government taking an interest in this matter? We cannot ignore these matters.
While complimenting Senator O'Toole on quoting William Butler Yeats I was reminded of another quote from Yeats:
The clever man who cries
The catch-cries of the clown
When I heard Senator O'Toole, whom I respect greatly, give evidence that he does not know very much——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should ask a question of the Leader, not give quotes.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is not appropriate that people should call on the Irish ambassador to the Holy See to make known views when people raising these matters clearly know very little about what has gone on. This has nothing to do with Holocaust denial and everything to do——
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is disappointing to hear people who are expert in other areas proceed blithely to deliver themselves of their opinions without, apparently, knowing the essence of the story.
David Norris (Independent)
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Cardinal Kasper certainly seemed pretty anxious about it, and he ought to know. He is a German and he is a cardinal.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator without interruption, and questions to the Leader, please.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Those who believe in the separation of church and state should surely wonder at the leader of the German Republic's——
David Norris (Independent)
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Why do we have an ambassador at all?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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——presuming to tell one of her countrymen what he should be doing or saying on behalf of the church. However, this is not the place or the forum to explain to the ignorant what has gone on here. I would encourage the ignorant to inform themselves before they deliver themselves irresponsibly of certain comments.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Methinks the Senator protests too much.
David Norris (Independent)
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How very Christian of you, Monsignor.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the debate we are to have tomorrow on the cutbacks. I listened attentively to what Senator O'Toole had to say about the fairness or unfairness of some of them. I have had many phone calls from ex-colleagues in the teaching profession who explained how they would be affected. We all have to face these cutbacks. I am concerned about jobs and that is why I say to my colleagues that they have jobs and they must try to work it out somehow at this point. I do not like having to tell them that and I do not like having to hear what is going on in the world. Nevertheless, we must face up to the reality. I welcome the debate tomorrow, at which we will discuss and tease out the fairness or unfairness of the cutbacks.
I do not like the cut in overseas development aid either. I visited many countries, including many African countries, and saw the impact of our aid and how it was reaching out to the poorest in the world. Nevertheless, we must ask our embassies to consider how we can do more with less money to help those who are most needy.
I would welcome a debate on the updating of FÁS and the courses it is to introduce to achieve the necessary upskilling of the workforce. I would like the Minister to come to the House and give us an update. There are still courses in FÁS which are not relevant today, and I hope they will have been cancelled and new courses put in their place. I welcome a debate on this, and therefore I ask the Leader to ask the Minister to come to the House and give us an update so that we can thrash out the issue at length.
Like Senator Coffey, I am worried about the situation in Waterford, and I hope we will have a hasty decision on the future of Waterford Crystal. It is the history of the company with which I am concerned. It goes back a long way. I want every effort to be made.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The phone is ringing. It is the Minister.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I would like the Minister to come in and give us an update and listen to the suggestions that have been put forward today as to how we can help those involved, particularly the pensioners and others who are being deprived. I welcome the decision of the Waterford Crystal workers to hold out on this issue.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Health Service Executive is rolling out its service plans throughout the country at present. This is really Hanly by the back door. That is what they are introducing.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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In a city the size of Waterford, we only have 72 long-stay beds for the elderly. This covers south Kilkenny and part of south Tipperary. There is a proposal, as has been stated, to take 19 beds and close St. Brigid's ward in St. Patrick's Hospital, which is ludicrous. There are proposals for a 50-bed unit to be built on the site. This has been a priority for the past ten years, and the HSE is telling us now it will have it built by next year, but it still does not know where the site is. It is ridiculous. The HSE is saying the closure is for health and safety reasons, but it is really a cost-cutting exercise. There is no question about it. In addition to the 19 beds in St. Patrick's Hospital, 20 are going in St. Otteran's Hospital in Waterford and 30 in Waterford Regional Hospital. Thus, the cuts are not confined to the geriatric hospital in St. Patrick's. Senators on the Government side should look at the service plans the HSE is introducing in each of their constituencies. The measures are even more draconian than those proposed in the Hanly report.
We on this side of the House are getting fed up listening to lectures about what we should be doing and how responsible we should be to help the economy. We have made concrete proposals, not only over the past 12 months but over the past seven years, that have not been listened to and have been scoffed at by the other side of the House.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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We are not prepared to accept lectures on responsibility at this time. What is being shown on the other side is far from responsibility. Even yesterday the Taoiseach refused to brief the leader of the Opposition on what was going on. That side is now looking for co-operation. It is an absolute disgrace. People should know the Government is doing things its own way, as it has done for the past ten years or so, and has brought the country to its knees.
Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I must disagree with my learned colleague, Senator Cummins. Today and yesterday have been very important days. There is a key message we need to send out from the House, and I would like it to be a united message. The Government has a great determination to stabilise our public finances, to keep people at work and to improve the skills of those who have lost their jobs. I ask Senator Cummins and others to consider the seriousness of the situation and the clear determination of those in authority to help us through this difficult time.
I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to ensure adequate supports are in place for people who have lost their jobs, especially in the form of services such as the money advice and budgeting service, MABS, whose work is of great value. The mortgage interest supplement is under pressure. The number of people claiming mortgage interest allowance in December 2008 was nearly double the number claiming in December 2006. This is putting huge pressure on people in terms of the funds required. We are talking about the difference between keeping and losing one's home. Because of that, I ask the Leader to raise with the Minister the need to ensure adequate funds are in place for people in this risk category.
Alan Kelly (Labour)
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It was novel to see the leader of a country such as the United States apologise in his first month in office for a mistake he made. It is a lesson that our current Government could learn quickly, which would be great for all of us. It should certainly be apologising. I agree with the sentiments of colleagues who said it should apologise for the way it has stumbled in this crisis. Its actions have not demonstrated any confidence or ideas as to how we can get out of it.
I was amused to hear Senator Boyle, in particular, and then Senator Hanafin explaining that we need to put on a united front. It is laughable. The ideas and strategies of the Government for the recovery of the economy have shown it in a very bad light. The Labour Party was the first party to issue such a strategy. The Government has not had one single good idea at any stage in the past six months. We have a Minister who has stumbled from one crisis to another and a Government that has got its figures wrong on six different occasions.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is questions to the Leader. I have at least 12 Senators who wish to speak.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is questions for the Leader. If he agrees to arrange that debate, you can make those statements.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to obey the rules of the Chair and to put questions to the Leader.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader will reply to questions. I ask the Senator to do that. I do not want any smart remarks.
Alan Kelly (Labour)
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There were no smart remarks. All I am looking for is fair treatment.
Alan Kelly (Labour)
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With regard to the package of cuts in the public service announced yesterday, how can one justify low and middle income public servants having to pay up to €2,000 in tax? It is a tax and we should call it that. We might as well get used to it. Members should not be so vain as to call it a contribution to pensions; it is a form of tax. Some of the low income earners will be paying a contribution to a pension from which they will not benefit. Their income is so low in the first place that, from a contribution point of view, they will not gain. Is that equitable? I say it is not.
I agree with Senator O'Toole who said previously that some businesses who have declared serious profits in the past are using this situation in an exploitative manner, to get rid of workers that do not fit their bill. That is unacceptable. Furthermore, when dealing with the banking situation, why did the Government not impose conditions in the bail out regarding the salaries of senior executives?
Alan Kelly (Labour)
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It has been done in America, so why could it not be done here? That is something on which all Members of the House would agree. It would have been a commonsense approach and would have bought the public's good will.
In conclusion, I agree with much of what Senator Coffey and Senator Prendergast said about the HSE. I visited St. Patrick's recently. As I have said previously, I agreed with the Health Information and Quality Authority's investigations, particularly into cases such as Rebecca O'Malley's. However, there is a question about the HIQA's overall role, the extent of that role, how it interacts with the HSE and how the HSE is using the HIQA in many cases to justify what many consider to be service cuts to save money. This must be addressed in cases such as St. Patrick's and the acute hospitals plans that have been announced in recent months.
The consultants' contracts were renewed recently. The HSE announced that the €80,000 due to consultants will be paid in forthcoming weeks. Was that under consideration, particularly in the case of non-exclusive public consultants, by the Government in the recent past when it was examining ways to save money?
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Like most Members of the House and people in the public service, I do not welcome a reduction in pay. However, most people, including many of the people interviewed in the media, recognise the seriousness of the situation and the fact that something must be done. This action might well preserve the very generous pensions we enjoy in the public service. Somebody who is earning €50,000 in the private sector would require a fund of approximately €1 million to buy a pension of €25,000 under the annuity schemes. What we have is extremely valuable and we must be seen to be paying our part.
I fully subscribe to the comments made by Mr. Jack O'Connor on the "Prime Time" television programme last night. It is indefensible if people on modest salaries in the public service are paying this levy and hospital consultants are not. I believe hospital consultants' fees should be revisited and renegotiated. They are not sustainable at the current level. The salary is €250,000 when a comparable position in the UK commands a salary of approximately £170,000. We should consider a serious adjustment in the fee. It definitely must be revisited because it must be seen to be fair.
I previously raised the issue of the legal fees extracted from this economy by barristers, particularly in the tribunals. I am aware of young people who have gone from college to work in the tribunals, doing what is effectively administrative work and who are millionaires after two or three years. That is unacceptable and must be tackled. It is not the 8% proposed by the Government which should be considered but a very significant reduction in the fees. The fees are €2,250 per day. The Government sought to reduce them to €969 but, following representations from one, if not two, of the chairmen of the tribunals, the fees were left at the current level. That must not continue. I am prepared to put my name to a motion, hopefully an all-party motion, calling on the Government to introduce a maximum fees order for the legal profession which will not be greater than the €969 per day, which was proposed. If other Members are of the same mind, they should contact me. I am prepared to put such a motion before the House. We should support such a motion. There must be equity and fairness.
Finally, Members might have seen the television programme last night which dealt with an issue of which we must be aware, that is, a trend towards or indications of protectionism in the major economies. We have seen it in Britain where protectionism is sought in segments of the labour market. There is a more serious situation in the United States, where the rescue package of the new administration is being hijacked in an effort to protect the steel industry there. If that happens, there will be huge adverse global effects and, with its open economy, Ireland will be exposed to them. I compliment Mr. John Bruton, who participated in the programme last night. He was excellent. He appeared before the Seanad previously. I believe we should invite experts on these issues to address the House in order that we can have a good, informed debate on matters of such significance.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the praise from the Fianna Fáil benches of a former Fine Gael Taoiseach. It is obvious that the Senators on the Government benches consider that attack is the best form of defence. As they read from their prepared scripts today, they are attacking the Opposition——
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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There are no prepared scripts. We are consulting notes.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Regan without interruption. He did not interrupt anybody else.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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They are attacking and criticising the Opposition. That criticism is rather cheap. In both Houses we have supported the Government and taken it on trust with regard to the State guarantee. We knew decisions had to be made. At the time we suggested that recapitalisation of the banks would have to be addressed. That was rubbished by the Government, yet ultimately it realised that it had to be done. The Opposition opposes not for its own sake; it opposes bad policies, that is, policies that are ill conceived, ill thought out and do not represent a balanced and fair way of trying to resolve the country's problems. The Government cannot have it both ways. It cannot deny information to the House and bypass the Houses of the Oireachtas when developing economic policy and still suggest the Opposition is not being constructive. The Leader should address that issue in his response.
The issue of fairness has been raised with regard to the measures that were belatedly adopted by the Taoiseach yesterday. The fact is the Taoiseach failed in his objective. He worked to get an agreement with the social partners and stood by that process as the way out of the current economic morass. He failed in that endeavour. He put a brave face on it in the Dáil and cobbled together a programme that is supposed to deliver savings of €2 billion this year. We will see if he delivers on that.
There is, however, the issue of fairness. I can understand that many civil servants feel aggrieved that they are being targeted when one contrasts that with the way this Government has dealt with the banks, executives and officials in the banks and the issue of pay in the banks. When the issue of loans in Anglo Irish Bank was raised last December, the Minister for Finance said it was disappointing. There are still executive directors, one of whom was responsible for group risk analysis, on the board of that bank. A risk officer was moved aside after raising questions about the procedures in the bank. Nothing has been done about this. Consider what would happen in any other organisation where there were such goings-on in terms of the approval and transfer of loans. Who approved and signed off on them? Who dealt with that documentation? All of those people would pay a price in any other financial institution in the world. It is that example that needs to be given by the Government both domestically and to the international market. I ask the Leader to address those two points.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to make the following points. The first is that I have no notes or prepared script, although I notice the Senator always has that beleagured stance as he prepares his notes when he is making his contributions.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator MacSharry, without interruption.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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In any event, I welcome the decisive action by the Government yesterday. I share the frustration and anger of many people within the public service that this had to be done. However, I am afraid circumstances and realities have intervened to make that essential.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It is bad leadership from the Government.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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It is a question, as the Senator rightly said, of providing leadership. Politics is not about popularity, it is about leadership. When the good times rolled and there were lots of resources and very high tax takes, things were possible which are no longer possible.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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There should be no interruptions. I will adjourn the House if this continues.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Extremely difficult decisions have had to be taken and more will have to follow — there is no question about that. This is just the first. It will mean more pain for almost everybody in society. I consider myself to be exceptionally lucky because I am in the public service, one of 350,000 people with a defined benefit pension. Some 80% of the workforce do not have that benefit and, I would say, would give their right arms for the security of a job at this time——
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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——which they do not have and are not likely to have for a while to come.
I look forward to participating in the debate tomorrow. It is incumbent on all of us to ensure that the burden is spread as widely and as fairly as it can be. I fear, however, there is no absolute way to make that equitable and fair to the point that it will not raise the anger and frustrations of many of us, including some in this room. We must be frank about that.
An all-party agreement on the way forward is an absolute impossibility in these times. The function of the Opposition, as Deputy Enda Kenny said in the other House on the last occasion, is to provide opposition. There is a majority on this side of the House for the moment, so we do not require a Tallaght strategy. However, it is worth noting that for the 1987 budget there was no Tallaght strategy. This is the budget widely acclaimed to have turned the tide at that time and it was a minority Government that put it through. The Tallaght strategy did not exist until the following September.
The Opposition should oppose as it must. Any constructive points will be taken by this side of the House, as this side of the House determines——
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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——but the Opposition should not think we are begging for help. I believe the leadership in the Government has what it takes to take the appropriate actions, painful as that may be. Politics is about providing leadership in these difficult times and taking the difficult decisions. We are not concerned with electoral success at these times——
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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——nor can anybody be. We must take the decisions that are necessary to secure the future for our children and grandchildren.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I echo the calls by Senator O'Toole and others for a debate today on the Government's economic package. I take issue with those on the other side of the House who suggest we are not being constructive. We need to take issue constructively with the elements of the package that has been proposed by the Government. We have heard the mantra from Senator Boyle, the Minister, Deputy Harney, and others on this morning's radio that it is unpopular and therefore it is right. Just because something is unpopular does not mean it is right.
We all accept the need for the public service to pay its share and to make sacrifices at this difficult time. However, what seems profoundly unfair, and the reason some elements of this package are profoundly unpopular, is the profoundly inequitable way in which this is being done. To insist that the lowest paid in the public service, the nurses and teachers we have been hearing about, would bear such a disproportionate burden of the pension levy is most unfair. Those of us in the public service who earn more should be asked to pay more.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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We had this debate last year when the Government proposed a 1% levy, which they were to impose equally on all up to a certain level, and it had to revise that. It saw it was profoundly inequitable to charge the same percentage levy on the lowest paid. It must do the same U-turn on the pension levy. It would be most unfair to charge people on €15,000 and €20,000 a 3% levy to pay for pensions. We need to revise this.
There is real concern among public sector workers that they are being scapegoated while they have done nothing wrong and done nothing to contribute to the dreadful state of the economy. They have not seen bankers' pay being cut. President Obama has proposed a cap on bankers' pay in the US and we need to debate a cap on bankers' earnings here in Ireland also.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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That would make it appear more equitable and would make it easier to bear the pain of these unpopular measures. We need to engage constructively and we need to do so today.
I also ask that the Leader would take on board the wording I proposed to him last week of a cross-party motion from this House calling on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to grant Pamela Izevbekhai and her daughters leave to stay here on humanitarian grounds. I e-mailed the motion to the Leader and some other Senators who had expressed support. I believe there is cross-party support. The motion I have drafted refers to "notwithstanding any legal proceedings" and it simply asks the Minister to grant the family leave to stay here on humanitarian grounds. I ask the Leader to take up that and put it to the House tomorrow.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I welcome Senator Mullen's expression of support for the separation of church and State. I am delighted to hear it.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It has always been there. It is to prevent tyranny from people like Senator Bacik.
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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Many of us have long called for a true separation of church and State in Ireland, particularly in the education and health care systems, and I am delighted to hear Senator Mullen support that.
I take objection to the way he lectures anyone——
Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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——who dares to criticise the Pope's decision or the Vatican State's decision on Bishop Richard Williamson, who clearly denied the Holocaust on Swedish television, which is appalling. Chancellor Angela Merkel is correct to make a diplomatic issue of this with the Vatican State.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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We all agree it was appalling. That was not the point.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Many Senators still wish to speak. Unfortunately, two Senators who indicated yesterday did not get an opportunity and I will take them now. I call Senator McFadden to be followed by Senator Donohoe.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I want to raise the issue of the 350,000 public servants who are €3,000 worse off today than they were yesterday. People have contacted me who are very concerned about how they will pay their bills. These are people who are keeping money in circulation through spending, which is what we need to do in the economy. These people are terrified as to how they will make ends meet.
I resent Senator Boyle's criticism of the Opposition when he speaks about the nature of government being to govern and to lead. I have not seen any leadership or governing from this sad, tired Government. I resent the lecturing. I believe the last election was bought by the Taoiseach of the time, Deputy Bertie Ahern, by saying——
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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It was won by the present Taoiseach.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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No, he bought the election by saying that if people did not vote for Fianna Fáil, the economy would suffer. That is how that election was bought. Look at what has happened to our country. I resent the patronising way the Government side is speaking to us. Only yesterday, our leader, Senator Fitzgerald——
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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What about the way the Senator is speaking to us?
David Norris (Independent)
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Senator McFadden never interrupts anybody else.
Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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——spoke about supporting good decisions and good leadership from the Government, as has our party leader, Deputy Enda Kenny. Deputy Richard Bruton has been giving suggestions to the Government for at least a year and has not been heeded. I resent that entirely.
Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator McFadden. We will not take lectures on responsibility on this side of the House. Where was responsibility on the other side of the House when the Government went out and destroyed our tax system? The price for this is now being paid. It presided over the banking system but did not want to make any decisions about it and, again, we are seeing the consequences.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We can discuss that tomorrow in the debate.
Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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I have three questions to put to the Leader on this matter. First, this is just the beginning. The Government has said it needs to find €2 billion worth of savings this year, €4 billion next year and €4 billion the following year. Will the Leader provide an explicit guarantee to the House that social welfare payments and pensions will not be cut? This is the beginning.
When will we see action to deal with the fact that this country is the most expensive in the European Union in which to do business and in which to live? At a time when incomes and confidence are falling, can we not see some action from the Government?
Joe O'ReillyPaschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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I concur with some remarks made by Senator O'Toole. I believe there is a small but growing risk of social unrest in the country. People see such unfairness in the way decisions are made. W.B. Yeats has been quoted twice in the House in the past two days and I wish to add another more ominous quote: "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold." We face that risk. One word, "sorry", would dilute and deal with that risk. The people deserve to hear that word from the Government.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Boyle, Hanafin, Mullen, Ormonde, Callely, Kelly, Walsh, Regan, MacSharry, Bacik, McFadden and Donohoe expressed their views regarding the announcement yesterday by the Taoiseach of plans for the correction of the State's finances. As the House is aware, all day tomorrow will be made available to discuss the matter. I wish to discuss arrangements with the leaders of the groups following the Order of Business this morning to determine the length of time we propose to allow for spokespersons, leaders, Senators and Whips to make their views known to the House in the presence of the Minister. Many opinions were expressed this morning and tomorrow will be an eventful day in the House, because good suggestions should always be taken on board. I support the suggestion from Senator Frances Fitzgerald regarding the new banking regulations being introduced in the USA. We should take the lead here and follow suit. There is enough expertise in the House to give a view on the matter tomorrow when the Minister is present. I ask those with expertise to let the Minister know their views regarding that very worthwhile proposal.
We could get involved in argy bargy and try to score political points, but the state of the nation and future generations depend on the decisions made by legislators at this time. I will not indulge or waste the time of the House this morning in responding to the allegations made. I will only say the people have spoken on three occasions in succession and have placed their confidence in the Government. I was pleased to see the determination of the Government yesterday in the fightback. It was only the beginning of the necessary corrective measures from Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann in the coming months and years.
I thank all Senators for their co-operation and support to date in this session. As I explained yesterday, a debate on the economy has taken place in the House every week for the past three weeks, and the debate tomorrow will make this week no exception. It is no pleasure to have to discuss the economy every week the House sits. Be that as it may, that is the duty, responsibility and privilege which the people have placed in the House. We are here to assist the Government, Departments and the people to deal with the necessary corrective measures.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We are not being allowed to do so.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I call on all Senators to make their contribution tomorrow in the interests of those whom they represent, namely, the people. I look forward to a lengthy, all-day debate on this very important issue.
I refer to the matter of job creation. I will allocate time in the coming weeks to hold a lengthy debate in the presence of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to discuss job creation.
I refer to matters raised by Senators O'Toole, Mullen and Bacik. I will pass on their views to the Minister for Foreign Affairs regarding the Vatican, the Holy See and his holiness the Pope. I must not let the occasion pass without mentioning that Senator Mullen and I attended a very joyous celebration in Mullingar last Sunday. It was the silver jubilee of the Bishop of Meath, the Rev. Michael Smith. It was one of the great days in one's life and we were honoured to be present and to represent the Parliament in Christ the King Cathedral, Mullingar.
Senators Prendergast, Coffey, Cummins, Kelly and Walsh expressed their concerns regarding the issues in St. Bridget's ward in St. Patrick's Hospital, Waterford. I will ask the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House, to hold a debate and to provide an update on the Health Service Executive as a matter of urgency.
Senators Coffey and Ormonde expressed concern and support for Waterford Crystal as a global brand name of which Ireland has been so proud for generations. It has been a great employer in that part of the country. I wish everyone well in their deliberations in the coming days and we can review progress on the issue tomorrow. The House supports the people in Waterford and Waterford Crystal. It is to be hoped it will be able to continue and to promote the product and the marvellous brand name.
Senator Mullen expressed his opinion on the bodies exhibition in O'Connell Street. I understand it has been very well attended. I will pass on his views to the Minister on this matter.
Senator Ann Ormonde called for a debate on FÁS and job creation. I have already given a commitment that this will take place at the earliest opportunity.
Senator Callely expressed his views on mortgage allowances and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs and I will certainly pass the Senator's views on to the Minister. I will examine the motion proposed today by Senator Bacik and revert on the matter tomorrow.