Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is motion re proposed Council framework decision on combating terrorism, referral to committee, without debate; motion re Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Act 1996, referred from committee, without debate; motion re Council decision on strengthening of Eurojust, referred from committee, without debate; motion re Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children, without debate; Cluster Munitions and Anti-Personnel Mines Bill 2008 — Second Stage, spokespersons may speak for 12 minutes, all other Senators for seven minutes and Senators may share time by agreement of the House.

Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Today there are some pertinent questions on the minds of people as they heard in recent weeks and at the weekend about the spending of taxpayers' money on excessive and luxury items such as in regard to FÁS. The question that is on people's lips is how many other State agencies are in the same position and what was the Government's role in all of that?

We see those items being referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts, but where was the Government oversight on FÁS with its budget of €1 billion per year, €10 billion in the past ten years? That raises serious questions about the competence of Government to oversee the many agencies under its control. It is disquieting because what we are seeing, essentially, is frontline services being cut back and the scrapping of the cervical cancer vaccine programme. Six women's lives could have been saved with just travel expenses alone that have been spent by FÁS. It is not necessarily about focusing on one man; this is about accountability from State agencies and the role of Government and Ministers in managing those agencies. It seems they have taken their eye off the ball regarding accountability, transparency and the management of these organisations. We are being told the cutbacks are necessary, yet we see this amount of waste. This is why Fine Gael has focused so much on the issue of reform and obtaining value for money. This is as pertinent today as it ever has been given the exposure in recent days of excessive spending. Will the Leader invite the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the House to debate this topic? I propose an amendment to the Order of Business in order that we can have a real debate in the House on the topic of the day and on the economy.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I am very happy to support Senator Fitzgerald's proposal. My colleague, Senator Shane Ross, has done excellent work on the issue.

In the past three or four weeks, I have asked constantly for a debate on the economy. The House will have to vote on this from now on. The Leader promised three or four weeks ago that there would be no problem with having such a debate and that we should have one regularly. I also called for a debate on education, including the aspects of education touched on by the budget. Other issues require to be debated, including the equality structures of the State and how the measures in this regard are implemented. These issues need to be addressed. The Leader committed to doing so and I ask him to deliver in this regard.

Since I became a Member, every Government has produced legislation in reaction to some major news item of the day. A Fine Gael Government introduced legislation to criminalise people who allow their horses to wander and Fianna Fáil introduced legislation to criminalise people who take out in public certain breeds of dogs without a muzzle, all in response to newspaper articles. The closest equivalent we have had recently is the legislation on pistols and pistol shooting. People with handguns in this country must surmount a most intense set of barriers in order to be allowed obtain a pistol licence. They do not shoot animals or birds but at targets and they are reasonable, sensible and secure people. No evidence has ever been presented showing that legally held handguns have ever been used in crimes. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that legally held shotguns have been stolen regularly from their owners and used in crimes. The introduction of the legislation on handguns is simply a reactionary move. It is not fair on those who are involved in a sport that does no harm to anybody, who are absolutely secure, sensible and dependable and who take every single step to ensure they act carefully and in line with the law of the land. They are in constant contact with the security people and the Garda in this regard. I ask the Government to rethink the introduction of the legislation.

Alex White (Labour)
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Are Senator O'Toole and the rest of us wasting our breath asking the Leader to arrange a debate on the economy? We keep doing so but, as a child might say, "It keeps not happening." Is there any point in our seeking it? Will the Leader address this, thus saving ourselves the trouble on the Order of Business of seeking a debate on the economy, about which everybody is talking? I have just come from addressing a group of school students on the south side of the city. They all want to talk about the economy and the recession and what Governments and politicians are doing about it, yet we cannot have a debate thereon in the House. We were supposed to have a rolling debate. What is a rolling debate? In any event, it is what we were promised two or three weeks ago.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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It is rolling yet.

Alex White (Labour)
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It certainly has not started rolling yet. Are we to have such a debate in the House or should we just give up on the idea?

Tomorrow the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance are to announce a programme of significant public sector reform. I welcome this and ask the Leader to arrange a debate on it. I welcome the programme for two reasons, the first of which is that no reasonable person could object to a serious programme of reform in the public sector. The second reason I welcome it is that I hope it will put an end to the phony debate on the public service. Very often, including in this House, people make statements about the public service that are long on rhetoric and short on specifics. This will give us the opportunity and will provide the context for Members on both sides of the House to explain what they mean by public service reform. Public service reform is a fantastic phrase, like motherhood and apple pie. What do people mean by it? Where do they wish to see the cuts and the redundancies? Do they wish to see redundancies?

We might consider any particular service that is provided for the people. In this House, Members are constantly calling for improvements and expansions to services and opposing the abolition of different agencies and services. As politicians, we must face up to the fact that if staff numbers are reduced efficiencies can, of course, be brought about and it is good that such might be done. However, very often, when staff is reduced the service is reduced. It is not as simple as that but that is very often the outcome. Fewer staff means a service that is not as good for the public. Let us face up to that and let us all, on both sides of the House, face up to the fact that it is not good enough to come in here and make rhetorical snipes at the public service and public servants without being specific, by which I mean giving examples.

I welcome another aspect of the announcement that apparently will be made tomorrow, namely, that the Government feels it must take time to see which posts can be amalgamated, which ones should be abolished and, as a consequence, which services must be removed. It will take time. In the event of such a debate, I call on all my colleagues to be specific about what they mean, to be clear and to face up to the fact that if staff numbers are reduced very often service is lost.

Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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I concur with what Senator White said. We need a debate about the public service and about the specifics. I do not necessarily agree with him that more means better. What we must prove is that one can have a better service with fewer numbers. We should be able to get that. Nor do I agree with Senator White that the House has had umpteen calls for an economics debate. There have been umpteen economics debates. Just because Senator White has not been present for them does not mean they do not happen. They have happened time and again.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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We have had none.

Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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Ministers in the Department of Finance——

Alex White (Labour)
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I object to that, on a point of order——

Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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——have been in here time and again.

Alex White (Labour)
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On a point of order——

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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There has never been a debate.

Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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Let us look back at the agenda——

Alex White (Labour)
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On a point of order, there is a convention in this House, as was pointed out to me, in respect of referring to people who are or are not in the House at any particular time. Senator O'Malley is wrong. When there are debates on the economy and on financial matters, I am here, and I have contributed to them.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Alex White (Labour)
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I want that remark to be withdrawn. We have been calling for this debate——

David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear. Senator White is right.

Alex White (Labour)
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——for four weeks and it has not happened.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Alex White (Labour)
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It is most unfortunate that Senator O'Malley has sought to personalise this and in a completely inaccurate manner.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not want anybody to refer to any other person who is not present.

Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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I do not mean to personalise this and I withdraw what I said if it caused offence. Senator White said he has been present and therefore he will know how many Ministers for Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Employment have been in the House to take——

Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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I withdraw the remark if I caused offence.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should come to Cork.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Malley, without interruption.

Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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The point I wished to raise——

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It is a long quest to get in here.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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There should be no interruptions.

Fiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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Today marks the beginning of 16 days of focus on violence against women, which are intended to highlight what happens internationally. An Irish plan was launched today on work towards the elimination of female genital mutilation. A good conference took place this morning on dealing with this issue. It is important that we discuss, particularly in the Houses of the Oireachtas, the issue of domestic violence and I call for a debate on this matter. It is unfortunate that only in times like this, when there are to be 16 days of concentration on violence against women, the question of domestic violence and gender-based violence against women gets a focus. I would not like this period to go without having it marked by a debate in the Seanad on domestic violence in general and all gender-based violence against women.

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I second Senator Fitzgerald's proposal to invite the Minister to the House to discuss the economy. As regards the decision by Dublin City Council to increase rates, the Lord Mayor of Dublin has adopted the Fianna Fáil Party mantra of calling on people to be patriotic when the Republic's VAT rate is being increased by 0.5% while the rate in the North is being decreased by 2.5%. A bottle of whiskey is already €14 cheaper in the North. People are trying to spread their money as far as possible and cannot be blamed for seeking best value and the best return for their money. The Government is failing dramatically to reduce prices and to encourage businesses, especially smaller enterprises. Statistics published in recent days reveal the extent of job losses in the small business sector. I ask the Leader to arrange an urgent debate with the Minister to discuss this serious issue.

I also call on Fianna Fáil led councils not to increase commercial rates. Like the Leader, I am elected to represent the whole country. I ask him to show leadership in this area because he is aware of the importance of the issue.

I concur with Senator O'Malley's comments on the serious issue of violence in the home. One in six Irish women has been abused by a current or former partner. It is shocking that this abuse takes place behind closed doors and that women must suffer in this manner without recourse, especially in rural areas where people find it much more difficult to report this serious crime. I call for an urgent debate on the matter in the House with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. As with other Senators, I have asked without success for a number of Ministers to come before the House. Contrary to what Senator O'Malley's believes, I have been present for debates.

A serious road traffic accident took place on a particularly bad regional road in County Westmeath this morning. I extend my sympathy to the poor, unfortunate family of the lady who lost her life in the incident. The Oireachtas must take a decision to upgrade the road in question, which has been an issue for a long time.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The upgrading of roads is a matter for local authorities.

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I am appealing to the Leader, my County Westmeath colleague, Senator Cassidy.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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On the point raised by Senator Fitzgerald, I have no doubt the issue of expenses in FÁS will be dealt with in a professional and accountable manner and a report will issue in due course, which is exactly what should happen. However it is also important that we do not allow this case to misrepresent or distract from the wonderful work FÁS has done. There is not a part of the county which has not benefited in some manner from its work. Thousands of people would be willing to attest that FÁS training gave them access to lucrative careers. Every time a factory closes the first port of call locally is to request that FÁS fill the gap. The organisation retrains people, helps raise morale and has availed of many opportunities to assist and sustain local amenities.

I have often heard that FÁS staff, from the top of the organisation to the bottom, are pragmatic and that FÁS is less bureaucratic than other bodies. We have, through FÁS, given communities ownership of hundreds of thousands of projects. One can see the organisation's mark wherever one goes in Ireland and we need it more than ever. With significant unemployment coming down the track, retraining and lifting of morale will be necessary. I hope the current debate does not have the effect of demoralising staff at FÁS before all the facts are available.

David Norris (Independent)
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I support Senator Alex White's call for a debate on the economy, which is well overdue. I am not anything of an economist, but even I am concerned when there are reports in the newspapers to the effect that the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, is to approach some banking friends with a view to a dig-out and that these include J. C. Flowers, Carlyle and so on, with their associations to the Bush family, Mr. bin Laden's close relatives and so on. If these people are to come in and do a Tony O'Reilly on it, as he did with Eircom, the Irish taxpayer should be given a shot at it. If they are going to be able to get in and out within five years and make enormous profits, why do we not do it? That would be a useful employment of the pension funds. We should make a profit out of our own industry and kick the banks, if that is needed.

I also believe that we need a debate on the economy. As a simple person, I am astonished at the way matters are being managed. The British Chancellor of the Exchequer is reducing VAT while simultaneously we are putting it up. To add what Margaret Thatcher would have called the triple whammy, Dublin Corporation is shoving 3.5% on to the rates for businesses in central Dublin. That should make a happy Christmas for everybody. I notice there is a secular Christmas tree — there is no sign of a crib — sponsored by the Dublin City Centre Business Association. I doubt if its members will have such a happy Christmas, as might have been envisaged.

I support Senator Labrás Ó Murchú in regard to FÁS. The reports are disturbing and at a time of severe economic retrenchment it is provocative and aggravating to see the apparently exotic lifestyle of some of these people at the top of FÁS. I was not very impressed by the performance of the chief executive, although of course he was in a corner. He seemed to be trying to maintain two contradictory positions at the same time. He said one needed to go first class in order to arrive fresh at meetings. Then he said he did not cost the taxpayer any money because he had downgraded himself, not to economy class but to business class, in order to bring his wife with him at no extra cost to the taxpayer. He may have arrived comforted by the presence of his spouse, but I doubt whether he was as fresh as he might have been had he travelled solo in first class.

Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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She would have kept him up all night.

David Norris (Independent)
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On the other hand, I am among those, as suggested by Senator Ó Murchú, who would pay tribute to FÁS on the basis of my personal experience. Now is the time, when it is under pressure, to stand up for the foot soldiers in FÁS. I have direct personal experience of them and I am not suggesting that anybody here, including my friend, Senator Ross, has impugned them in any sense. He was very scrupulous about not doing that. At the James Joyce centre, some years ago, for example, we had a series of FÁS and community employment schemes. That was during a period of intense unemployment, up to 80% in my area of the city. Some 27 young people from that area, thanks to FÁS, went on to full-time paid employment. At the moment we have a very distinguished Joycean scholar. I am not sure whether I am allowed to name him. Before the Cathaoirleach intervenes I shall just say that his name is Dr. James Quinn.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I would prefer not. I do not think the topic of Joycean scholars is relevant to the Order of Business.

David Norris (Independent)
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He is a real scholar, a PhD, the translator of Fernando Pessoa, a world authority not just on Joyce but on Pessoa, who has made these links between Ireland and Portugal. Thank God we got him and we would not have done so without FÁS. It is absolutely appropriate that excessive lifestyles be examined.

I heard somebody say — there was a chorus of approval — that half of FÁS's budget, equivalent to €500 million, should be knocked off. That seems to be a swingeing cut, particularly as we have abolished the Combat Poverty Agency and mutilated the Equality Authority. Everything that supports people in a recession is being attacked. For God's sake do not destroy the body that is supposed to look after people who are coming out of employment. Reform it and make it efficient, but do not put it out of business.

Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, is on a trade mission this week. I would be interested in a debate on the economy of Ulster. We often call for a Northern debate.

Alex White (Labour)
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The Senator has a great chance of getting that.

Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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Senator McFadden talked about a €14 difference in the price of whiskey. That is one of the keystones of a topic that is very important. We have had debates on alcohol and I have asked for all-Ireland policies on the pricing of alcohol, which is one matter in which there should be a disparity when we as an island have a problem with alcohol abuse which needs to be addressed. An all-Ireland approach to issues such as the pricing of alcohol is very important.

There have always been exchanges in terms of people from one side of the Border going to the other. However, I draw attention to the changes in VAT and exchange rates. I ask that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, look at the Border areas. If one is far enough away from the Border there is no impact but in an area such as where I live, where Border towns are closer than larger towns in the county, many businesses have been put under pressure and we should find ways of stimulating the economy in these areas.

There was an issue with the water quality of bottled water recently. The food authority did not release its report and therefore all businesses involved in bottling water were tarred with the potential brush of having contaminated water. One company disclosed that it had a very good record with the quality of its water. Why would someone who has evidence of contamination not give that information to consumers in the interests of other businesses that are doing things by the book?

This is linked to the issue of obesity levels. I again ask that we fast-track the issue of labelling, not only of food products, which are improving in content, but also liquids. The amount of information on calorie, salt and sugar content in alcohol and soft drinks products is very limited. We need to look at that in the context of the obesity study released today.

Regarding FÁS, as previous speakers said, the budget in place for what FÁS does best, training those who need to be retrained, must remain the single focus. Investigations need to be done but the money needs to go where it is best spent, and it is being well spent on very good training programmes. We will need more and more training in the future, particularly in the coming months and we should not be distracted by what might or might not be proven as a result of reports. The focus must remain on retraining.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator O'Toole's statement on hand guns. It is not clear what the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is proposing. He has intimated some restrictions on legally held hand guns and it would be useful if he came into the House and explained precisely what he proposes to do in this area. The use of hand guns and pistol shooting is a big sport in this country. It is a distraction and is intended as such by the Minister to focus on the issue of legal hand guns rather than illegal hand guns and the lack of control in confronting gangland crime.

On the issue of value for money in Government expenditure, there are lines in the budget of every Department on value for money reviews. It was formerly known as the expenditure review initiative. At various times as Minister for Finance and as Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen emphasised the issue of value for money. In a seminal speech I alluded to last week he said that we must have full acceptance of the need to ensure every euro is well spent. However, when dealing with the head of FÁS, Mr. Roddy Molloy, who is from Birr in Offaly and is personally known to the Taoiseach, we tear up the rule book and suggest everything is all right, and the Taoiseach says we do not go there. As is evident from his interview, Mr. Molloy is out of touch when it comes to value for money and use of Government funds.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not name people who are not here to defend themselves.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach, in his unequivocal support, is also out of touch. On the subject of friends of Fianna Fáil and the Taoiseach, when we introduced the emergency legislation to deal with the bank crisis, it was emphatically stated by the Minister for Finance and the Government that the issue of the recapitalisation of banks did not arise. Then it was subject to analysis and it was suggested that when we made a deep dive into the banks, we would know more. Then, when friends came with a scheme, facilitated by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, it was all urgent, emergency, secret meetings and rumours in the media, with no clear indication to this House or the other as to what is going on.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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This pertains to a request for the Minister to come to the House for a debate on the economy. Why is this matter so urgent and why is there a particular focus on the Bank of Ireland currently? Is Deputy Bertie Ahern getting a finder's fee for facilitating the introduction of the private equity firms to the Minister for Finance with regard to the recapitalisation of the banks? That is a question for the Leader.

Eoghan Harris (Independent)
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At the risk of the Seanad becoming the equivalent of a type of afternoon television confessional programme where everybody whinges about everything all the time, now and again, we should lift our eyes up and say something positive. This kind of demented obsession with Bertie Ahern and money just lets down the person going on with that kind of stuff.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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He looked after Senator Harris well.

Eoghan Harris (Independent)
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I stood up to congratulate Deputy Enda Kenny, but diverted because I thought Senator Regan's coat-trailing was a bit much.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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It is a legitimate question.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Senator Harris took the hand-out.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Allow the Senator speak without interruption.

Eoghan Harris (Independent)
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I wish to celebrate two bits of good news this week. First, I congratulate the leader of Fine Gael, Deputy Enda Kenny, on showing great courage in calling for a suspension of the current national agreement, which we cannot afford. Second, I welcome the Government decision to set up what has been wrongly called "an bord snip". It should be called "an bord snas". I do not believe in root and branch and slash and burn reform of the public sector. We need a bord snas, a polished public service, a lean, mean fighting machine in the great tradition of our public service of the 1930s and 1940s.

Many here will remember the great short story by Sean O'Faolain, The Fur Coat. In the story, set in the 1930s, the wife of the Fianna Fáil Minister — it could have been a Fine Gael Minister; it is difficult to tell in the story — wanted a fur coat for the cold winter and now her husband was a Minister he had the money for it. She went to Grafton Street for the coat, but came back without it because when she thought of the hard times and what people had to do for Ireland and of those who died for Ireland, she could not take the fur coat.

We need this old, frugal, wooden boots revolutionary kind of austerity back in our public service at every level, political and otherwise. I concur with Senator Ó Murchú in his call to be careful when doing the slash and burn. Senator Ross rightly revealed the bad or down side of public service. Senator Ó Murchú has rightly revealed the good side of the public service. It is difficult to know how to distinguish between those who deliver a day's work and those who do not, but that is what I hope the new task force will do. It must make that distinction and for that reason I am glad it has a timeframe and that it is not rushing in and seeking immediate reforms.

On the other hand, there are clearly some reforms that could be introduced immediately. The leader of Fine Gael, Deputy Kenny, has identified one. There could be a pause on the national wage agreement. We cannot afford to pay it. There could also be a pause on some of the more blatant wastage of public money. However, anyone who goes to a FÁS training centre, as I do every January, and walks into the great machine shops and sees local young men and women at the machines, could not doubt that here is a positive, productive and valuable side of the public service. It is such a productive service that I hope this new force, which I intend to call "an bord snas", will find out. It should promote and reward those who really are public servants and should ask the others to take early retirement. I will take Senator Alex White's question. While I do not wish to see anyone losing his or her job, nor do I wish to see people not doing a full day's work. Such people should be offered early retirement and no more people should be taken into positions in which there is no real work for them to do.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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I am glad that Senators Harris, Ó Murchú, Norris and others brought up the issue of FÁS and emphasised that a large number of people and projects in FÁS are eminently laudable. The problem is there is an extraordinary disconnect or chasm of difference between those who work on the ground in FÁS and those at the top who are helping themselves to the most exorbitant largesse, which is completely unjustified.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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This distinction ought to be made. However, I have been unable to make such a distinction in this House at any length for some time, although I repeatedly have asked for debates on FÁS here. While I repeatedly have been given assurances that they will happen, they repeatedly have failed to appear or be granted.

Particularly in light of the Taoiseach's statement last night, FÁS, certainly in respect of those at its top, continues to be a protected political species, which is a dangerous position for any semi-State agency to be in. I deeply regret the Taoiseach's premature decision to defend the chief executive before the Committee of Public Accounts or any other body entrusted with examining FÁS has made a judgment in this regard. Fine Gael now has decided to examined this issue seriously, which I welcome. However, there has been a reluctance for a long time to examine FÁS and one must ask why. It is not just a political sacred cow as one will find it to be highly politicised in a party political way. This is deeply regrettable and it must stop.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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The board must be moved on and the social partners and political nominees must be removed. It must be made into, as Senator Harris stated, a really good lean machine that works in the public service. At present, it is a bloated sacred cow that must be thinned down.

I ask one relevant question of the Leader. Can Members have a debate on FÁS? Had Members such a debate when I requested it before the summer, this House would be taking the lead on this issue. However, as usual Members are following from behind. If Members have a debate now, it will be too late.

Members should consider one matter which is of concern to me. For years, it was not simply the Irish taxpayer who was funding FÁS to the extent of €1 billion in what constituted unexplained money. For years, European funds also propped up FÁS. Could we consider asking the European Commission whether it would be interested in examining whether those funds were being used properly? There is a deep issue, in that abusing our own funds is one thing but abusing European funds as well in some ways has far more wide-ranging implications for the nation.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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That is a matter for the debate, if we get it.

Dan Boyle (Green Party)
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I support the calls made in the House today for a number of debates, particularly in respect of FÁS. Such a debate must be the widest type possible, particularly as we are entering a time in which there will be increasing job losses and a need to retrain many members of our society. Members must ask whether FÁS, as currently structured, is in a position to do so. Where stand community employment schemes or schemes such as the job initiative? I worked as a ground level operative with FÁS for a number of years.

That said, if Members have the opportunity of having such a debate, which will depend on the availability of the Tánaiste, they cannot avoid the debate on how public money is being expended properly. I have no fear that the money is being spent properly in community training workshops and community employment schemes. However, one is learning on a daily basis of an almost bacchanalian looseness regarding public expenditure in the higher echelons of a State agency. It demands a response from the House in terms of a debate. Senator Ross is correct in highlighting that other bodies are examining the issue, but we should have a debate. Since the Committee of Public Accounts is a select committee of the Dáil due to its powers of compellability, Senators, who cannot be members of it, have a responsibility to highlight inconsistencies.

I do not share Senator Ross's concern about the European Social Fund. I am convinced it has been spent efficiently and properly audited in respect of community employment schemes and training workshops. That said, the stories coming out on a near daily basis demand a debate in the House.

I support Senator Alex White's call for a debate on public sector reform. Tomorrow's report would be a useful stepping stone for such a debate, but it must be placed in context. It is not only a matter of cost efficiency in the public sector. The other side of the coin is the question of whether the public sector is the best it can be, given available resources. If we approach the issue from both perspectives, many unanswered questions will emerge. I look forward to the report's publication.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with those who have raised the need for a debate on FÁS. I concur with Senators Fitzgerald, Ross and others on this side. I accept the points made by many of those on the Government side regarding the importance of the work done by FÁS, but it seems as if an apology is being made to the effect that, since FÁS does good and necessary work, questionable practices in the spending of public money are acceptable.

Community employment schemes operating throughout the country do tremendous work and the apprenticeships run by FÁS are valuable, but they account for less than half of the body's annual budget. We are entitled to ask where the other €700 million is being spent.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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The message being conveyed is that, since FÁS is doing good work, we should not ask questions. Serious questions have been raised concerning accountability and the money afforded top executives in particular. We should have a debate as soon as possible. While Senator Ross has been calling for such for a long time, so has Deputy Varadkar. My beloved colleague, Deputy Hogan, sought a debate on FÁS when he was our spokesman on enterprise.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We will not worry about what the people in the Lower House are discussing. We will worry about this House.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I am surprised by media reports today to the effect that the PAC has been experiencing difficulties in accessing some of FÁS's accounts on top executives' travel expenses. It is a disgrace. The House should have a full and frank discussion of the matter as soon as possible.

I agree with Senator Alex White, who raised a significant problem for people on the Opposition benches. Frequently, the Leader agrees with us when we call for specific debates, but they are never held. Is the Leader finding it difficult to arrange for members of the Cabinet to attend the House to address statements? Two Bills will be before the House this week, but there would be ample opportunity for statements on major issues. Since our all-night session on the bank assurance scheme, the Minister for Finance has not appeared in the House. We should hold a discussion on the recapitalisation of the banks and the Minister should attend it. We have not debated education with the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, since the budget cuts. While the Leader probably agrees, is there a difficulty in arranging for some of the people in question to attend the Chamber to address thorny issues? We should discuss them as soon as possible.

I wish to raise the issues of social partnership and the national wage agreement, which relate to FÁS, given that its board and the boards of many organisations are based on social partnership.

From a Fine Gael perspective and in political terms, it may be difficult to raise this matter, but most people, even those within the public service, admit that we cannot afford the new national wage agreement. We have reached the point in the economic development of the country where we will be obliged to conduct a serious reform of the public service. In the past, I referred to a number of reforms that should take place. The obvious and primary example in this regard is the health service. Particular economies should have been achieved as a result of the amalgamation of the old health boards into the HSE. However, these never came about. There are examples within other Departments and in other areas where such economies must be forthcoming.

We should debate this matter. As far as I am aware, the House has not discussed the new national wage agreement since it was arrived at by the social partners. The Seanad would be a suitable forum in which to debate that agreement.

Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with certain of my colleagues' requests for debates on particular matters. I look forward to the Leader's response in that regard.

On the issue of handguns, Senator Regan was somewhat disingenuous in his comments with regard to the Garda Síochána. The force did a wonderful job in the context of Operation Anvil and showed great determination to deal with the issue of illegally held handguns.

Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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That has nothing to do with what I said.

Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I take this opportunity to congratulate Commissioner Fachtna Murphy and his colleagues on their success in coping with the difficult task they undertook when carrying out Operation Anvil.

I agree with Senator Harris's comments in respect of Senator Regan's remarks on the financial institutions. I put it to Senator Regan that the financial markets have completely changed in the weeks since the Government introduced the initial bail-out for the banks. Before making any further remarks similar to those he made earlier, perhaps the Senator should discuss these matters with those employed by the financial institutions in order to ensure that what he says is correct. What he stated was completely off the wall.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should put a question to the Leader and should not address remarks across the floor to other Members.

Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Regan engaged in taking something of a cheap shot at a former Taoiseach.

Mr. Justice Bryan McMahon handed down an interesting judgment in a case where the HSE and the Information Commissioner challenged each other on matters relating to disclosures under the Freedom of Information Act 1997. The sections in respect of which these challenges were made are section 26, which relates to exemptions in respect of matters of confidence, and section 28, which relates to exemptions with regard to personal information. Will the Leader seek clarification on the impact of the judgment to which I refer and on whether there might be a need to review the terms of the 1997 Act.

There was yet another fatality earlier today as a result of a road traffic accident. Last weekend a number of people were killed on the roads. In certain other countries motorists are obliged to change the tyres on their vehicles at this time of year as a result of changing weather conditions. Will the Leader raise with the Minister for Transport two issues which I believe to be factors in road accidents? I refer to the condition of tyres on motor vehicles and to driver fatigue. Will the Leader inquire of the Minister the promotional campaigns that might be undertaken to highlight these matters?

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader indicate why the House has not engaged in debates on the economy, on the increase in unemployment or on the cutbacks in education that were announced in the budget? I was asked questions on two of those three matters by 15 year old students of a school which I visited yesterday as part of the Oireachtas education programme. Perhaps the Leader will explain the reasons the Ministers have not come into the House.

I have great respect for Senator Harris, who is a man I admire greatly. However, I am a little tired of people criticising Senator Regan who today asked a fundamental question which I too wish to put to the Leader, namely, does he and Members opposite believe it is correct that the former Taoiseach is interfering in Government business at a time that is most critical to the banking sector? Is that correct? Is the former Taoiseach trying to be former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in driving from the back seat?

I pay tribute to the many thousands of people involved in community employment schemes and to the dedicated staff of FÁS.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer must conclude as there are two other Members waiting to put questions to the Leader.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I beg the Cathaoirleach's indulgence and I will conclude on this final point. We must make a distinction between the management and the employees of FÁS. Is it right for someone to spend $410 on a manicure and make-up? In all fairness, is that right? I think that €20 is enough to pay for a hair cut.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer has made his point.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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He did not pay €20 for that hair cut.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment must come into this House for a debate. I know she may be finding it hard to get over to this House and she is struggling in the job, but if she comes to this House we will reassure her that we have policies.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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That is not fair to anyone.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It is the reality.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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That matter is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It is the reality.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator must put questions to the Leader which are relevant to the Order of Business. Senator Buttimer's final comment is not relevant.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I have asked three pertinent questions.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the crisis facing us nationally and internationally, every Member of the Oireachtas is obliged to assist in any way he or she can. If that happens to be a former Taoiseach, all the better. I know that all the Members on this side of the House, and all those whom I know and am friendly with on the opposite side of the House, are doing and will do everything they can to ensure we overcome the many challenges facing us. I am not aware that the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, is assisting the Government in that matter, but if he is, I welcome that.

I ask that the Leader provide for an urgent debate on the seven Border counties. As I am sure many people are aware, there are significant difficulties in that area from a retail perspective. Thousands of people are employed in the Irish indigenous retail sector throughout those counties. I have grave concerns in regard to the number of people crossing the Border, granted to get value for money. We must do all we can to ensure they get value for money this side of the Border. In this regard — I do not know whether this is appropriate but I will ask anyway — will the Leader, on behalf of Seanad Éireann, issue a letter to all multiples, whether of the UK or otherwise, with outlets in both jurisdictions, namely, on the southern and the northern sides of the Border, requesting that they ensure their prices, notwithstanding the currency differential, are at least comparable.

It was recently stated by a UK multiple that the Irish are prepared to pay more, but we are not. As a House of the Oireachtas, we should write to all UK and Irish multiples with outlets on both sides of the Border stating that we expect them to at least ensure their prices are comparable, notwithstanding VAT and currency differences. In that regard, I ask that the Leader bring to the urgent attention of the Minister for Finance and, if necessary, the Taoiseach the announcement this morning in the UK regarding a further reduction in its VAT levels. This is an enormous issue in terms of Border counties, in particular in regard to people going there to purchase alcohol, which they will.

I am aware it is against European law to do so, but we should be promoting Irish products with a buy Irish campaign and asking people to support their local sheriff. I accept we have an obligation to ensure our retailers give the best possible value for money, but we also have a responsibility to be patriotic and to look after our own. While we cannot, as a Government or an Oireachtas, put up banners saying "Give a job, buy Irish" as occurred in the 1980s, there is nothing to stop us as individuals encouraging it, and I certainly will do so.

I conclude by doing what I have promised to do each week until I get something other than a rhetorical reply. I refer to the discrimination against the people of the north-west region. I have again watched the well-produced advertisement on the television promoting BreastCheck for everybody except the people of the north west.

Senators:

And the south east.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Waterford.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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And perhaps the south east.

Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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It is still not universally available.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator MacSharry should conclude, as I want to call other people who are offering.

Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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Numerous amounts of correspondence, numerous debates and constant toing and froing over a period of years have led to no definitive announcement or indication as to when that will take place. It is unacceptable for any political entity, agency, politician or otherwise to perpetrate the level of discrimination on the people of the north west — and other parts — as is happening while at the same time promoting an all-inclusive service to the chosen people as opposed to all of the people.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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Senator Harris suggested we should be more positive. One particular piece of news in today's newspapers is very positive and full of opportunity, which is that Dublin has been selected to host the European city of science meeting in 2012. This will be a great opportunity. I know something about the chief scientific adviser to the Government who chaired a committee that put this together. Dublin beat a number of other cities, including Vienna. I want the Government to support this wholeheartedly, as it has done up to now. However, under the constraints of what could happen in the years ahead, it might just weaken that support. This is a great opportunity for Ireland, not just in the tourists that will come for the event in 2012, but also in allowing us to build our economy in the future on science and technology. We have never had an opportunity like this for the world to focus attention on this case. The professionalism of the team that won this event for Ireland needs to be supported.

Another opportunity is represented by the report that 900 deaths a year in Ireland could be avoided if we ate less salt, which is a dramatic figure about which the Government can do something. We can publicise that if people want to live longer and avoid high blood pressure and heart attacks, they should reduce their salt intake. The figure given was that a reduction of half a teaspoon of salt in each person's daily diet would save 900 lives. One company in the food business decided to reduce the amount of salt in the bread it sold in Britain and it worked very well. It did the same in the Czech Republic and because the Czech people had not been educated by their government at the time, the people poured salt onto the bread and ended up using more salt rather than less. Through education we can save lives. It is the job of the Government and the Food Safety Authority of Ireland to draw people's attention to this. It is an opportunity to save lives.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Finally, I call Senator Wilson. I apologise to other Senators, whom I will call first tomorrow if they so wish.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I join other Senators in calling for a debate on the economy. In particular I agree with my fellow Ulster Senator, Senator Keaveney, who wants to discuss the economy of Ulster. I am concerned mainly with the three southern counties of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal along with the three other Border counties mentioned by Senator MacSharry. Businesses in these six counties are suffering badly. It is time for the Minister for Finance to come to the House to outline not only his plans for the national economy but also the plans he has in mind for the six Border counties. It is time to consider positive discrimination in taxation for these six counties.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Alex White, McFadden, Ó Murchú, Norris, Regan, Harris, Ross, Boyle, John Paul Phelan, Buttimer, Callely, MacSharry and Wilson expressed their strong views on the difficulties being experienced and called for an urgent debate on the economy. I intend to inform the House tomorrow morning when this debate will take place. It will be next week and I need to finalise the day. It will be an all-day debate and I look forward to all Members of the House making their contributions. It is long overdue, as has been said by colleagues. I have been endeavouring to have it take place. Now that the Finance Bill has been published there is no reason it should not proceed.

Issues have been highlighted in the House today regarding FÁS and the good work that has taken place down through the years. That work has been exemplary to say the least of it and all our communities have benefited greatly from it. I know the Tánaiste is committed to ensuring value for money from FÁS by maximising the use of our scarce resources in the current challenging economic and employment circumstances. It is for that reason that, following concerns highlighted in a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General into the procurement practices of FÁS, the Tánaiste has requested that the Comptroller and Auditor General report further on the effectiveness of the management and control systems across the FÁS organisation in general. The purpose of the examination, as we all know, is to examine and report on the activities of FÁS's corporate affairs since 2000 and to ensure the necessary public procurement procedures exist to prevent or detect irregularities and wrongdoing.

In addition, the Tánaiste has begun a review of the effectiveness and efficiencies of the labour market programmes, including those provided by FÁS. A steering group managing this review includes officials from the Departments of Finance, Social and Family Affairs, and Education and Science, FÁS and Skillnets, and will be supported by Forfás. It is expected that this review will be completed in mid-2009.

I understand the Committee of Public Accounts is due to resume its examination of FÁS this week in the context of the original report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It has been requested by Senator Ross and others that we should discuss FÁS in the House, including its achievements, responsibilities and future prospects from now to 2020. As has been mentioned on many occasions, it receives funding of €1 billion a year, €20 million per week, which is a huge sum of money. The challenges facing FÁS are the woes of the world and the challenges facing the nation to upskill and reskill our workforce, especially all those unfortunate to lose employment in the past 12 months or longer. As a Government, a nation and as the two Houses of Parliament, I know we will be forthcoming in giving FÁS all the support we can.

The Comptroller and Auditor General is there to reassure the House regarding any difficulties being experienced. As mentioned today the Committee of Public Accounts, chaired by the eminent Member, Deputy Allen, of Fine Gael, will show true transparency in order that we can get the best value for money we possibly can. When our backs were to the wall in the 1980s, FÁS rallied to the call in glowing terms. It formed the backbone of our communities and gave the men and women of Ireland at the time a reason to get out of bed in the morning and have something to look forward to by having a little work in which to participate while retraining and upskilling. I wish it well in its future deliberations and the challenges it will need to face in coming years.

Senators Keaveney, Wilson and MacSharry were all concerned about their areas. As my parish is the last parish in Leinster on the Ulster border, I certainly know the challenges facing them. It is not all one way. We have cheaper petrol and diesel and have been getting our fair share of people coming across the Border to fill up their tanks and avail of the low prices on our side of the Border. We are in a time when everyone is watching his or her spending. People should support their own communities by purchasing in their own communities, particularly in the villages, to the best possible extent.

As I know, having chaired the committee which reviewed the grocery order review, and as Senator Coghlan, the deputy leader of Fine Gael in the Seanad, who served on that committee and who is present, knows, along with many other colleagues, an island nation experiences difficulties in bringing in produce, whether by air or by sea. Prices are slightly cheaper in the multiple stores in the North than they are in the South. Anyone who is licensed to trade in these territories know that the North's licensing area is taken as the UK, which has a market of 60 million people. In equating that to the licensing market of 4.5 million people in the South, differences come into play. The manufacturing costs of the products on the shelves is a little lower in the North because it has the licensing area of a market of 60 million people in the UK.

It is a trying time for anyone with a family business. We recommend that everyone support them in any way possible. It comes down to simple matters. Collections and fund-raising take place in parishes and people automatically go to the local store or local shopkeeper for money for these. Those shopkeepers are the backbone of communities so why, therefore, should we not support them and thereby support communities? One can travel miles from one's local area to go shopping but one will not get support for one's fund-raising efforts there. All these matters are important to communities and community life in general. Long may community life continue as we have known it down through the years on this beautiful island of Ireland.

Senators O'Malley and McFadden called for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to attend for a debate on domestic violence, for which I have no difficulty in setting aside time. Senators McFadden and Callely expressed strong views on road safety. I sympathise and send our condolences to the family of those involved in the shocking accident that took place on the Cummerstown Road in my area this morning. I know the road well. The accident involving the unfortunate family occurred just outside the village of Collinstown. The motor vehicle turned over and the mother of four was killed instantly and her four children were in the vehicle with her. It is an appalling tragedy especially coming up to Christmas but it is an appalling tragedy to happen at any time. I send our condolences to the family on their loss following the shocking tragedy that took place this morning.

Senator Keaveney referred to the obesity study report and said that products should be properly labelled in terms of the information content, details of which she pointed out to the House. I have no difficulty in arranging for a debate on this matter at the earliest possible time.

Senator Regan called for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to outline his proposals on the matter of legally held guns, and this matter was also raised by Senator Callely. I know the strong views of the Minister on this matter. I will pass the views of the Senators on to the Minister and, if a debate on it is required, I have no difficulty allocating time for one.

Senator John Paul Phelan asked if I had a difficulty in getting Ministers to attend the House. As the Deputy will know, the Minister, Deputy Smith, came to this House just hours before he departed for the United States last week. We had a lengthy debate, sought as a matter of urgency, to which Members on all sides of the House contributed. I have no difficulty in getting Ministers to come to address the House. It is only a matter of it fitting in with their diaries. Any Whip or leader of the groups would know that this is the norm for running the business of both Houses.

I can pass on the views of Senator Callely in regard to matters pertaining to Mr. Justice McMahon. Senator MacSharry expressed his strongly held views on the roll-out of BreastCheck and he must be commended on his determination to address the plight of the people of the north west. I will again pass on his strong views to the Minister, as I do every week. It is to be hoped that it will not be too long until that is put right and the people in the north west get their entitlement to that service. It is urgently needed and I fully support the Senator in his call for its provision.

Senator Quinn advised the House that if we reduced our intake of salt, it could save up to approximately 900 lives per year in Ireland. This is an alarming statistic that does not cross one's mind. I thank the Senator for informing the House of that and will pass his views on to the Minister.

I congratulate the city council and everyone associated with the winning team who secured that Dublin city will be the European city of science for 2012. This will present a marvellous opportunity for us to show our European colleagues our past achievements and how seriously we take science and technology, research and development and everything that goes with it because the future employment of our young generation is based around the importance of science and technology.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Fitzgerald has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That statements on FÁS and the economy be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Yes.