Seanad debates
Wednesday, 14 May 2008
Order of Business
10:30 am
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Statements on Rural Development; No. 2, Legal Practitioners (Irish Language) Bill 2007 — Second Stage; and No. 17, Private Members' motion No. 38 re the economic outlook. It is proposed that No.1, Statements on Rural Development, will be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and will conclude not later than 1.45 p.m. Spokespersons may speak for ten minutes, all other Senators for seven minutes and Senators may share time by leave of the House, with the Minister to be called upon ten minutes from the end of the debate for concluding comments and to take questions from leaders. No. 2, Legal Practitioners (Irish Language) Bill 2007 — Second Stage, will be taken on the conclusion of No. 1. Spokespersons may speak for ten minutes, all other Senators for seven minutes and Senators may share time by agreement of the House. No. 17, Private Members' motion No. 38 re the economic outlook, will be taken on the conclusion of No. 2. The business of the House will be interrupted from 1.45 p.m. to 3 p.m.
Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh Deasún Mac an Easpaig atá anseo linn inniu. I congratulate Senator Mark Daly on asking Mr. Des Bishop to meet Members of the Oireachtas who are attending Irish classes and trying to improve their fluency. The initiative Mr. Bishop has undertaken has been great and it will be very encouraging to many who would like to improve their fluency. Having spent so many years in the classroom, we are all disappointed that we do not have the fluency we desire. I hope Mr. Bishop's going to live in the Gaeltacht and developing fluency will be of great encouragement to a new generation in becoming fluent. I am sure Senator Ó Murchú, who has done so much in this area, will join me in saying this.
I want to discuss aid for Burma and the circumstances in that country. The French foreign minister called on the world yesterday to deliver aid without the agreement of the junta leaders who are proving very resistant to the sending of aid to Burma. We await an all-party motion on Burma in the House. Perhaps the Leader will clarify the position of the Irish Government on Burma. I hope we will be able to use our credibility at European level. We have such credibility because of the amount of money we donate in aid. I hope our Minister for Foreign Affairs can intercede or do some work on this issue to ensure aid is received by the people who need it most. Perhaps the new Minister of State responsible for overseas aid, Deputy Peter Power, can come to the House to discuss this early next week when we are considering the motion on Burma, which I hope will be agreed by every Member of the House.
Yet again, a very small number of women — two out of 20 — have been appointed as Ministers of State. This is a stark reflection of the small number of women in the Oireachtas overall. We have one of the smallest numbers in Europe. Even on a worldwide scale, our figure of 13% is very low. It behoves all political parties in the run-up to the local and European elections to take positive action on the issue of gender in politics because there is such an imbalance.
Another aspect of the appointments requires clarification by the Leader. Why has the portfolio of arts been given to a Minister of State? Reports state that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism will now deal with sport and tourism while the Minister of State, Deputy Martin Mansergh, will be responsible for the Office of Public Works and arts. The arts community will be very concerned about this development and it needs clarification in the days to come. Has responsibility been given totally to a Minister of State, as has been reported, or will the Minister still have some function in this area?
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Tacaím go mór leis an méid atá ráite ag an Seanadóir Frances Fitzgerald, go mórmhór mar gheall ar an Ghaelainn. Gan amhras, d'iarr mé go mbeadh díospóireacht ar an Ghaelainn cúpla seachtain ó shin. At that stage the Leader indicated he would be happy to have a debate on Irish language development. Ba mhaith liom go mór go ndéanfá sin. Tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach ag an bpointe seo. Ó thaobh na rudaí atá ráite ag an Seanadóir Frances Fitzgerald agus ag an Seanadóir Labhrás Ó Murchú le déanaí, ba mhaith an rud é go mbeadh an tábhar sin pléite againn. Gné an-tábhachtach den ábhar seo ná an díospóireacht atá ar siúl mar gheall ar thumoideachas sna gaelscoileanna, modh múinte lena bhfuil múinteoirí, tuismitheoirí agus boird bainistíochta na scoileanna an-sásta. Mar sin féin, tá an Rialtas ag cur ina choinne. Bhí an tAire go dtí seo ag cur ina choinne chomh maith. N'fheadar an bhfuil aon athrú aigne ar an Aire nua. Ba mhaith liom go bpléifear an tábhar seo.
An Adjournment matter of mine was ruled out of order because it was anticipatory of a Bill before the House. This ruling is new to me. I am sure there is a very good reason but I would like it explained. I believed it could only be ruled out of order if the Minister had no responsibility for the matter. I am not challenging the ruling but would like it explained, not necessarily now.
I believed we had an understanding that Private Members' time on Wednesday would begin at 5 p.m. rather than on the conclusion of No. 2.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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My apologies. It will be from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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That is okay. There was a commitment to have a debate on Burma next Tuesday. I expected to see the motion on the Order Paper today. Can we expect to see it tomorrow?
Some who are against the European treaty might consider an aspect of European foreign policy with which they might agree. Individuals such as I, who support the treaty, would be very opposed to President Sarkozy and all he stands for, yet I must stand back and admire the stand he has taken recently on China and Burma and on other matters. We need straight talking in European diplomacy and I look forward to discussing this in more detail next Tuesday when we have a debate on it. Will the Leader confirm that such a debate will take place, such that we can discuss these issues and related matters?
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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On the Senator's point on the Adjournment matter, Senator Donohoe dealt with it in great detail when considering the Bill yesterday. It is to be considered again tomorrow. I can talk to the Senator afterwards about my reason for ruling the matter out of order.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. Is it a matter that could be agreed upon at some stage?
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Certainly, at any time in the future. The Bill is still being considered in the House at present and will not be completed until tomorrow.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh Deasún Mac an Easpaig freisin. He spoke to us this morning at the Irish class and made a very inspirational speech about his time in the Gaeltacht and about how much Irish he learned and how quickly. We can all learn from this and we are all grateful to him for visiting. I thank Senator Daly for facilitating the visit.
I was relieved this morning to see the two-yearly report by the ESRI which predicts growth of 27% over the next eight years up to 2015. This growth will not be achieved by default and will require hard work. The report is quite clear in stating jobs will be lost in some sectors, such as manufacturing, but there will be job opportunities in other sectors, such as financial services, but only if we plan for them, retrain staff and invest in making it easier for people to go back to school. We must ensure the availability of faster broadband and deliver new infrastructure on time and within budget. There is nothing to fear economically over the next eight to ten years provided the Government makes the steps necessary to prepare for the changes in the jobs market.
The report also expresses concern over certain issues. It states we will not meet our targets for greenhouse gas emissions and we need to recycle more. This morning I listened to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government talking on the radio about the environment and I was especially concerned about his comments on waste management. He did not inspire confidence at all and his contribution was closer to performance art than a serious attempt to tackle the issue. If the Green Party is to make an impression in Government, it should deliver on waste management.
As with Senator Fitzgerald, I was disappointed by the composition of the Ministries of State yesterday. Of 20 appointees, only two are female, Deputies Mary Wallace and Máire Hoctor. This amounts to only 10%. I cannot believe the Taoiseach could not find good, competent women that would be able to join the ranks of Ministers of State. In the Leader's constituency there is a Mary who would have done a very good job. The Taoiseach could have looked inside our own Chamber, where there is a Cecelia and a Déirdre who would have been admirable candidates. The Taoiseach took the lazy option.
Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
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Although he could have appointed more women he took the lazy option, which does not bode well for the performance of the Government. This is more of the same but had he taken some courage, he could have helped to change the country for the better.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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That is the prerogative of the Taoiseach, not of this House.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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My constituency does not have a Minister.
Ciarán Cannon (Progressive Democrats)
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I also congratulate Mr. Des Bishop on the highly enlightening and inspiring series of programmes he aired recently on television. I congratulate Senator Daly for inviting him to Leinster House to speak to the Irish class this morning. The beauty of Mr. Bishop's recent series was that it shows that with a virtually complete immersion in our language and culture, combined with a dedicated effort on the part of people to acquire a language, this can be done in a reasonably short time. The most inspirational part of the programme was when Mr. Bishop met a Korean in Times Square, New York, who has never set foot in Ireland but who spoke fluent Irish with a beautiful Connemara blas.
The newly-appointed Minister for Education and Science should come before the House to discuss the manner in which our native language is taught in our schools. I have an 11 year old son who is of average intelligence. Up to now he has spent six years in our national system——
Ciarán Cannon (Progressive Democrats)
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Bíonn mé ag iarraidh caint leis i nGaeilge beagnach an t-am go léir, ach beagnach an t-am go léir níl sé in ann mé a thuiscint. Members must ask themselves why, after six years in our national school system, I cannot carry out a basic conversation in Irish with my son. He has reasonable competence, has had excellent teachers and Members must ask how effective is the system whereby our language is taught. At this point, we must have one aim only, that is, upon departure from the national school system a child could be dropped into the middle of Connemara and would be able to hold a basic conversation with a native speaker. This is not being achieved and Members must ask the Minister to examine the issue in a new, fresh and innovative manner. I would greatly welcome the opportunity to speak on that issue, should the Minister choose to appear in the Seanad.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I was unable to facilitate a few Senators yesterday and I will take them first. I call Senator Coghlan.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Ba mhaith liom freisin fáilte a chur roimh Des Bishop. His efforts to popularise the Irish language are wonderful. I agree with the comments about him by the other speakers, as he gave a lovely talk this morning. Hopefully many of us amadáns will be much more proficient as Gaeilge when we receive this total immersion——
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Ní amadán é an Seanadóir. Tá sé an-ghlic ar fad.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Wonderful teachers have been allocated to this course and all those who intend to participate look forward to joining them in the Gaeltacht in due course. I wish to compliment Senator Daly, as well as Senators Labhrás Ó Murchú, Joe O'Toole and all Members who have helped over the years without such assistance, both to use our language and to show other Members they can use it too. I wish Mr. Des Bishop well in his talks with the new Minister for Education and Science because he has some good and interesting ideas about how our language can be better taught. It reverts to the points made by Senator Cannon and it is to be hoped that some good will flow from this.
On the appointment of the Ministers of State, whom I congratulate, I have a particular interest in the appointment to the Office of Public Works, of Members' former colleague in the Seanad, Deputy Martin Mansergh. It pertains to an issue already touched on by Senator Fitzgerald, namely, the attachment to the Office of Public Works of the arts, which is highly interesting. I also seek clarification from the Leader as to whether arts is being separated from the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism or whether the Minister, Deputy Martin Cullen, will continue to have some involvement in arts. It is long overdue that our built heritage should be entirely within the remit of the Office of Public Works and not scattered between that office and the National Parks and Wildlife Service. This is a fallacy and is wrong. Our magnificent State properties should be together under the aegis of the Office of Public Works. I have made representations to the former Taoiseach on the matter and I hope to make further representations on the matter to the Taoiseach, Deputy Brian Cowen in due course. However, the Leader should respond in respect of the manner in which responsibility for built heritage is scattered and to clarify the position of arts vis-À-vis the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I dtosach, is mian liom aontú leis na cainteoirí eile agus an Seanadóir Nic Gearailt a d'ardaigh ceist na Gaeilge anseo ar maidin. Thóg mé faoi deara le tamall fada anuas go bhfuil borradh nua ann ó thaobh na Gaeilge de — ní amháin go bhfuil dea-thoil i gceist, ach go bhfuil daoine ag iarraidh rudaí praiticiúla a dheanamh chun an Gaeilge a chleachtadh agus a chur chun cinn. Ní dóigh liom go raibh sé sin chomh sofheicthe i stair an Stáit is atá sé i láthair na huaire. Tá súil agam nach mbeidh an seans seo caillte agus go mbeimid go léir ag obair as lámha a chéile.
I have always believed that it is not the people who are fluent in Irish who will save the language. Rather, it is those who wish to come forward to take ownership of the language who will do so. For too long, people have seen Irish as being somewhat elitist when it should be the language of the people. Paddy McElvaney was one of the founder members of the organisation with which I am connected, Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, and he has gone to his eternal reward since then. However, while he may not have been able to put four or five words together, he challenged the rest of us to do so. Coming from a person who was not perceived to be an authority on the language or absolutely fluent, I believe he had greater influence and a greater impact than those of us who perhaps had greater knowledge. This is what I see happening at present.
I also wish to avail of the opportunity to congratulate all those who have been appointed to the position of Minister of State. I will be unashamedly parochial in singling out in particular Senator Martin Mansergh on his appointment.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I have stated many times that I always have been taken by his integrity at all times. He is a unique politician in that regard and I do not believe I have ever heard him criticising other people in that context.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator must not have been listening.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Certainly, he has a wide knowledge of his portfolio. He spoke on such issues in this Chamber on many occasions and I look forward to working with him, as well as with all the other Ministers and Ministers of State. In particular, I take Senator Paul Coghlan's point on our interest in, and commitment to, the built heritage in Ireland. One could not live in Cashel without saying that, because I look across the Rock of Cashel whenever I am at home. It reminds me every day of our wonderful heritage.
I have argued for years that there is something particularly striking in linking the arts, which constitute the living heritage, with our built heritage. Coming to the Rock of Cashel without having the related living heritage constituted a vacuum and a weakness. Any Members who visit Cashel are welcome to come to the home of the living heritage at the foot of the rock, Brú Ború, and I look forward to hosting all of them this summer.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I hope Members are not engaged in promotional exercises.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the welcome given to Mr. Des Bishop by other Members. I have found him to be an inspiration, particularly to young people. The programmes he made in the Gaeltacht have been tremendous. Picking up on Senator Cannon's comments, as education spokesperson for Sinn Féin I attended the INTO conference. The call from the conference was that Des Bishop has done more for the Irish language than has the Minister for Education and Science.
It is important that Members do not only debate and discuss the Irish language when a celebrity such as Des Bishop is present.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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This is an issue that must be debated. Moreover, the debate should have happened already. I have called for such a debate, as have other Members, and it has not taken place. While Members can say nice things when a celebrity appears on their doorstep, were they sincere about the renewal of the Irish language in the education system and throughout general society, they must stop paying lip service to it.
11:00 am
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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A real debate is required and two days or a full week should be set aside in this regard. If Members feel sufficiently passionate about the Irish language, the House could meet on a Monday or a Friday. I am a fluent Irish speaker, as are many others in this Chamber. However, little Irish is spoken here and when it is spoken, no one uses the translation system. There is a pressure in this regard. Although many Members wish to make their contributions in their native language, people do not listen to the English version, which is not right.
There must be a proper debate on how we can support the Irish language in this chamber. There are serious questions about education. Senator Cannon is right about this. The reality is that the Minister and the Department of Education and Science are now ending a practice that is successful and has been so for decades. That is the early Irish language immersion in our Gaelscoileanna. It is ridiculous that this is happening. The previous Minister, Deputy Hanafin, was trying to fix something that was not broken. It is an attack on the Gaelscoileanna which are outside the Gaeltacht. Students coming out of them have excellent Irish language abilities. I cannot fathom this approach. We need a real debate and I hope the Leader will take this on board.
Yesterday a number of Senators said that there was no connection between the WTO and the Lisbon treaty. That is nonsense. Anybody who saw "Questions and Answers" last Monday saw the nonsense that Fine Gael and the Government are peddling on this issue. Both spokespersons talked about a veto. When challenged by Sinn Féin and another member of the panel they said that no international trade agreements are by qualified majority voting. They are repeatedly changing their tune. The reality is that Article 188 takes international trade agreements away from the principle of unanimity and into the area of qualified majority voting. The Trade Commissioner, Mr. Peter Mandelson, has a mandate from the Commission to enter into the negotiations but the outcome of these must be agreed by the Council of Ministers after the Lisbon treaty is ratified. After Lisbon, that veto is removed.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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A number of Senators have sought a debate in the House.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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A number of Senators have sought it and I wish to finish——
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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It is dishonest and what is most worrying——-
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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What is most worrying to me is the thought that Members of this House are either deliberately telling lies——
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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——or else they are ill informed about what is in this treaty. They must be honest with the farmers of rural Ireland. They must set it out.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The House is not debating the Lisbon treaty on the Order of Business. I ask the Senator to refrain.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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How many times was the treaty debated yesterday on the Order of Business? Untruths were peddled in this chamber and they are from misinformants who are being dishonest, disingenuous——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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——to the agricultural community on an issue of vital importance.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to resume his seat or to leave the House. There is no point in carrying on like that. I missed out on awarding time to the Senator yesterday and I gave him the opportunity to get in first today. If Members are going to carry on like that and break the rules of the House I will be reluctant to take them early, or at any time. A number of Members — I was prepared to include the Senator among them — have asked the Leader for that debate. They made their point by seeking the debate and that is all I will allow. I do not want a speech on it when a point is made to the Leader.
Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat. Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Seanadóir Mark Daly faoi cuireadh a thabhairt do Des Bishop a bheith san Oireachtas inniu. Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíochta nua faoi stadás na Gaeilge sna scoileanna. Aontaím leis an Seanadóir Cannon nach bhfuil morán daoine in ann caint as Gaeilge, cé go bhfuil gach éinne ag foghlaim na Gaeilge agus ábalta scríobh i nGaeilge. Is é seo an t-am ceart leis an ábhar a phlé sa Teach. Tá ranganna Gaeilge ar siúl le cúpla bliain anuas san Oireachtas do Sheanadóirí agus Teachtaí Dála.
I wish to raise a second issue, that of the arts. The appointment of Deputy Mansergh to the position of Minister of State with responsibility for arts means that the arts are in a very safe pair of hands. The questions that arise concern funding, the battle at budget times and the status of junior versus senior Ministers. I welcome that the position has been established so that somebody can deal with this area. When it is under the aegis of Arts, Sports and Tourism, it can get lost among the sectionalism of sport and tourism. While I accept Deputy Mansergh to be a safe pair of hands, I am anxious that the House should have clarification on matters such as funding and status.
Through the Leader I ask the Taoiseach to consider consolidation of those involved in the Department of the Marine. Including junior and senior Ministers, five or six are involved in different aspects of the marine. It must be very difficult for them to co-ordinate and it is difficult for Members to know who is in charge of particular aspects.
I welcome those Ministers who were appointed and I offer my commiseration to my county colleague, Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher, and also to Deputies John Brown and Michael Ahern, who have been stepped down in this instance. I wish well to all, to those who have taken up their new positions and to those who remain in their existing positions.
Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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There is widespread acceptance across both sides of the House of the need for continued investment in public infrastructure and for maintaining focus on how it will be delivered. It has always been apparent that the cost of making this happen is immense. We have all acknowledged as much and there has been much discussion about it.
It is becoming increasingly apparent that there will be another cost for the delivery of the infrastructure, particularly in Dublin, in terms of the upheaval that will take place in the city when many elements of Transport 21 take place. The best example of this, and one which is now beginning to cause public debate, concerns what is to happen to St Stephen's Green. This is the site of the new metro stop, of big works for the inter-connector, and probably also for expansion of the Luas service. I call again on the Leader to facilitate a debate in this House on Transport 21.
The Leader has had many requests to organise a debate on the status of Transport 21, to allow Members to discover how the project stands and to put points of view across on these points. This has not happened. Two issues are becoming increasingly apparent. The first is that greater clarity is needed about how these projects are to happen. There is a growing and worrying perception that the city of Dublin will be closed while these projects are being delivered. This causes great concern to businesses within the area. The second point concerns what will occur with the projects in St Stephen's Green. There must be a much greater focus on the design of the buildings and works. Everybody will pay a big price when this happens and we must ensure that what will be in place will be genuinely beautiful.
I lend support to my colleagues who have called for a debate on the Lisbon treaty. I wish to make it clear, however, that I will not take lectures from Sinn Féin or anybody else on the "No" side.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to get into that debate now. We can have that when the proper debate happens.
Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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I wish to make it clear that this is the side which has been telling people there will be an end to the veto on taxation.
Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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The Referendum Commission, on its first public occasion, dispelled that notion and said that such was not the case.
Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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Let there be a debate in the House but I will not take lectures from anybody on the "No" side
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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They back up the copious arguments about the international trade agreements.
Paschal Donohoe (Fine Gael)
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There is a need for honesty and clarity.
Maria Corrigan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the ESRI report this morning on the very positive economic outlook that lies ahead. It carries with it a health warning. We run the risk of becoming transfixed by the present economic difficulties and thus missing out on opportunities. What the report tells us is that we must plan. There is no shortage of ideas and plans coming from this House, and from the Dáil.
Senator Fitzgerald raised the question of the number of women involved in politics. The Inter-Parliamentary Union, IPU, recently published a report on gender equality. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to discuss the implications of the report for Ireland. The report places this country firmly at the bottom of world ratings concerning involvement of women in politics. Within the Dáil, the figure is 13%, in Seanad Éireann it is 20%. Overall the percentage is very low and leaves us behind other European countries and countries such as Sierra Leone. Even in Iraq, a quota system of 25% has been introduced. We must all get involved. It is not just about what women are appointed to Government. As an insufficient number of women are elected in the first instance, it is difficult to appoint them when they are not available. We have an opportunity through the Oireachtas school programme to do something in this regard. When we are in local schools we should encourage young girls as well as young boys to take an interest in politics because we need a more balanced approach.
Since my appointment to the Seanad I have raised the issue of the legislative deficit that exists for people with disabilities with regard to their legal entitlements concerning decision making. I welcome the fact that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is working on a capacity Bill. Is there is a timeframe for when that legislation might be ready and introduced in the House?
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a ghabháil leis na daoine a d'fhreastal ar an rang Gaeilge inniu. I congratulate those who have attended. At least three Members of this House are attending French classes. Those who have organised language classes in both French and Irish are to be congratulated on the arrangements that have been made. I was in France yesterday and I was impressed to see a number of signs in the airport about avian flu. I read an article by Muiris Houston in The Irish Times yesterday which drew attention to the fact that there is concern about this issue in America. The World Health Organisation has said that the threat of an avian flu pandemic has not diminished. Ireland has a pandemic influenza expert group. According to the article I mentioned, if there is a pandemic of avian flu, decisions will have to be made in America, and I would imagine they would have to be made here too, about treatment.
There are not enough facilities to cater for everybody in a pandemic so decisions will be made that those who are least valuable or most likely to contract the disease should not have the benefit of the care that otherwise would be given. A report published in America, Definitive Care for the Critically Ill During a Disaster, states that people of a certain age would probably have to manage without care. If such a decision must be made, it is worthy of debate. It is now being debated in America but not here. We should consider having a debate on the issue. It is suggested that people over 60 will have to do without care, so I have a vested interest in this. The Leader should ensure we have that debate as the subject is worthy of it. The possibility of avian flu occurring has not gone away. I did not notice any signs about avian flu in Dublin Airport, although they might have been there, but the signs were dramatically apparent on entering France. We must keep our attention on this issue.
Déirdre de Búrca (Green Party)
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Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh Des Bishop freisin. Is dóigh liom gur iontach an rud a rinne sé nuair a chuaigh sé go dtí an Ghaeltacht. Tugann sé sampla dúinn go léir. Tá sé ar intinn agam dul go dtí an Ghaeltacht i rith an tsamhraidh chun iarracht a dhéanamh feabhas a chur ar mo chuid Gaeilge, chun go mbeidh a dhóthain muiníne agam í a úsáid anseo.
I admire Des Bishop for going to the Gaeltacht and giving an example of how one can improve one's Irish. I intend to improve my Irish so I can have the confidence to participate in more debates in the Seanad through Irish. I also echo the comments of Senator O'Toole and others regarding the policy of tomoideachas or total immersion in the Irish language.
The previous Minister for Education and Science indicated that it was the Department's intention to introduce a policy whereby half an hour of English would be taught to children in their second year of education in gaelscoileanna. This is a break with the established policy of total immersion in the Irish language for the first two years of attending a gaelscoil. I hope the new Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, will reconsider this ill-thought out policy. It appears from the public meetings I have attended and the lobbying on this issue that the policy is not based on research or best practice in other countries, which have shown that where a policy of total immersion in the minority language, such as Irish, occurs, it does not interfere with but actually enhances children's ability to acquire the majority language. I hope the Department's policy will be reconsidered.
I agree with Senators who voiced their concern about the small number of women who have been appointed to the office of Minister of State. It is a matter of concern, although I congratulate all the Ministers of State who were appointed yesterday by the Taoiseach. This House should examine the issue of how to promote more women to positions such as Minister of State. It is true that if there are not enough women in the Dáil and Seanad, it will not be possible to appoint women to those positions when opportunities arise such as the Taoiseach had yesterday. I ask the Leader to facilitate that debate, perhaps in the context of the IPU report, during which we could examine the issue of women's participation in politics and what the Houses of the Oireachtas can do to promote greater participation.
There is another issue I wish to raise and I hope you will bear with me, a Chathaoirligh, given that you said you did not want a debate on the Lisbon treaty on the Order of Business. However, I have heard representatives of Sinn Féin make the point that if Irish farmers support the Lisbon treaty, Ireland will lose its veto on negotiations within the World Trade Organisation on agriculture. That is absolutely false.
Déirdre de Búrca (Green Party)
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I must say this because the allegation is false. Ireland does not have a veto on agricultural negotiations at present.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I have ruled other Members out of order, Senator.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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I said international trade agreements, not agricultural negotiations.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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Does Ireland have a veto on international trade agreements at present?
Déirdre de Búrca (Green Party)
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We cannot allow something like this to pass. That message is being sent to Irish farmers and Mr. Gerry Adams, the president of Sinn Féin, said it at a meeting of the National Forum on Europe last week. It is wrong and it should not be repeated. If Irish farmers vote for the Lisbon treaty, it will not change the negotiating position of Ireland——
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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A number of Members have sought a debate from the Leader——
Déirdre de Búrca (Green Party)
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——or any veto because no veto exists at present.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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——and the Leader will allow that debate. I call Senator Regan.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader clarify when the debate will be held on the World Trade Organisation negotiations? That would offer the opportunity of clarifying the situation for Senator Doherty.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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And for the Senator. Hopefully, the Senators will withdraw some of the untruths that have been voiced.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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If Senators are not prepared to allow other Members to speak, I will ask them to leave the House.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise another issue concerning the Lisbon treaty. It is prompted by an article in The Irish Times today in which the former Deputy, Mr. Joe Higgins, claims the treaty will open the way for privatisation of public services. This is the same line that Sinn Féin trots out in its campaign.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, we are not discussing the treaty now.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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It is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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——that the actual wording in the treaty——
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I have a question for the Leader on this and I am entitled to offer the basis for my question.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I want to hear a question on the Order of Business. The preamble should be omitted.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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There are specific provisions in the treaty on services of general economic interest and services of general interest. This is totally contradictory to the statements made by Mr. Joe Higgins, Ms Mary Lou McDonald and others from Sinn Féin. Furthermore, this is entirely different from the line taken by Libertas——
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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——so there are blatant contradictions on the "No" side. It is important that the relevant Minister make a statement on the issue of privatisation as it concerns public undertakings and public services. They are not, and never have been, interfered with by Europe except to the extent that they are required to comply with the competition and Internal Market rules. They are protected by this protocol——
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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——and by specific articles in the treaty.
Eugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to urge the relevant Minister to make a statement and give the lie to the line being put out by Mr. Joe Higgins, Sinn Féin et al.
Ivor Callely (Fianna Fail)
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I listened with interest to my colleague, Senator Donohoe, when he outlined his concerns about the infrastructural development of the city of Dublin. The Dublin City Business Association made a worthy and fine presentation to the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment this morning. When the representatives of the association expressed concerns about certain issues, they spoke positively about the development and economic growth of the city. They praised what has happened over recent years. Much of the progress that has been made can be attributed to the work of the Dublin City Business Association. I wanted to draw that to Senator Donohoe's attention.
I ask the Leader to contact the relevant authorities to ascertain whether a review of this country's water safety policies is being undertaken. As we approach the summer, I am reflecting on the death of a friend of my young son, who was tragically killed off the west coast last year. A number of people suffer tragedy throughout the summer months, which is when we usually try to enjoy water activities. There has been an increase in the use of motorised equipment, such as jet skis, on the water but we have failed to put appropriate regulations in place. I am not happy that a person can buy a jet ski or motorboat of any size, jump on it and do whatever they want with it, wherever they want. The Leader should ask the authorities to outline what they are doing to put in place the recommendations and proposals which are required.
I pay tribute to the hundreds of volunteer workers from various aid agencies and non-governmental organisations who undertake tremendous work, particularly in response to disasters like those in Burma and China. They are tackling huge challenges and obstacles in such areas. I understand that in Burma, approximately 34,000 people have died, approximately 28,000 people are missing and approximately 1.8 million people are homeless. Equally, a humanitarian crisis is developing in China as a result of the recent disaster there. If we allow man-made obstacles to disrupt the work of these tremendous aid agencies, something is radically wrong. There is a need for some kind of humanitarian rapid response unit. I propose that the leaders of all parties in the House should agree an all-party motion to allow aid agencies to carry out the humanitarian work that is required.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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D'fhoglaim mé a lán Gaeilge i Scoil Phádraig Naofa i nDún Mánmhaí, ach nuair a d'fhág mé an scoil rinne mé dearmad ar mór-chuid de. The problem with the teaching of the Irish language in this country is that one's association with the language ends when one leaves secondary school. I congratulate Des Bishop for reawakening the debate on Irish. He has highlighted the usefulness of immersion education, in particular. Attempts to deny the merits of that method are not worthwhile. We need to learn lessons from it. I question the methodology that is used to teach Irish in our schools. I commend Senators O'Toole and Ó Murchú for using their Munster Irish. Equally, the former Senator, Breandán Ó Riain, used a great deal of Irish when he was a Member of this House.
I agree with Senator Keaveney that a separate marine Department needs to be established. That there is no Minister for the marine at Cabinet level is a huge disadvantage, not only for public representatives who have to deal with the many aspects of the marine sector, but also for those who are involved in the industry. It is not good enough that a sector which should be covered by a full Ministry is dispersed across five or six Departments. It restricts the ability of the Government to deal with marine issues in a coherent manner. As the marine sector, which is worth €3 billion per annum, represents a substantial part of the economy, it deserves a full Cabinet Minister, some Ministers of State and a dedicated group of civil servants.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I join other Senators in asking the Leader to invite the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, to come to the House to discuss the ongoing World Trade Organisation talks. Such a debate would be timely in the context of the link that is currently being made by certain groups between the WTO and the Lisbon treaty. While we have to agree the Lisbon treaty, we do not have to sign a WTO agreement. In light of the current global food crisis, we may be better off if a world trade agreement is not reached. We could reach bilateral agreements to ensure there is equity and fairness in global trade. It would be detrimental — it would bring the EU into disrepute, as I have previously said — to ask for a reduction in production at a time when there are food shortages throughout the world. I suggest that a debate on this matter be arranged at an early stage. I do not believe a WTO agreement is needed. However, the Lisbon treaty is an imperative if the EU is to work properly.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Ba mhaith liom cur leis an bhfáilte a bhronnadh ar Des Bishop, a bhí linn ar maidin. As a former educator, I am ashamed to say I have realised for some time that we are not teaching Irish in the right way. Des Bishop took a great deal of value from the year he spent in the Gaeltacht. By the time most children sit the leaving certificate, they will have spent 14 years learning Irish. It does not add up. The modhanna múinte, or methodologies, we are using are incorrect. We do not compare favourably with other European countries, in which 18 year old students have learned three or four languages. I invite the new Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, to come to the House to outline his vision for Gaeilge. What does he intend to do to change things? I am not looking for a debate right now. I know he is a new Minister. I would like him to make a statement outlining his vision for education in general. The bishops have led the way by issuing a statement of their vision for education. It is time for the Government to lead the way by setting out its vision. We need to examine what is working well in Irish language teaching. We need to focus on approaches like the tumoideachais model, which is a winner.
Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We will conclude with a brief contribution from Senator Norris.
David Norris (Independent)
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I appreciate the Chair's decision to allow me to speak. I congratulate the former Senator, Deputy Mansergh, on being appointed as a Minister of State. The portfolio that has been allocated to him may appear to have been downgraded, but it is up to him to make it clear that is not the case. Perhaps he could do that by coming to this House at an early date to discuss some of the motions on the Order Paper, such as No. 4, which relates to the Abbey Theatre. The redevelopment of the theatre has been held up for a long time by the peculiar selfishness and greed of certain developers and the pusillanimous attitude of the central authorities in not dealing with and confronting the problem. There was a legal issue at stake, but it has apparently been resolved. The possibility that the Abbey Theatre, which is a national cultural institution, could be moved to the north end of O'Connell Street, which everybody agrees is the best place for it, is starting to open up again. The authorities gave up on that prospect too soon. I suggest that the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, should come to the House.
David Norris (Independent)
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His appointment as Minister of State with responsibility for the arts is an interesting one. While it may appear that the position has been downgraded, I do not believe that is the case. This responsibility has been given to an active person who has been a senior advisor to many Taoisigh and carries a great deal of weight at Government level.
While I share Senator Donohoe's concerns about the effect of certain works on St. Stephen's Green, we should look at the matter in a positive way. We should ask the Minister for Transport to come to the House to discuss this issue. Perhaps we will get an opportunity to do so in the context of the final section of the transport Bill. International practice has shown that it is quite possible to take up mature trees, tub them, maintain them and eventually replace them. We need a commitment that St. Stephen's Green, which is loved by Irish people, will be restored as it is.
I will conclude by speaking about the metro stations. I feel strongly that we are in danger of doing the usual Irish thing of spoiling the ship for a hap'orth of tar. The Dublin Port tunnel has been a considerable success in diverting articulated trucks away from the city centre. What have we done with it? We are not proud of it. We are ashamed of it. We have left it there in a hobbledehoy fashion. As I said in a letter to the newspapers, it looks like a bit of an old hoover that landed from outer space. If we were to spend approximately €150,000 to dress it up properly, we could make a statement about how proud we are of it. Let us ensure that we will not have horrible, crude, exposed concrete in the metro stations. Let us use artefacts from the National Museum in recessed glass cases, like they do in the Louvre métro station in Paris. For God's sake, let us spend a little bit extra and be proud of our culture and city.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to clarify again that Private Members' business will be taken from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. today. I want to say comhghairdeas to Seanadóir Mark Daly and Mr. Des Bishop for what they have been doing concerning the Irish language. Mr. Bishop's presence at the committee this morning was very uplifting for the language. I can only agree with the views of various Senators as to what Mr. Bishop has contributed so far. I also include our new Taoiseach in this regard because he has also lifted the language to a new plane. He has got the plain people of Ireland interested in the language again because he is a rural representative and a man of the people. The public are extremely impressed by his contribution to the Irish language so far.
Over the past 50 years, the situation has never looked better for the Irish language than it does now, as so many people are taking our language seriously. I congratulate everyone concerned. Down through the years, many eminent Senators have made an immeasurable contribution to the language, including Senators Ó Murchú and O'Toole in the current Seanad. In response to Senator Fitzgerald's request, I will allow an all-day debate on the Irish language with the new Minister. In fairness, previous Seanaid always held a major debate on the Irish language once a year. We have not had such a debate in this Seanad but I will try to arrange one before the summer recess.
As regards the plight of the unfortunate Burmese people, hopefully the all-party motion will be on the Order Paper tomorrow. The Minister for Foreign Affairs will be in the House from 3.45 p.m. to 4.45 p.m. for statements next Tuesday.
I congratulate all the newly appointed Ministers of State. I thank the former Ministers of State, Deputies Browne, Gallagher and Michael Ahern who have been most helpful in assisting this House in its deliberations during Private Members' time, on statements and in dealing with legislation. They have been of great assistance to the affairs of this House. They are great colleagues and I look forward to working with them in committees, in their roles as chairpersons, vice-chairpersons or in whatever way the Taoiseach may see fit to use the enormous experience they have gained over the past ten to 15 years in their ministerial portfolios.
I congratulate the new Ministers of State, Deputy John Moloney, who is a great friend, Deputy Peter Power who has been elevated to the Foreign Affairs portfolio, and Deputy Curran who has been appointed as Minister of State with responsibility for tackling drug abuse, which is a major task. I wish them well. Two former Members of this House, Deputies Finneran and Mansergh, were elevated yesterday as Ministers of State. On my first day as Leader back in 1997, I proposed the then Senator Finneran as spokesperson on Finance. I wish him well in his new role. He has vast experience, particularly in the area of local government. Over the past 25 years, Deputy Mansergh has worked closely with three former Taoisigh. He was offered the position of special advisor by another Taoiseach but declined to accept it. He has been held in high regard by all Taoisigh over the past quarter of a century. He is an eminent person who I am sure will make an immeasurable contribution to his new Department and in particular the arts portfolio. He is well respected and highly regarded in the areas of heritage and the arts.
I agree with Senator Norris that we would all love to the see the new Abbey Theatre on the Parnell Street end of O'Connell Street. Senator Norris has been championing that part of the city centre, along with the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern. Many of us who have an interest in that area would like to see the Abbey Theatre being relocated there, in proximity to Belvedere College, the Mater Hospital and Croke Park. It would be lovely to see the national theatre being situated there. Within the next two weeks, I hope the Minister will attend the House to debate what opportunities there may be in this regard.
Senator Hannigan and others expressed their views on the ESRI report, which is very uplifting. The report has come at an opportune time for the Seanad because tonight we will have statements on economic achievements from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. Senators will be able to give the Minister the benefit of their advice and experience, as well as debating how they wish to see the country progressing in future. Today's ESRI report holds out bouquets for former Ministers for Finance, including in particular former Deputy Charlie McCreevy, the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, and our present Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen. They have presided over the Finance portfolio during the past ten years. The ESRI report must be a great bonus as it shows that the fundamentals are sound in Ireland, despite the global economic downturn. We will all be able to contribute to the debate on the Fine Gael motion later today.
Senators Doherty, Donohoe, de Búrca, Regan and Hanafin all called for an urgent debate on agriculture and clarification of the Lisbon treaty in particular. Clarification is urgently needed in that regard. I am pleased to inform the House that this debate will take place at 11.45 a.m. next Wednesday morning. All Senators should note that in their diaries. While not wishing to pre-empt the issue, I understood that one could not put a poster on a pole without identifying the individual, group or political party involved. The Referendum Commission has a duty to look into this matter. On the way from Mullingar to Dublin, I saw two types of "No" poster with no names on them. I stand open to correction, but I understood that this is illegal. I will be asking my secretariat today to seek clarification from the Referendum Commission and I will inform the House of the outcome tomorrow morning.
Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, when the Leader is seeking that clarification can he also ascertain whether or not the "Yes" side's posters, erected before the writ for the referendum was moved, are also illegal? I want that clarified.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Donohoe, Callely and Norris all called for a debate on Transport 21, particularly concerning future developments and the continued large-scale investment which is driving the economy at present. I will ask the Minister for Transport to attend the House for such debate as soon as possible and definitely before the summer recess.
Senators Frances Fitzgerald, Maria Corrigan and Déirdre de Búrca called for a special debate on women in politics, which is opportune. I congratulate my colleague from County Meath, the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Mary Wallace, on her re-appointment as Minister of State yesterday. She is a neighbour and colleague of Senator Hannigan and of mine.
We want to encourage as many women as possible to get involved in politics, especially young ladies, but it is not that easy because the electorate decides who is elected. In the 2002 general election there were seven candidates in County Westmeath; four were ladies and three were men. However, the three men were elected which shows it is entirely up to the electorate. Those of us working in the political system should encourage as many ladies as possible to get involved. It is a tough, hard life, it is not easy and it may not be a very attractive option.
I thank all those ladies who have made such a great contribution to politics, including all the great standard bearers from Countess Markievicz and Ms Maud Gonne to Ms Máire Geoghegan-Quinn and Deputy Mary Harney. We have had tremendous women involved in Irish politics.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Including all the new female Senators here.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Of course, the first ever female Fianna Fáil Tánaiste was appointed last week by the Taoiseach, which is another cause for celebration for women, especially on the Fianna Fáil side of the House.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should not forget the woman in his own constituency.
Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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My constituency colleague has made an immeasurable contribution for more than 20 years. She was the deputy leader of our party for a considerable time too. I have no difficulty with this debate taking place.
Senator Maria Corrigan requested the timeframe for the disability legislation. I understand that the earliest possible timeframe to advance this legislation is by the end of 2008. I will update the Senator on progress during the year.
Senator Feargal Quinn called for a debate on the avian flu epidemic and especially on the consequences for the people most exposed. This is worthwhile and I will see if this is possible over the next two or three weeks.
Senator Ivor Callely called for a debate on water safety and the dangers of water sports equipment such as jet skis. Young people have the opportunity to use such equipment now because of the buoyancy in the economy. I will seek further information from the relevant Minister. The noise Bill is related legislation and is due to be published before the end of 2008. As a Senator from the lakes district, I know of the problems that can arise. It is possible there is an accident or tragedy waiting to happen on some of our lakes, especially this month of May, the month of the mayfly. The lakes are a significant tourist attraction especially Lough Derravaragh, Lough Sheelin, Lough Glore and Lough Ennell near Mullingar in the midlands. These lakes represent a significant national resource. I visited Killaloe, County Clare to see the location of the world water skiing championships many years ago. It is best that this activity is availed of in a controlled way. Participants should form a local club in the same way angling clubs have done. Once local people are in charge, everything can be regulated with the relevant authorities and everyone can work together. I have no difficulty with a debate on this matter later in the year.
Senators Michael McCarthy and Cecilia Keaveney called for the new Minister with responsibility for the marine to come to the House to provide an update on the marine sector and hear the views of Senators on the challenges facing the industry.