John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I know the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has been in the Chamber all afternoon. It is Easter week which explains the absence of other Ministers. I echo Senator McFadden's comments on the absence of Ministers from the Department of Education and Science. Two weeks ago I raised an education matter on the Adjournment but no Minister from the Department attended the House to respond. While I have no doubt the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will give a good answer to my Adjournment matter tonight, it would be more beneficial if a Minister from the Department of Education and Science were present.

My matter concerns my former school, the Good Counsel College in New Ross, County Wexford. I raised the matter two weeks ago in the context of the ongoing discussions for the past ten years on the amalgamation of secondary schools in the New Ross town area. Five years ago, a report by Dr. Tom McCarthy recommended three post-primary schools to be sufficient for the town. While I believe four would be a more realistic option, for the past five years no agreement has been reached among the management of the existing five schools on the amalgamation process needed to be put in place. This has resulted in capital expenditure for school buildings being frozen. Dr. McCarthy's report concluded that of the three schools for the town, one should be all-boys, one all-girls and one co-educational, each with 750 students. The Good Counsel College already fits these criteria as it is an all-boys school with in excess of 750 students.

Some 20 years ago, the Augustinian order showed great foresight in building a new campus on the then outskirts of the town. The order has added to the campus over the years with the support of the Department of Education and Science. It has engaged with public private partnerships for the provision of all-weather sports facilities. In conjunction with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism and New Ross Town Council, the new municipal swimming pool will be located on college grounds. Some years ago the college was approved for a summer works scheme project. However, it could not carry them out because of the bar on capital expenditure due to the failure of agreement for schools amalgamation. I am looking for a conclusion to this farce.

There are ongoing safety problems with the Good Counsel College buildings. The floor of the gymnasium, built only ten years ago, needs to be replaced, yet the college's management has been informed it will not receive funding for such remedial work. Part of the floor in the art room, built just 20 years ago, collapsed and because they could not get capital funding from the Department of Education and Science, the Augustinians, of whom only four or five are left, had to pay for the necessary repair out of their own house funds in New Ross.

That cannot be allowed to continue as Good Counsel has been to the forefront of education in the town for more than 100 years. It is one of the few schools in New Ross which has introduced a curriculum to meet the needs of the Traveller community in the town and members of many different ethnic backgrounds are catered for within the existing school. Will the Minister indicate when we will get a resolution to the problem and when this capital funding will be forthcoming for the necessary projects which need to be carried out?

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Senator for raising this matter, which he brought up in a more general vein on 4 March last. The Minister of State, Deputy Pat The Cope Gallagher, deputised for the Minister for Education and Science on that day and subsequently informed her of the views enunciated by Senator Phelan in this matter. The Minister of State outlined the background in detail of proposals to rationalise post-primary provision in New Ross and, as the Senator will be well aware of this, it is not my intention to repeat the full extent of this detail other than what is necessary for the record.

There are five post-primary providers in New Ross and all are seeking major capital investment. As a result of this and declining enrolments, the Department of Education and Science appointed a facilitator, Dr. Tom McCarthy, to review infrastructural provision in the area, including that at primary level. In his report, Dr. McCarthy recommended a reduction at post-primary level to three schools, each catering for 720 pupils which would provide accommodation and facilities for 2,100 pupils overall. The schools were to comprise one single-sex girls' school, one single-sex boys' school and one co-educational school.

Subsequently the Department prepared a discussion paper for the trustees of both the primary and post-primary schools to progress the matter. This step was taken because of demographic changes since Dr. McCarthy's report. The purpose of the paper was to put forward the Department's view on the extent of provision needed for New Ross, together with how best this could be met.

The key recommendation at post-primary level was that the five post-primary schools should be rationalised to provide three schools, each catering for 500 mainstream pupils or 1,500 pupils overall. This reflected the current and proposed population for the area, housing developments etc., which were discussed with the local authorities. It also reflected that some of the schools were enrolling pupils from outside the catchment area.

The demographics quoted by Senator Phelan when he last raised this matter suggests there are currently between 7,000 and 8,000 people in New Ross town with some 2,100 post-primary school pupils. Normally, a population of 8,000 persons would yield a post-primary pupil output of some 680 pupils, which would be sufficient for one post-primary school. I accept the Senator was probably talking about the town itself and that the appropriate hinterland demographics would need to be factored in.

Nonetheless, in a case where 2,100 pupils are not evenly distributed over five schools, difficulties are inevitable not alone in running and maintaining buildings but also in terms of the type and extent of curriculum that can be delivered in the smaller schools. These are the issues which the Department wants to see tackled for the purpose of providing the town with the requisite number of strong and viable schools for the future with top class accommodation. In the circumstances, I am glad of Senator Phelan's comment here on 4 March last that "everybody in the town and its schools accepts changes must be made and there is a strong case for amalgamation."

This being the case, the Department too is disappointed progress has not been made. It has no vested interest in seeing pupils in unsatisfactory accommodation but it is important for the Senator to understand it is matter for the trustees of the schools involved to take this forward in their own school communities, and this is what they are doing.

The Department accepts change is never easy to accept or achieve and it will support the trustees in any way it can to move the process forward. The Department also accepts the position in New Ross is unique, which contributes to the complexity of the issues required to be resolved. These arise chiefly because there are two different dioceses, two different parishes and two different local authority areas of functionality involved.

With regard to comments made by the Senator on the maintenance of the existing buildings, the Department provides funding through capitation grants to post-primary schools for the day to day running of schools, including maintenance. The budget included significant improvements at second level for 2008 by increasing capitation by €15 to €331 per student per annum, while the support services grant will increase by €5 to €117 per annum. In addition, an extra €10 per student will be given to the voluntary schools to continue the process towards equalisation of funding measures for that sector.

Voluntary schools will, therefore, get €535 per student, with a typical 500-student school getting €267,500 in 2008 to meet its day to day costs outside of teacher pay, which is of course also covered by the Department.

In 2006, the Department gave more than €123,000 to the Good Counsel College to address external works over which there were health and safety concerns. Generally, the Senator will appreciate, where major capital investment is required across a number of schools in the same area, the Department has an obligation to critically examine what is being asked for and to satisfy itself that expenditure is fully justified and represents value for money not just in terms of bricks and mortar but in educational terms.

I thank the Senator again for raising this matter and assure him that once there is an outcome to discussions among the trustees, which the Department will support to the best of its ability, moves can be made to consider the extent of large scale capital investment which can be made in the New Ross area.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister for his response, although he is only reading what he has been given by officials. We have no officials from the Department here either. This goes back to my previous statement regarding not having a Minister from the relevant Department here. On 4 March I clearly referred to the population of the town as being 7,000 or 8,000 and there is approximately 30,000 in the catchment area of New Ross. That was ignored in the first part of the Minister's response.

There is also a significant discrepancy in the figures read out in the answer. The Minister stated capitation was €535 per pupil, with a typical 500-student school getting €267,500 in 2008. The figures for Good Counsel were less than half of that from two years ago.

My central point is that even going on the McCarthy report proposals, the Good Counsel College is the newest school in terms of its building in New Ross and it is obvious to everyone concerned that whatever amalgamation takes place, the campus of Good Counsel will be used in that amalgamation. It already meets the criteria. As a consequence, surely the Department should invest money to ensure the existing infrastructure does not dwindle away in the next few years. For ten years we have been speaking of amalgamation and for five years there has been direct consultation with the trustees of the different schools, with no agreement.

I understand the Minister's comments in his response but it is not good enough. We need leadership from the Department of Education and Science to resolve this issue as it will clearly not be resolved by the people on the ground.

John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is unfortunate and regrettable that I am not in a position to comment. I am sure the comments made by Senator John Paul Phelan are valid, and he is correct in pointing out there are no officials from the relevant Department here — although there are officials here — which is not satisfactory. They could have had an opportunity to convey the Senator's sentiments. I hope the Acting Chairman might, from his position, remind the Minister of this but I will tell the Minister I was in here and issues were raised of major concern to Senators. I hope they will be addressed.

John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister.