Seanad debates
Wednesday, 22 June 2005
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Order of Business is No. 1, the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse (Amendment) Bill 2005 — Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business until 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; No. 2, Disability Bill 2004 — Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stage, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. until 5 p.m.; and No. 12, motion No. 22, to be taken at 5 p.m. until 7 p.m. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
An international report on migrant workers published yesterday shows the benefits of migration not only to the host country but also to the workers themselves in being able to travel around the world to take up opportunities. Will the Leader arrange to have a debate on the green card before the end of the session?
We are happy to welcome people to Ireland to do work we will not do but we treat them appallingly when they try to leave to visit their own countries for two or three weeks. The other week I dealt with a case in my constituency involving a Romanian couple who have been here since 2003. They have three young children, one of whom was born here, while the other two were born in Romania. The couple made a simple request to leave Ireland for a two week visit to Romania to allow their children's grandparents to see their new grandchild. They were recently told by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that they may leave the country with their Irish child but must leave their Romanian children, aged six and nine years, here.
We need to get our heads around the fortress Ireland mentality. Officials of the Department, who can decide at the stroke of a pen who may come here, are behaving like demi-gods. The family in question is hard working and in this country legitimately. People who we want to come here and work are being told when they can enter and leave the country. A separate Department, with no relationship to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, should deal specifically with the issue of visas.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Refugee control and asylum seekers who enter the country are a separate issue. The issue I raise concerns people with green cards whom we want in Ireland working hard and contributing to the country. They are being treated in a shameful manner. I apologise for bringing a constituency case to the attention of the House but it illustrates countless thousands of cases which are a matter of concern to both sides of the House.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is no doubt that cases such as that raised by Senator Brian Hayes are widespread. An inconsistent approach is taken to those who enter and leave the State. I recently received representations from a person running a business in Munster concerning an employee from a non-EU country who was here officially and legally. When the employee in question experienced a problem with his visa, he was informed by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that he must leave the country but the matter would be sorted out on his return. However, on his return he was stopped at Shannon Airport. If the business person in question had not intervened with senior officials in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the employee would not have been allowed back into the country, yet the reason he left in the first instance was to fulfil some stupid departmental rule. There is no logic to some of these cases. Senator Brian Hayes has raised an important matter.
Yesterday, I referred to the money which was not spent by the Department of Education and Science. Over the course of the day, I received at least four proposals from various organisations involved in education outlining how they could usefully spend the money. One such proposal was made by Educate Together, an organisation with up to 50 schools around the country, which is trying to run a national office.
As a former Minister for Education, the Leader is aware that the Department requires organisations, such as Gaelscoileanna, Educate Together, the Catholic Church, the Church of Ireland, etc., to have management structures in place before departmental support is provided. Why does Educate Together not receive a fair level of support? Why is the Department returning money when it is needed by this organisation, which does a job on behalf of the Department?
The Leader knows that if the Department is making changes, it must deal with the different management structures. For those working in the management structures, it is a full-time job and people should be employed on a full-time basis in them. These people are acting officially and legally. We should propose to the Minister for Education and Science that groups such as Educate Together would get an appropriate amount relative to their size to operate their management structure.
In the last two days, there has been extraordinarily negative publicity about the Office of Public Works. We should have a debate on the report of the Committee of Public Accounts because the OPW has done fine work for us in Leinster House 2000, Government Buildings, Dublin Castle and numerous other places around the country. The Office of Public Works managed to secure 115 buildings to deal with refugees and asylum seekers and only got five wrong — it is not even clear by how much — but it is being absolutely vilified in the media. It does not do us any good. If the OPW does something wrong, we should deal with it, but we should balance that with the things it does right. It has done a great job in recent years and these public servants are being unfairly vilified for cheap headlines.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I would be the first to defend public servants but those of us who live in Cork and who must put up with the appalling structure that is our Government Buildings on Sullivan's Quay do not have a high opinion of the Office of Public Works. It imposed that building on the city contrary to the advice of everyone on Cork City Council at the time, including the then city manager. It is probably the ugliest and most intrusive building in Cork and it is no credit to the Office of Public Works. It does many other things well but it appears to have two sides — the architecturally sensitive side that does a lot of wonderful conservation work and another side which goes in for Stalinist Soviet socialist realism and block building which is no credit to its architects.
I was at a recent meeting of a voluntary organisation where someone raised a problem she said she had never encountered before — that she was meeting homeless people on the streets of Cork who could not speak English. They are recent immigrants from the accession states who came here in the belief they would get work but who ended up with no work or the work did not last long. As a result of the provision that they must have been in the country for at least two years before they are eligible for benefits; they have no right to any welfare so they end up in a state of indigence that defies description.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As far as I remember, they must be here for two years. It is worse than what would happen to an illegal Irish emigrant in the United States. They are entitled to nothing and end up sleeping on the streets in abject poverty.
We heard what Senator Brian Hayes has just said about the contribution immigrants make but we should look at the daft decisions the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform makes. I know of a senior researcher from outside the EU recruited to this country to head up a high powered, multi-million euro science foundation project who was told that he could come here but his spouse and children could only join him six months later because that is the rule.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Department made the huge concession of agreeing on six months for this man's spouse. This man is a world class researcher. Fortunately he agreed to put up with this nonsense. That is the way our Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform deals with people.
I raised yesterday the issue of the 250 missing migrant children. If those children were Irish, the country would be in a state of outrage. They arrived here and became our responsibility, no matter what anyone says, and they have now gone missing. When we try to raise the issue, we get inflammatory speeches about asylum seekers from the Minister responsible. This creates a climate in which it is impossible to have a serious debate on immigration.
A major announcement about hospital capital funding will be made today. Will someone confirm that with each capital provision regarding staffing and equipment will be included and that we avoid yet another saga of buildings lying empty for years? Building hospitals without staff is nonsense and it is time the Department of Finance and the Department of Health and Children got their acts together and agreed that when a building is erected, there should be a commitment to staffing and equipment for it.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This House has always been to the fore on human rights and civil liberties issues. We should be particularly vigilant when it comes to the rights and difficulties of our own citizens in foreign jurisdictions. I have raised the case in the House before of a young Tipperary man, a champion jockey, Christy McGrath, who is serving a long term of imprisonment for a crime of which he says he is innocent. There is growing evidence to support his case and it is particularly significant that 50 MPs now support him. Included in that number is John McDonald, MP, of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body. He has been proactive, so much so that he is coming to Carrick-on-Suir on Sunday and on Monday morning to Buswells Hotel in Dublin.
If we are getting such support from political parties in Britain, we should be more proactive in our support for Christy McGrath. It is not right that a distinguished young man like him, who has such an impeccable record and who has worked very hard in his career, is left isolated in a British prison. I appeal strongly on his behalf that he does not spend a day longer in prison than is necessary. All he is asking is the opportunity to appeal his case in court to show how he has been wronged.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support Senator Ó Murchú and compliment him on his tenacity on the issue. We all received documentation on the issue recently and it made for grim reading about the British system of justice.
We recently attended a meeting with a deputation from the Catholic church that does tremendous work with prisoners abroad. It expressed to us the inadequacy of the assistance it is getting from the State for what it is trying to do, particularly with prisoners in Britain and South and Central America where significant funding is required to assist them. I was shocked when one of the clerics stated that there are such difficulties in repatriating Irish prisoners from England that members of the IRA would be repatriated more quickly.
Irish Travellers who go to England are finding particular difficulties with regard to their ethnic background because the British justice system has no appreciation of their ethnicity. As well as Christy McGrath, we should remember the many other prisoners who have been forgotten by this country, usually those who emigrate as a result of social and family breakdown. They are falling between the cracks.
As a member of the Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, I am concerned about the energy issue. It is shocking that the Irish consumer who saw electricity prices rise by 29% since 2003 may be faced with an increase of up to 36% in the near future because of the ESB statement on the cost of fossil fuels. This is a result of the war in Iraq and the scarcity of oil. The Minister cannot be criticised on this issue because most Ministers are fireproofed by regulators, in this case the energy regulator. So far when a percentage increase was sought, the energy regulator approved it. I contrast this with ComReg which held off indefinitely when An Post sought an increase in the price of a postage stamp. Last year the ESB turned over a profit of €250 million. With regards to the validity of the claim and the changes the ESB made within its structure, it still cannot be given carte blanche on this matter. The consumer will suffer another crippling increase later this year. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, must come to the House to debate the energy issue.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support the brave efforts of my colleague, Senator Ó Murchú in the case ofChristy McGrath. Senator Finucane referred to the meeting of the sub-committee on human rights last week. I compliment the chairman of the sub-committee, Senator Bradford, on his initiative in pursuing one matter on the committee's priority programme, namely the status of Irish prisoners overseas. I was appalled at the long list of violations in the presentation to the sub-committee. Senator O'Toole, a senior trade unionist, will be surprised to learn that many of the recommendations agreed under Sustaining Progress in 2002 have not been implemented. This was not exclusively a Government issue, but the social partners on the status and human rights of Irish prisoners overseas. There is a long catalogue of violations, which four years on have not yet been resolved.
The sub-committee, under Senator Bradford, intends to call in the relevant Departments to ask why they have not implemented these recommendations. We are talking in the same vein as Senator Ó Murchú about Christy McGrath's situation. As Senator Finucane has pointed out some families are not only suffering emotionally but also financially because they do not have the resources to regularly see their sons, daughters, brothers or sisters who are in jails throughout the world. Senator Ó Murchú's intervention in this serious issue is timely. One can only support him in this issue.
The Leader should consider a debate on immigration reform legislation in the autumn. In reply to Senator Ryan's comments, this country has been extraordinarily generous following the EU enlargement process. Ireland and the United Kingdom are the only member states that have opened their borders to their fellow EU citizens from the eastern European new member states who are seeking work. Inevitably, there had to be qualifying conditions which are in place to ensure those who enter the country are not a burden on the State. That happens in every other country. For one year, a person is not entitled to benefits.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Romania is not a member of the European Union. In the context of spouses and the unification of families, as the Leader will inform the House, last week on our visit to America we discovered it takes up to 15 years for families to be reunified.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Mooney has sought a debate on the issue.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is an important issue and I ask the Leader to have a debate on immigration policy to which the House can make a valuable contribution.
Mary Henry (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I do not believe Senator Brian Hayes or any other Member should apologise for bringing up individual cases regarding visa problems. Several times I have brought to the House the repeated problems I have with non-EU doctors, desperately needed by the health service, experiencing terrible trouble with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding their visas. Another area where there have been visa problems is at Trinity College, Dublin. In one instance a lecturer at the college returned home to St. Petersburg for the summer and was not allowed back into Ireland until Christmas the following year.
Will the Leader ask the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, to come to the House to discuss the issue of the Office of Public Works? There is a need for more lateral thinking regarding some of the office's properties. For example, there has been a great deal of criticism about the residences it bought for refugees, which were then not used due to objections from people living in the local areas involved. On the television news last night, I saw that the Jesuits' institution, Brock House on Nutley Lane, was one of these buildings. This is situated across the road from St. Vincent's Hospital which has an appalling problem regarding bed shortages. Some lateral thinking might allow the Department of Health and Children to make use of this excellent premises. I was there several times and it is a first-class building. As the Office of Public Works could not get permission for it to be used for refugees, it can be used in another capacity.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is over a year and a half since the constituency boundaries commission delivered its report on changes to constituency boundaries but we are still waiting for legislation in this regard. Will the Leader update us as to when the Electoral (Amendment) Bill will be introduced to the House? We were promised it would be introduced this session.
Increasing numbers of people are taking up walking and jogging on our country roads as a pastime. Up to 80% of those are responsible and wear reflective clothing, etc.
Timmy DooleyJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
However, a small percentage do not use any type of reflective armbands or clothing. Will the Leader invite the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to debate the introduction of legislation making it an offence for pedestrians to use our country roads without proper reflective armbands?
There is a serious situation with regard to accidents involving pedestrians. The poor motorist is blamed for such accidents. Senator O'Toole claimed that approximately €500 million was handed back by the Department of Education and Science last year. A good area to start on such a campaign is in the schools. Free reflective armbands should be given to all our schoolchildren. A former Taoiseach is still remembered for the introduction of free toothbrushes and toothpaste for schoolchildren.
Camillus Glynn
Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is important that we respond as quickly as possible to Senator Bannon's call for the introduction of the electoral Bill. He wants to get the full licence to travel to Westmeath as quickly as possible.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Bannon does not need an armband.
Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I fully support what was said by Senator Ó Murchú and others concerning the case of Christy McGrath. I commend Senator Ó Murchú on bringing this matter to our attention on several occasions. From the body of evidence made available to the sub-committee, which is admittedly working from a distance, it appears that Mr. McGrath has a compelling case to have the issue reviewed. I hope it will be reviewed as quickly as possible and the Minister for Foreign Affairs will use his good offices to pursue the case.
Today the EU Commission is expected to announce its proposals for the future for the sugar industry. The indications are that the cuts being proposed from a production and price point of view will decimate the Irish sugar industry. Thousands of growers and workers in rural communities are concerned about the situation. It is imperative that the Government, through the offices of the Minister for Agriculture and Food and the Taoiseach, fight and resist this set of proposals. We must ensure the sugar industry in Ireland is retained. The proposals emanating from Brussels are extremely negative and must be resisted by the House and the Government.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I join with colleagues in raising the issue of visas and work permits. Some months ago I raised on the Adjournment the case of a Canadian citizen living in my constituency who was married to a British citizen. She was told her visa would not be renewed. The visa was subsequently renewed but restrictions were imposed under which she was not allowed to carry out her work as a visually impaired artist. This highlights an anomaly in the system. The visa section is very difficult to contact and when one does get through any information is drip-fed. Eventually I put it to the staff there that if an Irish citizen living in the UK were treated in this way we would be up in arms and that I would see to it that this House made its feelings known on the issue. The visa was issued in the end but it is an unacceptable situation and we need a debate in this House to point up the anomalies in the process. Politicians such as ourselves should not have to tackle a problem that should be dealt with fairly and equitably by officials.
11:00 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senators Brian Hayes and Henry said nobody should have to apologise for raising particular immigration cases. My heart is broken with stories about immigration, visas and asylum seekers. No matter what one does one cannot keep up with the flood of injustices which come to light each day by telephone, letter and e-mail. There seem to be inconsistent rules such as in the case of the Romanian couple to whom Senator Brian Hayes referred who are allowed to bring their baby to Romania but must leave their other two children. Furthermore nobody knows if they will be allowed to return. I am aware of the case of a professional Indian mathematician of a calibre not available in Ireland who wants his wife to come over. She must wait 12 months before she will be admitted. I do not understand it. The owner of the firm he works for has given details of his salary and qualifications so it is a mystery why his wife cannot be allowed in. It is amazing.
I agree that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, even with the most outstanding Minister and officials, is not the right Department to deal with immigration. One cannot even get through to the appropriate section. It is most frustrating that people who do good work for good firms cannot be reunited with their families. The man to whom I refer will now return to India so his firm is denied the services of a fine worker and cannot replace him. I cannot make a breakthrough in the case and I have never in public life had such myriad difficulties to overcome.
The issue most damaging from a human rights perspective, and I will talk to Senator Bradford about this, is that of asylum seekers who have been here for four years or more and, having integrated into their community, are told to leave. A separate Department should deal with immigration and asylum seekers because the situation is not improving. Under freedom of information we obtained details of what barristers and solicitors earned "toiling", and I use the word advisedly, on behalf of asylum seekers. They earned huge money but there is no transparency on why people were turned down or why they were considered to be here illegally. There is no information on whether there were extenuating circumstances in any particular case or what steps were taken to identify such circumstances, such as whether they had children in schools or whether there were personal references that might have a bearing on the situation.
It is a mysterious system absorbing large amounts of public money for which there is no clear explanation. Of all the issues I have dealt with it is the one that preys most on the mind because one sees people going back to terrible conditions in, for example, Lagos where there might be five people in one bed, no jobs and no luxuries of any kind. It would cost very little to allow these people to work here in cases where we cannot otherwise get workers. Every day I try to clear three such cases and by the end of the day I have three more cases. I cannot get on top of it. Senator O'Toole said there was no logic to the system and I agree. Whether in respect of visas or immigration a type of Alice in Wonderland logic applies. There is no trail of events that one can follow. I agree a serious debate on immigration is required but there is so much to cover one cannot say where it would begin and end.
I agree that Educate Together is a fine organisation which is at a crossroads and needs proper developmental funding. I have been in touch with the Minister on the matter. The Senator defended the Office of Public Works and we will ask Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, to come to the House, although time is limited. Senator Ryan mentioned the ugliest building in Cork but I agree with Senator O'Toole that the OPW has done much good work in the State.
Senator Bannon will know with regard to the situation in Mullingar that capital funding is available but not current funding so the beautiful big buildings, being unoccupied, are only shells. I understand when the Tánaiste makes her statement on capital funding she will also address the need for current funding.
Senator Ó Murchú raised the issue of Christy McGrath on previous occasions and I am sure he is sponsoring the visit of John McDonald, MP, to Carrick-on-Suir on Sunday and to Buswells Hotel the following morning. I agree that the case should be taken up with vigour.
Senator Finucane raised the issue of Irish Travellers getting repatriated to Ireland and violations of human rights with regard to prisoners abroad. He also raised the energy crisis. We are now faced with a price rise of 36% and he asked if the Minister would come here to talk about that.
Senator Henry frequently raises the difficulties medical personnel and academics have getting into the country and, if they leave for a period, being allowed back again. This echoes what we discussed in Washington last week. I felt a fraud at times because the problems there are magnified many times here. The Senator also asked whether the Department of Health and Children might use Brock House, which is near St. Vincent's Hospital and was not allowed to be used for asylum seekers, and if Minister of State, Deputy Parlon would come to the House.
I am pleased to inform Senator Bannon that it appears the Electoral (Amendment) Bill will be taken next week. I am sure he will welcome it.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will. I do not look forward to the Senator prowling the streets of Westmeath though, with or without your armband.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator will hear him before she sees him.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
He will be welcome in Westmeath. I do not know what the Deputy will say about that. I hope I will be welcome in Longford.
Senator Bradford also raised the Christy McGrath case and EU proposals for the future of the sugar industry, which do not bode well for Ireland. I will ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food if, time permitting, she will come to this House next week.
Senator Feighan also brought up visas and work permits. Every person in this room has stories they could tell about these issues.