Seanad debates

Thursday, 10 March 2005

10:30 am

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the Report on Certain Issues of Management and Administration in the Department of Health and Children Associated with the Practice of Charges for Persons in Long-Stay Care in Health Board Institutions and Related Matters, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes. The Minister is to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the end of the statements.

While I am on that point, perhaps I might say something, with the permission of the Cathaoirleach. The Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, is coming to the House to take this debate, but she is also taking the Order of Business in the Lower House. It is therefore possible that there will be a gap between the conclusion of the Order of Business in this House and her finishing the Order of Business in the Lower House. I wish to alert the Seanad to that matter and hope Members will accept that if she is in the middle of answering some point in the Lower House, she must finish it before she comes here, and that there will be nothing unprofessional if we must suspend for five or ten minutes.

No. 2 is the Health (Amendment) Bill 2005 — Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 4.30 p.m.; and No. 3, motion for earlier signature of the Health (Amendment) Bill 2005, to be taken immediately without debate on the conclusion of No. 2., if the latter is passed by the House. One cannot have an earlier signature motion if the Bill is not passed. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday was a bleak day for the Irish taxpayer. We had the publication of the report of the Committee on Public Accounts on the redress scheme. It provides a very interesting insight, given that in 2001, when the redress scheme was approved, the estimated costs were €254 million. On that occasion, the religious orders were legally "fireproofed" regarding damages, and the estimate was €128 million. The Comptroller and Auditor General now estimates the cost at €828 million, with the result that the taxpayer is liable to pay out over €700 million.

Also yesterday, the Travers report, which we will be discussing shortly, was published. It is worth bearing in mind its implications, since at this stage we do not know the quantification of costs, with estimates varying from €500 million to €2 billion, depending on what route the Government takes regarding the Statue of Limitations and so on. We may not know the full cost for another three weeks.

When it comes to policy decisions, there seems always to be a serious underestimating of the associated costs. In the middle of 2001, when medical cards were introduced for the over 70s and put on a statutory basis, the cost was underestimated by €50 million, as more than 30,000 people were eligible. Many of us who are in contact with the Department of Social and Family Affairs know it has excellent records of people in receipt of pensions. I cannot understand why the figures were not right at that time following discussions between the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Social and Family Affairs to quantify the costs.

It is worth remembering in this debate, which has emerged over the past few days, that last December the Tánaiste tried illegally to take back the money to which those elderly people in nursing homes were entitled. We all know the Supreme Court struck down that decision, leading to the current situation, whereby people have a better appreciation of what is happening. I could say a great deal more regarding the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, and his Ministers of State, but I will await the debate on the Travers report, which is to proceed shortly.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I thank the Leader for arranging statements on the Travers report first thing this morning. It is very much appreciated on this side of the House. I also believe other Members will want to participate in that debate, which I will be happy to start immediately after the Order of Business. If no other Member wants to speak, I will be happy to do so.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Start it now?

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Yes, if the Minister is not available. People want to record their views on the matter, not talk to the Minister.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That is not fair. The Senator has spoken but others might not have spoken on it.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Then we should just begin the debate and take our turn. The problem arises when people want everything.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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Is it like the ATMs?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole, without interruption.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is a little like ATMs, yes. One lines up and does one's business.

The issue of suicide, the reasons for it and the way we should address the problem have been discussed in the House on many occasions but it is a subject on which we have very little in terms of facts. I would like to have a further discussion on the problem, particularly the connection between suicide and alcohol consumption. I came across some figures during the week which will be of major help in coming to some understanding of the problem of suicide. More than 80% of suicide victims had consumed alcohol a short time previous to their suicide. More important, and this is a frightening figure which nobody can ignore, is that suicides have increased by 43% over the past 12 to 15 years during which time the consumption of alcohol increased by 42% to 43%. That is a clear connection about which we should be concerned. Recognising that alcohol has both a depressive and a uninhibiting impact on personalities, creating impulsive behaviour, this is an issue of which I was not aware the last time we discussed the consumption of alcohol. Colleagues on both sides of the House have often asked whether there is any explanation for the increase in suicides. This is a clear connection which should be recorded in a debate here. I am grateful to the Irish National Alliance for Action on Alcohol, which made those figures available during the course of the week. We could have a discussion on this matter and get a view from the Government.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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I do not know the views of other Members of the House but if I was the chief executive of a multinational company thinking about investing in Ireland and was presented with a Minister who said he did not ask questions about the possible debt of €2 billion in his Department because nobody told him about it——

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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We will have the debate in the afternoon.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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——I would have my doubts about the quality of the governance of a country where the Minister responsible for attracting foreign investment only looked after the areas the people he was responsible for told him about.

A Senator:

Other Ministers did nothing.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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On No. 1 on today's Order Paper, it emerged on "Morning Ireland" earlier that the mysterious missing file is no longer missing and the Minister for Foreign Affairs said he had no doubt that the material would be——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is a matter for the forthcoming debate.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Minister for Foreign Affairs said this material would be made available to the Oireachtas. If it is available can we have it before the debate? Why should we have to wait until after the debate to have what we are now told is available? Will the Leader ask the Department of Health and Children to make copies of that material available? We will be happy to have photocopies since apparently what exists is a photocopy. Mr. Travers did not see this file so it would be a help to us all to have it.

On the general area of public administration, will the Leader make time available for an updated debate on the proposed EU services directive, which is in grave danger of causing serious damage to the rights of workers in this State? I was glad to see Commissioner McCreevy adopt what he would describe as a left wing "pinko" position on the services directive for which we have reason to be grateful but this is a potentially threatening directive for many workers in this State and in Europe generally and I ask for a debate on it. This House aspires to be one in which European issues are debated and this directive appears to be very relevant.

While we are doing that we might talk about EU competition policy. The EU appears to have a competition policy which precludes state aid in such a way that it prevents investment taking place anywhere in the EU, which is what will happen if the policy it pursued with Intel is continued. It will not go somewhere else in the EU; it will go outside the EU. A competition policy which precludes investment within the EU is not a competition policy. It is a disincentive.

Michael Brennan (Progressive Democrats)
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Some 24 stretches of road have been branded dangerous by a European report published yesterday. The National Roads Authority is not making people aware of the designation of those roads. There are no accident blackspot warning signs or special speed restrictions on them and I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government into the House to outline the way this problem will be dealt with in the interests of road safety. In Limerick, applications in respect of the N69 were made to the Department and the National Roads Authority for special speed limit restrictions on that road but were turned down on numerous occasions. Now that responsibility for the speed limit reviews for these roads is back with the local authorities, I ask the Minister to deal with this issue urgently in the interests of road safety.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Most Senators and indeed the general public in both the midlands and the west encounter the roads to hell, as described in a number of publications yesterday. A recent survey by the Automobile Association highlighted a significant number of dangerous roads throughout the country. Most of them are in the midlands, particularly the N55 between Athlone and Cavan and the N52 between Kinnegad and Tyrrellspass. The worst stretch of road is listed as the one between Edgeworthstown and Armagh.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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A call has been made already for a debate during which the Senator can go into detail on the matter.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I call on the Minister for Transport to come into the House and outline the plans he has to improve road safety. We highlighted in this House the roads that pose serious threat to the public on numerous occasions but no action was taken. There was a major underspend last year on those roads, many of which are in the BMW region.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his case adequately.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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We have highlighted that underspend in the House on many occasions.

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I support the call by Senator O'Toole for a debate on the increase in the levels of suicide. Such a debate should be held soon because we are coming up to the leaving certificate examinations when students will be under great pressure. It would be appropriate to examine the fundamental reasons for this increase in suicides and alert parents to the problems.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I too support Senator O'Toole's suggestion that we have a debate on the correlation between increased alcohol consumption and increased levels of suicide. That correlation is well known and all the moaning and groaning about any drop in the consumption of alcohol in pubs due to the smoking ban is fairly shabby because the ban is welcome.

Senator Norris and I frequently raise the issue of the Gulfstream jet that lands in Shannon. We have no idea what is on board that jet. In the United States, the CIA has been forced into admitting that it has permission to take people abroad on what is referred to as "extraordinary rendition". I do not know what that means but it does not sound very good. Apparently, these people are brought to countries such as Jordan, Egypt and Morocco for treatment of some sort that it is felt better to farm out from the United States.

When I raised this issue initially, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said that anyone who landed in Shannon was subject to the protection of the Constitution. If the Irish population thought that people were being brought through Shannon for any form of torture, they would be very angry. I am aware the Leader has tried to get more information on this issue but in general the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has sent her cuttings from newspapers, which we can all read.

I realise that the Leader has much to do but I would be extremely grateful if she could discover whether an attempt has been made to obtain information regarding the identities of those on board this jet which passes through Shannon quite frequently.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to comment on the Travers report which states that the Department of Health and Children has failed, at the highest levels, for almost 30 years to deal effectively with the issue of illegal nursing home charges.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We will be debating that matter after the Order of Business and it would be more appropriate if the Senator made her remarks at that time.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Michael Kelly, the former Secretary General, is only the sixth in line of a number of——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We will be debating the matter later. The Senator may raise those points at that time but she may not do so now. Does she have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, was delighted to appoint Mr. Kelly as chief executive of the Higher Education Authority.

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader will recall that yesterday I asked her about practices and procedures in Departments other than the Department of Health and Children. She informed me, I presume correctly, that she did not have the right to provide that information nor did she possess it. Was she satisfied with the practices and procedures that obtained in the Department during her tenure as Minister for Health?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business. We will be taking Committee and Remaining Stages of the Health (Amendment) Bill 2005 later today, at which time the Senator may raise that point. It is not fair to discuss any individual, even the Leader, on the Order of Business in this way. The Senator is out of order. Does he have a question on the Order of Business?

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I thought it was correct to ask——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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What the Senator thought is not relevant. He should confine himself to the Order of Business.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Who is going to interpret this? We are discussing practices and procedures.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The matter will be debated after the Order of Business.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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All I want is for the Leader to indicate whether she was informed about the Department's concerns.

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not in order. It is not the function of the Leader to comment on such matters.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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There has been a great deal of discussion recently about Aer Lingus's loss being BA's gain. Will the Leader indicate when the Government intends to appoint a permanent or new CEO to Aer Lingus? It is unfair to leave the airline rudderless, so to speak. When will the important matter of the second terminal at Dublin Airport be addressed? Will the Leader arrange a debate on these matters?

When will the Bill to give effect to the Boundary Commission's recommendations regarding Dáil constituencies be introduced? The Leader will be aware that her constituency of Westmeath is due to become Longford-Westmeath. Perhaps she will indicate when the Bill will be forthcoming.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am looking forward to that development.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Henry's call for a debate on the aircraft passing through Shannon. There has been a great deal of misinformation circulated about this matter and, in my opinion, it has come about as a result of sloppy journalism. Reports appear to suggest that there are all sorts of antics occurring at Shannon Airport and that various prisoners are being transported through it. The American authorities have responded to the Government in respect of this matter and have made it clear that no prisoners have been transported through Shannon. It would be a welcome development if the relevant Minister could come before the House to place the facts on the record in order that people will not continually state that there is a star chamber at Shannon.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I support Senator Dooley's request for a debate on this matter. He suggested that the newspaper reports are inaccurate and that the information provided came from dubious sources. The New York Times, The Washington Post, Newsweek, The Irish Times and the Irish Examiner have all carried stories relating to this matter.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Andrew Gilligan is the big authority on this issue.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I do not know what else the Senator wants of people reporting on this issue. I questioned the American ambassador on this subject and he informed me that the US Government has provided its Irish counterpart with a categoric assurance that no prisoners, in the condition that has been reported, were taken through Shannon Airport. He did not state, however, that this was not his Government's policy, nor did he indicate that the jet had not passed through Shannon in pursuit of the business in question. There is clear evidence, including the relevant logs and registration numbers, that these planes passed through Shannon——

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Of course they did.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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——on their way to kidnap people and bring them to third countries to be tortured. One of the methods of such torture is to use surfboards in the drowning of people until their lungs burst. This technique was perfected by the Gestapo in the Avenue Foch. Senator Dooley may be satisfied that Ireland is involved——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That matter is more appropriate——

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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——in that kind of disgraceful behaviour but I certainly am not.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator will not besmirch the name of Shannon Airport on an ongoing basis while I am a Member of the Seanad.

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Would the Leader be prepared to lay before the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána the evidence which has been assembled and which clearly constitutes a prima facie case for the involvement of this country in the commission of war crimes? There is an obligation on the police to examine this matter. I will certainly make available whatever information I possess. If the Leader, on behalf of Seanad Éireann and the people of Ireland, will lay this information before the Garda Commissioner and request that the matter be properly investigated, I would be extremely grateful.

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader ensure that the e-mail facility that has been put in place by the Department of Health and Children in respect of reimbursing people who were overcharged in publicly-funded nursing homes is in full working order? I have contacted the Department on a number of occasions in respect of representations I received and been told to submit the details of those representations by e-mail. Up to 6 p.m. yesterday, the facility to which I refer was not working. That is not acceptable.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator not holding seminars like every other member of his party?

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden should not generalise.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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For the second day in a row, I was struck by something Senator Ryan said. However, I am not quite as in agreement with him today as was the case yesterday. His comments about the activities of multinationals should be taken on board. For the Labour Party to be the voice of multinationals in the House is a new experience for everyone.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Labour)
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The Senator should sit down.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ross, without interruption.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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It is a point well taken. We should consider what multinationals think about a matter Senator Coghlan raised, namely, the fact that the chief executive of Aer Lingus has left these shores because he did not find the conditions in which he worked particularly welcoming or suitable for the enterprise culture.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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He has rejoined the Commonwealth.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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The individual in question took his decision for two reasons of which Senator Ryan should take note.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should confine himself to the Order of Business. There is no need to advise anyone about particular matters when making a contribution on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I was merely bringing it to the Senator's attention.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, it is difficult for me to hear what Senators are saying when other voices can be heard.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is correct. We must conduct our business in a more orderly fashion.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ross——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator White is out of order. She is interrupting Senator Ross.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ross interrupted me earlier.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Will Senators afford their colleagues the courtesy of being heard? The Leader must be able to hear what is being said by Members on the Order of Business.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I am sure Senator White will have the opportunity to address the House about Colombia on a suitable occasion.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Spot on.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ross is jealous of me.

(Interruptions).

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ross should not invite interruptions.

11:00 am

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I would not dream of doing so.

There are two important reasons for Willie Walsh's departure from Aer Lingus and the Minister for Transport should come before the House to discuss the matter. The first of these is the semi-State culture. Mr. Walsh could not work within this culture because it was not enterprising enough and, unfortunately, he left as a result for an equivalent but larger airline in the UK. We could well do with Mr. Walsh returning to Ireland.

Senator Ryan should listen to my second reason, as the multinationals look at it this way as well. Would they invest in Aer Lingus without Willie Walsh?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is seeking a debate on Aer Lingus. We will have a debate and the Senator's questions will be more appropriate then.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Would the multinationals invest in Aer Lingus if the Labour Party's friends in the trade unions decided who was on the board and who would be chief executive?

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to invite the relevant Minister to the House for a debate on child care costs. A report published today has stated that child care costs——

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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We had a debate yesterday.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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It is appropriate to have another debate, because there is a report in today's newspapers which, if I might address Senator White——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator will address the Chair and will not address any other Member of the House.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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There is a report on the issue in today's newspapers and another debate would be very appropriate.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to request that the Minister for Education and Science come into the House to discuss the legislation on special needs. It is clear that the best intentions of the Department to implement such legislation have fallen back. There is a failure on the part of someone but the responsibility must lay with the Minister who introduced the legislation. I mentioned an issue relating to this on two occasions this week. Apart from that particular situation, the delay in assessments across the country has continued. The appointment of personnel to carry out those assessments has failed to be implemented as promised. The series of initiatives promised by the Minister to have a proper special needs service have all failed. The evidence of that is the additional work forced on principals of national schools. They complain that despite the work they are carrying out to speed up the implementation of the special needs policy, it is only adding to the existing bureaucracy. I ask that the Minister come in to the House account for her effectiveness or failure to implement the legislation properly in the last six months.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I support the point made by Senator Brennan on dangerous roads. I ask the Leader to contact the Minister for Transport on this issue and on road safety in general. There are many foreign registered cars and trucks speeding past any type of road. They seem to show no respect for speed limits. When caught by the speed cameras, they do not take responsibility and do not pay fines. Not all of these vehicles are from Northern Ireland, some are from other EU countries but are registered here.

In many car auctions around Ireland, old cars are sold that appear in reasonable condition. However, there are no controls on them. They can be put on the roads as soon as they are bought and there is no check for insurance or tax. That matter must be addressed and I urge the Minister for Transport and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to take it in hand.

Photo of Francis O'BrienFrancis O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to address the issue of special needs, which was raised by Senator Burke. It is no reflection on the Minister, because we have one of the finest Ministers ever——

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Blame the Civil Service.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Or the Hanly report.

Photo of Francis O'BrienFrancis O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House. There are difficulties with regard to special needs.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We had a debate on special needs last night.

Photo of Francis O'BrienFrancis O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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There is a difficulty at primary and secondary level and I would like to have a debate on it.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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It was a debate on child care.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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They are related. I call on the Leader to reply.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Finucance, acting leader of the Opposition, asked why better estimates were not available on issues which were to be settled by the taxpayer. He wondered how the PAC report has concluded that an extra €700 million has to be paid for the redress scheme than was originally estimated. That is a fair point and I do not know why it arises. It is the same with roads and other issues. I suppose the under-estimate is built on a hope that is not realised.

Senator O'Toole referred to the correlation between the rise in suicides and the rise in alcohol consumption. It is clear why that is the case. Young minds and bodies are not able for the excessive consumption of alcohol. It is a good topic for debate and we will arrange it on resumption after the break. Senator Ryan spoke about the responsibility within Departments. He asked that the EU services directive and competition policy in general be addressed in this House. It would interesting if the EU Commissioner came before the House to debate that. A Commissioner has been here before.

Senator Brennan spoke about the 24 stretches of dangerous road in Ireland and the safety implications of such roads. Senator Bannon took up that issue and listed some of those roads. The county councils have received adequate funding for such roads and the county councillors should harass their executives to ensure that the funding is spent well. Senator Ormonde also called for a debate on suicide, particularly as the lead up to the leaving certificate is a very difficult time for young people.

Senator Henry wondered what was happening in terms of the Gulfstream jet that lands in Shannon and demanded more information on it. Senator White spoke about the Travers report, which will be debated after the Order of Business. Senator Coghlan——

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Tá mé anseo.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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He has been demoted to the back of the House. I will speak during the debate on the Travers report this morning. If the Senator is present, he will hear what happened in the nine weeks I served as Minister for Health before I was chucked out.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Such a lack of vision on the part of the then Taoiseach.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to continue, without interruption.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Coghlan also raised issues on Aer Lingus, the second terminal at Dublin Airport and the Boundary Commission. The Electoral (Amendment) Bill was published as a Dáil Bill last Tuesday. When it is passed by the Dáil, it will come before this House.

Senator Dooley spoke about the aircraft which passes through Shannon Airport and agreed with the need for a debate on the issue. In response to Senator Norris, I will not lay information before the Garda Commissioner on the issue he raised. I do not have any such information. However, we should have a debate on the whole issue, be it with the Minister for Transport or the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Senator Ryan raised an issue which will come up in connection with the Travers report. The original file has not turned up in the Department but copies of the documents in question have always been available on computer. That is recorded in the report. What is not there, however, is the letter that should have accompanied those documents. Senator John Paul Phelan referred to the e-mail facility at the Department of Health and Children. I will advise the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children about that to see if it is functioning.

Senator Ross mentioned multinationals and sought the attendance of the Minister for Transport in the House. I have already made that request. The Senator also spoke of the semi-State culture and the infusion of unions in the workings of multinationals. Companies have to be run by——

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Unions?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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——working people, who are entitled to their representational status.

Senator Feighan referred to child care but we had a good two-hour debate on child care yesterday.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister did not stay.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Even I would quail at asking a Minister to return to the House to debate that topic before a decent interval had elapsed.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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New information came to light this morning.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am aware of that but I cannot send for a Minister every time a new report is published.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Please allow the Leader to continue without interruption.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I noted the information in the newspaper this morning and thought it was very interesting. I have already mentioned it to Senator White and I am sure she will be reading it.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I have it with me.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Where?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order. The Leader without interruption.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ulick Burke sought a debate on the system of special needs services. I am aware of several cases where glitches have occurred in the system. It would be of benefit to have such a debate.

Senator Moylan referred to road safety, dangerous roads and people from other countries driving here. He also mentioned car auctions at which one may think one is getting a great bargain but once the car is driven away it pans out the next morning. That is a consumer issue, caveat emptor— the buyer should beware of whatever is purchased because dangers may lie therein.

Senator O'Brien agreed with Senator Ulick Burke about the necessity for a debate on special needs.

Order of Business agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 11.15 a.m. and resumed at 11.25 a.m.