Seanad debates
Wednesday, 9 March 2005
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. a1, a motion the subject matter of which is to be referred to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children for consideration, to be taken without debate. We are endeavouring to have a debate on this issue tomorrow. We have been in touch with the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children's office. The Tánaiste is before the committee currently and, therefore, a time for the debate cannot be specified. However, we expect the debate on the report to be taken tomorrow.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order, normally a referral motion is taken without debate on the basis that the subject matter will not be discussed in the House. Is the Leader saying it will be discussed in the House as well as being referred to the committee?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The matter will be discussed in the Dáil tomorrow between 1.30 p.m. and 3.30 p.m. and we are seeking time tomorrow for a similar debate on the report. No. a1 is a procedural matter that must be agreed. The joint committee is meeting currently and, because the Tánaiste is attending the meeting, an exact time for the debate could not be ascertained. We will be informed later in this regard. We sought a debate first thing this morning and we will have it. It is a matter of arranging a time.
No. 1 is the Health (Amendment) Bill 2005 — Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion on the Order of Business until 5 p.m., to resume at the conclusion of Private Members' business and conclude not later than 8.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; and No. 19, motion 14, will be taken between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I had intended to move an amendment to the Order of Business but I will not do so on the basis of the reassurances given by the Leader that the Travers report will be discussed tomorrow. Most of us have only had sight of the report over the past hour. It is an interesting report but I would like to study it in greater detail. One pertinent issue emerging from the report is the serious criticism of the Department of Health and Children, particularly at senior level. We will closely follow what happens in this regard. Another serious issue concerns the responsibilities of Ministers and Ministers of State and, in particular, special advisers, of whom there are many. They usually act as a conduit between Ministers and the Department. Special advisers are criticised in the report regarding whether they could have informed Ministers in greater detail about what was happening.
According to the account of the famous December 2003 meeting attended by three Ministers, all briefing documents were sent to them in advance and, therefore, it is remarkable and surprising that they should deny knowledge of the content of the meeting or that people left the meeting. However, we will debate this tomorrow and I will be interested in the Tánaiste's comments.
Anybody who read today's Irish Examiner could not have been but appalled by the arrogance of P. O'Neill and the IRA's statement, which is published on the front page. The IRA has sunk to an all-time low in the context of Northern Ireland issues by approaching the McCartney family and threatening to assassinate its own members and other individuals to resolve the current problems. They were going to set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner in the process. I wonder where we have been over the past two years in discussing the Good Friday Agreement, the implementation of which has gone on since 1998, to have such a statement emerge in early 2005. It is time people got real regarding the backdrop and undercurrent of republicanism masquerading as mafia activity. We cannot countenance that situation continuing and serious questions must be asked of the Sinn Féin leadership. Ultimately, people rely on them regarding the IRA. Let us get this peace process back on track.
I respect the fact that we have insisted on an end to criminality. If we wanted reassurance of its necessity, we see it in the context of this statement, which I read with horror and contempt. Any true person in the State would have to deplore the fact that anyone could make such a statement and hail himself or herself as a republican. The McCartney family have confronted the IRA and Sinn Féin in their natural territory up there, winning respect for the fact that, since the case emerged, much has come out regarding what goes on in the North of Ireland that we would not otherwise have known.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I made the point yesterday on the Order of Business that I felt the current arrangements in primary schools whereby untrained personnel have responsibility for the so-called "teaching" of children is another pot waiting to boil over on the Government. It could certainly lead to a class action on the part of parents seeking to question the Government ignoring the constitutional imperative requiring it to provide for free primary education. That must imply professional standards, something mentioned later in the Constitution. I say this because, if it takes me 17 years to convince the Government to do so, at least my concern will have been recorded time and time again. I respectfully ask the Leader to bring this formally to the attention of the Attorney General to reassure ourselves that this problem does not need a solution at this stage.
The Travers report that we will be discussing is also very topical today, since the person who seems to be accepting responsibility for long-term and systemic corporate failure, the Secretary General of the Department, is apparently leaving it. That is perfectly understandable; we have seen such situations in several places in recent years. However, it would be the height of cynicism, utterly unacceptable and impossible to explain in a democracy if that person were rewarded with some similar or promoted position anywhere else. I feel sadness for the person concerned, since I am sure he is very hard-working, but this matter needs closure and his entitlements should not be augmented. Leaving the Department should not be the gateway to some other similar or promoted position in the public service. I do not say that in any personal manner, but I would like to have it on the record.
I absolutely agree with Senator Finucane that the outrage that has greeted the Provisional IRA statement is perfectly understandable. However, I would also like to sound a note of caution. Whereas we are all of one mind in the Irish political landscape, North and South, in pubs and other places around Ireland, many people will say that shooting or getting rid of the perpetrators is the right way to deal with them. We have a great deal of education to carry out to explain to people that this is utterly unacceptable for reasons that affect every citizen of the State.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is crucially important to record the further comment of the McCartney family today that they sought justice rather than revenge. That is so articulately expressed that it puts in context the importance of justice in a democracy.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I appreciate that there is to be a debate tomorrow regarding the Department of Health and Children. However, can the Leader ask whoever is responsible — I am not sure if it is the Taoiseach — to ensure that every Department now checks that there are no files floating around advising it that current practices are unconstitutional or otherwise illegal? We can debate the specific issue tomorrow but the fundamental issue is about the quality of governance in the country and there has been a monumental failure to meet that quality. On the issue of political accountability, Mr. Travers, true to form of Ministers, could not find any evidence that conclusively proved anything. There is a series of pointers but we can talk about that tomorrow.
Some Members may be aware that last week, on what describes itself as a popular radio programme, although I am not sure many people listen to it——
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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That is not a popular radio programme.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot discuss the radio programme, whether popular or not. Senator Ryan, we cannot identify the programme to be fair.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I said something similar to what Senator Finucane has just said and the presenter of the programme said that was pomposity and a rant. I want to record that if it is pomposity to make it clear that killing other people is murder, that justification of the killing of other people is appallingly wrong and that sitting in a radio studio and allowing people to justify the murdering of other people is wrong, then I am pompous.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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If to make a strong and passionate speech about it is to rant, then I am quite happy to rant. We saw yesterday what I was talking about last Thursday night — people who have no morality, no politics, no understanding of justice or law and who have revealed themselves to be precisely what they are, namely, murderous thugs. Whether they are elected to Dáil Éireann or not, when they are killing people they are murderous thugs. They are not republicans and they serve no purpose other than to hold back progressive politics and republican politics in this State. The newspapers made it clear yesterday. We now know well what we all tried to avoid looking at for the past ten years, namely, that we have murderous thugs in our midst who must, once and for all, stop what they are doing, go away and retire and let those of us who believe in democracy get on with the job of democracy.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The House and the island as a whole, whether North or South, owes the McCartney family a considerable debt of gratitude because it would have been very easy for them to assent to the obscenity of the IRA's statement. One can readily appreciate the pressure they would come under within their own community. It is remarkable that they have resisted that pressure from beginning to end and for that reason they are to be applauded.
It is amazing that the IRA should decide that people should be shot for alleged crimes. We have to proclaim in these Houses the rule of law, both north and south of the Border. To think that the IRA might take out people unilaterally and shoot them is beyond belief but we should not be surprised about that. The surprise is that we are surprised because for 30 years they shot and bombed innocent people in the name of republicanism. That is not the republicanism with which any of the republicans in this House have anything in common, and we do proclaim ourselves to be republican in the best sense of the word. It is important that we speak about these matters. Senator O'Toole is correct. There are people in certain sections of this society who believe it is appropriate treatment for people who deal in drugs to take them out and shoot them in the knees. We have to say that is not appropriate treatment. What those people do is wrong but that is not the penalty they should pay.
With regard to the Travers report, we will deal with it in more detail later and I thank the Leader for the efforts she is making with respect to having statements on it because we need to consider it more carefully. We have not had time to go through the report in any detail but it is quite explicit and reaches firm conclusions. It contains 11 recommendations which must be taken on board. The report refers to long-term, systemic corporate failure within the Department so there are matters of administration and politics that need to be dealt with.
I agree with Senator O'Toole on the matter of people being accountable. People with grave responsibility, whether this be political or administrative in nature, must be held accountable. In the event that failures occur, accountability must apply. We will have an opportunity to discuss these matters in greater detail when the Travers report comes before the House.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the information the Leader gave to the House in respect of the debate on the Travers report being arranged for tomorrow. The report indicates that the Tánaiste was correct about the maladministration which existed in the Department for which she recently assumed responsibility. It also highlights the long-term, systemic corporate failure in that Department. In addition, it records that illegal practices took place and that the Secretary General, despite it having been agreed that he do so, failed to advise the Attorney General. Will the Leader, as the conduit between the House and the Government, provide an assurance in advance of tomorrow's welcome debate that none of the practices and procedures to which the report refers — which were so wrong and, in some instances, illegal — are in any way prevalent in other Departments?
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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In a week when the focus will be on Ireland and when Government representatives and colleagues from both Houses will be travelling to destinations across the globe, does the Leader agree that it would be opportune to have a debate on emigrant issues following the recess? It would be particularly apt to hold such a debate in light of the significant increase in funding the Government has provided in recent weeks which has been disbursed by DION to Irish organisations in the UK. The Leader is, like other Senators and me, a member of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and she will be aware that a delegation from that committee recently visited London and Birmingham to witness, at first hand, the issues with which Irish people there are faced. We may be enjoying the fruits of the Celtic tiger economy but there are matters relating to the Irish diaspora which remain to be dealt with.
It is a credit to the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, who implemented much of the task force report on emigration, which was debated in the House——
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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There has been a significant increase in the amount of that money, which is now of the order of €9 million.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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He did not provide the amount that was recommended.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Mooney, without interruption.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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If Senator Ryan was in contact with the Irish community in Britain to the same degree as I am, he would be aware that it has welcomed this increase and embraced it enthusiastically.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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That community would hardly reject an increase.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It has also publicly acknowledged the contribution the Government is making towards the issues facing emigrants in Britain. The point made by Senator Ryan is low in nature and he should read up on what is happening in the UK.
Will the Leader consider arranging a debate on this matter? It is important that this House, which is a forum for debates of this nature, should continue to highlight emigrant issues in order to ensure that those to whom we refer as the "forgotten people" will not be forgotten.
David Norris (Independent)
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I agree with colleagues who raised the subject of the IRA statement. That organisation could not possibly have given a clearer or more convincing illustration of its own innate criminality than it did in the statement. It was approached about one murder which was so brutal, vicious and cruel that people within its community compared it to the operations of the Shankill butchers some years ago and it responded by proposing three further murders. That is an astonishing approach. It is time people realised that, despite the kewpie doll appearance and DART accents of some of that party's recent candidates, a vote for Sinn Féin is a vote for kidnap, robbery, rape and murder. It is not appropriate that people in recent vox pops in the two by-election campaigns should state that Sinn Féin might be better able than other parties to obtain for them their council house, a television set or whatever. Such an approach should not be taken when dealing with hardened criminals and murderers.
I honour the McCartney sisters who, as other Members pointed out, have asked for one thing, namely, due process. That is the basic level at which everybody should operate. Something similar to what happened to Robert McCartney happened seven years ago to a Mr. Kearney, whose mother appealed for information about his killers. She received an apology from some of the Sinn Féin leaders, but nothing more was done about it. I will not recite all the murders carried out, but it is time to shout "Stop".
I am astonished to hear our national broadcasting station and see our newspapers refer without question to the 100th anniversary conference of Sinn Féin. If we accept that, we are saying that all the political ancestors of the parties in this House were the same as these people. That is a worrying thought.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I was absolutely taken aback by last night's IRA statement, which can only be described as surreal. Sinn Féin and the IRA were also linked 80 years ago in the same way they are now. The republican political leadership met in August 1924 and Deputy Seán McEntee said that although Sinn Féin claimed to be the de jure Government, he could not stand over the army, meaning the IRA, exercising powers of life and death unless it was in Government with the full mandate of the people. In response, Eamon de Valera said that that was absolutely his position as well. He believed the IRA could not have power of life and death over people, nor could it even have power over property in a situation where there was peace. If we had the same moral clarity from the republican political leadership today that came from Eamon de Valera and Seán McEntee in 1924, then we would be a great deal further forward.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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A health and safety audit has been carried out on a national basis in most general hospitals over the past two weeks. The main objective of this audit is to determine whether hospitals are in breach of health and safety guidelines. Can the Leader ask the Tánaiste on what basis these hospitals were selected? Why was Letterkenney General Hospital not selected? I have a sneaky suspicion that, as a result of overcrowding in the accident and emergency unit in the hospital, one Department would hold another Department in breach of the health and safety guidelines.
We are sometimes very critical of RTE on its programming of cultural events. There was a very good programme on RTE last Sunday on the culture of south Donegal fiddle playing and its connection with Scotland. However, it was broadcast at 9.30 a.m. RTE needs to get real with the timing of its programming. That would be a good programme for evening viewing.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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It must have been a religious experience.
Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I am tempted to say to Senator McHugh that an even better programme could be made about fiddling in south Armagh.
Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I want to express horror at the statement made by the IRA. These are people who have beaten a path to the European courts and have sought sworn inquiries on everything. They are also prepared to murder people without any sort of due process. It does point to the precedent which Senator Mansergh has so accurately drawn. That point of decision has come for today's Sinn Féin and their leaders should take it.
Can the Leader ask the Minister for Health and Children what steps are being taken to assess the risk in hospitals for the hospital bug? There has been strong activity on that in the North and I wonder whether it has been replicated here. I did not have time yesterday to raise the issue of children being taken into care. I do not wish to go into the details of a particular case. However, looking at the matter from a health economist's viewpoint, it would cost approximately €2,000 per week to put four children into care. It will make matters worse if they are split up. If, on the other hand, that family was given €2,000 per week it would sort out many of their problems.
3:00 pm
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday's IRA statement has sent shock waves through the entire community, as other Members have already said. The IRA's claim to be involved in the peace process appears to be very negative following the most recent statement. Murder is murder, yet the IRA's answer to crime in Northern Ireland is to commit more murder. The IRA's claim to have offered to kill the three people who were involved in the murder of Robert McCartney is shameful and disgusting. It has sickened the community. It is not that long ago since a former colleague of ours, Senator Billy Fox, was murdered. It is time to tighten up security in this State. It is necessary to do so and it will have to happen soon, rather than dealing with those criminals.
I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to attend the House for a debate on housing. What does the Minister, Deputy Roche, plan to do to eliminate poor quality housing in many rural and urban areas?
We should also discuss the threat to the disabled person's grant scheme. A number of local authorities are considering the introduction of a means test for that scheme. That is a dreadful proposal because it will hit the most vulnerable in our society. The disabled person's grant and other schemes for the elderly and disabled should not be subject to means tests.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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We have been stunned by yesterday's announcement from P. O'Neill. Today's reaction is a reminder of how we must value our democracy, although we do not do so nearly enough. We must do so, however, having heard those words and the threats that were made in the IRA statement. Given that we have not always valued our democracy enough, we should remember what occurred today in Egypt where the Government prevented a new newspaper from being published because it supported an opposition candidate. Those of us who criticised and condemned the war in Iraq should recognise that some signs of democracy are beginning to appear in the Middle East. We value our democracy, so we should encourage those signs of democracy elsewhere, be they in Palestine, Libya, Lebanon, Egypt or Afghanistan.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Five Senators are offering but only four minutes remain for the Order of Business, in accordance with Standing Orders. I ask Senators to be brief. I will not be able to take any further contributions.
Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I agree with the call from Senator Mooney for a debate on emigration. Last week, it was mentioned that there is a strong possibility of progress being made on the visa situation facing illegal Irish immigrants in the United States. The Oireachtas should be seen to be proactive in that regard.
I agree with everything that has been said by my colleagues on the Northern Ireland question. The IRA statement is shocking, chilling and totally out of touch with the vast majority of people, North and South. The Leader should arrange for a substantive debate on Northern Ireland at an early date. Over the years, a degree of caution has been exercised in such debates due to fears that people may say the wrong things. Sometimes, however, as a result of our silence on matters north of the Border, including the issues facing the Nationalist community there, we allowed a vacuum to be created which was filled by the wilder men and women. The constitutional parties in this House, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Labour Party and the Progressive Democrats are republican and Nationalist but above all they have a sense of justice and responsibility. We must reclaim the debate and ensure that every citizen of Northern Ireland, whether loyalist, Unionist, Nationalist, Catholic or dissenter, knows that he or she will be properly looked after by the democratic politics of the democratic parties on this island. We must take responsibility and not allow the wild men of Sinn Féin to be in charge of policy in the Northern debate.
Shane Ross (Independent)
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I do not know why we cannot try these people for war crimes. Perhaps the Leader can shed some light on this issue. They claim to be fighting a war, have indulged themselves in ethnic cleansing, are taking on the State and are taking the law into their hands to murder people at will. They also look for prisoner of war status and it seems there is a good case for referring such people to the same sort of justice applied to others.
I wholeheartedly agree with Senator Ryan's point. If people are given a fairly free, although not unchallenged, run to talk about their attempts at murdering people in the national media and others are interrupted and mocked for denouncing this sort of violence, our society has reached a stage of corruption of which we are not aware. There is a real danger that we are beginning to accept the ethos and language of violence. The IRA cleverly demonstrated this last night when it shocked us into realising that we are now beginning to accept the language of murder without batting an eyelid. This is a salutary lesson for all of us in this House, one about which we are united. There is a creeping language of murder and violence which is not acceptable. If Senator Ryan is to be challenged while others are not, we should look again not only at the behaviour of the media but of the national broadcasting station.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point adequately.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I agree wholeheartedly with the comments made by Senator Ross and others who have referred to yesterday's IRA statement.
I thank the Leader for her efforts to try to ensure we have a debate on the Travers report tomorrow. We have seen the first casualty today but the contents of the report are very revealing. If there is to be any fairness, there must be political casualties in regard to what has happened as well as departmental casualties.
In advance of the discussion of financial matters in this House in the next few weeks, I wish to raise the issue of rollover relief which was abolished by the Government in a budget two or three years ago. This is particularly relevant in the context of the roads which we all know need to be built throughout the country under the national development plan. This relief would have provided some solace for the landowners affected and, in that context, I urge the Department of Finance to review the decision it took on this issue two years ago.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I was also shocked by last night's IRA statement in which it stated that it had offered to kill the killers of Robert McCartney. People's reaction was to ask from where the statement was coming. Despite various statements and hot air and the McCartney family's visit to Dublin, the IRA has still failed to produce a single witness statement from any of the people involved. We should focus on this issue because we want and expect due process.
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to address why the national conference centre proposed for Dublin for the past ten years is still in a stalemate situation? We will lose over €1 billion worth of tourism and conference business from all over the world for as long as this is delayed. The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism has reneged on two dates since January. Will he decide a date on which the international conference centre will be proposed? I ask him to make a speedy decision.
Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I support the comments of Senator Maurice Hayes in regard to the cost of taking children into care instead of spending that money on providing relief to the family at home. This is in light of recent events which we do not want to examine. It is time for a debate in the House on the issue of children at risk because it has been brought to my notice, not just because of recent events, that many children are at risk in their homes.
The relevant services are unable to cope with the level of work that is required due to the lack of resources. One must be surprised at the speed with which the services moved this week when, at the same time, we know children are at risk and neglected in Dublin city and throughout the country. It would be opportune if the Minister would come to the House to outline the level of service available and, more importantly, to highlight the number of children at risk who are not being catered for.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Finucane, the acting leader of the Opposition, referred to the Travers report but stated he would wait until tomorrow to comment definitely on it. He also referred to the IRA statement from the infamous P. O'Neill. The Senator set the tone for the mini-debate we have had. The statement was breathtaking in its chilling obscenity. One could hardly believe what one was reading or that the wording was correct. The McCartney family has brought home to us this stark realisation.
Senator O'Toole again raised the issue of untrained teachers after stating yesterday that a class action on the matter by parents was possible. The Senator asked me to bring the issue to the attention of the Attorney General. I will bring it to the attention of whoever is the proper legal authority. The Senator also requested that while he understood the entitlements of a particular person leaving the Department of Health and Children, there would be no reward for him in another position.
Senator O'Toole also raised a point that was brought home strongly to me. He stated that pub talk would lead some to say: "Is that not what they deserve? They deserve to be shot." The Senator is correct that this kind of comment can be easily said and assimilated. However, in this case, it is a bad example.
I felt proud last week that Senator Ryan was a Member of the House and that I shared membership with him. I heard almost the whole debate to which he referred, although not the final part when the Senator was cut off. However, Senator Dardis has affirmed that part to me. I heard most of the debate because I try to be in my car when there is something on the radio I can listen to. The Senator did us all proud. A newspaper reprinted the text of the debate at the weekend. Was it The Sunday Tribune?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It was one of the weekend newspapers. It was something else to try to hold one's own in that atmosphere. I was amazed that somebody would seek to direct the tone of the debate in that way. Well done to the Senator.
Senator Ryan referred to the quality of governance and stated that killing other people is murder, which it is, and that the killers are not republicans but murderous thugs. Senator Dardis rightly said we all owe a debt of gratitude to the McCartney family. He said that we should more often proclaim ourselves republicans in the best sense of the word, with which all of us in this House would agree. The Senator then spoke of the Travers report and the corporate failure. Hopefully we will have a chance to deal with that tomorrow.
Senator Coghlan asked if I can confirm whether the departmental maladministration is replicated elsewhere. I cannot do so as I have neither the right nor the information.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I referred to practices and procedures.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am not in charge of those issues in the various Departments.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I thought that was an unfair request by Senator Coghlan but I did not intervene.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. As I read it, the Travers report made recommendations which if implemented would mean that maladministration would not be repeated. Senator Mooney called for a debate on emigrants and asked if that would be suitable when we return after the recess. Senator Norris said there was clear evidence of IRA criminality. If there was any doubt about that, the IRA laid it out, which was interesting. Due process is what the McCartney family is seeking. Senator Norris questioned, as we all do, the "100th anniversary" celebrated by Sinn Féin. What Senator Mansergh said was good. Former Deputy Seán McEntee and Eamon de Valera outlined with great clarity what they would not stand over. We need that same moral clarity now.
Senator McHugh asked why particular hospitals were singled out for the health and safety review. I do not know, but we can raise the matter with the Department of Health and Children. He also mentioned the excellent RTE programme broadcast at 9.30 a.m. about fiddle playing in Donegal. Senator Maurice Hayes noted the murderous IRA statement. He also asked in which hospitals the MRSA bug was prevalent. He referred to the huge cost of taking children into care, an issue discussed in this House yesterday. There may be more to that particular case than we know.
Senator Bannon rightly said that the IRA statement sent shock waves through the community and that we need to tighten up security in this State. He also called for a debate on housing and for clarity on the disabled person's grant. I did not hear that the grant might be means tested. I dealt with two applications last week and that issue did not arise.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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In certain counties, Kildare for example, where a by-election is taking place, the grants are means tested.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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The Senator should not believe everything he hears on the doorsteps.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to reply without interruption, please.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It would be rather silly to introduce a means test in the course of a by-election.
Senator Quinn said we do not treasure or talk up enough the democracy we all share. He noted that in Egypt, where the opposition candidate is daring to challenge the leader, who has ruled for so long, a newspaper which would have supported the opposition candidate was suppressed. Thankfully that is the sort of situation we know little of in this country.
Senator Bradford explained to me that he had to leave the Chamber but asked for a debate on visas. He said that during all the debates we have had in this House regarding Northern Ireland we have been tiptoeing around matters because we do not want to upset anyone who might be taking a forward step or upset what might be happening. Perhaps we should now stop tiptoeing and describe things as they are.
Senator Ross said that certain IRA members should be tried for war crimes as they have been involved in so-called ethnic cleansing, have taken on the State and have taken the law into their own hands. Senator Ross then referred to the truncated radio debate in which Senator Ryan was involved.
Senator Phelan noted that the Travers report is very revealing and asked for a review of rollover relief. Senator Feighan referred to the IRA and due process. He spoke of the conference centre mooted on many occasions and asked for a statement on it by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism.
Senator Terry noted the cost of taking children into care and said that many children are at risk in their own homes. I have no doubt that they are. It is a broad debate and perhaps we might ask the Minister for Health and Children to attend the House to discuss the matter.