Seanad debates
Wednesday, 15 December 2004
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Order of Business is No. 1, a motion referred to the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources which has concluded its discussions. The motion concerns a change in the fees for licences issued or renewed on or after 1 January 2005, to be taken without debate; No. 2, a motion to approve an order under the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004, Commission of Investigation (Dublin and Monaghan Bombings) Order 2005, which enables the establishment of a commission of investigation to investigate and make a report on specific matters considered by the Government to be of significant public concern relative to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 1974, to be taken without debate; No. 3, Garda Síochána Bill 2004 — Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude no later than 2 p.m.; No. 4, Road Traffic Bill 2004 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 3 p.m. and to conclude no later than 4 p.m.; No. 5, Social Welfare Bill 2004 — Second Stage, to be taken at 4 p.m. until 5 p.m., to resume on the conclusion of No. 23, motion 16, and to conclude no later than 9.15 p.m. on which spokespersons may speak for 15 minutes and other Senators ten minutes and on which the Minister will be called to reply no later than five minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; No. 23, motion No. 16, to be taken from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. There will be a sos between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m.
It is proposed to take No. 2 without debate. However, if the House wishes to debate this issue in January we will do so. Perhaps the leaders of groups will inform me of their intent in this regard.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It would be wise to take up the Leader's offer regarding No. 2. A debate on this issue in January will be useful.
Any time a proposal is made on this side of the House in regard to a retrospective amendment, we are informed by the Attorney General that the House cannot introduce legislation of that type. Now we see that the Government will attempt to pass emergency legislation through the Dáil and Seanad by the end of this week. The Government has now accepted that it was legally unsound to take pension and other payments from pensioners in long-stay residential homes or beds. Why has it taken three years for the Government to own up to this? It was informed as far back as 2002 by at least one health board that, following the provision of medical cards to those over 70 years of age, this situation was legally unsound.
It is not appropriate that legislation can be rushed through in this fashion, so close to the Christmas recess. In effect, people have been denied the rights that were available to them over the past number of years. This is not the way to do business.
The Tánaiste is at least trying to correct the situation. However, her predecessor was aware of the situation when he negotiated with the IMO regarding the medical card scheme for over 70s as far back as 2001. He stated he would do it first and then held negotiations with the IMO. It was the worst possible deal ever negotiated between a Minister and a representative organisation. We must take this matter slowly. Mistakes were made in 2001 and we do not want to compound the situation by making more mistakes.
Senator Ó Murchú spoke earlier this week about the problem of the proliferation of knives and the knife culture that exists in our society. An incident occurred in this city last night where a nine year old stabbed a 14 year old. Following Senator Ó Murchú's call earlier this week we need a debate early in the new session on the problem of the knife culture in urban and rural Ireland. We must take measures to take these dangerous weapons out of people's hands quickly. While legislation exists in this area, not enough is being done.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As Senator Quinn rightly said yesterday, it is an offence to carry a knife and that continues to be the law. Previously I stated here that under the Road Traffic Act it is now an offence not to carry one's driving licence when driving a car. Nonetheless we are advised by the authorities that it is unsafe to keep a driving licence in the car as the licence or car might be stolen. Therefore, we must carry it on our person. The licence is made from a type of material that does not stand the test of time. I previously suggested to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that we should have driving licences available in a plastic credit card size form, as available in some countries in the world. This allows the licence to be a form of identification.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This matter was raised yesterday during discussion of the Road Traffic Bill.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It was raised yesterday in the context of a Bill and the Minister of State said it could not be done as the Government was trying to get European co-operation to do this. Members will be aware that it took 20 years to get agreement on a common European passport and the colour alone took years. Of course a European standard licence should be agreed. However, in the meantime we should have a credit card size driving licence here. If we then need to change it whenever Europe gets its act together, we should do that also.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If memory serves me right, the Senator mentioned all these points yesterday.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I did not respond to the Minister of State when he seemed to give the impression that it could not be done because he was having meetings in Europe, which might go on for ten years. However, I accept your ruling, a Chathaoirligh. I ask that my request be put to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform with a view to getting his thoughts on the matter.
We have had much discussion in the past week on the AIB report. In the course of the week we have heard that NIB has been sold at a handsome profit of almost €1 billion. During the summer holidays last year when people were probably more interested in buckets and spades than what was going on in the world of finance, a report was published showing systematic tax evasion aided and abetted by senior officials in NIB. This matter has never been discussed, addressed or considered by the Oireachtas. If this bank is sold as no doubt will happen, it will be sold at a profit of €1 billion, which is fair enough, but it will be sold to a new owner which will have no responsibility for the systematic tax evasion ripping off the taxpayer and the system, which occurred over the years. This should be discussed as a matter of urgency. I will be raising the matter at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service and I would like to hear whether the Minister for Finance would like to discuss it.
I apologise that I will miss the end of the Order of Business, as I am required to make an input at another meeting.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is now six or eight months since I resigned from the committee on Seanad reform because I felt the Taoiseach was treating the Seanad as a little instrument of political patronage. Last week's revelations have confirmed the validity of my view that Seanad Éireann is an adjunct to the Taoiseach's policies, to be manipulated as suits him.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is no basis whatsoever for that assertion.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator resigned over the issue relating to Senator O'Toole.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
While the Leader can say whatever she wishes about the matter, I resigned for the reasons I have given.
Throughout the courts system this week and last week, siblings and parents will have pleaded with judges to understand the tragedies of their siblings' and children's lives as they are charged with various offences, outlining the sad history of deprivation and neglect that characterises those involved. Some three quarters of our prison population suffer from a psychiatric illness. Yesterday we heard a plea that a person should not go to prison on the basis of having "fallen very far". While I do not want to interfere with the Judiciary in any way, I do not believe the other hundreds, if not thousands, of people who made pleas before various judges got the same sort of hearing and post-Christmas postponement; because they were poor the law operated differently for them.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We cannot discuss the particular case.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am not doing so. However, it appears to me that our judicial system operates on a basis that discriminates between those who are rich and those who are poor.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want to make a point on the issue raised by Senator O'Toole. The bank, which is taking over NIB, has twice the capitalisation of either of the two big Irish banks and generates about the same level of profits, which speaks volumes about the degree to which we are being ripped off. The Competition Authority has just issued a report, which did no more than confirm what we all knew, namely that Irish consumers are being ripped off by the effective collusion of the Irish banks. We did not need the Competition Authority to tell us that; we needed it to do something about it, but it has singularly failed.
I am glad the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is proposing to do something about the status of all those Irish children who until recently he was threatening to deport. I welcome his proposals. However, I do not understand why the parents of those children are still being denied the right to work. The argument used to be that it would be a factor to draw further illegal immigration and further abuse of the asylum system. This cannot be the case. Why will they not be allowed to work? Some of these people have been here for years and some have children close to secondary school at this stage. I did a back-of-an-envelope calculation and based on the Minister's figures those families not allowed to work are probably costing the State between €100 million and €150 million per year. Why does the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the one hand highlight the cost of supporting asylum seekers and on the other hand refuse to allow a group of people in a unique situation to work? I can only suspect that it is because work is the way in which people——
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
—— integrate into society. If we keep them out of work, we can keep them out of sight and away from public sympathy.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I echo the comments of Senator Brian Hayes in calling for a debate on the knife culture. I wanted to clarify a point I made yesterday morning. While I was aware that legislation exists here, legislation on the carrying of knives also exists in Britain. However, it is now considered necessary to open up the debate and see the knife in the same context as a gun, as it is a weapon with which people are being killed. People do not carry knives unless they intend to use them. Young people now discuss among themselves the effectiveness of one knife over another and on what part of the body a wound should be inflicted. This is exceptionally serious. Yesterday morning I specifically referred to sentencing, on which we should have a debate. For instance, would the child involved in that stabbing incident have even though of it unless it had been part of a culture to which that child was exposed?
I take up the point made by Senator Ryan on Seanad reform, which was discussed here in recent days. Some time before any discussion of a peace process, we talked about trying to ensure that at some stage if the peace process moved forward we would have the opportunity to give representation to those from the North of Ireland. I do not believe this has anything to do with a personal agenda of the Taoiseach. However, it is symbolic of the progress we have made in this country that we could even think about having that kind of unity of minds, unity of purpose and unity of debate. I would not like that to be sullied in any way and it is important that we keep it centre stage. On the day every political view in Northern Ireland is represented in this House, we will have truly copperfastened the peace process. I look forward to that day.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I agree with the comments of Senator Brian Hayes with regard to the Health (Amendment)(No. 2) Bill. It is disgraceful that pensioners will not be given refunds and that the Government plans to introduce legislation which will enable it to charge patients during Christmas week. The spirit of Scrooge is alive and well. Perhaps instead of travelling to Inchydoney last September, the Fianna Fáil Party should have gone to Lough Derg to serve its penance.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator should go to the Skelligs Rock.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What the Government is doing to OAPs is disgraceful.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What the Fianna Fáil Party or the Fine Gael Party do is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Government has stated that it is caring and sharing but its actions indicate the contrary. It is disgraceful that the Government is not giving OAPs refunds and intends to charge them during Christmas week. Consideration must also be given to the issue of patients who tried to obtain entry to public nursing homes but who could not do so and were obliged to enter private nursing homes. The Minister has not even made a statement on that matter. I look forward to the debate on Friday but I must state that what is happening is disgraceful.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support Senator O'Toole's call for a review on the legislation relating to driving licences, particularly in terms of the legal necessity to carry one's licence at all times. The latter poses difficulties for people in rural areas, especially farmers who may switch from driving a car to a tractor to a jeep all in the course of one day. While it is fine for most of us to leave our driving licences sitting on the dashboard or in the glove compartment, the necessity to have one's licence with one at all times poses problems for farmers and people who work in various industries and are obliged to switch from driving one vehicle to another. Consideration is required in respect of this matter.
Will the Leader consider arranging a debate early in the new year on the issue of computer games. Reference has been made to the knife culture and the aggression associated with young people. It would be enlightening to have a debate on the background to these computer games. I understand that many of them involve aggression, winning and using different tools such as knives, guns and other sorts of weaponry. The subject matter of these games has not been addressed because they do not come in a video format but rather use computer generated animation. Such games have a significant effect on young people and they feed into the culture of aggression and the use of weapons. This matter should be addressed.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I was rather amused to discover that, following its acquisition of National Irish Bank, shares in Danske Bank fell by 4%.
We have had representatives from Northern Ireland in Seanad Éireann on previous occasions. It is a question of how these people will be introduced, elected or appointed. A letter to The Irish Times this morning points out that the Alliance Party made a strong submission opposing the appointment of Northern Ireland representatives to the Seanad. We must, therefore, listen to all voices from Northern Ireland.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is what the letter said.
I am seeking a debate on the metro in light of the headline in today's newspapers to the effect that "Metro delay 'will affect' targets for M50 upgrade". The Joint Committee on Transport unanimously supported the idea of a metro, as did the professional report carried out in respect of this matter. If the delay in the metro is going to cause significant problems in terms of the necessary upgrading of the M50 we should engage in a debate on it.
I wish to propose a change to the Order of Business, namely, that we take No. 23, motion 11, which states:
That Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to honour the commitment clearly given by An Taoiseach at the United Nations in 2002 that Ireland would reach the target of 0.7% of GDP for overseas development aid by 2007.
If the Leader is able to give an undertaking to debate this matter on Friday, I will withdraw the proposed change to the Order of Business. This is a serious matter and it was again brought to the attention of the public this morning by a distinguished former Member of this House and former President of Ireland, Mary Robinson, who was present at the United Nations in New York when this solemn pledge and commitment was given by the Taoiseach. We should discuss this matter.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When does Senator Norris propose that we take that item?
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Immediately after the Order of Business today.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I agree with some of the comments made in respect of the emergency legislation on nursing homes. What happened was wrong but I must inform members of the Opposition that it was equally wrong when they were in Government. At least the current Administration is intent on correcting the position. It is somewhat irresponsible, cheap and low to make a political issue out of this matter.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Order, please. Legislation is coming forward on this issue and the Senator can make those points in the debate thereon.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I look forward to the debate on the legislation on Friday.
Comments were made earlier about the Judiciary, etc. In my view the House should debate family law and children's courts, which are part of the changing society in which we live. The comments about the Judiciary to which I refer were dangerous and irresponsible. The Judiciary should not be undermined by Members of the House and accused of having double standards.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I stated earlier, when the comments were made, that we must recognise the separation of powers.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I concur with the remarks of Senators Brian Hayes and Ó Murchú regarding the unfortunate spread of the knife culture. Perhaps, following a debate on the issue, the House could make a unanimous call for a review of the legislation relating to knives and ancillary items. We might do something to empower school authorities in respect of this matter.
The House has often discussed planning and I am loth to seek another debate on it. We have an open and transparent planning system of which, in the main, we are proud. However, people are irked by it and councillors, not least those in County Kerry, are concerned about the fact that in 10% of cases An Bord Pleanála overturns the recommendations of its inspectors. In the interests of full transparency, will the Leader indicate if we could——
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yes. We should have access to the reasoning employed by An Bord Pleanála in overturning 10% of recommendations from its inspectors.
Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
At the weekend I was made aware of the tragic case of a 15 year old boy who was admitted to one of the major psychiatric hospitals in Dublin but who, sadly and unfortunately, ran away and who, within hours, was found dead. I am aware that there is a very young audience in the Public Gallery and I hate to tell such a gruelling tale. None of the psychiatric hospitals in Dublin will take young mentally ill adolescents as a result of what happened in the case to which I refer. Will the Leader arrange a debate on this matter following the Christmas recess because it is a tragedy for those who are suffering and for their parents and carers? The Leader of the Opposition, Senator Brian Hayes, referred to a knife attack by a nine year old on a 14 year old, so it is obvious that major problems exist. People are talking about this problem but little is being done to address it.
11:00 am
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A recent report identified Irish teenagers, as a group, as having the highest intake of alcohol across the European Union. We have debated this matter previously and attempted to come up with solutions. It is frightening to think that teenagers are drinking to this sort of excess. The Garda, parents of teenagers and health service providers will spend Christmas worrying about this alarming problem. There are, however, solutions to it. I have raised a possible solution in this House of which the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, is aware. The North West Alcohol Forum is ready to be piloted and to come up with proactive solutions to under age drinking. This body is made up of many State agencies and service providers. Its key element is that it has representatives from the Donegal Youth Council, made up of 16 to 24 year olds, who will decide themselves how to move forward. Will the Government fund the North West Alcohol Forum's five year pilot scheme? It offers a proactive solution to the problem of under age drinking. This side of the House has offered solutions to problems for the past 20 years and any time the Government is in trouble, we get the blame.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support Senator Brian Hayes in his call for a debate in January on No. 2. Will the Leader let us know if she can bring forward the fundamental recommendation of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Law Reform that there be a resolution of this House and the Dáil calling on the British Parliament to support the establishment of a tribunal of inquiry in Northern Ireland to get to the truth about the alleged collusion involving forces of the British Government in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings? This significant recommendation should be acted upon.
I agree with Senator Norris's call for a debate on overseas development aid. That debate will illustrate the good news story. Aid has increased from €150 million to €600 million since 1997.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have not met our commitment or our targets. The Taoiseach has welshed on his pledge to the United Nations at a time when our finances are in much better shape than they were when he made the commitment.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are one of the leading countries, we are top of the league in terms of contributions. We are short of the 0.7% of GDP target but it is still a good news story.
I agree with Senator Norris that the M50 should be debated in this House. That debate should include the serious delays at the toll bridge that is so lucrative for NTR and the need to change that.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I second Senator Norris's amendment to the Order of Business which undoubtedly will also be supported by Senator Jim Walsh. Senators Ryan and Minihan have raised the issue of judges on which I am seeking a debate.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is such a thing as a separation of powers between the Judiciary and the Oireachtas and we cannot make charges against judges.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am asking the Leader if we can have a debate on political appointees to the Bench.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is important that judicial decisions be questioned by this House.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have no role in the appointment of judges.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They are political appointees, the Government is political.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The appointment of judges is a constitutional function of the Government.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am well aware of that but it is our job to debate those appointments and it is not forbidden to debate them in this House.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is not our job to debate judicial appointments.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Then I shall table a motion on this and I do not expect the Chair to make a ruling forbidding the discussion of political appointments and outrageous decisions by judges.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator must not anticipate my rulings.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Leader give time for a discussion of political appointments to the Judiciary?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have no power over that, it is a constitutional function.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Leader invite the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children into the House to debate type two diabetes? Recent reports indicate that the incidence of this condition is on the increase, affecting up to 4% of the population. Those who have it are often unaware and its secondary effects can include blindness and gangrene of the lower limbs. It is closely associated with obesity.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is totally unacceptable that up to 20,000 people have had to pay in the region of €6,500 per annum to be maintained in long-stay care places. They had to sell their family homes and now the Tánaiste and the Government is offering them a sop of €2,000.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Legislation on this is being introduced and the Senator can make those points then, they are not in order on the Order of Business.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will do that because it is important that we do not dismiss this as Senator Minihan did.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The sort of argument he offered is the reason so many elderly people have been officially robbed.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Ulick Burke was in power when it was happening.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Kitt was a member of a health board and both he and the chairperson stood by the decision over the years.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have listened to many Senators raise the culture of knives and under age drinking among teenagers. The role of the parents has not been touched on in the debate. We would not be talking about these issues if the parents took control of and responsibility for their offspring. That is where we are lacking. If we are to have a debate on the way of life for young people, part of the discussion should focus on penalties for parents who do not behave responsibly and look after their children between 12 and 15 years of age. That is the adolescent stage when these things happen if there is no supervision.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The legislation on nursing homes and payments for long-term care is being introduced on the advice of the Attorney General by the Government and the Tánaiste. It will be introduced in the Dáil tomorrow and we are making arrangements to deal with it on Friday afternoon. I take Senator Browne's point that it should not be rushed and I have no intention of rushing it. If we do not finish it on Friday, we will come back next week.
For 50 years, people in long-term care places have made a contribution towards the cost of shelter and maintenance. That was provided for under 1954 regulations amended in 1965 and under the Health Act 1970. The regulations were copperfastened in 1976. Those are the facts so there is no point in anyone on any side claiming to be whiter than white.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That was done under a Fine Gael-Labour Party Government.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Corish, who was Minister for Health in 1976, was a fine Minister. Senator Brian Hayes spoke about the emergency legislation, about which many people have strong feelings. Time will be provided to debate the matter on Friday afternoon and evening. I can give a commitment that the House will sit next week if extra time is needed to debate the issue. Senator Browne's comments indicate that he would like such an arrangement.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My difficulty is not with its timing but with its content.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is right that we should consider the imposition of charges on old age pensioners in Christmas week.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Seanad has sat in Christmas week on many occasions.
Terry LeydenMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I do not know why Senator Browne mentioned that charges will be imposed during Christmas week, given that it has always been the same as any other week in terms of charging.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The leader of Fine Gael acknowledged this morning that there has always been an element of contribution from those who can afford it.
Senator Brian Hayes also spoke about the issue of knives, which as he said was raised yesterday by Senator Ó Murchú. He argued that there is a need for a debate on the matter and I hope it can be held early in the new year. I agree with Senator Hayes that we need to act slowly on the nursing home issue.
Senator O'Toole mentioned that one has to carry one's driving licence when driving a car. He called on me to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform whether credit card size driving licences can be introduced, ahead of the inauguration of the common European driving licence. He also spoke about the AIB report, in the context of the sale of the NIB.
Senator Ryan raised the issue of judicial judgments, which I do not want to discuss in this House, which is a legislative forum. He also cited his retrospective reason for leaving the committee on Seanad reform, but he knows well that the reason he has mentioned today is not the reason he left.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Ryan knows that what he has said is not true. I wrote to him after he left the committee.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have been very reasonable. The Leader can tell me I am mistaken, but she cannot tell me I know that what I have said is not true. With all due respect, I do not know that it is not true. I do not want to be pushed into saying something to the Leader this week that both of us will regret at a later stage.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If she tells me that I am mistaken, I will sit back and accept it. I do not know that it is not true.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will say with great alacrity that the Senator is mistaken.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Leader is entitled to her opinion in that regard.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am quite satisfied to be able to say that.
Senator Ó Murchú said that knives should be seen in the same light as guns. He also spoke about the possibility of Northern representatives in the Seanad. I agree with him that we would have a unity of purpose here.
Senator Browne discussed the Health (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill. I assure him that the House will sit for as long as necessary.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator said that he did not want it to be rushed.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If Senator Browne wishes to sit next week, we will sit next week.
Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will come to the House on Christmas Day if I have to.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I did not hear Senators on the Government side saying "hear, hear".
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Dooley spoke about the need for a new type of driving licence. I did not see the "Prime Time" report about computer games, although I believe that what was shown was quite terrifying.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There was a good "Prime Time" report about judges.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The programme reported last night on aggression and those who encourage aggression.
Senator Norris proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, as he is entitled to do. The proposal, which was seconded by Senator Ross, is that we take No. 23, motion 11, after the Order of Business. Senator Norris mentioned that the Joint Committee on Transport has unanimously supported the proposed metro, which seems likely to be delayed. He also referred to a submission made by the Alliance Party, which made a powerful point to the committee on Seanad reform. I absolutely refute the suggestion that the Alliance Party does not favour Northern representation in the Seanad. A perusal of the party's letter in The Irish Times this morning makes it that quite clear. The subtext of the letter is that other parties should be considered as well as the main parties. As I distinctly recall, that argument was the burden of the party's submission.
I strongly agree with Senator Minihan's comments about the separation of powers. We are not here to talk about judges. Can I say, in response to Senator Norris, or was it Senator Ross——
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Coghlan spoke about planning matters. Senator Feeney discussed the sad outcome of the case of a 15 year old boy, for whom a suitable place could not be found.
Senator McHugh expressed concern about the high intake of alcohol among Irish teenagers. He mentioned the North West Alcohol Forum, which is seeking funding for a five-year pilot project. The forum includes members of the Donegal Youth Council. Perhaps I can meet the Senator after the Order of Business to discuss a possible way forward in that regard.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Jim Walsh called for a debate on the collusion issue in January, or whenever we come back. I will be glad to facilitate such a discussion.
Senator Ross, who has a bad cold——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Chair is of the opinion that Senator Ross's cold is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Ross seconded Senator Norris's amendment.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Ross referred to political appointments. The appointments in question are Government appointments.
Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Government consists of politicians.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Under legislation introduced by the former Minister, Nora Owen,——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They are presidential appointments and are the function of the President.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
——the Judicial Appointments Board makes recommendations to the Government, which makes the appointments.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They have their fingers in the jam — that is the problem.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I would like to make it clear that they are not political appointments.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Glynn said that a debate is needed on type two diabetes, which is a health matter. Senator Ulick Burke discussed the forthcoming legislation on elderly people, which we will provide time to debate.
Senator Ormonde spoke about the role of parents, a matter she has raised previously. She is right to argue that people have responsibilities after they beget children. They are responsible for rearing their children, for example. I agree that there is a need to emphasise the role of parents in rearing children.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On a point of clarification, Article 35.1 of the Constitution states, "The judges of the Supreme Court, the High Court and all other Courts established in pursuance of Article 34 hereof shall be appointed by the President." I hope that clears up the matter.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That refers to the final appointment.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Norris has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, "That No. 23, motion 11, be taken before No. 1." Is the amendment being pressed?
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will pursue the amendment because the Leader did not address it. She said that I had moved an amendment, but she did not say that she would accept it. She did not say that she would consider my suggestion of taking the motion on Friday.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In the absence of any commitments, it is.
The Dail Divided:
For the motion: 20 (Paul Bradford, Fergal Browne, Paddy Burke, Ulick Burke, Paul Coghlan, Noel Coonan, Maurice Cummins, Michael Finucane, Brian Hayes, Michael McCarthy, Derek McDowell, Joe McHugh, David Norris, Joe O'Toole, John Paul Phelan, Feargal Quinn, Shane Ross, Brendan Ryan, Sheila Terry, Joanna Tuffy)
Against the motion: 27 (Eddie Bohan, Cyprian Brady, Michael Brennan, Peter Callanan, Margaret Cox, Brendan Daly, John Dardis, Timmy Dooley, Geraldine Feeney, Liam Fitzgerald, Camillus Glynn, John Gerard Hanafin, Brendan Kenneally, Michael Kitt, Terry Leyden, Don Lydon, Martin Mansergh, John Minihan, Pat Moylan, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Mary O'Rourke, Ann Ormonde, Kieran Phelan, Eamon Scanlon, Jim Walsh, Mary White, Diarmuid Wilson)
Tellers: Tá, Senators Norris and Ross; Níl, Senators Minihan and Moylan.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will the Leader confirm that the Taoiseach will be in the House this evening?