Seanad debates
Wednesday, 8 December 2004
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Garda Síochána Bill 2004 — Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business until 1 p.m; No. 2, Dormant Accounts (Amendment) Bill 2004 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 2 p.m. and to conclude not later than 5 p.m.; No. 21, motion No. 16, to be taken from 5 p.m. until 7 p.m.; and No. 3, Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill 2004 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 21 and to conclude not later than 9.30 p.m. There will be a sos between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Despite our differences on the Order of Business yesterday in regard to another matter, the House does not blame the Leader for the fiasco of the Christmas lights yesterday. It was not her fault but clearly that of the other House.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think that is relevant to the Order of Business.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Cathaoirleach might be correct about that.
Later today, the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister will set out the position concerning the current phase of the talks in Northern Ireland. I welcome the fact that both Governments intend to set out all the position papers and the full nature of the deal which was to be decided upon and agreed by all the parties. At this late stage it looks like the deal will not be done although something may happen between now and 2.30 p.m. We will have to wait to see. However, it is important that all the documentation surrounding this deal is published in full so that the people of Northern Ireland see for themselves the work which has gone on behind the scenes in recent months between both Governments and the parties.
The people of Northern Ireland deserve better. We were told there could be no agreement between the centre parties and, after the recent Assembly elections, we were told that the two parties on the extremes would do the deal. However, we have found again that our efforts are being frustrated by the intransigence of one side or the other. At this stage, we need to concentrate on the people of Northern Ireland who have put up with this stop-start mechanism for the past ten years or so. We must continue to work with the Northern Ireland parties. We must redouble our efforts and ensure that future peace and prosperity is delivered to the people of Northern Ireland who have suffered more than anyone else on this island for far too long.
Some of today's newspaper editorials have engaged in browbeating the workers at An Post. People might find this strange for a person in my position, but I believe that the An Post workers are correct in the action they are taking today.
11:00 am
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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They have not been well served by good management in the very recent past. If ever there was an example of botched semi-State management, it is that of An Post. The same group of workers has not received one cent of a national pay award which everyone else in the public service has and they are expected to put up with it. There is a case for a complete change of emphasis and new management at An Post.
The workers at An Post are right to take their day of action today. I hope it is only today, but they need to make the point clear, to the Government in particular, that the management in the most recent past has not served the workers and this semi-State industry well. Until the management and the Government wake up to that fact, we will have further disruption.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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All I can say to Senator Brian Hayes is, "Welcome aboard, brother".
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I am not sure how the Labour Party can deal with this but there certainly is very little space on the left for that party.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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There is a scamper for the space between the socialist Taoiseach and the comradely Fine Gael Party. On a serious note, the Leader will recall that last week she and I had a discussion very much along the lines of what Senator Brian Hayes has just said. I made the case here last week. The fact is that these workers have not received their normal pay increases. I will not go into that except to state that I support the view that management has a case to answer. It is unfortunate it has finished up in a strike.
My last point may be the final issue on which Senator Brian Hayes might come on board. The House will note that since we signed off on the benchmarking deal there has not been one strike day lost in the Civil Service or public service where this was paid. In supporting it here two years ago, I stated that was the prize. That was what we were attempting to do. These workers deserve their increase and they should get it.
Yesterday I asked the Leader that whatever else happened in the North today, we would have full publication of the issues. It is positive that it seems this is the direction in which we are headed; at least we will see how far the negotiations moved. That is crucial. It is crucial for the Irish and British Governments that we all see their painstaking work and that we would mark the progress that has been made so there can be no drawing back from it. That is significant. It will also give us a clear indication of how difficult it is.
I cannot help thinking, however, that the SDLP and the Official Unionist Party must be looking quite wryly at the events of today. The electorate made its choices. Democracy must operate. However downcast or disappointed we might be about what happens today, it is our duty, as politicians and leaders in society, to measure the progress that has been made in negotiations.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am beginning to be overwhelmed by the rash of conversions in recent weeks.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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We are talking about one strike. The Senator should not go too far.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is due to the trade unions, not the Labour Party.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I support Senator Brian Hayes's view. I find it astonishing that we have not had a serious effort in this country to address questions of the quality of management of semi-State bodies that do not seem to be able to do their job. There seems to be a particular rush to judgment always that it must be the workers of a company who are not doing their job. In fact, there are serious questions about management.
There is another dispute going on which has major implications; I refer to Irish Ferries. I would like to know the weekly wages of the agency workers to be brought in to replace Irish workers on the ferry to France. In all of the talk about international competitiveness, global markets, etc., the simple question is how much will they be paid? If people in Ireland knew what these agency workers were to be paid for an ordinary 40 hour week, I suspect they would have a much clearer view of which side they were on in this dispute as well because I believe we are getting very close to getting very cheap labour in to do these jobs. I have no problem with genuine international competitiveness but there are ways of getting around the European labour law involved here that are far more significant than simply a dispute between a shipping line and a trade union.
Like everybody else, I still harbour a hope that something dramatic might happen today. I would say this to people who seem to believe that humiliation is what is being asked of them — all of us can get very sensitive. Things were done in the name of the people of Ireland that humiliated us all on many occasions and people who claimed to represent us humiliated us. To quote Ian Paisley for the first time in my political career, we bit our lips and restrained ourselves in recent years because we thought there was a greater prize. Let us remember this, that what has been achieved now is an unequivocal position where if the IRA would only once and for all and forever go away, there is a guarantee that whoever wins elections in Northern Ireland, there will be power-sharing institutions.
The message is clear regarding the one illegal obstacle. People are entitled to their political views. Nobody in this country is entitled to have a private army. There is a fundamental difference. I just wish people would at this stage accept that if they would only go away and stop, we all would forget all that was done. At the end of it all, that is not a humiliation. It is a recognition of reality.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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We all are disappointed by the signals coming from the parties in Northern Ireland and, like Senator Ryan, we cling faintly to the hope that wiser heads may prevail. I share the view that it is important for the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister to set out the document on the progress made and the various settlements advanced.
It would be important for us to have a little time to reflect on all of these issues. Given the importance of the issue, I would recommend to the Leader that, despite the difficulties involved, she provide a short amount of time next week. Perhaps there would be statements from the leaders of the groups but it would be preferable to have wider-ranging statements on the matter.
The Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister are to be congratulated on their patience and on the amount of work they have done. It is not generally realised how much of their own political capital and time they have invested in these issues. That is a tribute to their dedication to trying to find a settlement and that needs to be acknowledged.
It would be easy at this stage to indulge in the blame game and I am trying hard not to do that, but it is difficult not to do so. I do not want to reduce everything to superficialities but if, looking back at the history books in 50 years time, people read that there was no settlement because of a failure to provide photographs, how could that be explained? That brings a new definition to the word "humiliation". As Senator Ryan correctly stated, far more humiliating things have done in the name of both loyalism and republicanism over 30 years. It is important that members of the public see what is going on and that they would be able to express their own judgment on these matters.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Leader may tell me that we had the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the House last night but he was here on a tight agenda. I ask her to invite him back to this House to debate the need for legislation to ensure that taxation on waste be levied at the point of entry rather than the point of disposal. This would enable society to realistically face up to its national and international obligations on waste management. In the town study yesterday, some towns came out in a poor light on the issue of tidiness and cleanliness. The same could be said of some rural areas, culs-de-sac, lay-bys, etc, where people with filthy habits dump illegally. This matter needs to be tackled and there is an obligation on the Minister to do something about it. The House should hold a debate on the findings of the Government's consultancy study on the issue of local government finance. I understand this study will come on stream fairly soon. The Government invited submissions from local authorities, the managers' association and local authority representatives earlier this year. I understand a document about the reintroduction of domestic water rates was recently leaked from the Department. I am fearful that the Government may be on the brink of imposing further stealth taxes on the hard-pressed taxpayers of this country.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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David Dunseith is one of the most respected political commentators in Northern Ireland and was interviewed on RTE a few days ago. He made the point that for the first time there had been fewer telephone calls from listeners to his daily radio programme about the peace process initiative than on previous occasions. I hope complacency has not set in and that there will be an acknowledgement of how far we have come in the peace process since the IRA ceasefire of 1994. As other speakers have said, we are now hanging on to a thread.
Modest man that he is, our friend and colleague, Senator Maurice Hayes, would not be the first to ask anybody to read his opinion column in this morning's Irish Independent but it should be required reading and should be sent to the participants in the Northern Ireland peace process. In the context of the photograph, the one aspect of his column which stood out was that there does not seem to have been any recognition of technological advancement in this digital age where a photograph could be taken and its provenance questioned. This highlights the absurdity of insisting on a photograph. I caution that until we hear this afternoon the detail of what was on offer, we must withhold comment. I share the view of my colleague, Senator Dardis, and ask the Leader to consider a short debate before Christmas on this issue, simply because it is important that it is kept in the public mind.
Like many Members on all sides of the House, I support the concept of the European Union in its pursuit of peace, prosperity and human rights. I was appalled to learn that a move has been initiated by France and Germany to end the embargo on selling arms to China, despite its appalling human rights record. I ask the Leader to convey what I believe to be the abhorrence of most people in this country who think of these things, that at a time when the Irish people are being asked to endorse the constitutional treaty and many of the positive aspects of the European Union — which I and many others constantly highlight — this initiative, if it is to be proceeded with, underlines the view that perhaps there is a military agenda at the heart of the European Union.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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As many Senators are offering, I ask Senators to be as brief as possible in their contributions.
David Norris (Independent)
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I strongly support Senator Mooney's view on European moves on the embargo on arms to China. It is very important this be said, especially in light of that country's treatment of Tibet. We should try to encourage the Chinese authorities to engage in positive negotiations with the Dalai Lama and his representatives.
With regard to the North of Ireland, I also think it timely for the House to have a debate. Sadly, as I said in the House last week, the minute I heard that phrase from Ian Paisley about humiliation and the wearing of sackcloth and ashes, I knew he had thrown the whole prize away for the sake of a rhetorical, triumphalist flourish. I do not even think it is particularly Christian because the triumph in other people's humiliation is not Christian. It is not even biblical; the wearing of sackcloth and ashes in the case of people like Job and many others in the Old Testament was something done by them to express their grief. It was never something imposed by another party. I have no problem with a photograph and I do not see what is the difficulty. The IRA has weaselled its way around all the time. If it is going to do it, why does it object to confirming it in this way? I do not understand it. I do not trust the IRA one inch and there is no reason we should. It has lied many times and the Irish people are entitled to confirmation.
It may be unrealistic to require it in this session but early in the next session I ask that the House debates the banking system. It is horrifying to discover that in the cascade of scandals, AIB was covering up between January and April of this year. It has not learned and it will never learn unless it is severely and strictly taught.
I ask for a debate on Iraq. I note another appeal in today's newspaper from senior diplomatic sources in the United Kingdom requiring that there should be an account of the civilian death toll. This has not been done and it is an appalling cover-up. I am most worried in the last week by the frightening and terrible silence coming from Falluja. We need to know what is going on there.
Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I thank Senator Mooney for his promotional remarks. Anything I have to say will be found at greater length tomorrow. I would welcome a debate on Northern Ireland. It would be particularly appropriate given the tone that is being set by Members of the House. This is not a time for recriminations and for throwing things about. It is a time to recognise the pressures that are on people on all sides and how difficult it is for them. They are playing to several audiences, including a very critical one of their own. A photograph of itself is of really no importance but it is what it symbolises and this can be humiliating and triumphalist.
I recognise the work done by the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister and also by the civil servants on both sides who have done so much of the fetching and carrying. I welcome a meeting but I hope that people on all sides outside this House can restrain their language over the next couple of weeks.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator Brian Hayes and the other speakers who asked for a debate on the North and on An Post. I am pleased that both Governments will today publish details of the deal which is on offer and which hopefully will be done today, but if not today, on some other day. I suggest that they get on with it. I support Senator Dardis's request that the Leader arrange a debate on this matter next week.
I ask the Leader to arrange a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the retail planning guidelines which are in the news because of IKEA. The Government postponed a decision yesterday and it was wise to do so. The giant nature of this proposal is causing concern in a country of our size and population and for the potential adverse impact on the roads network. Even if the M50 was increased to eight lanes, it still would not suffice. This is a serious matter for the country in general, for towns, for villages and for rural Ireland. A debate on the matter would be helpful. It would be good for the Minister and the Government to hear the views of the Members on all sides before any final decision is taken.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I support the position of An Post workers. Last Monday evening I and a number of my elected colleagues from north Westmeath met the communications' workers. A significant void exists between what is being printed in the newspapers by An Post and the situation on the ground. It is my understanding that An Post will be meeting the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. I exhort the Members of this House who are members of that committee to ask An Post representatives probing questions about their treatment of the workers, which is scandalous.
I ask the Leader to arrange a debate in the new year on men's health. There is strong evidence to suggest that the incidence of prostate cancer is on the increase. Given that the PSA test is not conclusive but merely a method of screening, I would appreciate if an early debate could be arranged. Prostate cancer is only one of the matters affecting men's health and I would like an early debate to tease out these matters and see what can be done to address them.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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When is a commitment not a commitment? This is the basis on which an individual wrote to the Government Information Service during the period when Government commitments were rolled back or not fulfilled. The response he received stated that Government commitments have no legal standing. I appeal to the Leader, as the Government representative in the House, to clarify for future reference and the benefit of democracy, if not the operation of the House, when one can expect the Government to live up to a commitment?
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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The peace process was never about humiliation, a word which should never have been introduced to the debate. Everyone who has contributed positively to the peace process has much of which to be proud. Equally, to take a longer perspective, there is much of which everybody may need to repent.
Speaking of repentance, I repent of having been misled in the House and having misled Senator Brian Hayes. Having checked the Supreme Court and High Court judgments regarding the release of the prisoners in question, I can find no basis for the claim that they were accepted by the courts as qualifying prisoners. I wish to correct the record in that regard.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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The House should have a debate on An Post. Having been postponed for six months, it is high time it took place. As regards the issue of Irish Ferries, our link with France is important. The fact that a rival firm, Brittany Ferries, is being subsidised leaves us with two choices, either to challenge the subsidy or, alternatively, subsidise Irish Ferries.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I join my colleagues in seeking a debate on the strike in An Post. The Government could do more for the An Post network, given that it can intervene and provide subsidies to Irish Rail. It is a disgrace that staff have not received pay increases. I understand the British Government spends more than €300 million to guarantee the survival of rural post offices. More could be done to secure the future of the rural post office network here.
I support the calls for a debate on Northern Ireland. We are entering a crucial stage, with much work done over the years and a great deal of choreography and sequencing under way. I recall the famous statement by the British Prime Minister that the hand of history was on his shoulder. Every two-bit player now wants the hand of history to touch his or her shoulder. I am sick and tired of watching politicians going in and out of Departments and travelling to London and back. They should make a decision and do a deal because the public wants and needs one. While I appreciate what has been done behind the scenes, the game has gone on for too long. I hope for a positive outcome today because I am becoming sick and tired of all the choreography, as is the public. They should do the deal and forget about it.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, ask the Leader to arrange a debate on An Post. It appears turnover in the SDS side of the business will significantly exceed the forecast made by management. It seems the decision regarding SDS has been made, irrespective of the company's results and the commitments given to workers which the company was honour bound to keep and has not delivered. A serious question mark hangs over the conduct of management of An Post in this case.
I seek a debate on the North where the issue of humiliation has a special resonance, having been part of the problem since efforts were made to keep down even the civil rights movement. If one community believes it is being humiliated, surely those who produced the technical detail involved in the d'Hondt voting mechanism and provided such considerable resources to support it could find a formula to reach a satisfactory outcome to what appears to be a simple problem. If the approach is based solely on humiliation, the republican and Nationalist side could request apologies for the treatment of the civil rights movement and the manner in which Dr. Paisley denigrated the religion of which I am part. No such apology has been forthcoming.
My medieval history lecturer in University College, Cork, once said three things never change. I will not mention the first two because they refer to other countries but the third was the wars in Ireland. It would be dreadfully sad if that were to continue to be the case in this century. While the guns are silent, there does not appear to be much peace.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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Some of the sentiments expressed this morning on the issue of Northern Ireland attracted my attention. They include, for example, that there are times when we should bite our lips, that we should not engage in the blame game and that we should occasionally restrain our language. All these statements apply in the current circumstances in Northern Ireland.
These sentiments also apply during the heat of a strike, which is not the time to engage in megaphone diplomacy or megaphone negotiations. This is the wrong time to apportion blame, take sides or sharpen rhetoric, particularly with regard to the two strikes mentioned. My firm position is that one must not give publicity to one side or the other at certain times. I have been reluctant, therefore, over the years to draw publicity to those seeking attention. Yesterday, however, in an item intended as a joke, which was reported in today's issue of the Irish Independent, a radio station referred to the death of Pope John Paul II.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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If it was a joke, it was outrageously distasteful and should not be accepted. There should be an outcry about this sort of behaviour. If it was a mistake, an apology should have issued afterwards. I cannot believe the way in which the nation is changing when someone is allowed to make a joke of that nature. If it had been made about Nelson Mandela or the Dalai Lama, there would have been an outcry, whereas the Pope appears to be fair game.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The matter should be referred to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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As Leader, I am delighted at the tone of the ad hoc debate which has developed this morning with regard to Northern Ireland.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted the Leader used the term "ad hoc".
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The restraint shown and language used are helpful. I am pleased we will receive the relevant documentation this afternoon. Small incremental steps have been taken which I am sure will move us forward on the perilous path to peace. While each of them may appear small, taken together they constitute a giant step. I hope this is what will emerge.
I understand Senator Feighan's comments. As a young person, he wants everything to happen immediately.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The problems date back centuries so we cannot wave a wand in Northern Ireland. It has been a welcome debate. I pay tribute, in particular, to the Taoiseach and Prime Minister Tony Blair for the time and effort they have expended and the clever civil servants who have been drafting and redrafting day and night since this module of talks commenced. They have invested considerable effort and much of their personal time in the process. Senator Brian Hayes welcomed the decision to set out the position papers. It will be useful to see the incremental steps taken.
The Senator also referred to An Post. As I pointed out to him last week, every trade dispute has two sides and any one who berates one side is wrong. Senator Brian Hayes said the workers should get their pay, with which we all agree, and those in management should look at themselves. He used the word "botched" with regard to management.
Yesterday, Senator O'Toole asked that the documentation and processes commenced be laid out so we could judge progress and ensure those steps would be retained and built into the process. The main protagonist wanted one last dip into the wider political waters to get affirmation. It will have that chance. Senator O'Toole also pointed out that talks on Sustaining Progress are about avoiding industrial relations fiascos, and this has been honoured in general. However, the workers at An Post have not received their increases under the programme.
Senator Ryan questioned the quality of management in An Post and Irish Ferries. He asked what agency workers will be paid and referred to cheap labour. On the issue of Northern Ireland, he is right to say the word "humiliation" should not be used.
Senator Dardis echoed the need for a debate on Northern Ireland next week. I mentioned it hurriedly and tentatively to the Taoiseach. I did not get a chance to have a wider discussion with him, but I will send a letter to him. We should try to put aside an hour next week for such a debate.
Senator Bannon asked for a debate on waste and the future of local government. Senator Mooney hoped the situation in Northern Ireland would not become complacent. The greatest test of democracy is that people are elected and then govern. That is what devolution is about. He recommended we read Senator Maurice Hayes's articles in the Irish Independent and we will do so. He also spoke of the breaking of the European Union's embargo, as spearheaded by France and Germany. If they are to break the embargo on the selling of arms to China, which has a dreadful human rights record, I agree with his concern and will speak to the Minister of Foreign Affairs about the matter.
On the issue of Northern Ireland, Senator Norris does not understand the need for photographs.
David Norris (Independent)
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I do understand that. However, I do not understand the IRA's reticence.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. The Senator has views on both sides. He also asked for a debate on the banking system. A debate is opening up on the issue of civilian debt in Iraq. There is an open letter on that issue today in The Times, signed by many eminent people.
Senator Maurice Hayes was also taken by the tone which has been set in the debate on the North and praised the Taoiseach, the Prime Minister and the Civil Service.
Senator Coghlan wants a debate on the North and also on retail planning guidelines, which I think is of huge consequence. If the IKEA store is built in Ballymun, traffic on the M50 will be one issue. However, there is also an issue as to how it will affect retail business around the country.
Senator Glynn spoke of the position of An Post workers. We have all been visited by representatives of the Communications Workers' Union. Indeed, they visited me last Saturday. Senator Glynn also requested a debate on men's health, in particular the issue of prostate cancer. That would be useful and we will endeavour to have such a debate in the new year.
Senator McCarthy asked when a Government commitment is an actual commitment. Greater minds than mine must answer that.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It can take years to figure out that question.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is undoubtedly Senator Brian Hayes's day. He championed the An Post workers and Senator Mansergh has corrected the record of the House with regard to comments he made.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Leader should not forget the Christmas tree.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Mansergh spoke strongly about the issue of subsidisation. If Brittany Ferries are subsidised, two roads are open to us. We can either take their case to the European Court of Justice or be subsidised ourselves.
With regard to the Northern Ireland talks, Senator Feighan said people are tired of choreography and that the parties concerned should hurry up and get on with it. I had a few words earlier with the Senator on the matter.
Senator Hanafin has consistently asked for a debate on An Post. He was the first to raise the issue in this House. He also called for a debate on Northern Ireland, and remembered details of medieval history. GK Chesterton wrote that the Irish "...for all their wars are merry and all their songs are sad."
Senator Quinn called for restraint with regard to Northern Ireland. He referred to the "joke" about the death of the Pope. Anybody who would engage in such behaviour must be sick.