Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)

The problems date back centuries so we cannot wave a wand in Northern Ireland. It has been a welcome debate. I pay tribute, in particular, to the Taoiseach and Prime Minister Tony Blair for the time and effort they have expended and the clever civil servants who have been drafting and redrafting day and night since this module of talks commenced. They have invested considerable effort and much of their personal time in the process. Senator Brian Hayes welcomed the decision to set out the position papers. It will be useful to see the incremental steps taken.

The Senator also referred to An Post. As I pointed out to him last week, every trade dispute has two sides and any one who berates one side is wrong. Senator Brian Hayes said the workers should get their pay, with which we all agree, and those in management should look at themselves. He used the word "botched" with regard to management.

Yesterday, Senator O'Toole asked that the documentation and processes commenced be laid out so we could judge progress and ensure those steps would be retained and built into the process. The main protagonist wanted one last dip into the wider political waters to get affirmation. It will have that chance. Senator O'Toole also pointed out that talks on Sustaining Progress are about avoiding industrial relations fiascos, and this has been honoured in general. However, the workers at An Post have not received their increases under the programme.

Senator Ryan questioned the quality of management in An Post and Irish Ferries. He asked what agency workers will be paid and referred to cheap labour. On the issue of Northern Ireland, he is right to say the word "humiliation" should not be used.

Senator Dardis echoed the need for a debate on Northern Ireland next week. I mentioned it hurriedly and tentatively to the Taoiseach. I did not get a chance to have a wider discussion with him, but I will send a letter to him. We should try to put aside an hour next week for such a debate.

Senator Bannon asked for a debate on waste and the future of local government. Senator Mooney hoped the situation in Northern Ireland would not become complacent. The greatest test of democracy is that people are elected and then govern. That is what devolution is about. He recommended we read Senator Maurice Hayes's articles in the Irish Independent and we will do so. He also spoke of the breaking of the European Union's embargo, as spearheaded by France and Germany. If they are to break the embargo on the selling of arms to China, which has a dreadful human rights record, I agree with his concern and will speak to the Minister of Foreign Affairs about the matter.

On the issue of Northern Ireland, Senator Norris does not understand the need for photographs.